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jmbupp
04-20-2010, 04:41 AM
I got yelled at today for this; but as a Ret Pally I starting using Hand of Reckoning when mobs and bosses get down to very little health. I do this because as long as I don't have threat from the mob/boss it does more damage than any other ability a paladin has and it does not trigger the gcd nor does it share a cd with any other ability. It's basically a free 2623 Holy Strike. Obviously there are some drawbacks if you use it too soon you could die from stealing aggro but in my observations this has been successful for me about 98% of the time, the other 2% I pop Divine Protection and that keeps me alive long enough for the boss to die without hurting my DPS.
My questions are, why do people think this is a bad idea and why aren't more ret pallies doing this?

Liar
04-20-2010, 04:47 AM
How is popping HoP not "hurting your DPS"? You sacrifice being able to do any offensive moves for a 2.6k HoR?

jmbupp
04-20-2010, 04:52 AM
Sorry meant divine protection not HoP Corrected the post

Vindicatar
04-20-2010, 06:23 AM
waitwut? ur using hand of reckoning on mobs for free damage? ur taunting mobs off the tank as dps for a bit of damage?

you sir, is what is wrong with this game and i hope i never EVER get grouped with u. i would abuse the hell out of a dps that taunted mobs off me while i am tanking.

sorry if u get offended by this but u really need to read some tooltips and learn how to play ur class properly.

jmbupp
04-20-2010, 07:14 AM
First of all I'm not offended, I knew people would say negative things about this, I want to hear everyone's opinions, good or bad.

Having said that, it's not like this is in the middle of my rotation and I'm stealing aggro in the middle of a fight for a full 3 seconds during every fight.

And this isn't a "bit" of damage, this scales so much with your AP that it easily becomes you're most damaging spell in a pally's arsenal eg. I was hitting for an average of 3200 damage on the Heroic dummies with it, for simplicity lets say you continuously kill mobs every 8 sec (the HoR cd) and you hit HoR while the mob has < 6000hp left, that's +400 dps and any strike that's on cd at the time (since this doesn't trigger any other cd there should be something) will finish them off before they even have a chance to hit you.

Also I don't know why a tank would care if I steal aggro for the last 1/2 second of a fight. This hasn't been that hard to time in any instance I've ran, most of the time the mob literally turns around and falls before he even gets a hit off on me, maybe one hit every now and then, (like I said this does backfire as I have died from it once when I used it way too early).

Jakhammer
04-20-2010, 07:20 AM
As a rule of thumb, DPS should NEVER use any taunt mechanics - no matter if they do damage or not. A dead DPS does ZERO DPS - remember that.

If you were in my group? Enjoy staring at the floor for the rest of the instance.

*There are some exceptions to this rule - for instance, (I was a DPS) one of our tanks went down during an ICC run on Festergut last night, and the other tank already had 8 stacks of bloat. Boss was at ~8%, so I switched to Frost, popped IBF and taunted. I took 3 stacks of bloat before dying, the other tank took one more and then the boss was dead. NOTE: This is an isolated incident, and as a DPS you should not try this without lengthy practice as a tank.

bling581
04-20-2010, 07:23 AM
Why aren't more Ret Paladins doing this? Because it's bad. It's one thing to taunt a 5 man boss (still bad) but if you taunted a raid boss the consequences might be severe. Any boss that cleaves could kill a lot of your raid members and some boss fights require precise boss positioning. The extra small amount of damage isn't worth it in the end, and if you're using it during the very last seconds of a boss what does the extra damage matter anyway except to pad your meters more?

Jakhammer
04-20-2010, 07:24 AM
Also I don't know why a tank would care if I steal aggro for the last 1/2 second of a fight.

....like I said this does backfire as I have died from it once when I used it way too early.

This is why a tank cares. Also, a healer would care because he feels obligated to do his job and heal your number-boosting-ass. Padding DPS figures at the cost of pissing people off is not quality play. Find a better way to boost your numbers. Just because a taunt deals damage does not mean it's a rotation mechanic.

Oblivion
04-20-2010, 07:25 AM
I do it on some trash during my 25's and everyone has a good time with it, but we also run with a fury warrior who will equip a shield, taunt, pop shield block and then spam revenge, too. The damage is nice, but frankly it's more fun just as a change of pace. If one of us dies, everyone has a good laugh about it.

Personally, I'd never use it on a boss fight, though. I suppose as long as pallywall is up you take out some of the risk involved. But keep in mind a couple things when you're doing this on boss fights.

If you're using it at the last 2secs of the fight or what have you, unless it's a near wipe; this boss is essentially dead. So it comes down to a couple simple questions. Is using HoR during the end of a fight in which by all accounts, you've already won, serving any purpose aside from giving you threat? Is there really a need to pad your DPS at that point by using it? And how does the rest of your raid feel about it?

If the rest of your raid is just fine with your use of it, good on you. If not, I'd likely stop for the reasons I mentioned above. If you're actually taunting with the boss nearly dead in an attempt to push more DPS, I think essentially at that point it's pretty much trash DPS and beyond having a good time, I don't see why it's necessary to taunt a nearly dead boss for what would probably amount to the same DPS gain you'd get had you gotten nice RNG on an extra crit or two throughout the fight. And if it is nearly a wipe or you're pushing an enrage timer, you'd be better served DPSing until the enrage and then popping divine shield, imo.

Maggotbrain
04-20-2010, 07:26 AM
Is there any case in a heroic where 400 DPS is that important?

I see that it can be a fun exercise to work out that you can increase your DPS slightly by taunting at a certain time. If you are playing with a tank you know and they are okay with it then go ahead.

But for a random tank you should never do it. They don't want DPS doing surprising things and aren't likely to want to have a lengthy discussion about how you gain 400 DPS by doing it.

jmbupp
04-20-2010, 07:27 AM
Ok I should clarify I would never do this during a raid where I could get hit once and die, that would be stupid and it would also be way too hard to time as the health of the bosses there are huge and the fight is so lengthy that the additional dps gained from this becomes minuscule.

Gehn
04-20-2010, 07:28 AM
Do it with your guild. Never w/ a pug.

My rogue buddy likes to Trix our guild leader to try and kill him. That is fun stuff.

Martie
04-20-2010, 07:35 AM
Well, it's really simple why people don't do it, jmbupp. Either it's a really stupid thing to do (stresses your healers, annoys your tanks and/or gets you killed,) or it won't make any damn difference.
If a mob is under 6k health, he might as well be dead in any group situation - the mob has a second or two to live anyway.

jmbupp
04-20-2010, 07:45 AM
I see your point on the over kill aspect of it, after reading that it doesn't really make sense to do it especially during boss fights. That's why I asked, to learn. I did have another thought though; on trash mobs that can be CCed if you macro this in with Hammer of Justice, the Taunt comes off after 3 secs while the stun lasts 6 effectively giving you a single target holy wrath that can be used on more than just undead. What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Fetzie
04-20-2010, 08:23 AM
HoR (and every other taunt) places you at the top of the aggro list, if you then generate threat faster than anyone else the mob will go for you when the stun wears off (and some mobs have a DR on stuns.

A situation when you can use HoR without any risk is Lich King when dpsing valkyrie (normal mode only), as they take the damage but do not use a threat list due to not actually hitting people. on hardmode they retain their aggro list as they don't actually die, and so this becomes rather more dangerous. I cannot think of any other situation where this could be considered A Good Idea(TM)

jmbupp
04-20-2010, 08:54 AM
There are other situations where I know HoR will do damage with no repercussions, like Bronjahm's second phase in FoS, he doesn't specifically attack any player so aggro doesn't matter anymore and I believe Icehowl in ToC, when when he crashes in the wall and gets stunned, I believe his aggro resets when he come's to, but I'm not positive. Other than that, I guess there is no other place to use it. Thank you all for the constructive input.

Fetzie
04-20-2010, 08:57 AM
NEVER use HoR at icehowl. you will die. other people might do too. Just forget this notion of taunting for more damage, because chances are that it will go wrong some time.

Tarzull
04-20-2010, 09:03 AM
Definitely not a good idea. The DPS gain is negligible and all it causes is raid chaos. Not to mention the risk of taunting a position sensitive boss like nearly any dragon.

Satorri
04-20-2010, 09:41 AM
Even if you managed to not get killed by taunting stuff off of the tank, I can tell you exactly why tanks don't like it.

The tank's job is to hold threat on everything and often that is an act of triage. You put threat where it is needed and you get used to the pace and predictability so that you can threaten things smartly. If the DPS is taunting it doesn't just pull threat off the tank it matches your threat to the tanks and throws an unpredictable monkey wrench in their job.

If you're using it "where it doesn't matter" as you say, then you don't need the extra damage. If you're using it where the damage will be significant, you're also probably really messing up the tanks and putting your whole group at risk.

So, my question is, why is it so important for you to get some extra damage? Is padding your dps worth the havoc of taunting things off the tank?

Fenier
04-20-2010, 03:19 PM
I will 100% let anyone who pulls stuff for me, or taunts off of me on purpose, tank the mob as long as it doesn't kill anyone but that person. If you want to tank that badly, I am more then happy to let you live the dream. If that kills you in the process, then maybe it'll sink in quicker.

It's the exact same reason people hate Army of the Dead on Heroic Bosses. It spins the boss, and on several bosses (Such as the ones in H Nexus, H UK, H VH etc) their positioning will likely determine if someone lives/dies/is knocked backed/etc. Ever see a DPS taunt the Boss in H UK during a Dark Smash? that's really all it takes to kill the person. Boss Positioning is very important on some encounters. Tanks position the boss so it doesn't cleave half the raid to death, so it doesn't breathe on people, and so forth. Your spinning the mob is not only disrespectful to the tank, but dangerous and disrespectful to the rest of the group/raid (whom may die from your hitting it to early, followed by a cleave attack.)

Tanks typically have enough to worry about without also fighting their group mates for pulling aggro on purpose.

Satorri
04-21-2010, 05:51 AM
I will 100% let anyone who pulls stuff for me, or taunts off of me on purpose, tank the mob as long as it doesn't kill anyone but that person.
Ha ha, I do the same.

Usually that's only dps DKs who Death Grip foolishly. (Sure if it's called for, or helpful, but I've seen WAY too many DKs do it because they were too lazy to run to their target)

Illidra
04-21-2010, 06:02 AM
i deathgrip lots of mobs their called cult adherents that have spell reflect active :D:D

'oh no im way to far away to pick up the mobs, OMG SPELL RELFECT, DEATHGRIP TO THE RESCUEEE!!!!!!'

also alto of fun when dpsing, frontflipping and dropping a howling blast whiel moveing at high speed loooks awwwwwesome.


but no if the mobs is being tanked, i dont care if taunting would give me 1k dps more, im not gna annoy a tank, as a mainspec tank i know how bloody annoying it is when someone thinks 'omg more dps, better spam <insert damage dealing taunt here>', then gets the group cleaved.

Fetzie
04-21-2010, 06:04 AM
I think basically what people are saying here: if the dps taunts, he will die. It is not worth it. It is, in fact, NEVER worth taunting a boss unless told to.

winterbourne
04-21-2010, 07:21 AM
Concur.

Doing it "when it doesn't really matter anymore" (meaning when the target is dying anyway) is a selfish number-grinding mentality. This behavior displays a lack of discipline and respect, more than anything else. I don't mean it as a personal attack to the OP, but someone who would do this for a trifling addition to numbers when the fight is in hand, is someone likely to engage in other raid-killing tactics without thinking about it as well. Please note that you've come to tanks with this question. We don't do numbers, they are meaningless and Recount can even pose a danger to us (as in this thread) *smile*

As a tank, i will do this with my OT's (on random trash only) with the expectation that in groups of mobs, we watch the raid bars for aggro. So long as its a tank with the red dot, we don't care which. I've been working with my guild's tanks to up our dps and we use ICC trash packs for experiments like constant HoR taunting. But that is tank to tank and already agreed upon beforehand.

Fenier
04-21-2010, 10:02 AM
Ha ha, I do the same.

Usually that's only dps DKs who Death Grip foolishly. (Sure if it's called for, or helpful, but I've seen WAY too many DKs do it because they were too lazy to run to their target)

I was doing Heroic Pit of Saron on my Warrior with a guildie who needs the Axe. We get queued with a Blood DK who over the course of the run would death grip mobs already in melee range (not sure why, but rank watch reported him at Heart Strike Rank 1 of 6.. soo..) so I don't say anything. I just keep up my rotation and if I get the mob back great, if not the DK dies. Either way it's a win.

So we clear all the way to the final boss. DK starts off with Army of the Dead. I stand there annoyed and let the boss kill all the ghouls, then taunt. The DK is standing right beside him and just as the boss shouts POWER OVERWHELMING, I see the Boss turn around and one shot the DK, which is amazing because he was 250,000 threat below me. DK doesn't understand why he died. He didn't understand why he died to Ick's Poison Nova either (Didn't move) and he was doing 1700 DPS.

Also while tanking on my Paladin alt (I run one of each tank class) doing Maradoun, I had a shaman decide my pulling was to slow and 'help' me. The first time I figured it was an accident, the second time I figured something was up, but then I saw her run past the group to tag the next batch. I stopped using Consecrate and let them beat on her and then I and my GF stood there and watched her panic screaming Help! while the other 2 DPS killed them. Then the shaman got exceptionally offended when we both told her that we realize we can't save stupid and no longer even try.

So really, it's not limited to just 80 players. People level 1 - 80 doing this stuff to tanks and it's no surprise that most tanks who have tanked at 80 have a intense dislike of both of those actions and will seek to rid the world of those kinds of people whenever possible.

ulyssez
04-21-2010, 01:38 PM
Using hand of reckoning is a bad idea more than 99% of time as dps. If the taunt actally causes the mob to attack u, i would not use it. if ur using HoR as an execute move against mobs in a heroic i would consider it a mild annoyance as a tank and hope that one of them crits u

there are situations where HoR does dmg and doesnt cause the mob to target u though. Examples include dps on lady deathwhisper phase 1 only(u might catch a frostbolt but only 1), dps on ooze/cloud from pp, dps on valks from p2 lk, finishing off the orbs after lk transition. I'm not 100% certain on all these, but u can taunt to do dmg without making the mobs switch targets sometimes. If the mob is taunt immune then HoR does 0 dmg i believe.

proudmoore
04-22-2010, 05:08 AM
Learning when and where HoReckoning can be abused for damage is one of the ways you can tell the good Paladins from the mediocre. Very much like with Deathknights and Army of the Pissed Off Tanks. However, its primarily a tank-orientated "skill".

Any mob that has very weak or no targetted attacks (including melee) is a game target. That includes things like the Lich King post 10%, the Ice Orbs and Valkyr he summons on transitions, etc. Lady Deathwhisper's Adherents are another possible target. Yogg's tentacles (and I think Yogg himself) too. Before Marrowgar got nerfed to maintaining his full threat table, you could use Taunt on him during Bonestorm. Anytime a mob is "not active" (e.g. Icehowl while Stunned, the 2 seconds after a mob spawns, while casting some non-targetted spells etc), it'll deal damage. Usually.

To the above poster, I believe that Professor's adds are immune. Most things are, specifically to avoid this kind of abuse (it was hotfixed a week or two after it was implemented - in that window, it worked on all sorts of things like XT's heart, Hodir's Iceblocks, etc).

However, I would encourage you not to experiment indiscriminately. As has been mentioned, Taunting for a tiny bit more DPS is at best extremely discourteous, and at worst, it can and will wipe out raids. If you wish to experiment, spec tank and do so in heroics, that should identify the kind of scenarios where you can expect to be able to get away with it. Other than that, you're just being unpleasant to group with.

Martie
04-22-2010, 05:27 AM
Pallie tank speaking here.

I use HoR in many situations where I need a little threat boost, as it can be used whenever the mob isn't targetting me. Many mobs cast spells on specific targets, and that means you can HoR them.

The only place DPS should use them is places where DPS shouldn't be able to use them. (IE on mobs without an aggro table.) The ice blocks at sindy comes to mind.

Festergut adds are immune if memory serves.

Satorri
04-22-2010, 05:58 AM
Any mob that has very weak or no targetted attacks (including melee) is a game target. That includes things like the Lich King post 10%,
Totally not the point, as your comments are well-said, but LK post 10% meaning when the group is dead? =)


The ice blocks at sindy comes to mind.
Festergut adds are immune if memory serves.
The ice blocks are immune to taunt, so I'd assume they're immune to that damage, no?

And goes without saying, but you mean Rotface's adds? The little slimes are immune to taunt, so they should take no damage, the Big Ooze is not immune to taunt but the tank needs to kite it so taunting would be terrible, and you never dps them anyway, so it is pointless except for the sake of padding your dps numbers?

Shico752
04-22-2010, 07:35 AM
HoR should not even be on your bars if your Ret or if it is its stuck in a conner somewhere in case of emergency

Doherty
04-22-2010, 11:00 AM
If we're in one of the heroics that was released at WotLK's launch, then I most likely wouldn't mind. Lots of times during trash, when mobs have barely any health left I'll run to the next group anyways. In the last seconds of a boss fight I wouldn't mind, assuming you timed it properly.

If you taunted at the beginning or during the course of any fight, I wouldn't like it. I think the most important thing to do when PuG'ing is to give a quick explanation ahead of time of what you will be doing. It would be disheartening to think that my threat was so low that a DPS inevitably pulled at the end of a boss fight. What I find more annoying are the DPS that can't wait a few seconds before opening up.

I sympathize with this Paladin as long as he's using the technique properly. Who am I to judge? When I run a heroic on my Hunter, I'll switch targets to get a Kill Shot if I have to. If it had a taunt mechanic built in, I still would. That's because I can set up a technique where I Feign Death or briefly kite, just like the Paladin sets up a technique. It keeps me more engaged.

Trogdorrior
04-22-2010, 11:05 AM
HoR is perhaps the most important part of my questing routine. The less hp a mob has before it gets to me the better, but for situations when you're in a group, not so much. All other factors aside, I come to this from a kindness standpoint. If that boss gets off any manner of aoe or cleave-esque damage in those last few seconds, your bubble protects you, but not any dps standing next to you. Just not very nice to open them up to damage just to pop off a measly couple thousand damage.

Martie
04-22-2010, 11:08 AM
The ice blocks are immune to taunt, so I'd assume they're immune to that damage, no?
Are you sure about that? I don't remember having an issue taunting them.

And goes without saying, but you mean Rotface's adds? The little slimes are immune to taunt, so they should take no damage, the Big Ooze is not immune to taunt but the tank needs to kite it so taunting would be terrible, and you never dps them anyway, so it is pointless except for the sake of padding your dps numbers?
I meant Putricide, sorry.

Leucifer
04-22-2010, 03:48 PM
Even if you managed to not get killed by taunting stuff off of the tank, I can tell you exactly why tanks don't like it.

The tank's job is to hold threat on everything and often that is an act of triage. You put threat where it is needed and you get used to the pace and predictability so that you can threaten things smartly. If the DPS is taunting it doesn't just pull threat off the tank it matches your threat to the tanks and throws an unpredictable monkey wrench in their job.

If you're using it "where it doesn't matter" as you say, then you don't need the extra damage. If you're using it where the damage will be significant, you're also probably really messing up the tanks and putting your whole group at risk.

So, my question is, why is it so important for you to get some extra damage? Is padding your dps worth the havoc of taunting things off the tank?

This says it all.

Is that TINY bit of dps REALLY worth it?

You're intentionally pulling aggro for a tiny bit of dps.

You can probably get away with it on mobs. Maybe get away with it on heroic bosses regularly. Less likely to get away with it on raid bosses where we're talking MILLIONS of health. The whole idea is pretty much "playing with fire". Well, you're playing with fire, and so far, getting away with it.

Some posters have good points about cleaves and such. The bosses DON'T QUIT just because they're down to 0.1% health. Maybe a cleave lands that kills a raid member like with Marrowgar's Saber Lash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=71021). Maybe it's enough to pull Patchwerk and get him to land Hateful Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41926) on that rogue next to you and it obliterates them. Or MAYBE.... you get REALLY lucky and Saurfang turns and nails you while you have Rune of Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=72408) and now, instead of being dead.... his health just went from 10k up to 70k.... no wait.... 140 k..... awwww sh!t.

Again, this is one of those things that dps does that I find EXTREMELY aggravating..... because it's ego driven. It's all about "you"..... and you're supposed to be part of a team/group/guild.

Yes. It hits hard. Yes. It does a lot of damage. Yes. You do it while I'm tanking, and I'm gonna push for kicking you from the group because you're putting yourself ahead of the group for a one-time 5-6k hit. What else are you willing to throw us under the bus for?

EDIT:
I'm sorry. This particular discussion... after reading all of it again... makes me go.... >_<

I've already said enough.

Fetzie
04-24-2010, 08:19 AM
Or MAYBE.... you get REALLY lucky and Saurfang turns and nails you while you have Rune of Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=72408) and now, instead of being dead.... his health just went from 10k up to 70k.... no wait.... 140 k..... awwww sh!t.

or maybe you really crack the jackpot and taunt saurfang at 10k life while having Mark of the Fallen Champion on you...and the boss has suddenly got 4 million life back. Yeah you would be SO popular.

Oblivion
04-25-2010, 02:48 PM
HoR does indeed work on the Ice Blocks for Sindy, been doing it for the last few weeks myself.

Satorri
04-26-2010, 07:23 AM
Sweet, that's good to know! Perhaps we should compile a list of HoR applicable damage items for the eager Ret/Healadins. =)

Martie
04-26-2010, 07:38 AM
Sweet, that's good to know! Perhaps we should compile a list of HoR applicable damage items for the eager Ret/Healadins. =)
We really shouldn't - making a list of stuff you can taunt will lead to Retridins becoming retardins.

For every person who can handle doing it right, there's five out there who'll screw it up.

Airowird
04-26-2010, 08:46 AM
We really shouldn't - making a list of stuff you can taunt will lead to Retridins becoming retardins.

For every person who can handle doing it right, there's five out there who'll screw it up.
The point is to make a list of bosses/mobs where it is ok to use HoR.
Any target that can not kill you but is tauntable is basicly what you should have on there, like ice blocks, Marrowgar up to 6 seconds before end of whirlwind (so the fixate doesn't last past the aggro reset), ...

Davih
04-26-2010, 08:56 AM
marrowgars bad because his aggro doesnt reset anymore, meaning youll be most likely top of the list when he finished his bone storm, and to be honest no retridin should be taunting anything in a raid enviroment, the damage is quite trivial seeing as bosses have millions of health the chance of the 6k crits being needed is low.

Fetzie
04-27-2010, 02:33 AM
marrowgars bad because his aggro doesnt reset anymore, meaning youll be most likely top of the list when he finished his bone storm, and to be honest no retridin should be taunting anything in a raid enviroment, the damage is quite trivial seeing as bosses have millions of health the chance of the 6k crits being needed is low.

a non-tank at the top of marrowgar's threat list will either kill all the melee or the raid depending on how you position the raid.

Dulvarian
05-02-2010, 05:01 PM
How many bosses go taunt immune due to diminishing returns?

Steakdinner
05-04-2010, 10:40 AM
If it wasn't risking the loss of other raid dps or healers that happen to be in the line of fire for cleaves/breath/nasty frontal damage, I would let the boss (or whatever you taunted) kill you. You risk killing the people that keep me alive while I tank, so after you've paid a hefty repair bill and been made to sit outside of the raid until you learn not to throw a taunt into your rotation for just a little more dps...I might let you come back in and dps. I know it may come off as rude, but place yourself in the same position, you're tanking a boss and some a-hole taunts for a slight dps boost and gets himself and all of the melee killed. Would you want said person coming back in and risking the same thing happening again?

And that's what really grinds my gears.

Martie
05-05-2010, 02:17 AM
How many bosses go taunt immune due to diminishing returns?
As far as I've been able to tell, all of them.

Ajire
05-05-2010, 02:50 AM
My questions are, why do people think this is a bad idea and why aren't more ret pallies doing this?

imagine doing this on Marrowgar: You taunt him, just as he does a saber lash. Congratulations, you have just killed yourself and the healer next to you, causing completely unnescesary risk to the raid as well as a repairbill for both yourself and your team-members.

I promise you, do a thing like this on my raids, and you are off the active roster - for good. Try to remember that the world is not centered arround you, and that you actions may have consequences for other than yourself.

This problem is closely related to the issue of self-centric dps Death Knights popping army of the dead for a dps boost, without having the slightes clue that they are about to cause a wipe. Example: I OT'ed Anub'Arak in ToC25 pug once and was assigned to add-positioning. A Death Knight pops Army. "But Army does not taunt Bosses" No, but adds are not bosses. The pesky ghouls started taunting the adds, pulling them away from the patches of ice and they burrowed. We wiped terribly. Luckily the Raid Leader had sense enough to figure out what had happened and kick the offending DK.

proudmoore
05-05-2010, 04:23 AM
I hope you actually had the civility to just ask the Deathknight to not use Army on the next attempt first. You're being no better than he was if you don't have the common courtesy to try and explain to the Death Knight why Army isn't a good idea (ever).

Similarly with HoR. If people are doing it using it incautiously because they haven't considered possible consequences, then they are indeed at fault. But if you never try and explain what they're doing wrong and why, you're being just as much of an idiot as you think they're being.

Ajire
05-05-2010, 05:22 AM
I hope you actually had the civility to just ask the Deathknight to not use Army on the next attempt first. You're being no better than he was if you don't have the common courtesy to try and explain to the Death Knight why Army isn't a good idea (ever).

I wasn't raid leader at that particular instance, so the decision to kick him was not mine. "Luckily" referred to that fact that he at least did not went on to blame me for not doing my assigned task.

Many of the more experienced players have had it with reckless popping of Army and have very short tempers in that regard. That said, I'd probably not kicked him myself.


Similarly with HoR. If people are doing it using it incautiously because they haven't considered possible consequences, then they are indeed at fault. But if you never try and explain what they're doing wrong and why, you're being just as much of an idiot as you think they're being.

While I'm very keen to offer any kind of advice to any player that has a sincere wish to improve themselves, I also have a limit - as to which things are just too obvious with even a mediocre knowledge of game mechanics - where it becomes pointless babysitting.

Deliberately taunting a boss off a tank, without a very good reason to do so, is one such thing.

Popping army? Well, that one is has a bit more subtle mechanic, so I usually respond with a "go read up on your class mechanics and please don't do that again!". Personally I would be glad to see army converted into a pure dps cooldown with no extra threat besides the threat such damage would normally cause (Which would then mean that a DK in tanking pressence could use it as a threat-booster also) - it's usage as an aoe taunt cooldown is so very situational that it's nearing nonexisting.

Cardolan
05-06-2010, 10:54 AM
to be honest no retridin should be taunting anything in a raid enviroment

That's a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion. The job of DPS is to kill enemies, and the faster they do that the better - if there are situations where a Retribution Paladin can use Hand of Reckoning completely without risk to get additional damage, they should do it. Those situations are limited, though.

enricobr
05-06-2010, 11:15 AM
That's a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion. The job of DPS is to kill enemies, and the faster they do that the better - if there are situations where a Retribution Paladin can use Hand of Reckoning completely without risk to get additional damage, they should do it. Those situations are limited, though.
This is also quite a narrow-minded view, imo
The job of the DPS is to kill enemies WHILE watching their treats, fire, etc and ensuring the raid can keep going smoothly. It is not such a race that you would like to use this kind of spell just to bump your dps by a really small number.

It is not about a situation where the Ret Pala can use HoR completely without risk to get additional damage. It is whether this action would help the raid really progress better/faster. Does it help? I believe that in 99,5% (I would say 100%, but there may be one situation out there where this would help) of the time, it does not help. So it is pointless in using. Unless you count boosting your dps by a marginal amount "help", something I clearly do not consider real help.

Drizzt
05-06-2010, 10:47 PM
its very rude to pull aggro off one of us liek that. i stress over building and keeping up aggro and when im watching omen and someones threat hops up like that it makes me feel for one scared they might die and two upset that they taunted all my hard work off >.<

pretty muhc like lots said its just really disrespectfull

i let ppl die when they do it to me so

tealq
06-01-2010, 08:39 PM
I hope you actually had the civility to just ask the Deathknight to not use Army on the next attempt first. You're being no better than he was if you don't have the common courtesy to try and explain to the Death Knight why Army isn't a good idea (ever).

Similarly with HoR. If people are doing it using it incautiously because they haven't considered possible consequences, then they are indeed at fault. But if you never try and explain what they're doing wrong and why, you're being just as much of an idiot as you think they're being.

i do somewhat agree with you to the extent that it's always good to explain to new players what such and such spell or ability can do. but to be honest if you've levelled up to 80 you probably have spent at least 5 minutes just reading the tooltips of your abilites and although you might not be able to pull 8k DPS with a average 219 ilvl gear, you at least know that such and such spell shouldn't be used in the encounter.

taunting mobs can be done when running heroics with your guildies. i had one of ret pally friends DPS with his Righteous Fury active on certain naxxramas bosses simply because i had such a solid threat lead that it was becoming boring for me (the same friend also ocassionally pulls entire packs of mob and places a hand of protection on me). i often also bet with my hunters that they won't be pulling threat off me, telling them not to FD or MD. i also see it as a way to hone my tanking skills in a raid. with guildies/friends it's a way to keep things entertaining and different. but in pug and raids it is really not the thing to do either because it is annoying, or because it can cause a raid wipe.

Airowird
06-02-2010, 02:03 AM
Army of the Dead is only learned at level 80. As far as we know, that could've been his first time ever to see it!

Unger
06-02-2010, 12:57 PM
In general, tanks really dont like losing aggro. In a multi mob situation, a lot of good tanks will use threat plates. When we lose aggro, the mobs plate will change another color. We wont know why we lost it.... but we will immediately go and get it again. Which will stop us from generating threat on the mob we should be focusing, which could get ripped off us on the dps that is focusing it.

We have a fury warrior that likes to tank an add or two on Phase I of the Lich King. He asked me about it in advance and its no problem if I know its coming.

Also, holding aggro is a source of pride for many tanks. Most tanks are not motivated by big DPS numbers. If we were, we wouldnt be tanks, instead gravitating toward high dps classes. Tanks are more driven by their desire to protect their teammates and ensure that the raid can "do their thing" without fear of getting their face bashed in by Bosses or adds. Tanks dont even like it when other tanks taunt off of them without reason.

On top of all of the bad ideas named above, its generally considered bad form to taunt off a tank unless the situation calls for it. If one tank is on 6 adds and another has one, sure, take 1 or 2. But for the most part, we dont like it.

It may seem hard to believe...., but tanks can SOMETIMES be control freaks. It serves their role very well. Give your partner a break. DPS away without taunting. He or she will thank you for it.

Errvalunia
06-02-2010, 03:47 PM
That's a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion. The job of DPS is to kill enemies, and the faster they do that the better - if there are situations where a Retribution Paladin can use Hand of Reckoning completely without risk to get additional damage, they should do it. Those situations are limited, though.

The job of DPS is to kill stuff while letting other people do their jobs without interference. And to use whatever utility stuff they have to--slowing runners, kiting, disabling traps, MD/TotT, CC, whatever. There is a BIG difference between being a great DPSer who does tons of damage and a bad DPSer who does tons of damage--and the difference is that the bad DPSer thinks that their only job is to do tons of damage.


Hand of reckoning is super awesome for stopping runners though; I've been taking my paladin into the scarlet monasteries and it comes in handy cause those aholes ALWAYS run (unless you judgement of justice one and people actually focus fire properly). And when they flee, they stop targeting the tank and therefore it will do damage.