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Bindi
04-17-2010, 07:35 PM
What's the best way out of a bad pug? Is there a way to avoid certain high risk situations?

I know at one point you didn't get the deserter debuff if you left when you were dead, but I'd rather avoid that too, if I can.

I just had a hunter pull the entire first hallway of HoS while I was still phasing into the instance and I couldn't kick him due to the "grace period." But if I'd left, I'd have had a half hour wait to requeue. Oculus is the other bad one, people do dumb stuff to get themselves kicked out of there. I don't think I've ever wiped in Oc due to an idiot seeing just how much stuff in that first hall he can pull, but it's been very, very unpleasant. Do they do this to avoid the debuff? If I just sit and refuse to move 'til they kick me would I not have the debuff? OK can be bad, if I'm healing. I seem to be the only one in my battlegroup capable of watching for shadow bolts. And HoR. Face it, the percentage of pug groups that can handle HoR is very, very small compared to the number who try. After the third time I try to explain to the hunter how to hide between waves of mobs and why he should, I just want out. But the debuff keeps getting longer...

So ... is there a way to avoid the debuff? Is there a way to avoid HoR, OK and/or OC? The HoS was actually an anomaly, it's usually fast and painless. If not, is there any other way to avoid nightmare pugs? Or do I just have to keep eating the (now half hour) debuff because of people who have apparently never run the instances their gear says they should be capable of? (And are too arrogant or brainless to listen when I say "Please interrupt the spell flingers.")

I know, the ideal solution is to never pug anything, but I have several 80s (one just now gearing) and realistically I expect pug at least twice a day. My newest guy I'm not going to do the PoS quest on, and that'll cut HoR at least. I hope. But it doesn't help my tanks who are geared now and see that nasty blue load screen far too often.

pwagen
04-18-2010, 05:38 AM
Unfortunately, bad pugs are unavoidable in WoW. Best thing you can do is get to know a healer on your server and bring them along for your daily. Whether it's just the psychological factor or if people shape up when they see a healer and tank from the same guild, I don't know. But it does seem to help. Also, if a dps does behave retardedly, having both the healer and the tank tell them off usually helps. If the healer (like in my case) never did the PoS quest, that helps as well with getting HoR out of the way.

Other than that, there's not a lot to do about it. You will get idiots. Accept it, get through it and move on. Besides, 30 minutes is plenty to do dailies :P

Edit: Unfortunately(?) I've never been kicked from a group, so I have no idea if you get the debuff if you do.

Dreadski
04-18-2010, 06:47 AM
If you kill a boss before leaving you don't get the debuff. So in your case for HoS to avoid the long wait for Brann, go make the group kill Maiden, and leave after that. Personally if I have someone doing stuff like that I'll let them die till they leave or get the picture. That or just tear them apart with words. GIFT at its best use.

MellvarTank
04-19-2010, 10:15 AM
I run with my own healer. We talk to each other and intentionally kill people.

Quinafoi
04-19-2010, 10:38 AM
I run with my own healer. We talk to each other and intentionally kill people.

Recruit a hunter or rogue and you're set.

Firistar
04-19-2010, 12:28 PM
I do 2 things to avoid bad pugs, 1 being a tank I offer insta que's to the guild and friends, that ususally fills the group there. If that doesn't work or I'm on at an off time. I go in and chain pull.. I'm a war tank with mostly ICC 10 gear and short of HoR and VH I chain pull and don't give the DPS time to recover and do something stupid. (those two you can't since it's waves) For some reason I don't get HoR very often, but the FEW times I get it, I see where everyone else sets up. if someone is so stupid as to be killing himself, then it's the healers issue to rez before the next wave... or not to care. there's only so much a tank can do, and it IS the DPS's responsability to stay alive. it takes longer to compleate but if your having to kill yourself to take the add off a DPS, then was it really worth it?

Skyborn
04-19-2010, 02:36 PM
My guildmate hates Oculus with such a passion that he actually extends his instance lockout everyday so it comes up less often on his random herioc queue.

Gina
04-19-2010, 02:51 PM
I've found that letting people die is usually an effective lesson. if you tell them why you let them die, they'll either shape up, or throw a fit, call you names, and leave. either way you win, and can put them on your ignore list for future runs.

other strategies...running with people you know is the best. they'll usually back you up when you tell someone to stop doing something, and several people mocking an annoying player is more effective than one. also, I don't think the DF takes banked gear into account, so if you leave your good gear in the bank, you're likely to get lower level dungeons. you can always zone out and get it back as soon as you get a group.

Bindi
04-20-2010, 10:01 AM
I've tried the banking gear trick, but not recently. When I tried it, it didn't do anything. I've heard the idea of building a mostly-greens tanking set to wear when going into the queue on the theory that it would get you kicked out of at least some content that's above the average pug dps' mental capacity, but I haven't tried it. I may try the lock extension thing, I hadn't thought of that. But ... my dk got HoR three times in a row last time I tried to random with her so I don't know if that would work either. (I only know the first two groups couldn't deal with it. By the third group I just bailed as soon as I saw the load screen. )

So I guess the question becomes: Is it worth bad pugs to try to maintain so many toons? Should I retire a few for a while? Aah, but then which do I quit? I love them all, or I wouldn't be trying to keep up with them.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Theotherone
04-20-2010, 10:21 AM
I won't tank H HoR or H Occ (occ isn't hard anymore, but it's annoying and gives new meaning to "I'm with stupid") for a pug - H PoS I'll make a judgment call based on the pugs' gear. I just leave after the load screen; I'll eat the 1/2 hour, the hassle just is not worth 2 frosts.

Toushiro
04-20-2010, 10:25 AM
I ditch heroics alot and never get a debuff I just can't que for 10 minutes. if I find people under 4.8k GS I'll leave if they're a healer or DPS.

bugssy
04-20-2010, 06:55 PM
i tank on pally my wife heals, so we dont have to wait long for groups, usually the guild come along and its very simple. the odd occasion we get noob pugs u let em die once or twice they get the point and behave. my main is a geared lock so i understand what its like to piss of a tank so i stay out of trouble and obey. makes life easy.

Metasynaptic
04-20-2010, 07:00 PM
My priest is about a level and a half from 80. As a healer that isn't even remotely geared, I'm finding that I'm starting to see leavers in my groups.

I think this is rather silly, because I can and have healed any group with my leveling blues. The only time I've had even the remotest trouble was when the tank was in all DPS gear. The only reason I was struggling wasn't because I couldn't heal him, it was because the DPS wasn't putting out enough damage to drop the groups quickly and I was getting low on mana too much. i asked the group to either pickup the DPS or the tank to wear more defense. He changed some BOAs to defense gear and all was fine.

I think that leaving straight after the load screen is poor. At least test the team on a few fights, because skill always > gear score.

Martie
04-20-2010, 07:01 PM
/s %f sucks, he can't out-dps a tank!
/p %f sucks, he can't out-dps a tank!
/y %f sucks, he can't out-dps a tank!

Focus the sucky DPS, spam this as a macro.

thebda
04-20-2010, 08:43 PM
I generally haven't had to many bad pugs with the exception of H HOR, though I've only had that pop up once as a random. Mostly if DPS is bad and starts pulling they will usually yell at the tank and healer for a bit then leave. Most people can spot an idiot in a pug and will gladly kick him or defend the tank should the need arise.

pwagen
04-21-2010, 01:36 AM
if I find people under 4.8k GS I'll leave if they're a healer or DPS.
That's pretty silly. I've seen people with ~3500 GS do >3k dps. I've also seen people with 5400+ GS that can barely reach 2k. If you have the need for your addon to give you red numbers, stick to your guild so you don't waste other people's time.

Mačl
04-21-2010, 02:00 AM
Yeah, you can't predict how a run will go just based on gear.

I had a warrior tank decked in T10 who couldn't handle H HoR with a group that was willing to CC. I taught him the ropes but it took an hour to clear the instance. I have 3 toons that do the dailies and every other evening I have a raid. So my time is short.

Now I leave H HoR immediately, same goes for Occulus. I still have other toons to sit the debuff out or can do it after the raid. But once I have an instance run started I will see it through. I can't stand jumping ship mid run and will do it to noone else. Quitting after a wipe is asinine.
Sometimes I like the group and will skip the frost badges for my other toons. But they will have to do something that impresses me. I'm easily impressed since my expectations are quite low.

Aitch
04-21-2010, 02:38 AM
That's pretty silly. I've seen people with ~3500 GS do >3k dps. I've also seen people with 5400+ GS that can barely reach 2k. If you have the need for your addon to give you red numbers, stick to your guild so you don't waste other people's time.

^^This

You people who drop because of other players low gear scores should be ashamed of yourselves. How are they supposed to gear up if party members wont stick around. The only pug that is difficult is H HoR, and that's mostly because people dont/wont CC, or follow a basic kill order.

I'm currently leveling my Paladin up, and that character will probably have a gear score of less than 3000 by the time I get to 80. It will be defense capped and I will stack for stam, but other than that once I hit 80, I'll be non-stop pugging heroics for the badges to gear up. Granted the healer will have less of a margin for error than on my DK tank, but they will just have to live with it, because I'm not going to do one normal dungeon a day to get 2 triumph emblems, when I can farm heroics for 5+ per dungeon.

Zyffyr
04-21-2010, 09:59 AM
if I find people under 4.8k GS I'll leave if they're a healer or DPS.

As has already been mentioned, that is absurd. A person wearing full heroic level gear will have around 3.5k. A person wearing that gear already outgears the instance. You are demanding T9 gear for content that isn't even T7 in difficulty. If you actually need the other people to be that well geared, well... that says bad things about your level of skill.

Theotherone
04-21-2010, 10:26 AM
I'm finding most of the low gs toons are alts these days. I was in H HoS Sunday morning and the group was all 3k or less gs; I asked if they wanted all bosses, they said yes they needed the badges; to which I agreed. I then asked how many were alts? All four were on alts and everyone, including me, had at least 3 80s (one guy was on his 5th). They all knew the fights, they all knew how to play their toons, and the run went smooth as silk - they even got the achievement Brann Spanking New. So, one really can't judge a group by GS alone.

Oh, and this morning I broke my own rule and ran H Occ on my pally tank (I needed the random and wanted to get it in before work) and it went fine. One wipe on final boss 'cause Emerald wasn't keeping the DoT up and Amber wasn't stopping time. They did it the next try and down Maly went. I'm re-thinking my no PuG Occ rule.

Mwawka
04-21-2010, 10:54 AM
Maybe it's cuz both toons I run dailies on are healers, but I can honestly say that I've had maybe one really bad pug since the LFG tool became available. I'm over geared on both toons, but the bottom line is if you have a very good healer and/or a good tank, you can pretty much cover for other peoples stupidity. I take my daily luck of the draw and see through whatever instance I draw, get it done as quickly as possible and if there happens to be a wipe due to stupidity, suck it up and keep going.

Also, leaving if GS is under 4800? Are you seriously that insecure about your abilities? I love if I can help carry a new 80 through a heroic.

Schmevan
04-21-2010, 12:46 PM
I don't just let them die, I deliberately kill them, even if it wipes the group sometimes. I'm a NE DK, so I'll just wait until they are riding my butt on threat again because they can't wait for me to get diseases up and shadowmeld (if I'm going to deliberately kill someone the healer is in on it with me), I even used this trick when tanking Sarth and tricked the annoying lock who was trying to tell me how to tank into thinking he pulled aggro. The healer and I were laughing so hard the rest of the fight XD.

Misogyny
04-21-2010, 11:57 PM
"I just had a hunter pull the entire first hallway of HoS while I was still phasing into the instance and I couldn't kick him due to the "grace period." But if I'd left, I'd have had a half hour wait to requeue"

I would have said something like /p Well it looks like the huntard's got this taken care of, I'm going to go get a sandwich.

And I would indeed have gone and gotten a sandwich. The same grace period preventing you from kicking the hunter would prevent the group from kicking you.

While you make your delicious bread & meat snack, everyone else will get fed up and leave.

Voila! You are now alone in the instance. Right-click the LFD tool icon and teleport out of the instance, now you may requeue, and you're now fortified by a tasty sandwich. The win is incredibly strong here.

Metasynaptic
04-22-2010, 12:02 AM
While I lol'ed at this, I saw a video of a hunter with a pet tanking Marrowgar the other day.

But yeah, that's ordinary.

leethaxor
04-22-2010, 12:59 PM
"I just had a hunter pull the entire first hallway of HoS while I was still phasing into the instance and I couldn't kick him due to the "grace period." But if I'd left, I'd have had a half hour wait to requeue"

I would have said something like /p Well it looks like the huntard's got this taken care of, I'm going to go get a sandwich.

And I would indeed have gone and gotten a sandwich. The same grace period preventing you from kicking the hunter would prevent the group from kicking you.

While you make your delicious bread & meat snack, everyone else will get fed up and leave.

Voila! You are now alone in the instance. Right-click the LFD tool icon and teleport out of the instance, now you may requeue, and you're now fortified by a tasty sandwich. The win is incredibly strong here.

Yes the: "/p YOU pull it YOU tank it" philosophy.

Trogdorrior
04-22-2010, 01:01 PM
I indeed love sandwiches and watching people rage quit. it's win/win.

Shadowstreek
04-23-2010, 11:34 AM
I'm re-thinking my no PuG Occ rule.

Every single Occulus run (Occulus pops fairly often for me) that I've done on both my main and alts has been a pug and I've never had any issues. Maybe I just jinxed it. I find the difference in time between a 264+ gear run and a sub 252 level gear run is about 5-7 mins. As DPS, my wait time for a re-queue is longer than that. So leaving groups based on gear is just plain silly. Heck, I even had an untalented 80 hunter along the other day and we still finished the run fairly quickly. So I don't fear pugs but then I am a DPS most of the time :P

Trogdorrior
04-23-2010, 11:43 AM
Just this morning I had Occy pop as my random daily and we not only flew through it, but I got my Ruby Void and Emerald Void achieves on that run. It's really just luck of the draw.

Schmevan
04-23-2010, 05:14 PM
Occ is ezmode, I can pull it in 15 minutes tops, and if it is a random you get a nice bag of blue gems that can be easily transmuted into epics. Epic win. HoS on the other hand...I hate that place, the 2 bosses you have to do are the ones I hate the most. Unless I have an arms warrior geared into the next xpac, then I just pretend I'm trying and let him tank lol jk. I treat PoS like the new occ sometimes, I find it worse than HoR because when I get that one, either the people know what they are doing or they just follow the group, death grip makes HoR not that bad for me unless the healer is suckzor. PoS on the other hand you always have people ninja pulling, you always have people who don't understand that they have to clear their stacks of permafrost, or that they can't attack with the brand on them w/o killing the tank...all they do is PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW... Also the gauntlet is hard to tank when people are pulling off you before you stop...I hate that cause then I have no runes to tank with when I do stop.

did not mean to rant this long, that is all