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Tiriael
04-13-2010, 07:25 AM
Hey everyone. I've been having a rather long standing debate with the other members of my guild involving Paladin tanking. My argument is that Paladins should be paying attention to armor as an addition to EHP and that stacking avoidance is generally a bad idea. I am pulling my opinions from my experience as a Warrior tank. However my guildies are telling me that I am wrong and I should stop giving out advice to other Paladins because I haven't played one and thus have no experience. In a further conversation with my GM he suggested that I level a Paladin and gear it they way I would gear my warrior (stack EHP). Bear in mind this whole debate kind of spawned when I suggested to a prot pally that he should spend his Emblems of Triumph on the Glyph. Oh the hell that caused...

Essentially I was told I was wrong because Paladins have enough mitigation from talents such as Holy Shield and Redoubt.

Granted, I understand that this is essentially the same debate that has been had on these forums over and over, I'm just especially curious if there really is that big of a difference in gearing between Paladins and Warriors. If Paladins gear that differently from Warriors I will just keep my opinions to myself when a Paladin asks for help and pipe up when someone is asking for help with a Warrior.

Thank you for your advice. I always appreciate your guys' incite and expertise.

Insomnia
04-13-2010, 07:34 AM
Armour's nice, however I don't think you'd see a pally passing up Juggernaut's Vitality or Corroded Skeleton's Key for Glyph. Armour in my opinion is better than avoidance as it's a constant reduction whereas avoidance is hit or miss. In any case, meatshields are still meatshields and we need meat (stamina).

Tiriael
04-13-2010, 07:44 AM
I agree with you however, what I am seeing is the pally tanks in my guild are using two stam trinkets over one armor and one stam. Granted I believe swapping gear out depending on the encounter, but it seems like they are essentially being advised that all you need are two stam trinkets for any encounter in the game and their talents will make up the gaps in gearing. Maybe I'm just making a mountain out of a mole hill, but if I can help our tanks get better I will try my best.

Dreadski
04-13-2010, 07:47 AM
It's up to personal preference whether you use the glyph or say, Juggs. That said, due to dimishing returns and chill of the throne as well as the general boss mechanics in ICC it's better for any tank of any class to stack EH over avoidance any day.

Insomnia
04-13-2010, 07:52 AM
I agree with you however, what I am seeing is the pally tanks in my guild are using two stam trinkets over one armor and one stam.

Then you don't agree with me :P Because I'm saying your guild's protadins are doing the best thing. I wonder if someone could do the math on something like glyph. In my opinion and probably will be mathematically supported, the extra health is much better. We're not even thinking about BoS's benefits that are added w/ the trinkets too :P.

My Stand+Summary: Stam Trinks>1 Armor, 1 Stam.

Aaesop
04-13-2010, 07:57 AM
It's up to personal preference whether you use the glyph or say, Juggs. That said, due to dimishing returns and chill of the throne as well as the general boss mechanics in ICC it's better for any tank of any class to stack EH over avoidance any day.

^ this.
Redoubt I don't so much put into thoughts or really heavily profess upon when it comes to avoidances. Generally speaking it's just not reliable enough. Holy shield of course is reliable and up so long as you pop the spell.
But generally speaking the only difference seen from what I was gearing for compared to a warrior is the unavoidable differences in Tier gear. Other than that, I was pretty much in the hunt for the exact things Dreador was. There's more to life than block after all :)

Tiriael
04-13-2010, 08:03 AM
Then you don't agree with me :P Because I'm saying your guild's protadins are doing the best thing. I wonder if someone could do the math on something like glyph. In my opinion and probably will be mathematically supported, the extra health is much better. We're not even thinking about BoS's benefits that are added w/ the trinkets too :P.

My Stand+Summary: Stam Trinks>1 Armor, 1 Stam.

Haha well I guess there are some differences between Paladin and Warrior gearing then. I suppose I just never really thought that a Paladins talents could make up for that much of a gearing gap by not using an armor trinket.

Insomnia
04-13-2010, 08:13 AM
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&cn=Reception

That's me, and yes I know I'm playing on a EU server =/. Notice my armour, (27k) and my HP 41,469 UB. Although I've never been, I'm probably capable of taking up to sindragosa/LK with what I'm at now. Which is just speculation but I'm confident I could :P.

I'm just not sure that glyph can beat out stam trinkets =/.

Dreadski
04-13-2010, 08:25 AM
Haha well I guess there are some differences between Paladin and Warrior gearing then.

No, there are none. It is ENTIRELY personal preference.

lucem
04-13-2010, 09:05 AM
Then you don't agree with me :P Because I'm saying your guild's protadins are doing the best thing. I wonder if someone could do the math on something like glyph. In my opinion and probably will be mathematically supported, the extra health is much better. We're not even thinking about BoS's benefits that are added w/ the trinkets too :P.

My Stand+Summary: Stam Trinks>1 Armor, 1 Stam.


ill give you the math, for paladins, im not sure its the same for warrior or bear, but the armour-stamina ratio is around 10-10.5 armour per every stamina. Lets make things simple for ourselves and say its 10 stamina.

If you compare the key to the glyph its out of proportion, they key is ilvl 264 and 236 stamina. You would need a 2360 armour trinket to match it. But lets consider the glyph and satrinas. Its 192 stam from satrinas vs 176 from the glyph.

Thats a fairly similar situation, but if you consider the newly added 10% buff from wrynn thing, the value of armour compared to stamina increases, which is going to make the glyph more effective in physical fights than satrinas (keep in mind we willl get 15% soon).

Overall its a matter of personal choice, i dont wear dual stamina because i haven't used emblems on the key, i use satrinas and the glyph. So my 33k armour makes things nicer for the healers. Unless i manage to get the key and sindragosas fang ill prob stick to stam armour for physical fights.

But once again as stated earlier its a matter of choice because just as i showed you with the math, its a very close call. With the 10% ill agree with you and say the glyph is better.

lucem
04-13-2010, 09:08 AM
^ this.
Redoubt I don't so much put into thoughts or really heavily profess upon when it comes to avoidances. Generally speaking it's just not reliable enough. Holy shield of course is reliable and up so long as you pop the spell.
But generally speaking the only difference seen from what I was gearing for compared to a warrior is the unavoidable differences in Tier gear. Other than that, I was pretty much in the hunt for the exact things Dreador was. There's more to life than block after all :)

i think he was reffering to redoubt with the 30% fixed increase in block value. Not the possible increase in block rating

Aaesop
04-13-2010, 09:34 AM
i think he was reffering to redoubt with the 30% fixed increase in block value. Not the possible increase in block rating
Either way Shield Mastery/Redoubt, same amount of BV gain.
lol however I do agree with you in the assumption that he may have meant the block value gain after reading over it again.

Dreadski
04-13-2010, 09:40 AM
Block value is not effective health...and even as mitigation it's a chance to proc another proc off another proc. Totally unreliable. This is a discussion about avoidance vs. effective health between a tank and his guild. There's been numerous discussions on the matter here and most all of them have been locked because they turn into retarded arguments.

Aaesop
04-13-2010, 09:49 AM
In the end realistically, there's not really a reason to gear any differently. Both classes have for the most part, the same needs.
In raiding guilds with for example a quality Warrior tank and a quality Paladin tank. The only differences you're going to see between the two are..
1) Stats/Name on tier gear.
2) Either person having or not having a drop sheerly through luck/misfortune on their rolls for loot.
3) A different gearing theory based from personal preference.

30% increased chance to block from holy shield and 30% more block value from redoubt really doesn't bring a need to gear differently.

Aggathon
04-13-2010, 12:52 PM
^ What he said, let me straighten it out and dispell some myths.

First: Semantics, I think some of the confusion in this thread might be due to confusion in terms, specifically avoidance and mitigation.

Avoidance = Dodge/Miss/Parry completely avoiding an attack
Migitation = reducing an attacks damage, either through shield block or armor

Now, the reason why block isn't considered in the EHP calc is because (especially in ICC with the 20% dodge debuff making getting to the 102.4% mark nearly impossible even for paladins) it's not reliable. Even pallies don't have a reliable enough chance to block to consider it EHP, and that's why it's not included in the EHP calculation (and block is also calculated after armor when a boss hits):

EHP = HP/(1-%reduction from armor). The quick and dirty equality is 1stam ~ 11 armor, there's a bunch of decimals and armor actually gets better in the EHP calc based on how many HPs you have, so at higher HP levels armor is worth more, but the basic quick and dirty comparison without running to an EHP calculator is 1 stam ~ 11 armor.

For every other reduction effect it adds multiplicatively so you multiple the denominator by (1-%reduc) of whatever the other effect is and repeat for every subsequent damage reducing effect. It is multiplicatively added simply because if it was additive you could get over 100% dmg reduction. Armor also caps out at 75% reduction, but that's not really a point of contention in this thread.

Second: Pally and Warrior gearing is ALMOST THE EXACT SAME. There are only 2 differences:
1) Pallies get higher coefficients from agi, so they almost always use agi hybrid gems instead of dodge or expertise (especially since they get a base 10 expertise from glyph of seal of vengeance). They also get better returns fom mongoose due to higher uptime from SoV and better avoidance (and crit) coefficients from agi. I still am a firm believer in blood draining though and I will even advocate agi for warriors. It also is a tiny quibbling point because 10 agi or 10 dodge in a gem slot to hit a meta bonus is not going to make or break a tank.

2) They have a libram, we have a gun, DUH

As far as the stam/stam or stam/armor trinket debate, I recommend looking at http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?64896-Clarification-on-a-possible-misconception-of-trinket-use.&highlight=misconception

The basic thesis is that you should use whichever gives you more EHP. I think the number is around 44k HPs buffed, glyph of indominability because better than heart of iron by about 2 stam worth of EH, making it about 164 stam worth. Due to the aforementioned EHP calculation you can see that armro scales with your total HPs, so glyph gets better and better, however it never passes Jug's Vitality in current content in terms of raw EHP, to my knowledge. However, the cooldown is also pretty good which is why I would suggest using it over brewfest trinkets and is more reliable EHP than say "The Black Heart." I would not use glyph of indom over the skeleton key or jug's vitality. I would use Unidentifiable Organ over The skeleton key on fights that don't have heavy magic components or maybe if I could reliably have stacks up all the time, but I can't actually think of a fight like that, maybe add tanking on gunship?!

There's no inherent benefit in using an armor trinket that gives you less EHP than a raw stam trinket, since while you will take slightly less damage, you will have more HPs than the decrease in damage you would take, and if your healers are worth their salt, that difference should still be easy to heal in current content.