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View Full Version : Tanking Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)



Bodasafa
04-09-2010, 07:50 AM
The facts about Expertise and Hit in the current game.

Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.




Please sticky and attach strobe light. If this belongs in a better forum for a sticky please move. Thank you.

Aggathon
04-09-2010, 08:07 AM
+1, I think I'm going to buckle down at some point this weekend and do my "why you do what you do" post, and I'll definitely expand on this and give more reasoning behind it, but overall this is 100% correct.

Dreadski
04-09-2010, 08:56 AM
I just hope people read it and stop posting threads about it. At least if it gets stickied we'll have a quick reference point to "let me google that for you".

MellvarTank
04-09-2010, 11:38 AM
Thanks Boda, and if you want some help Agg I can try to do what I can... but I may be tracking drums for a session all weekend, so we'll see.

tlitp
04-10-2010, 08:28 AM
Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize. (1)

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
(...)
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD. (2)
(...)

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. (3)
(...)
There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. (4)

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2. (5)
(1) Mentioning "scale" implies "comparison". And for a comparison one needs numbers. No numbers, no conclusion(s).
(2) The usage of external (especially TotT) or internal (Hysteria) abilities is not there to mask the tank's inability to generate enough output. When used on/by tanks, these tools only lead to a net rDPS loss.
(3) EH is inherently a threshold metric. Past a certain encounter's EH thresholds, stacking Stamina is rightfully inappropriate.
(4) As appealing as it may be, an ipse dixit is still a defective induction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_defective_induction).
(5) The threat output is also a threshold metric. Given enough threat, what tanks will want is more damage.

Unsupported claims shouldn't be mistaken for facts.

Dreadski
04-10-2010, 10:26 AM
^ *buzzing noise* wrong
1- You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want numbers? Present some.
2- Those abilities mentioned are to be used 1 time, on the pull. Afterward they are used properly.
3- People keep mentioning a magic threshold for EH. Find and present the threshold or gtfo. When does one stop stacking stamina and armor?
4- Original statement was irrelevant. As was your response.
5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are bad.

All you posted are opinions, plus a wikipedia (irrelevant) link. One would hope that a new registrant hoping to argue would want to post some kind of back up for their claims, which are pretty heavy-handed and lacking any kind of evidence, where as the information in the original post is heavily tested by tanks in the best guilds in the world, and true.

Papapaint
04-10-2010, 10:39 AM
^ *buzzing noise* wrong
1- You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want numbers? Present some.
2- Those abilities mentioned are to be used 1 time, on the pull. Afterward they are used properly.
3- People keep mentioning a magic threshold for EH. Find and present the threshold or gtfo. When does one stop stacking stamina and armor?
4- Original statement was irrelevant. As was your response.
5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are f*cking bad.

Getting kind of sick of the brand new posters who come on here just to argue, and when they do such, they never have anything to back it up. All you posted are opinions, plus a wikipedia (irrelevant) link.

Gotta agree with this.

I run with 13 expertise and 92 hit rating. I'll swap some gear to cap taunt hit if it's a fight that needs it, but otherwise, I effectively ignore non-survival stats. I don't avoid them, but I'll only take them if they come packaged on max EH gear.

There really isn't an "EH threshold" like there was in BC, particularly in ICC heroic. Outgearing a fight is something totally different. Doing normal mode fester? Sure, I'll swap out some survival gear and try to get a sweet World of Logs record. But that's because our whole raid outgears the encounter, not because I hit some magical threshold. There's no point where you win a ring and say "F*ck yeah, I don't have to worry about maximizing survival anymore!"

Dead tanks are the #1 loss of raid DPS.

EDIT: Forgot to say that I also have zero threat problems, with or without tricks/MD (although tricks/MD should be used on the pull!). Every class is given the needed tools to hold threat via glyphs/talents/abilities.

People seem to value threat stats as though you'd miss every single attack without expertise and hit.

Aggathon
04-10-2010, 11:38 AM
Also, the assumption that tricks/MD on the tank (ESPECIALLY on the pull) is a net rDPS loss is actually false. Because of the usage of those abilities, a tank can get a massive lead from the start and it allows DPS to be able to go balls to the walls DPS immediately resulting in a net rDPS INCREASE. If a tricks or MD is not used and someone gets a lucky crit and the tank gets an unlucky parry (something that CAN happen in ICC regardless of gear because there is simply not enough expertise on gear to go for the parry hard cap, it would be stupid to do) and that DPS dies, then that DPS does zero DPS for the rest of the encounter, but if an MD or tricks had happened, then the DPSer wouldn't have died, resulting again, in a net DPS increase.

Bodasafa
04-10-2010, 02:16 PM
Getting kind of sick of the brand new posters who come on here just to argue, and when they do such, they never have anything to back it up.

This.

The active community members that answer questions here day in and day out are becoming just a bit tired of the uniformed nonsense new registrants are posting. It becomes hard for us to tell if were just getting trolled or if someone is genuinely misinformed and needs help. In either case the active community members will respond discrediting these false posts so that others do not become confused about the facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we respect that here. But publish nonsense and we will call you on it.

Aggathon
04-10-2010, 02:33 PM
I do think we should make a distinction between "new registrants" and trolls. Just because they are a new registrant we shouldn't automatically lump them into an "us vs. them" category and cause people to shy away from posting lest those of us that have thousands of posts descend upon them like locusts, but I do agree that it is frustrating and sometimes hard for us to tell if we're getting trolled or not. We were all new registrants at some point (minus the creators obviously) and we've all been wrong, even me =P, and I've accepted it when called out on it.

Babibele
04-10-2010, 03:15 PM
By the way, New registrants may be long time readers :)
As far as the thread is concerned, i have always dodged the Taunt Glyph, in order to prevent miss taunt from causing wipe i'm just using Vigilance on the current mt, buffing him shortly before i need to taunt.

Dreadski
04-10-2010, 04:03 PM
By the way, New registrants may be long time readers :)
As far as the thread is concerned, i have always dodged the Taunt Glyph, in order to prevent miss taunt from causing wipe i'm just using Vigilance on the current mt, buffing him shortly before i need to taunt.

Tried that one, doesn't work great on heroic saurfang or taunting at 9 stacks on festergut. Plus many tanks hawk for the buff and click it off or macro a cancelaura into their abilities. The taunt glyph is very valuable and serves its purpose very well.

Dreadski
04-10-2010, 04:08 PM
I do think we should make a distinction between "new registrants" and trolls. Just because they are a new registrant we shouldn't automatically lump them into an "us vs. them" category and cause people to shy away from posting lest those of us that have thousands of posts descend upon them like locusts, but I do agree that it is frustrating and sometimes hard for us to tell if we're getting trolled or not. We were all new registrants at some point (minus the creators obviously) and we've all been wrong, even me =P, and I've accepted it when called out on it.


Oh I agree fully, and I welcome argument and discussion. This is a message board after all, and one that is home to much theory crafting. But coming here and flat out trying to invalidate something that's proven with opinions and then not even backing up....come on. WoW forums ------> that way.

Gnome
04-10-2010, 04:34 PM
I have actually been bringing this up internally withing my guild; stating that I do have a problem with threat. This does not warrant me as a bad tank though, it's just that they are outgearing me everytime Blizzard extends the ICC buff, and as DPS gets more gear. I do realize however that it in most cases it is the DPS's fault since they should back the F off if they are close to overaggroing me. Anyways, before you start writing me off as a "bad" tank or what not let me explain, and provide you with some examples.

Lets use the list Boda posted as base. Threat is mostly a problem, for me at least, in the beginning of the fight or whenever you are tanking something that does not hit you enough (or off-tanking non-cleave bosses). Lets say I am about to pull. Since I got T10 4-piece I dont want to pop Bloodrage and waste my 2nd last stand. I will however use charge so initial rage should be sorted. Before it, or after if well timed, I will pop Shield Block to start out with a heavy hitting Shield Slam and then start spamming HS and Devastate to proc Shield Slam, whenever Revenge is up I will use that aswell. Lets say I miss any of these hits though in the very beginning of the fight, I will instantly be low on threat. My DPS don't hold back, I usually get MD and TotT but not always and sometimes mid fight I don't have that on me. Shambler tanking comes to mind where the Rogues shifted TotT to themselves and they run to our camps and silence/kill the rest of the raid (not that serious but yeah, you get the picture). Anyways, what can I do to prevent this?

Boda suggests me using my abilities in a different manor, how exactly? Shockwave, that can now miss and goes off of spellhit - no thanks. Concussive Blow, nerfed and not so glorious anymore. Thunderclap is more of a defensive ability in my mind and I usually squeeze in that debuff later in the cycle. I guess I can stance switch before the pull and use Arms and Fury cooldowns but doing that mid-fight is risky loosing out on alot of rage. What more? Mocking Blow maybe... only thing I can think of.

As for spec and glyphs. I know there are some threat generating glyphs out there but speaking of the importance of surviving as some of the posters above me has mentioned it's hard for me to give up shorter Last Stand and especially Sheild Wall. Replacing them with Devastate, Vigilance and Blocking glyphs is an option for going full out on threat but is that really what people do? I don't think so, and wouldn't sacrificing a few stamina points into some gear with expertise or hit help out enough for you to have the glyphs you actually want to have (at least I enjoy popping a cooldown to buy some time for healers to focus raid or another tank). I got the "threat-spec" already.

Number three yes, If I could stick the hunters and rogues on me to always do that I guess that would do alot. But it doesn't always happen and in 10 mans you are limited to what classes you bring.

Then we got expertise, not a whole lot of gear with it. I might get some from weapon, some from boots. Then what, T10 legs loosing my Pillars... Or Cataclysmic Chest and T10 legs, that's alot fo gear to replace just for expertise. But, I think that would actually help out alot. Hit gear is pretty easy to come by. I've tried out hit capping myself for the last couple of raids and I did notice and improvement but not really comfortably gluing bosses on me.

Now, in the gear I was running some time ago I have basically ~50 hit and like 2 expertise. Now I got around 13 expertise and am hit capped. Using Devastate glyph and threat spec. Always Vigilancing a hunter in our raid who likes check his Recount rather than Omen.

I don't know, might just be me but what I got used to in Ulduar and TotCG is in no way near what I am experiencing now. I want to hold mobs myself and not rely on having 3 rogues in the raid cycling TotT on me.

If you want to noobify me and inspect me in detail here is my armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sunstrider&n=Gnomaholic and here's a random log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dea2pfabh9au8ifh/details/1/?enc=bosses

Also, I want to clarify that tanking, for me, isn't all about numbers (threat hunting). It's about keeping the raid alive, Intercepting, saving and outsmarting the content to aid our progress. So I do sometimes use abilities that are of the sort that does not generate threat. Debuffing and running around alot at times. Sorry for the wall o' text, just wanted to try to explain where I stand in this and why it's a problem for me without me actually being a bad tank. I suck at keeping it short, mkai?

Oh yeah, on last thing. I do apreciate people trying to clarify things of interest and helping new tanks out but I don't like posts that are pretty much FotM-ish do this and there is no other way. I mean, back you statements up and please provide at least some information of how you came to the conclusion and what other aspects you've concidered. I see to many guides being made stating truths based on other threads (sometimes old) and seeing to little real world example. To all who says "I have no problem at all with threat ever" I just doubt that... seriously, either you are stacked in number 4 and 5 in the list or have a battery of TotT/MD's or really really bad DPS.

Papapaint
04-10-2010, 05:42 PM
@Gnomeaholic--

You can check my armory at http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mal%27Ganis&cn=Drypaint and see the gear/spec/glyphs I use on a majority of fights, although I swap out glyphs regularly. My guild is currently progressing through heroic ICC, so you can rest assured that I'm not running with "really really bad DPS." My current gear has me at 87 hit rating (which, I mentioned earlier, I swap to cap my taunt on fights that need it) and 13 expertise including talents.

I do not have threat problems. We have one rogue who--in addition to being our top DPS--will spend his tricks on the tank any time tank threat seems to drop low.

Shockwave is a ranged attack and does not work off of spell hit, as far as I'm aware. Thunderclap as well--someone can confirm/deny that for me if they know for sure.

You say that you "sometimes" get MD at the start of a fight. This, to me, suggests that you're running with sub-par hunters. There is no downside to MD'ing the tank at the start of a fight. I also do LK add duty, and this is one fight where I swap gear to cap my hit, so I never miss a pickup on any of the shamblers/ghouls. I do the same thing in 10 man without a hunter or rogue to MD, tricks, or dispel enrages, meaning I'm managing cooldowns at the same time. I do vigilance the MT for unlimited taunts, but I'm not aware of any class in the game that has trouble with single target threat.

If you have to find that you need to swap gear to maintain threat, this is your perogative. However, your #1 job as a tank is to stay alive. Many tanks--including myself--are capable of holding threat without any "threat stats" on their gear, simply because the tools given to us are strong enough, when executed properly with a cooperative raid.

I suggest making sure that you 'always' get MD/TotT at the start of a fight, and stop complaining that you can't hold threat against DPSers who go balls to the wall and ignore your threat. Raiding involves working together, so that hunter needs to stop looking at recount. Your rogues need to stop having their TotT orgy at the start of a fight, and allow you to establish a solid aggro lead. The problems you're describing are not problems of gearing, but problems of zero cooperation from raid members.

Best of luck in the future!

Dreadski
04-10-2010, 06:04 PM
I don't really know. I mean you have great gear and your spec is in line. You should be more than capable of putting at at least ~12k TPS without tricks or MD anyway, the only thing you want is a solid lead off the bat.

Aggathon
04-10-2010, 06:42 PM
^ definitely what almighty said. And yes, I am pretty sure that both shockwave and tclap work off of ranged hit, not the spell hit cap.

@Gnomeaholic Imo, the only possible trouble given your current gear setup is lack of expertise. You have very low expertise at 11, and for me, that would drop far below my personal comfort zone, but not enough to change gear around.

I will say though that I think gaunlets of the kraken and cataclysmic chestguard are better than the 264 T10 pieces, but definitely not better than the 277 T10 pieces, and I would personally gear for those first.

If I were you, I would change all of my 10+dodge/15+stam gems into +10 exp/+15 stam gems and hit the 9 stam socket bonus in your belt. The difference in dodge will be very small and overall negligible in raids and I think you'll get far more out of the expertise you will gain. Expertise is twice as effective as hit since it reduces both dodge and parry, you will see better threat returns from expertise than you will for parry, so if you go for something, go for expertise softcap of 26, or at least close to it and use expertise food. I would also suggest picking up the expertise boots off of VDW as soon as you can, though I realize that's up to the loot randomizer to decide =P.

Also: Mocking blow is an extremely powerful too and is often underrated. I highly suggest reading http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?61063-Burst-threat-with...Mocking-Blow-Strange-but-true!&highlight=Mocking+Blow

I hope this helps, also who you vigilance can help a lot. And as far as vigilancing the other tank and not using glyph of taunt? I've definitely done that when I've forgotten to empty my drool cup and don't switch glyphs for taunt fights, and frankly... it works wonders and is just as good as having a taunt glyph, imo.

Arikak
04-10-2010, 06:50 PM
@Gnome, I'm guessing your problem lies somewhere with your DPSers.

Your rotation sounds fine. Your gear is identical to those who don't have your problems. And your spec I'm sure is fine. That pretty much boils the cause of your issues to something the dps are doing.

My guess is bad hunters and rogues. Or someone is popping all their cools and unloading before you've even hit the boss and then just riding you from there.

Gnome
04-10-2010, 07:03 PM
Yeah well, I will do that. Pray to God I get the boots and can shift some gear out soon.

The Vigilance thing replacing sound interesting, but it might be a bit risky on Saurfang. I've niticed it doesn't refresh asap and having a few blows to much on marked tank might be a not so hot thing. Ill try working in Mocking Blow a bit more, should get me a lead in the beginning, just need to magically get a couple of new buttons close to my wasd-keys.

Regarding Kraken and Cataclysmic, won't go there. I might try T10 legs out soon to cap expertise and then I might aswell try chest or kraken out. But still need Emblems though.

Anyways, just wanted to point out that it isn't as clear cut as Boda states it. I mean, different things affect threat and generalizing it to a freaking priority list just seems odd to me. I would say that expertise is still the highest priority stat for threat, then there are a numerous things you can do before stacking it to see if it helps out but if you do everything right then all you can go for is gear or possible spec/glyph changes.

Bodasafa
04-10-2010, 09:52 PM
You got some good advise in the responses above.

I would only further add that blood rage is on a 1 min CD. You can safely use it just before the pull to fill your rage and allow you to front load your threat without issue. There should be no problems 45 sec into any fight you need that large a CD for in my opinion.

Aggathon
04-10-2010, 09:55 PM
^ That, and I also just want to note that the advise I gave you above, roughly followed the subpoints Boda provided. It's kind of like a algorithm.

Bodasafa
04-10-2010, 10:22 PM
Also another good practice I did not see mentioned was swapping Vigilance targets during a fight. I have Vigilance key bound to left knock on my mouse scroll wheel. When I see someone jump over who my original Vigilance target was off the pull, I hover over their raid frame, right click, and hit my key bind to apply a fresh Vigilance.

Vong
04-11-2010, 03:03 AM
Personally I love when hunters and back stabbers buff me b4 the pull as it means I'm getting a big boosty on threat and they can go bananas from the get go. There's no shame in getting a leg up as now the buff is 10% some our my guilds dps is kinda on my heels so I've respecced from my original build to a more popular 15/3/53 build that seems to be the best threat build.
Hit is kinda of "oh well" but I do try for +20 expertise on gear swap rounds and find this is fine.

On the other subject I am a new poster on tankspot. Been a reader for yonks and would to say thanks for all the amazing posts that with a little time can be found on virtually every subject on wow. So noobies before you ask that mundane question proberly has been answered 10 times already search for it......it's there trust me.

Spiff
04-11-2010, 01:15 PM
Swapping vig has been something i've learned to do as often during an encounter, mainly I try to start with it on a ranged that I know can pull high threat from the start. I like to do this mainly because in hardmodes i'm not able to burst threat into my target as quickly as I could in normal modes, because i'm spendind some of my first gcds on putting my TC and shout. it might sound petty to some, losing one or two gcds, but it does make a dent in threat. and during the fight if he drops, or its a fight like BQ, and my vig target gets bit i'll switch it around my melee some.

Another useful tactic is on fights like saurfang or fester gut when you have a tank swap and your not sharing a cleave constantly, when your not tanking intervene the highest dps threat, even if they aren't about to pull agro, it helps them manage their threat a little better, the way I look at intereve is if i'm not using it when I can then its an ability wasted.

Arikak
04-11-2010, 02:40 PM
In addition to Blood Rage I carry a stack of Rage potions to use on fights that I know my opening threat is vital to. Just a little extra insurance that I'll be able to hit the boss with something to generate some threat.

Spiff
04-11-2010, 08:49 PM
I prefer an armor pot personally, pre pot one, and pop another during the fight. Rage is too easy to come by in boss fights imo. Its not rage gen that hinders threat at the opening of a fight, its GCDs on putting up TC and shout that cost me sometimes. Buts its never been a big deal, a little vent communication calling for someone to dump agro with invis is all it takes.

damionrayne
04-11-2010, 10:23 PM
^ *buzzing noise* wrong
1- You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want numbers? Present some.
2- Those abilities mentioned are to be used 1 time, on the pull. Afterward they are used properly.
3- People keep mentioning a magic threshold for EH. Find and present the threshold or gtfo. When does one stop stacking stamina and armor?
4- Original statement was irrelevant. As was your response.
5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are f*cking bad.

Getting kind of sick of the brand new posters who come on here just to argue, and when they do such, they never have anything to back it up. All you posted are opinions, plus a wikipedia (irrelevant) link.

The hostility does not make more people want to contribute to this community. It was unwarented and unnessecary and you could have handled that response in a better fashion then just cussing the guy out. Oh and the posted link was not irrelevant. Coming to a fals conclusion from inaccurate data is something that does infact happen. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Since being a new registrant seems to make a me a troll according to this statement, even though I have gone to lengths to add something with the rogue theroycrafting area of this forum. I apologize that I don't have 1000 posts to my name.

Now back to the actual topic, I do have something I need to ask in relation to this post.

My tank is a pally, and what I've seen over the past few dozen heroics has me a bit puzzled as to what I'm doing wrong. I have noticed some of the DPS that I run with pull threat off me, but only for a split second and I mean a split second. It's like I loose threat to them for whatever reason, and instantly gain it back without having to taunt.

Anyone have any input as to why this would be happening? Or is it maybe a lag based or latency issue that I'm not seeing? I'm using x-pearl as my unitframes and it lights up red when ever someone grabs aggro just to let you know.

Muffin Man
04-11-2010, 11:51 PM
Now back to the actual topic, I do have something I need to ask in relation to this post.

My tank is a pally, and what I've seen over the past few dozen heroics has me a bit puzzled as to what I'm doing wrong. I have noticed some of the DPS that I run with pull threat off me, but only for a split second and I mean a split second. It's like I loose threat to them for whatever reason, and instantly gain it back without having to taunt.

Anyone have any input as to why this would be happening? Or is it maybe a lag based or latency issue that I'm not seeing? I'm using x-pearl as my unitframes and it lights up red when ever someone grabs aggro just to let you know.

Quibble: the link would have been relavent if Boda's entire argument was based on how progression tanks were gearing, but anyways that's just semantics at this point.

As for you. I suspect strongly that they aren't actually pulling off you and what you're seeing are random target abilities.

For example when you MT Rotface have you noticed that he turns around even when he doesn't slime spray? (or Grobbulus before him). It's because he's actually retargetting someone randomly to apply the mutated thingie debuff on him.

I've noticed mobs that saberlash do similar things, they will randomly target someone in front of them to saberlash (stack two tanks up and watch Marrowgar ping pong his targetting between them even if one is on auto-follow).

A heroic example: Mal'ganis does this when he casts Mind Blast and Sleep, but even bosses/mobs that do instant cast abilites will retarget momentarily.

Gnome
04-12-2010, 12:59 AM
Apart from some off-topic bull-crap about new registrants etc. I think we've covered some good stuff about threat handling and this information plus some additional data should be collected and written down in a post that can be stickied imo.

I still believe the OT is not really that well put and kind of stating the wrong "facts". I rather see a post where we list solutions to handle threat and what they mean if you sacrifice something else. There are always things to concider and saying you should spec this and glyph that you have to understand that some people want to spec and glyph for something else they find more important (like shorter cooldowns).

Also, I think everyone has gone spreadsheet/weight crazy the last couple of months. There are so many factor that need to be weighed in, and I think people need to relate more to real world experience rather than math or assumptions made.

Since I am a new registrant and obviously not skilled enough to make such a post though I will leave it up to someone else. I can however contribute if I am allowed to. Hopefully we can have a proper tank write it that has actually tried things out. Where's Xav and all other old-timers. Have they moved on from FrodoVideoSpot.com, or are they still lurking around?

damionrayne
04-12-2010, 01:44 AM
Quibble: the link would have been relavent if Boda's entire argument was based on how progression tanks were gearing, but anyways that's just semantics at this point.

As for you. I suspect strongly that they aren't actually pulling off you and what you're seeing are random target abilities.

For example when you MT Rotface have you noticed that he turns around even when he doesn't slime spray? (or Grobbulus before him). It's because he's actually retargetting someone randomly to apply the mutated thingie debuff on him.

I've noticed mobs that saberlash do similar things, they will randomly target someone in front of them to saberlash (stack two tanks up and watch Marrowgar ping pong his targetting between them even if one is on auto-follow).

A heroic example: Mal'ganis does this when he casts Mind Blast and Sleep, but even bosses/mobs that do instant cast abilites will retarget momentarily.


Ah, well even durning normal trash mob pulls. I still see one of my warlock friends, or even my heals. For that matter, damn near everyone I run with. I manage to get aggro warnings on them a lot, but only for a second. Suppose I should check and make sure it's not those AoE abilities.

Though Like I said, x-pearl puts a red haze around a target that has goten aggro, when they take damage it's just a straight red line around the pic.

Aggathon
04-12-2010, 01:57 AM
Since I am a new registrant and obviously not skilled enough to make such a post though I will leave it up to someone else. I can however contribute if I am allowed to. Hopefully we can have a proper tank write it that has actually tried things out. Where's Xav and all other old-timers. Have they moved on from FrodoVideoSpot.com, or are they still lurking around?

Me and a couple other guys are workin' on it, but I'm entering the last 4-5 weeks of the semester and I don't know how much time I'll have to go as in depth as I'm wanting to, so hopefully it gets turned out sooner rather than later, but we'll see.

Dreadski
04-12-2010, 04:04 AM
The hostility does not make more people want to contribute to this community. It was unwarented and unnessecary and you could have handled that response in a better fashion then just cussing the guy out. Oh and the posted link was not irrelevant. Coming to a fals conclusion from inaccurate data is something that does infact happen. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Since being a new registrant seems to make a me a troll according to this statement, even though I have gone to lengths to add something with the rogue theroycrafting area of this forum. I apologize that I don't have 1000 posts to my name.

Sorry you're offended by that. As you can tell if you read it, it's NOT directed toward all new registrants, just the trolls who come in with nothing better to do than argue with 0 backup to their claims (this represents a very minute demographic). The link is irrelevant to the conversation because the originally posted data is correct, tested and true. Your 2 cents are of course welcome and being a new registrant does not make you a troll at all, again it's in the context of my post which it kind of seems like you only glanced over before jumping on me. I don't have 1000 posts either.

Either way, I edited to target new posters less.

PatrikL
04-12-2010, 07:03 AM
The hostility does not make more people want to contribute to this community. It was unwarented and unnessecary and you could have handled that response in a better fashion then just cussing the guy out. Oh and the posted link was not irrelevant. Coming to a fals conclusion from inaccurate data is something that does infact happen. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Since being a new registrant seems to make a me a troll according to this statement, even though I have gone to lengths to add something with the rogue theroycrafting area of this forum. I apologize that I don't have 1000 posts to my name.

Dreador is usually a lot nicer than that despite his title as destroyer of threads but I do understand the reaction since there have been a lot of "troll" posts lately and quite a few about the importance of hit and expertise. It has also been the case of many of those people claiming that many things written here about it and stamina stacking has been written by new registrants and in some cases not in such a nice way.

I did react a bit to the post as well but can understand it :D

And btw I just linked this post on my guilds forums since I feel the part about how important using your abilites properlyis, is something not everyone understands when talking about threat stats for tanks. As an example I just respecced my tank to have even less threat than before and something rediculous like 3.2k AP and still have no issues with threat. Did it to include Improved Icy Talons since we often dont have anyone bringing it in our 10 mans and has worked out well so far. And I'm not in a top raiding guild so I can promise you that threat shouldnt be an issue without the best gear either.

Bodasafa
04-12-2010, 07:05 AM
Me and a couple other guys are workin' on it, but I'm entering the last 4-5 weeks of the semester and I don't know how much time I'll have to go as in depth as I'm wanting to, so hopefully it gets turned out sooner rather than later, but we'll see.

Aye I'm on the job hunt right now so between that and progression raiding my time is limited. Though I will try and start working on some stuff with you guys.

Volador
04-23-2010, 08:58 AM
I hadn't noticed this thread until it was linked elsewhere, but now that I've seen it, I'll add my 2 cents.

The first thing to note is that I'm an altoholic. I have lots of 80s. I have 4 tanks as well as a rogue and a hunter. In both roles, the use of misdirect and TotT (on a pull) is something that I expect/or do on a consistent basis.

When I run the rogue with a guild (haven't for a few weeks), I will setup a TotT rotation with the other rogues, but the first will always go to the tank. With 2t10, using tricks is a net DPS increase for the rogue using it, AND the target receiving it, so after the first it should be given to another DPS (unless threat becomes an issue mid-fight).

When I run the hunter with a guild, I always use MD on the pull. During the fight if threat seems to be an issue, I will use MD again.

Using TotT or MD on a pull will never be a DPS loss. The possible DPS loss comes from the loss of the energy provided from 2t10 on the TotT, but is regained through being able to start DPSing at full steam immediately (as well as your fellow DPSers being able to do the same). During a fight, TotT usage is a DPS increase. MD usage during a fight is a small DPS loss (and in a movement heavier fight, will have no effect on DPS).

Smart play from a hunter and/or a rogue will allow most tanks to effectively "forget" about threat generation.

Dreadski
04-23-2010, 11:13 AM
That's a great perspective, Volador. Thanks for posting it.

Winterburn
04-24-2010, 11:13 PM
To avoid looking like a random troll, Iíll introduce myself. Iím Winterburn and Iím a tankoholic. Well, not really, Iím just fooling around.

Thereís a grain of truth to saying that gemming with threat stats wonít make a drastic improvement in threat output, thus, it effectively makes stamina gemming the best and only option. However, threat generation is effected by the playstyle and overall performance of the tank, and even more so for DKs, whom Blizzard hates so much that they made DKs cope with the rune system. This is a pretty valid reason to look for other stats in gear or gems.

While expertise seems to be pretty worthless for ICC, since parry-haste is gone and pretty much every other DKís white attack is a Rune Strike, I find hit cap to be pretty attractive. With the basic opening strategy (DnD, IT, PS, Pest) it is pretty vital that all the hits land on the target, preferably without the need to wait for a GCD to reapply the missed Plague Strike and hit Blood Tap for another Pestilence if the previous one went off already.

This is even more prominent in the middle of the fight, when you have to keep up diseases, pick up adds, watch health to pop CDs, and rain Ob/HB/FS/BS/BB all depending on procs, runes, RP, disease count downs, and current battlefield conditions. You might call me lacking, but all this does seem like a whole lot to me.

Moreover, even though I have IceHUD displaying my runes, health, and RP right around my sorry ass and TMW among other things shows diseases on my target in huge icons right under my nose, I still manage to mess up in high stress situations. At times itís just too much to watch out for and react instantly at the same time. Every time you screw up you get even more stressed, since now you have to make up a plan to get everything back to normal without wasting GCDs and runes.

And if itís not your only problem at the moment (letís face it, dps sometimes go over the threat meter, attacking the wrong target, and healers some times get silenced or just donít react on time, so itís not all about us tanks), guess what? If you donít do a good enough job (or a plain feat of hitting and clicking the exactly right thing at the exactly right time) at the very least your threat goes down. Or DPS dieÖ or healersÖ or yourself. All of which can make things really ugly.

In the light of all this I would say hit cap is pretty crucial for DK tanking, and not totally worthless either for threat or survival. So the approach for gemming and gear selection should be still weighted and pretty well personal for each player and class, instead of just going ďZOMG! JUSTGEMSTAMINAEVERYWHERE!Ē

P.S. Just a short afterword.
If you, the hypothetical reader, believe that DKs should not by any means tank, dps or even exist or that they are so pathetic and people playing them are so dumb and hopeless that they shouldnít even be taken into account, donít waste you time arguing about it, I just wonít bite. By the way, I still remember almost same talk going on about paly tanks in BC, which makes it even more hilarious to hear stuff like that from them now. I mean, I donít let stereotypes get in the way of my better judgment and say bad thing about pallies, even though most of them are pretty lousy healersÖ

killwarlord
04-25-2010, 10:18 AM
hey i am a dk tank i have tanking icc10 man easy with low gearscore and stuff i need help heres my link and

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ysera&cn=Killwarlord&gn=Boom

here if u have advise here email this adress joshcowboys@aim.com

Dreadski
04-25-2010, 10:26 AM
hey i am a dk tank i have tanking icc10 man easy with low gearscore and stuff i need help heres my link and

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ysera&cn=Killwarlord&gn=Boom

here if u have advise here email this adress joshcowboys@aim.com

Please post a new thread in the HALP! forum if you need specific questions answered about your armory.

Petninja
06-25-2010, 12:37 PM
Using TotT or MD on a pull will never be a DPS loss. The possible DPS loss comes from the loss of the energy provided from 2t10 on the TotT, but is regained through being able to start DPSing at full steam immediately (as well as your fellow DPSers being able to do the same).

It's true that a TotT on a tank will not affect DPS in any meaningful way, but just like self used Hysteria is a waste of a CD so is TotT to a tank from a DPS perspective. To maximize dps you'd put it on someone who already had high dps for the 10% buff, to keep said dps alive you use it on the tank. :P


To answer the previous debate on EH ceiling, it does exist, just not in any meaningful way. We were past the EH ceiling for Naxx when we were in Naxx. That's why tanks were swapping out survival gear for dps trinkets etc on Patchwerk. They weren't worried about it. It was an easy fight and the EH ceiling was fairly low for them.

Aggathon
06-25-2010, 02:48 PM
TotT does affect dps in a meaningful way in that they don't ind up having to throttle back to prevent pulling off the tank or they don't pull aggro in the begining and die.

Dead dps do zero dps.

Gothmogg
06-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Good Afternoon folks,

As a new poster, but long time reader, I'm wondering if there are any of the tank classes that you've found get "more" use form Expertise and Hit than others? I always assumed that DK's would benefit from some Hit (not at the expense of other stats, but if you get it its nice) as they can dual wield? Or with the warriors, does Expertise make more of a difference for them as a large chunk of Threat can come from Shield Slam, so would it stand to reason that they may want to explore getting to that 26 ish range as long as they don't sacrifice mass amounts of Avoidance or EHP to get it?

Basically I'm just wondering if Hit and Exp should be discussed more in terms of specific classes and how they benefit from it more than others? I apologize in advance if there are threads pertainign to such, but I'm wondering if there was one, encompassing thread that explores the benefits that each tank class could gain from these two stats?

Insahnity
06-25-2010, 03:01 PM
Being able to survive initial aggro is the one thing everybody agrees upon:
-If you are under hit/expertise caps, the MD/TotT is your insurance policy for the small percentage of the time your first swing misses/gets dodged/parried.
-Assuming there are no issues with rotation/spec/glyphs, even a tank one tier under a DPS' gear should be able to maintain threat once he has it. If there are issues with maintaining threat and there are no other reasons other than gear, the tank really should be running lower content beforehand.
-Post-pull, rogues should not be TotT tanks, unless it is to assist with the pickup of adds, especially untauntable ones. It is a net DPS loss to the raid since 2 or more rogues are not getting the 10% buff.

Insahnity
06-25-2010, 03:07 PM
Good Afternoon folks,

As a new poster, but long time reader, I'm wondering if there are any of the tank classes that you've found get "more" use form Expertise and Hit than others? I always assumed that DK's would benefit from some Hit (not at the expense of other stats, but if you get it its nice) as they can dual wield? Or with the warriors, does Expertise make more of a difference for them as a large chunk of Threat can come from Shield Slam, so would it stand to reason that they may want to explore getting to that 26 ish range as long as they don't sacrifice mass amounts of Avoidance or EHP to get it?

Basically I'm just wondering if Hit and Exp should be discussed more in terms of specific classes and how they benefit from it more than others? I apologize in advance if there are threads pertainign to such, but I'm wondering if there was one, encompassing thread that explores the benefits that each tank class could gain from these two stats?

There was a time when this was true
-Paladins valued more hit than expertise, because everything was a spell, and couldn't be dodged/parried
-DKs dual wielding really worried about parry-gibbing and the DW hit penalty
-Warriors and Bears craved expertise because everything was physical, parry-gibbing was the end of the world

Today (3.3.5), none of that is true.
-Paladin tank abilities of note are all physical and can be dodged/parried, making expertise just as valuable as hit
-DKs got talents to help out hit rating, and they are supposed to use slower DPS weapons, lowering parries.
-Parry hastes was turned off on a lot of bosses, so all tanks worried less about parry-gibs. I mean, are you *really* worried about Sindy and LDW parrying you on a frequent basis??

So no, discussing on class basis is no longer valid.

Dragaan
06-27-2010, 12:44 AM
5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are bad.

Obviously, this goes for progression raiding only. I know I'm not the only tank out there who starts to value threat stats MUCH more after bosses are on farm. When I know I'm not going to die, I'm not going to ignore hit/expertise/etc. I make sure I'm capped on fights like marrowgar, rotface, dreamwalker, deathwhisper...basically all the "unlimited" bosses. It's always nice to add to a raid's dps. Dps is dps, whether it comes from the tank or a dps class. Raids always want more dps. Hell, on most ICC25 heroic fights now, I wear a hybrid set with 2p dps 2p tank, hit and expertise hardcap, dps trinkets, and a dps ring or two. I think the only fights I don't wear gear similar to that is the limited attempt bosses and blood princes (since I tank both melee princes - I like getting use out of my unidentifiable organ on this fight, lol). Most other tanks who've been farming the content for a while are doing the same.

Also, when you get to the point where your raid is almost fully-geared, occasionally it can get a bit hairy trying to hold off of dps warriors or feral druids pushing 20k+ from the start of the fight if you are in max survival gear with very little hit/expertise (with an md and just a single wave tricks from the start). I never want my dps to have to hold back, even if only for a split second at the start of a fight.

uglie
06-27-2010, 01:27 AM
i personally find hit smooths out my "rotation" for those times on farm fights that i tend to go into dps mode, i.e. dbs when its not time to taunt or when not actively tanking fester on inhales. I've also noticed once or twice my first icy touch missing and the boss goes straight for the dps. and no my dps doesnt normally ToT or MD simply because when IT does land there's almost no reason for it. But if i was really worried about the dps dying in that split second they have aggro i could just as easily taunt to pull the boss.

Dreadski
06-27-2010, 08:12 AM
Obviously, this goes for progression raiding only. I know I'm not the only tank out there who starts to value threat stats MUCH more after bosses are on farm. When I know I'm not going to die, I'm not going to ignore hit/expertise/etc. I make sure I'm capped on fights like marrowgar, rotface, dreamwalker, deathwhisper...basically all the "unlimited" bosses. It's always nice to add to a raid's dps. Dps is dps, whether it comes from the tank or a dps class. Raids always want more dps. Hell, on most ICC25 heroic fights now, I wear a hybrid set with 2p dps 2p tank, hit and expertise hardcap, dps trinkets, and a dps ring or two. I think the only fights I don't wear gear similar to that is the limited attempt bosses and blood princes (since I tank both melee princes - I like getting use out of my unidentifiable organ on this fight, lol). Most other tanks who've been farming the content for a while are doing the same.

Also, when you get to the point where your raid is almost fully-geared, occasionally it can get a bit hairy trying to hold off of dps warriors or feral druids pushing 20k+ from the start of the fight if you are in max survival gear with very little hit/expertise (with an md and just a single wave tricks from the start). I never want my dps to have to hold back, even if only for a split second at the start of a fight.

Clearly, for farm content. Rarely is the subject brought up in a context where I want to speak to it.

swelt
06-28-2010, 09:05 AM
The problem with the OP is the usual one of generalisation that just won't die in the old EH debates. The tendency is to treat "stack stamina" like some kind of mantra. If I was going to try to drill in a mantra, it would be "gem stam, but gear for the encounter".

If you take the average boss fight, then on average you can get away with very little hit and expertise, because on average the misses and parries will be largely offset by the quality of your rotation, the support you get from external threat, etc. Take the same gearset into an add fight like LDW or VDW or even LK and you need to think about hit and expertise in a totally different way. Now the impact of 2-3 parries/misses in a row could be much more significant... a Fanatic cleaves a rogue in half, an Abomination pukes the melee, a raging spirit does a spirit shriek on the raid or you miss your shockwave on the enraged shambler. These are not average things, these are encounter specific considerations.

Dreadski
06-28-2010, 09:41 AM
^^ Yes that's the accepted statement about EH -> avoidance once something becomes farm, but who does that in actuality? I don't see doing anything differently when it comes to EH. Maybe switching in gear for more hit for taunts, but they already did that. I think the stats are trivial and the margin for increasing threat is....marginal. The stats just don't matter that much. And even after they've killed H-25-Arthas, they still gem and enchant for stamina and armor.

Gothmogg
06-28-2010, 11:10 AM
Thanks folks, I appreciate the posters who were trying to see this from my perspective, and to those who added a progression point of view as well. For our situation though, we're not talking End Game Progression raiding and gearing levels. I doubt we'll even push through enough of ICC to even attempt some of the bosses. Thats just how our guild is, we're casual and we don't want to get into that progression aspect again. So what I've found as a general concensus is to gear for the content, based on our abilities at our disposal. I'm absolutely blown away by some of the progression tanks stats that I've looked over, but for our standpoint, that's way out of our league :-). I can't even imagine having 45K Health, 32K AC AND 70% Avoidance...thats just monkey business!!

Aggathon
06-28-2010, 11:26 AM
Here's the thing though like... progression doesn't necesarrily mean end game, it just means the level you are currently progressing. I'm currently in the same spot with my new priest. I've quit raiding full time and have only really "raided" with my warrior twice to help my old guild when they had some missing tanks and just needed help on a couple bosses. My new guild is really casual and we have to PuG a lot of our spots because we don't even have a full 10M raiding roster.

However, I still want to be optimal on my priest and I'm even working on a completely separate holy set so that I don't gimp my disc set trying to build a holy set. Putting in a 30 stam gem is the exact same amount of honor or emblems or whatever as a 20 expertise gem. Hybrid gems cost the same amount of honor but less emblems, and gems are USUALLY about the same price on the AH, but results may vary. Putting in a 30 stam gem instead of an expertise gem or whatever takes the exact same amount of effort and if you're casual and don't plan on downing stuff why not go ahead and be optimal? If everyone gears in an optimal fashion it doesn't take that much time and you might kill an extra boss or two rather than hitting the same boss not well geared/enchanting and just calling it quits there every week.

IMO the only difference between casual and hardxcore is the amount of time hardxcore raiders spend raiding. I have only done PuGs and a few hours at night just running heroics and stuff before I go to bed and already have my priest pretty much decked with very VERY little effort (at least compared to the effort I used to put into my characters). I'd also contend that it might even be more important for casual people to gem/enchant optimally because it gives you more leeway in a casual environment.

Idk, i guess I just don't buy the argument "I gem expertise because I'm casual even though I know I should gem stam." If you are casual you probably don't even need to do as much TPS if your DPS aren't all star premotion quality 14k+ DPSers.

45k HP isn't really that hard to hit, neither is 32k AC. My warrior has VERY few pieces from ICC25 normal and zero pieces from ICC25 hardmodes. Most of it is just badge gear and ToC25 gear (granted my shoulders and helm are 258 T9, but I could have just as easily gotten the 251 T10) that really isn't that hard to get ahold of. I haven't gotten an upgrade in like 6 months. Right now my armory is sitting at just over 43k HP and just over 38K armor. If I switch in some trinkets I can get to just under 48k HP and about 34.7k Armor.

Achieving those kind of stats is NOT out of your league and it will make you so much easier to heal and will help you guys even if you're just really casual.

Idk... I have 81 hit and 23 expertise and I have zero, absolutely ZERO, problems with threat. AoE threat, single target threat, tricks or not I have no problems holding aggro, I just don't think it matters that much.

Edit: okay I guess that's not 100% accurate, I had problems with a ret pally with shadowmourne who was pulling off my secondary target that I wasn't focusing my threat on.

Gothmogg
06-28-2010, 12:07 PM
Thanks Aggathon, I should perhaps clarify my postion I guess. You are absolutely correct in your assesment, and I should have just clearly stated that my maximum attainable gear level for my current commitment and raid availability will be Triumph gear and the occasional frost emblem piece. We May get back to the first 6-8 bosses in ICC, but not for some time. This of course does not have anything to do with progression guilds or players and I was not trying to disparage their input or their ideas. Merely stating that I'm about maxed out for my level of gear and it's not on the same level as the other gear, so when making comaprrisons on what to gem/enchant for or what are "accepted" levels of certain stats, I'm basing it on this lower level of gear rather than looking at it from the top teir level.

Im not sure if your "Expertise" to "Stamina" gemming comment was just to show opposite ends of the spectrum, but I would never gem for straight hit or expertise, although I would occasionally gloss over the option of an Exp/Sta gem IF it made a socket bonus AND it would put me at my 25 Exp (thats just where I personaly like to be, no other reason) and I could swap out something else. I understand that the gear should come with enough avoidance and hit and expertise that we shouldn't need to gem or enchant for it specifically. You guys have been a great help, Tankspot is full of awesome folks that spend a lot of time and effort makign it easier for the casual players, such as myself, gain a better understanding of our classes and our roles., Thanks for everyones hard work !!

Aggathon
06-28-2010, 12:23 PM
Okay cool, sorry I think I misinterpreted your last post. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions like that. I just come from a server that has people that are exceptionally bad at the game (was in a VoA10 last night where a DK was doing 885 DPS, I don't care if you just hit 80 885 DPS was bad at 70 pre-3.0, lol) and frequently give the excuse "oh well I don't really care what I gem because I'm casual," and I end up seeing things like 20 parry gems everywhere and gemming setups that look like rainbow bright had a hand in it.

So ya... I totally misinterpreted what you were saying, sorry about that and thanks for the clarification.

cycloni
06-29-2010, 05:12 AM
After reading through this thread and the others about the topic, ive found myself (as a Dk tank) bringing several tank weaps with me. I have have a shadow's edge I tank with as working the quest, I have a Heroic Claymore for when I need hit and a heroic dw 10 man mace (cant think of the name right now) if I decided I need exp. Do any other DK tanks find themselves doing this?

Gothmogg
06-29-2010, 01:22 PM
LMFAO ...OMG "gemming setups that look like rainbow bright had a hand in it."...thats classic...I just spewed Pepsi on my monitor when I read that...I am ripping that off totally and un-ashamedly !

Gothmogg
06-29-2010, 01:25 PM
On a seperate note, I agree Cycloni, I too am finding that the DK is behving as badly as my Warrior (ok not QUITE as bad as my warrior) for having TOOOO much gear in my bags, looking to min/max depending on my situation. My Warrior (bless her little heart, I started her in Beta...ahh those were the days )...has 6 complete full sets of different gear. Thats like 3 bags of gear I lug around so I can switch from my "block" set to my "Avoidance" set to my "Max HP Set" to my "Raid OT" set, to my "Heroic Instance" set...and one DPS set just in case I'm feeling "Choppy Choppy" one day....

Dragaan
06-29-2010, 07:01 PM
I too am finding that the DK is behving as badly as my Warrior (ok not QUITE as bad as my warrior) for having TOOOO much gear in my bags, looking to min/max depending on my situation.

Man....I have 4.5 bags (22+ slots) FULL of gear for *most* of my sets/specs that I carry around with me at all times. The funny thing is that I really can't even put any of it in the bank because I use EVERY piece just about every day (and many items I use constantly throughout the day). My bank carries the rest of the gear that I don't use quite as often, such as resist gear and most of my block/unhittable set pieces. People are constantly telling me that I'm nuts and I don't need this much gear on me, but the truth is I use ALL of it all the time. I really wish blizz would come out with bags specifically for armor, or at least make the backpack bigger (seriously....it's about damn time)!

I could leave most of this gear in the bank or simply delete/vendor it, as I don't NEED to use it. If I didn't min/max as much as I do though, I'd lose a lot of interest in the game, or at least in my warrior.

SGTphatboy
07-17-2010, 11:49 PM
152 hit and 21 expertise, i still need to get gear from ICC so i know both should go up. great thread thanks for all the info

Dedic
07-18-2010, 02:40 AM
@Gnome

First, I am in no way qualified to comment on threat problems.
That being said, let me comment on your threat problem ;D

Just kidding. As someone who hasn't been mired in theorycrafting or my own tanking philosophy, perhaps my thoughts will help:

Are your healers struggling to keep you alive? If not then perhaps you should focus less on EH than you currently do. Many of the posts here seem very absolutist to me, as if there is only one correct way of doing things. I submit that different situations require different solutions. Your situation may require a less traditional strategy.

If you are more than capable of surviving your current raids but can't seem to hold threat, then it seems to me that you should gear/gem/etc for threat a bit more until you find the balance between staying alive and holding threat. Only YOU will be able to find this balance, no matter how many leet tanks tell you how to tank.

(Sorry leet tanks, I joined this site to learn from you so don't hate me for this post, I just think there is a point where theorycrafting ends and individual situation begins)

Loganisis
07-19-2010, 12:27 PM
(Sorry leet tanks, I joined this site to learn from you so don't hate me for this post, I just think there is a point where theorycrafting ends and individual situation begins)

On the flip side - the theory-crafting can be seen as setting the target you wish to obtain :-)

Kazeyonoma
07-19-2010, 01:25 PM
the problem with going by "individual situations" is that often, it is the INDIVIDUAL who is making a mistake, blaming the general convention as wrong, and claiming their system is more true.

Bondiee
09-26-2010, 07:46 PM
The facts about Expertise and Hit in the current game.

Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.




Please sticky and attach strobe light. If this belongs in a better forum for a sticky please move. Thank you.

Hmm, I do not want to disrespect this thing, neither anything else. BUT ! Do you really people think that generalizing something is just right ?

Earlier today I have had a disccusion about the fact that if you go to LichKing Heroic 25 & you have Prot pala in raid, then you do not need a disco priest wasting talents in renewed hope, as he barely does anything else then bubbles... People swarmed me that I am noob, but think again ! Do you really need 3% damage reduction after each bubble if you got it covered by paly or do you need extra crit on heals if you do not cast them ( most of time )...

Now, about HP pool, expertise, hit, armor, avoidance, mitigance and all that crap overall.

It is well known that tanks always tended to go full stamina, stamina everywhere, ignoring most of other stats. Some time ago in TBC I were in an guild with my warrior tank & there was another warrior tank. He basicaly did go all stam, as most of the people did and I aimed for crushing immunity, which was wise choice to do , obviously. Either way, he was taken as MT ussualy because he had aprox 4k hp more then me, and in most cases he was taking huge spikes, and I was told when I get more HP, i Will MT... sigh, fail one

WoTLk & ICC
Almost Every tank does go for full stamina on everything, yes, I am aware that you will get slightly more passive heals via JoL & Leader of pact, but are you guys not forgeting something ? Hit does not have to be capped, but it is good think. As you will hit the boss each time and the empty space between the heals & hot ticks will be also covered by some minor selfheals, same goes for expertise ( lets assume u r dodge capped ). Each time boss does parry, u lost a chance for your weapon enchant proc ( does not matter which u did pick ) & u lost a chance to selfheal via JoL or LoP.... You might think it is nothing, as u ussualy get overhealed, but it is important in times between the heals.

JoL / LoP is based on Max HP, true dat, BUT ! If you miss every 2nd ability or boss does parry , what next ?
Threat ? After initial pull it is ussualy not a problem at all, even if u got full 277 geared people trying to improve their ego on your side.

Parry haste ? As little example, go to tank valanar + other melee mob together with 0 or dodge cap expertise ... healers will have really hard time to keep you alive, same goes for many other bosses.

Another point about not maxing stamina:
Tank with 40k HP unbuff did down LichKing & survived it, tank with 45k unbuff hp did down lichking & survived it, tank with 40k was called a noob, cuz low hp pool.

Imo, point of tanking is simple:
A:) Have sufficient ammount of health so healers can top you up before you die even if u take more then one hit in row or healers are not able to heal you at that point
B:) Once you reach A, get decent ammount of Avoidance ( dont get too much, else you would have problems with healers that heals after u take damage )
C:) After you reach A & B, get as much mitigance you can, so once you actually get hit, you get hit for as less damage you can take
D:) If you are healable without much stress & your HP pool is suffitient, get hit rating so you dont have to stress that much with TPS , but as well you will be able to count on your abilities - Not like your judgement or whatever else will miss and you have to wait xxx seconds for its CD
E:) Get expertise soft cap, so you dont have dodges
F:) Once you covered A, B, C, D & E, get more expertise, because it comes more defensive, as you will remove more parry hastes, therefor giving healers less stress & more time to react

Overall Opinion:
The world of warcraft is and will always be based on luck, wheter it comes to finding good people to play with, or RNG fights, random drops & roll( or whatever ) & tons of others things.
BUT, as raid performance goes, you should always try to remove as many random factors you can:

Example:
Deathwisper, new adds appeared, rogue that can tot u or hunter is MCed, u rely on your self only, therefor each miss or parry can lead to a DPS dying.
Saurfang - Oh shit, my taunt missed - or he did parry me & I did not avoid, he had 90% power & he 2 shoted me in less then a sec.
LK - I got shambling on me, second appear, my taunt missed, my avenger shield missed, by judgement missed, healers healing infest, even if hunter / rogue ToTed / Mded me I was unable to keep aggro, shamb came to one healer & shockwaved em all.

Those are bad scenarios, but it happends & it can cost you precious time, effort & everything else, just because u wanted to have 3k more useless HP

P.S.: Sorry if that post was too long, complicated, for someone perhaps wrong upside down, my english sux & perhaps I am trolling or whatever, but if you did not catch the points, then there is nothing else I can do.

amity
09-27-2010, 04:21 AM
You've made a lot of invalid points there. You, like most others overrate avoidance. Yes it gives you longer to live, but deaths occur in 5 second window frames; sometimes even less. It's the ability to take those 3 hits in a row because eventually it will happen unless you have 99%+ avoidance. IT WILL HAPPEN. and it shouldn't be a wipe because RNG occured and your tank got hit past his EH threshold. If you stack Stam+Armor however, damage becomes consistant. As you gear up you push 3 hits in to 4, 4 hits into 5 ect. Another point is that healers are going to heal you regardless of whether you take damage. It's how the ICC tanking-healing module works. Healers aren't going to stop their cast midway because they saw that you didn't take damage. Threat should never be the responsibility of the tanks gearing choice minus a MH weapon, you're job is to #1 Take the least amount of damage as possible then #2 Hold aggro. Not the other way around.

Raij
09-27-2010, 07:50 AM
Definitely agree, however capping expertise for parry hasting is fun! I only have 11 expertise in my normal set, although passively hit capped from gear, gemming for it is a complete waste. A dead tank does NO threat.

Bondiee
09-27-2010, 10:56 AM
Definitely agree, however capping expertise for parry hasting is fun! I only have 11 expertise in my normal set, although passively hit capped from gear, gemming for it is a complete waste. A dead tank does NO threat.

You really think that 2k HP difference because u geming all stamina will save your ass on parry haste or when healers cannot heal ye or something ? Ok, try following : Go to Ruby Sanctum, tank fire realm, in heroic mode.
1st try tank with 2 stamina trinkets & whatever ring & HP flask ( in my case 62kish )

2nd try use 245 armor trinket , trinket from onyxia, 245 onyx ring & flask of lesser resistance, I got , so am on lets say 6k hp less.

In first case, it is so very often to be 2 shotted, healers really stressing out , continously spaming me and even then it is questionable

In second case, I barely need to use cooldowns, if ever, because I barely get hit & either it will be melee or fire breath, I reduced melee by 72ish % ( + additional raid buffs / debuffs ) & reduced fire damage by aprox 50%.

So it was easier to survive or to be healed with 6k less HP. Fail one of yours, sir

Test 2:
Pure melee boss, Saurfang
Tank with 72kish hp ( 30% ), going stamina all the way & everywhere dead within 1 sec, just because he was low on cds, mytigance, avoidance
Me, equiped max avoidance & mytigance & CDs, 4p, salvation, 245 trinket, gunship trinket... and gues what ?! In entire fight, even tho I had 60kish HP only (12k less then other tank ), I never droped under 35% of my HP. So lets assume I would have gone full stamina, but droping from 100% to 0% in no time..

And I could continue

U guys even realize that by for example gemming pure stamina u gain 2-3k hp max ? And that 2-3k, even 10k HP will not save you from dying if you or other people in raid plays wrong !

Bondiee
09-27-2010, 11:05 AM
You've made a lot of invalid points there. You, like most others overrate avoidance. Yes it gives you longer to live, but deaths occur in 5 second window frames; sometimes even less. It's the ability to take those 3 hits in a row because eventually it will happen unless you have 99%+ avoidance. IT WILL HAPPEN. and it shouldn't be a wipe because RNG occured and your tank got hit past his EH threshold. If you stack Stam+Armor however, damage becomes consistant. As you gear up you push 3 hits in to 4, 4 hits into 5 ect. Another point is that healers are going to heal you regardless of whether you take damage. It's how the ICC tanking-healing module works. Healers aren't going to stop their cast midway because they saw that you didn't take damage. Threat should never be the responsibility of the tanks gearing choice minus a MH weapon, you're job is to #1 Take the least amount of damage as possible then #2 Hold aggro. Not the other way around.

And is it not what I am saying ? :)))))))))))))))))))
1) I said, get sufficient HP Pool ( u dont really need 100000 HP to make RS 25 HC ?
2) Get some avoidance ( RNG will always be there & dont get too much ! Balance it, you need to be hit after all anyways )
3) Get mitigance - Armor, resistance, block value, absorbs etc - Once you get hit, you want to be hit for low ammount, obvious
4) If you got 123, get hit - u wanna count on your abilities
5) If you got 1234, get expertise, but dont end only !at soft cap, because then parry will be more dangerous
6) If you got 12345, customize it to your like, u wanna get more useless hp, go for it.. u wanna do more DPS, go for it, u wanna have more bvalue, go for it, more crit, go for it, choise is yours

sifuedition
09-27-2010, 11:31 AM
I'm sorry but you obviously don't know how parry works. Having enough expertise does nothing to increase the number of parry. Many of your points have the same false assumptions.

@ the poster before you (blondiie I think?). I disbelieve anything about your stated experience with the 72k tank dying in under 1 second (or even taking less damage than you). First you stated he did not have CDs and you did, so we are obviously comparing apples and oranges off the bat. Next, if his gear is good enough to have 72k hp, he also has a healthy amount of dodge/parry/armor etc to put him into the dr curves. You cannot gem and enchant iLvl 200 blues to that hp.

Akeber
09-27-2010, 11:42 AM
Ahh yes, another new registrant coming in, misusing terminology, and coming up with "grand ideas" that all the tanks on this forum have never considered. /facepalm

How much health is "enough"? Is enough health the amount that a tank had for world first LKHM kill, and no more? Obviously that raid completed the encounter with a tank that had X health, so shoulnd't everyone be able to? No. More health will always mean you're easier to keep alive, there is no point in current gear where you have "enough". Unless your raid has killed HM LK on 25, you're in no position to say when you have enough, keep stacking it. Unless you're facerolling your way through and farming all the Heroic content in the game weekly, there is always a challenging encounter ahead that will require the most EH you can muster. You're also confused about the definition of EH, or "effective health". It doesn't just mean stamina, it means armor/resistance as well, or "mitigation" (not "mytigance").


U guys even realize that by for example gemming pure stamina u gain 2-3k hp max ?
I'll concede that. On the flipside though, what do you gain by "balanced" gemming/chanting? A fraction of a % of avoidance? Maybe some hit/expertise to boost your threat by a fraction of a %. Neither offer as much benefit in progression situations as that 2-3K HP, so stam is still the best way to go.


5) If you got 1234, get expertise, but dont end only !at soft cap, because then parry will be more dangerous"
It's great that you are aware of parry haste, althoug you seem to misunderstand how it works, as it doesn't become "more dangerous" as you reach the dodge cap. If the boss parry hastes, then every point of expertise will help reduce parries, all the way to cap. That being said, do you know how many bosses in WoTLK have parry haste enabled? Here is the list:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=27934&rb_v=viewtopic

That's 2 bosses in all of ICC, one of which doesn't matter because the bosses physical attacks are of little concern, and I'll concede that sindy can be a little dangerous when she parries. Halion also parry hastes, and there is a nice thread about expertise capping specifically for that encounter, while maintaining as much EH as possible, so you're not telling anyone anything we don't already know.

Please don't use DBS as an example when talking about tank survival, he hits like a little girl using foam swords for weapons. You could wear 1/4 dps gear and survive him on 25 HM mode (I have).

Most tanks already throw on threat gear for farm fights, we don't wear our EH gear. We swap to dps trinkets, older tank gear gemmed for threat, maybe a few dps pieces etc. etc., but you have to keep your best set, the one gemmed/chanted entirely for EH, ready to go when you get to the progression encounters. If you have no more progression encounters left, by all means, gear how you like. If you're at that level you don't need to come here for advice anyway.

kopcap
09-28-2010, 09:14 AM
I am very new to tanking, but I would bet that a good keybinds layout triumphs all over hit and expertise. I have seen so many horrible set ups on the forums, I have no idea how people are hitting things when they need them. Just put a little effort into keybinds, its not rocket science really. And it goes a long way.

Bodasafa
09-29-2010, 10:11 PM
I just realized someone jumped in and necro'd this thread from like 3 months ago. I'm glad a bunch of community members jumped in for me. Really I don't have the time to correct all the things said by Bondiee in their post, but I will correct this.


Parry haste ? As little example, go to tank valanar + other melee mob together with 0 or dodge cap expertise ... healers will have really hard time to keep you alive, same goes for many other bosses.

I have dodge cap expertise and have done just what you described with absolutely no problem or complaints from my healers. Even before the buff increased. Not to mention Council is not a fight with parry haste.

Please get your facts straight before presenting false opinions to confuse others with.

marklar
10-01-2010, 11:13 AM
It is well known that tanks always tended to go full stamina, stamina everywhere, ignoring most of other stats. Some time ago in TBC I were in an guild with my warrior tank & there was another warrior tank. He basicaly did go all stam, as most of the people did and I aimed for crushing immunity, which was wise choice to do , obviously. Either way, he was taken as MT ussualy because he had aprox 4k hp more then me, and in most cases he was taking huge spikes, and I was told when I get more HP, i Will MT... sigh, fail one


you mean passive uncrushability?
why? you didn't like shield block?

iirc, you had to give up quite a bit to get there passively.

Bondiee
10-03-2010, 11:47 PM
So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.
I just realized someone jumped in and necro'd this thread from like 3 months ago. I'm glad a bunch of community members jumped in for me. Really I don't have the time to correct all the things said by Bondiee in their post, but I will correct this.


************************************************** ************************************************** *

I have dodge cap expertise and have done just what you described with absolutely no problem or complaints from my healers. Even before the buff increased. Not to mention Council is not a fight with parry haste.

Please get your facts straight before presenting false opinions to confuse others with.

Lets get things clear, shall we ?

First, you tell that STACKING MINDLESSSLY STAMINA is good !
U say it in a way, so most of people understand it : GO FULL STAMINA ! Or am I wrong ?

************************************************** ************
now, lets take a closer look @ your own profile

21 gem slots over all
None of them gives you bonus if you put in only stamina gems

Now, if you put only stamina there, you get following:
21x30 = 630 stamina = 6300 hp ( no talents / buffs )
You will / might be lacking some hit, expertise, dodge, parry, or whatever.

Now, if you match every socket bonus with 10xx+15stam
519 stamina = 5190 hp ( no talents / buffs )
And you can get whatever stat you desire !

So the difference is 1110 Health ( no talents / no buffs )

Since I do not know how exactly the buff scaling strings works, I will keep quiet, but i assume that after buffs you are at around 1400-1500 difference.

You might want to add icc 30%, and the difference overall is what ? 1820 hp ? 2k hp ?

************************************************** ****

My question 1:
Will that 2k hp save you ?

My question 2:
Was it worth it to go all stamina, even tho you will miss or get parried often ? Or you traded it for avoidance or mitigation ?

My question 3:
Even tho, that you have said in 1st topic, that stacking all stamina is BEST, why do you have ARMOR pene gems in your gear and one expertise + stam ?
*** Was it to improove aggro or to increase your DPS ? Or is it for PVP in Pve gear or ?

My question 4:
Why were you so very disrespectfull, saying somewhere : All i see is new registrant coming & saying bull****s ?
**** Might have been someone else, I am bit tired and I did read too many things, if so, /apologize



************************************************** *************
To get it clear & short, you are respected tank in a good guild, which means many people will do as you say, even tho you are simply not right. You are saying that going all stamina is good, forgeting everything else, even tho the difference in final hp pool is very minor, and even then, after writing all that, you do not stand behind what you have said and doing it differently, because you do not gem full stamina your self. Perhaps because you did not need to ?

Self explanatory ?

Bondiee
10-03-2010, 11:51 PM
you mean passive uncrushability?
why? you didn't like shield block?

iirc, you had to give up quite a bit to get there passively.

To get 104.xx, cannot remember, it was not only about spaming shield block, now, was it ? Even shieldblock did not give you crush imunity.

edit: 102.4 i think it was, still not sure

Bodasafa
10-04-2010, 09:05 AM
Lets get things clear, shall we ?First, you tell that STACKING MINDLESSSLY STAMINA is good !
U say it in a way, so most of people understand it : GO FULL STAMINA ! Or am I wrong ?

Yes I suggest stacking stamina because it has been proven time and time again on these forums for most of this expansion (close to 2 years) that it is the correct way to gem.



My question 1:
Will that 2k hp save you ?
Yes it will because though the difference looks smaller without the buffs/talents you left out, its actually a huge difference with the talents, buffs, and the ICC 30% buff. You cannot multiply dodge or armor with that 30% only health.


My question 2:
Was it worth it to go all stamina, even tho you will miss or get parried often ? Or you traded it for avoidance or mitigation ?
I don't miss often, not enough that I notice or loose aggro because of it.

The mitigation I could get is NONE, because you cannot gem for Armor which is the only source of mitigation.

Avoidance gains are minimal and less than health gains for the exact reason I explained above. You get a buff to your health only in ICC and you actually get a debuff for your avoidance via Chill of the Throne.

So why would you build up something your getting nerfed in (avoidance) when you can build up something your getting a 30% buff in (health)?


My question 3:
Even tho, that you have said in 1st topic, that stacking all stamina is BEST, why do you have ARMOR pene gems in your gear and one expertise + stam ?
*** Was it to improove aggro or to increase your DPS ? Or is it for PVP in Pve gear or ?
You looked at my armory when I was on a off raiding day. I was using my 2 pc gloves and shoulders with armor pen gems for ARENA and BG's to get the 2pc +20% Shield Slam and Shockwave damage. I change those gems back to stamina when its raid time.


My question 4:
Why were you so very disrespectfull, saying somewhere : All i see is new registrant coming & saying bull****s ?
**** Might have been someone else, I am bit tired and I did read too many things, if so, /apologize
Lets take a look at what I said.

The active community members that answer questions here day in and day out are becoming just a bit tired of the uniformed nonsense new registrants are posting. It becomes hard for us to tell if were just getting trolled or if someone is genuinely misinformed and needs help. In either case the active community members will respond discrediting these false posts so that others do not become confused about the facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we respect that here. But publish nonsense and we will call you on it.
I fail to see how that was out of line or disrespectful.

Bodasafa
10-04-2010, 09:12 AM
To get 104.xx, cannot remember, it was not only about spaming shield block, now, was it ? Even shieldblock did not give you crush imunity.

edit: 102.4 i think it was, still not sure

There is a total of ONE boss in all of Wrath of the Lich King where being block capped will help you. Heroic 25 player Anub in ToC. Its specifically for making the adds easier to tank.

That's it.

Bodasafa
10-04-2010, 09:21 AM
I just realized that most of this is probably moot.

We have a 4.0 dropping in a matter of weeks and Cata coming in a matter of months. So realistically with things as easy as they are in normal/old raids you can probably gem spirit and it wouldn't matter to much with high end gear. If your still working heroic raids then it applies.

Though what I posted is correct currently, do what you want, it will change soon anyway.

Kazeyonoma
10-04-2010, 10:06 AM
but even in cata, unless they really change ratios (i don't see this happening) for avoidance, as well as change the way healing is going to work (it is to some extent, but higher EH still seems like a more steady way to keep yourself alive over hoping for avoidance streaks while the healer tops you off), EH should still be the way to go in cataclysm until proven wrong. it's been the case since pre-bc, it was the case in tbc (except brutallus, but that was a gear cap issue--you couldn't gem/gear enough stam to survive more than 2 hits anyways), and was absolutely predominant in wotlk especially icc (with the exception of the add tanks on anub'arak).

Boda has done nothing to be disrespectful to you bondiee, but you looking up his armory to try to attack his personal character is however something that is disrespectful. This isn't the wow forums, you don't get e-peen points by flashing your armory achievements. What boda has stated in this thread is 100% accurate and no amount of anecdotal evidence that you provide will prove it wrong in this current state of the expansion. Health > avoidance, and in terms of gemming, rotation > small gains from gemming which in turn lower your EH. something you cannot afford to do if you're pushing hardmodes as progression.

Loganisis
10-04-2010, 10:36 AM
grrr.... confused

Bondiee
10-04-2010, 11:43 AM
Ok, seems you are out of arguments, fair enough. I did not come here to troll anyways, but seems you dont even put things together.

Very quickly.

The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !

Armor is only source of mitigation ( your words )? Are you very sure ?

Interesting that you do actually regem back to go full stamina.. Some people are able to kill endgame boss with 60k hp, but you need 5k more ? Even tho you got better gear then them ? I mean, you got more avoidance, mitigance, armor etc.. Will your stamina hunger ever end ? Or if you had a chance you would have gone 250 000 for Lichking normal ?

About 102.4. Seems you did not catch it, I said, in TBC almost everyone was going for stamina, ignoring crushes, therefor being less helpfull to raids.

And in WOTLK, almost everyone, apart few enlightened people, goes full stamina, ignoring hit, expertise etc, making it just harder for them selfs.


Would you benefit more from corpse tongue on Saurfang, valanar, gunship, rotface, festergut, putricide, or would you actually benefit more from stamina trinket ? Would you benefit more from hit on deatwhisper, valithria, lichking, halion ad tanking, or you need more stamina ? I tanked TOGC since I had 37k unbuffed paladin, tanked ICC 25 since 39k unbuffed, heroic since 42k unbuffed with 0%, and I never had problems with having too low hp, and my healers were not overgeared either.

Yet, I have seen, 100s of different tanks, in same raid with me, having whatsoever gear compositions you can think of, and they take more damage, keep less aggro % so on..................

*********************************
You, have stated: That going FULL stamina is ONLY & Best way to play a tank class.

I, am stating, that BALANCING every aspect of your tanking by BALACING the stats, which is MITIGANCE, AVOIDANCE, HEALTH, TPS & even DPS, if applicable is a best & wise choice to go.

In other words, when you get certain ammount of stamina, you dont need more. When you get certain ammount of hit, you dont need more, when you get certain ammoun of avoidance, spell power, mana regen, crit rate, haste, armor pen, and whatever u think of, you do not need more.

Therefor, stating:

MAXING ONE STAT IS ONLY AND BEST WAY and it is ONLY THAT WAY, is wrong.

Amen
*********************************

This is my last post here, because some people will never open their eyes, yet they are more respected & blind crowds will follow.

It goes same in real life, politics, media, and everything.

In TV they will say, do something this way, it is best & blind crowds will most likely do it. Later on, TV will apologize : Sorry, it was not best, if you do it that way, it is slightly better. And blind crowds will be like, Oh My God, RIGHT ! Why were I so stupid not to realize it my self & do it right ?

Even worse example:
Some time in the past, someone said that planet is round, not flat... They killed him... What happened later ? OH, crap, planet is really round...

Bad way to explain it, but this is how situation is

And yes, I will stay behind my words, ALWAYS, even if I were only one thinking that. Because I am sure.

Ty for your time, farewell, warrior. May the spirit of Ragefire enlight your blinded mind !

My question 4:
Why were you so very disrespectfull, saying somewhere : All i see is new registrant coming & saying bull****s ?
**** Might have been someone else, I am bit tired and I did read too many things, if so, /apologize

See taht too, I said, might have been SOMEONE else.

marklar
10-04-2010, 12:09 PM
To get 104.xx, cannot remember, it was not only about spaming shield block, now, was it ? Even shieldblock did not give you crush imunity.

edit: 102.4 i think it was, still not sure

well actually, yes it was about spamming shield block. i think perhaps you misunderstood some of the tanking mechanics in TBC. shield block was on a 5s CD with 2 charges, and gave you a +75% chance to block. it's pretty easy to see how that eliminated crushing blows in most encounters, right?

i only recall a few encounters were bosses swung fast enough and hit hard enough so that crushes even came into play for warriors. even if you had an uncrushable set, it was something you'd lug around and only put on in certain circumstances, not use as your main set of tanking gear. you had to give up a LOT of stats to get uncrushable passively.

Loganisis
10-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Now, if you put only stamina there, you get following:
21x30 = 630 stamina = 6300 hp ( no talents / buffs )
You will / might be lacking some hit, expertise, dodge, parry, or whatever.

Now, if you match every socket bonus with 10xx+15stam
519 stamina = 5190 hp ( no talents / buffs )
And you can get whatever stat you desire !

So the difference is 1110 Health ( no talents / no buffs )

Since I do not know how exactly the buff scaling strings works, I will keep quiet, but i assume that after buffs you are at around 1400-1500 difference.

You might want to add icc 30%, and the difference overall is what ? 1820 hp ? 2k hp ?


The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !

From pure gemming - from a warrior standpoint:

630 vs 519
630 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.09 (warrior talent) = 755 sta
519 *1.1 * 1.09 = 622 sta

755 sta * 10 = 7550 HP * 1.3 (ICC buff) = 9815
622 sta * 10 = 6220 HP * 1.3 (ICC buff) = 8086

So it's a difference of 1729 HP against magic damage (because your other balanced stats, dodge/parry don't matter and you don't need the hit/exp to maintain threat)

Against physical damage, let's assume 71% damage reduction (I think that's what I have atm) to get EHP.

9815 * 1/(1-.71) = 33845 EHP
8086 * 1/(1-.71) = 27883 EHP

That's 5962 points of physical damage that can be taken without dying between tank 1 who gemmed pure Sta and tank 2 who gemmed rainbow. And that's at my current 71% DR. As armor increases the difference becomes even more prounced. At 74% it becomes a 6650 EHP difference.



So the difference is not less than 2k health, it's nearly 6k at 71% DR and scales as DR increase (okay, it's less than 2k for magic damage calculations).



Tanks who care give their healers bigger fail cushions, not hope that RNG strikes.... ;-)

MellvarTank
10-04-2010, 12:32 PM
There is a thread about this located here: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?66564-Why-We-Do-What-We-Do-(An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics)

If you need more threat and your rotation is perfect, gear for hit/expertise. Isn't that the point of this thread?

Kazeyonoma
10-04-2010, 01:06 PM
Ok, seems you are out of arguments, fair enough. I did not come here to troll anyways, but seems you dont even put things together.

Very quickly.

The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !

Armor is only source of mitigation ( your words )? Are you very sure ?

Interesting that you do actually regem back to go full stamina.. Some people are able to kill endgame boss with 60k hp, but you need 5k more ? Even tho you got better gear then them ? I mean, you got more avoidance, mitigance, armor etc.. Will your stamina hunger ever end ? Or if you had a chance you would have gone 250 000 for Lichking normal ?


end of discussion, we're talking about hardmode progression, you're talking about regular where you can wear spirit gear and get kills at this point. EH discussions are ALWAYS about cutting edge progression. farm bosses, DONT MATTER in these discussions because often times YOU ALREADY OUT GEAR IT.

Bovinity
10-04-2010, 01:17 PM
end of discussion, we're talking about hardmode progression, you're talking about regular where you can wear spirit gear and get kills at this point. EH discussions are ALWAYS about cutting edge progression. farm bosses, DONT MATTER in these discussions because often times YOU ALREADY OUT GEAR IT.

That. Like I posted in the LK 10 thread, we used a feral tank with cat gems and trinkets because it was farm content, not progression. There's a big difference. That doesn't mean, "ArP gems are optimal for tanking! Stamina is dumb!" it means we could have probably used a shaman to tank and been ok.

And stop trying to hide behind the, "Misunderstood visionary" stuff. You're not a visionary just because no one agrees with you. It usually just means you're wrong.

Bodasafa
10-04-2010, 01:52 PM
The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !
Loganisis already corrected this for you in a post above, so I won't repeat.


Armor is only source of mitigation ( your words )? Are you very sure ?
I am 100% sure, try reading some of the stickies on this site. Particularly this one: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40760-Mitigation. Satrina has been a pillar of the wow tanking community since this game started.

If you disagree with that then you are trolling and just here to argue.


About 102.4. Seems you did not catch it, I said, in TBC almost everyone was going for stamina, ignoring crushes, therefor being less helpfull to raids.
Really is bringing up what tanks did an entire expansion OVER 2 Years Ago, really relevant in this thread? or at all?

I think not. Let the past be the past please.


My question 4:
Why were you so very disrespectfull, saying somewhere : All i see is new registrant coming & saying bull****s ?
**** Might have been someone else, I am bit tired and I did read too many things, if so, /apologize

See taht too, I said, might have been SOMEONE else.
Try proof reading and checking things then. This is not a chat window, you have time to check things before you hit the submit reply button, so don't get all upset with me cause I called you out for trying to call me out.


This is my last post here, because some people will never open their eyes, yet they are more respected & blind crowds will follow.
Well I wish you well then. I honestly don't know why your so upset. If you read half the information on this site you would understand what is correct and what is not. I understand it is in peoples nature to want to investigate and discover new better ways to do something.. however.

We are at the end of this expansion. There are people on this site that have spent countess hours theory crafting to the final decimal the information you read. If you think you have a better way you have to prove it with real math and examples.

A lot of I have seen, I feel, I think, means nothing if you cannot support it.

The main stream information here is right for a reason, this is not a 2 party polictical system where people are trying to out do one another for gain. This site is here to inform people on the best possible way to go about things with the combined efforts of a community.

Basically your entire platform of argument is EH (Effective Health, Armor + Stamina) or aka Stacking Stamina vs. Avoidance (random chance to avoid damage). The argument is old, tired, and has been discussed a million times over. It has been proven that in ICC (which is what this thread is about, and more over threat in ICC) that EH is the correct way to gear.

Your wrong, accept it and be a better tank for understanding why you are wrong.

ironsides
10-05-2010, 07:32 AM
Bottom line is expertise/stam have very minimal effects on threat. My guild just downed halion hm last week and we had several wipes where I died to like a 69 overkill. As well as many close calls. In this type of progression survivability is paramount, being able to do slightly more threat to the boss doesn't matter one bit. The fact is, and it has been stated dozens of times in this thread, if you can't hold threat on a boss it is not hit or expertise causing it. It is either incorrect rotations or poor play by the dps in your guild (misdirects/failure to drop threat), or possibly even poor play on your own part like forgetting to vigilance or not threating the right targets. I see tanks that gem expertise for socket bonuses all the time on my server and it makes me cringe.

My job is to survive and that's how I will always gem. The only real issue is parry hastes, and even on Halion who parry hastes (one of the only bosses that do) I don't gem for exp.

Kaz said it best, if your talking about easy content, you could wear dps trinkets and still kill the boss if you want threat. If your talking about "cutting edge progression" you better get your gems right and survive the encounter, in the end nobody cares about the numbers, just the kill.

Bondiee
10-10-2010, 12:58 AM
My last think, I did not even bother seeing whatever you write here. I just do not understand how blind can you be

A.: You said the 2k Hp will save you, I never droped under 5k, even in hardest situations ( with normal heals )
B.: I do not need ToTs / MDs on everything
C.: I got xxx stamina less then 99% of other tanks with equal gear as me, and yet, I live much longer then any of them.
D.: http://tfp2010.jimdo.com/class-guides/paladin/protection/ , cheer, kk, ty
E.: You say parry haste is not present in some places, just because you installed crappy addon, incorect
F.: If I miss / get parried / dodged 2x in row with righteous shield, I lost Libram stacks, therefor taking more damage
G.: I am almost certain, that you are one of those guys, who says Dodge > Parry, even tho you do not see benefits of parry.
H.: In end, it is basicaly explained on TFP, with a nice pic included.

Cya

Bondiee
10-10-2010, 01:01 AM
Bottom line is expertise/stam have very minimal effects on threat. My guild just downed halion hm last week and we had several wipes where I died to like a 69 overkill. As well as many close calls. In this type of progression survivability is paramount, being able to do slightly more threat to the boss doesn't matter one bit. The fact is, and it has been stated dozens of times in this thread, if you can't hold threat on a boss it is not hit or expertise causing it. It is either incorrect rotations or poor play by the dps in your guild (misdirects/failure to drop threat), or possibly even poor play on your own part like forgetting to vigilance or not threating the right targets. I see tanks that gem expertise for socket bonuses all the time on my server and it makes me cringe.

My job is to survive and that's how I will always gem. The only real issue is parry hastes, and even on Halion who parry hastes (one of the only bosses that do) I don't gem for exp.

Kaz said it best, if your talking about easy content, you could wear dps trinkets and still kill the boss if you want threat. If your talking about "cutting edge progression" you better get your gems right and survive the encounter, in the end nobody cares about the numbers, just the kill.

About that, I had tanks, with similar gear on Halion 25 HC, but they had 6k more hp then me, and due to parry gibs, dying in like 1 sec.
Meanwhile I was there with 55k hp and never droped under 10k.. So ye, if u forget other stats, u need stamina, because u get nuked.

As for "Hard Encounters", LK HC Melee hits does not hurt a lot, Shamblings can be easily kited, u dont even need hunter / rogue to assist, if you are "smart" enough to outplay them, soulreaper is easy covered by CDs rotation.

And ye, you gem for suvivability ( so you think ), but you dont realize each miss, can mean less survivabilty, same goes for parries..

How does miss affect it ? Demo shout, thunderclap ( if not covered by somene else ), each time you hit, and if u got jol up, you most likely get healed for 1400is, so you covered 1400 is difference in HP pool ( difference betweewn geming full stam or balancing stats ) just because you did actually hit .

Dunno how much "Magical HP you got", I was tanking RS 25 HC with 55 k hp, it was PuG, so we did not down it, but I never droped under 10k...hmm :< And no, I did not use CDs all the time, nor I had some massive overheals, I just used 245 onyx ring & flask of lesser resistance, and got selfhealed by some of 1400 hps, due to JoL / LoP.

Bondiee
10-10-2010, 01:08 AM
end of discussion, we're talking about hardmode progression, you're talking about regular where you can wear spirit gear and get kills at this point. EH discussions are ALWAYS about cutting edge progression. farm bosses, DONT MATTER in these discussions because often times YOU ALREADY OUT GEAR IT.

Oh, yes, now you say, times of progression, you already outgear it..

Look @ undergeared project, as example... Fester gut with 20% downed in full blue raid, did they need that stamina from gear ? Err, no

Progression ? yes, of course your progression can be hard if you got no clue what you doing, you just mindlessly, as from tank view, think that going full stam ( so you get 1400 hp more ), will make a difference. Obviously then it is harder for you to progress.

And uhm, did not mister Bodasafa STATED that GOING MINDLESSLY FULL STAMINA is only way & best way to go ? :))

icantfindone
10-10-2010, 02:43 AM
My last think, I did not even bother seeing whatever you write here. I just do not understand how blind can you be

Did anyone else lol at this sentence? Kinda ironic statement.


A.: You said the 2k Hp will save you, I never droped under 5k, even in hardest situations ( with normal heals )

Anecdotal. Lets see logs.


C.: I got xxx stamina less then 99% of other tanks with equal gear as me, and yet, I live much longer then any of them.

Again, anecdotal. Logs please.


D.: http://tfp2010.jimdo.com/class-guide...in/protection/ (http://tfp2010.jimdo.com/class-guides/paladin/protection/) , cheer, kk, ty

So many incorrect assumptions, anecdotal evidence and empty claims with no numbers as proof. RNG is RNG, no matter how you dress it up.


E.: You say parry haste is not present in some places, just because you installed crappy addon, incorect

Only LDW and Sindragosa have parry haste. How many sources do you need to see? http://avengingwrathy.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/bosses-who-parry-haste/
This page has pretty pictures for you too, since you seem into that Bondiee.


F.: If I miss / get parried / dodged 2x in row with righteous shield, I lost Libram stacks, therefor taking more damage

If you are depending on 2% dodge from your libram proc to save your life, you have bigger problems then your hit/expertise.


About that, I had tanks, with similar gear on Halion 25 HC, but they had 6k more hp then me, and due to parry gibs, dying in like 1 sec.
Meanwhile I was there with 55k hp and never droped under 10k.

Still, anecdotal. Post logs. Wild baseless claims get you nowhere.


I was tanking RS 25 HC with 55 k hp, it was PuG, so we did not down it, but I never droped under 10k...hmm :< And no, I did not use CDs all the time, nor I had some massive overheals,

Post logs, so we can learn from your awesomeness. Otherwise you are just another troll.


I was tanking RS 25 HC with 55 k hp, it was PuG, so we did not down it, but I never droped under 10k...hmm :< And no, I did not use CDs all the time, nor I had some massive overheals,

Normal Festergut 10m is a far cry from HMTLK 25 or HM Halion 25. Festergut hits like a limp noodle, and is nowhere near progression content. Stay on topic.

Bondiee, I have a few suggestions if you want people to take you seriously.
1) Post your armory, so we can see your gems/gear/enchant choices in detail.
2) Post logs of these instances where you are out-surviving the 'mindless tanks' while receiving fewer heals, and no raid support in the form of MD/tricks/Salvation etc.
3) Learn grammar.

icantfindone
10-10-2010, 03:04 AM
Also Bondiee, linking a website written by yourself to back up your own outlandish claims does nothing to actually prove your own point. Find a respected 3rd party source to back up your points. Go on. I'll wait. . . .

Kazeyonoma
10-12-2010, 02:59 AM
Okay, enough, thread cleaned out, no more attacking, no more unbiased/unproven anecdotal data. Infractions will be handed out for drivel, repeat offenders temp bans.

This isn't OLD WORLD TANKS SPOUTING OFF, COPYING OTHER TANKS. This is fundamental.

Muffin Man
10-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Oh, yes, now you say, times of progression, you already outgear it..

Look @ undergeared project, as example... Fester gut with 20% downed in full blue raid, did they need that stamina from gear ? Err, no

There are 3 things wrong with this example.

1 - Most fundamentally the 20% buff means they are not progression raiders.

2 - Although some might argue that the most fundamental problem is that you're talking about a normal mode as opposed to hard mode boss.

3 - The strats for this boss were already figured out, which counts for a lot when it's time to execute.