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tawnos
04-08-2010, 11:24 PM
We tried dreamwalker10 about 12ish times tonight and never really made much progress. We started the raid with: (and this is the B-team of a lowend guild so composition is just whoever we can get, not something we have any control over)

1x prot paladin mediocre gear (mainspec ret, tanking because original tank didn't show)
1x prot warrior (no real offspec)
1x disc priest (no offspec)
2x resto shaman (one with decent ele offspec)
1x boomkin (mediocre resto offspec)
3x mm hunter
1x destruction lock

Near the end of the raid one of the hunters left and we replaced him with a prot warrior (with crappy dps offspec) and the prot paladin (me) went to ret spec. Several questions:

1) Healing - Is the disc priest as useless as it seems to me? He has no holy spec and apparently his whole family was killed by a holy priest or something because he doesn't want to get one. Also, we made several runs with one resto shaman doing full heals on the dragon and the other one splitting time roughly evenly between raidheals and dragonheals (with the disc priest full time on the raid). Is this sensible? Should both the shamans always be going into the portal to keep their stacks up, and roughly how many stacks should they have near the end? They were both doing about 6-7k hps for the duration of the fights. We also tried going with 4 heals but the dps was just too low to manage it. The shamans weren't entirely sure if they were keeping up the stacks and how many they had. Its also possible the suppressors weren't dying fast enough.

2) DPS - Is really awful. Is this normal? The ranged were all doing badly and when i switchd from prot to ret so was i. I usually do 6-6.5k or so on deathwhisper adds and should be around 9-9.5k on stuff like festergut, but i was only doing 4.5k on dreamwalker adds since i was spending most of my time running around. We got to the point of being able to take out the blazing skeletons before they could cause much trouble but the rest of the adds would keep stacking up after about 3-4 minutes. Is it advisable to tank the adds close together? We were pretty spread out with each of the two tanks playing zone defense on their side, but this meant long travel time between them and no cleave damage for me. We did this mainly to avoid the abomination puking on anyone or the zombie exploding on them.

3) Frostbolts - were absolutely killing my dps. I was chain mashing hand of freedom the entire time because i was literally constantly snared from frostbolt. Is it feasible to have the prot warrior interrupt these? Are there any other better options? Typically i'm not in range to holy wrath or hammer of justice these and i don't know if anyone else has a decent interrupt that can be used e.g. immediately after kiling a blazing skeleton across the room. We've used a similar setup the past 2 weeks on deathwhisper and we mostly just eat the frostbolts there as we've not had to find a feasible way to get interrupts in.

Ire
04-09-2010, 12:44 AM
1) Healing - Is the disc priest as useless as it seems to me?

Disc isn't that hot on this fight. Holy would probably be a little better. Ideally you want to be able to get through the fight with a single healer healing the entire raid outside.


Also, we made several runs with one resto shaman doing full heals on the dragon and the other one splitting time roughly evenly between raidheals and dragonheals (with the disc priest full time on the raid). Is this sensible? Should both the shamans always be going into the portal to keep their stacks up, and roughly how many stacks should they have near the end?

Both shaman should go in for as long as your priest can handle it. Our healers usually have 30-40 stacks by the end of it, if I recall. Sometimes they have even more.


They were both doing about 6-7k hps for the duration of the fights.

Our last heroic kill our shaman did 18.5K hps. I suspect your guys weren't rolling their stacks well enough, but your inadequate handling of the AoE frostbolts likely contributed to that.

Suppressors probably need to die faster, too.

And realize the fact that your healers are rolling stacks means the the HPS of the healers will look geometrically worse in a short fight.


2) DPS - Is really awful. Is this normal?

Yeah. It will be especially bad for ret because neither command nor corruption work all that optimally. Righteousness is probably your best bet. You might need to bust out an old libram as a result of not being able to use corruption. But overall raid dps nosedives this fight.


We got to the point of being able to take out the blazing skeletons before they could cause much trouble but the rest of the adds would keep stacking up after about 3-4 minutes. Is it advisable to tank the adds close together?

The adds really shouldn't be backing up until 5-6 minutes into the fight.

When I tank this I usually wait for the healer to build heal aggro on newly spawned mobs and taunt them over to in front of Dreamwalker's head, facing them away from Dreamwalker to avoid her taking damage from cones or the explosions. The tank on the other side does more or less the same and we try and tank them all on the same spot.

That is unless there is a large pack of suppressors. If there are suppressors I will normally drag whatever I am tanking over to the suppressor spot and take advantage of cleave AoE.

We obviously position ranged dps in the middle of the room so they can hit either side with equal facility.


3) Frostbolts - were absolutely killing my dps. I was chain mashing hand of freedom the entire time because i was literally constantly snared from frostbolt. Is it feasible to have the prot warrior interrupt these?

Frostbolts need to be interrupted. Not only do they lower your dps, but they will slow your portal takers increasing the possibility that they will not be able to refresh their stacks in time to have the buff roll to ever higher stacks. And since the entire fight is about your portal healers rolling their stacks, this is a major problem.

Marksman hunters do have the option of talenting silencing shot, so they should probably set up some rotation with that. Looks to be 20 second cooldown, so that seems doable provided they actually have the talent. And obviously you and the prot warrior should be chipping in where possible.

Bitterst
04-09-2010, 02:50 AM
1) I Disc priest outside is fine, the two shaman taking the portals will be better because when they do get out to heal Valithria, their Ancestral Awakening will cover raid healing on everyone within 40 yards of Valithria. Healers should be getting ~6 stacks per portal phase, and carrying those stacks into the next portal phase by making sure to always be standing on the newly spawning portal locations, immediately getting the first buff in range, and then making sure to get one last buff right before the phase ends (even more important than getting that one extra stack that they think they might be able to make it to).

2) DPS shouldn't have any problem on this fight if they are aggressive. I would suggest dropping to just the Protection Warrior tanking in the middle near Valithria and facing the mobs towards the door from which you enter the room so that Gut Spray doesn't get on Dreamwalker. With this setup, you can have one hunter assigned to each side responsible for kiting Blistering Zombies (1 hunter can and should solo them with 1 rotation of Serpent Sting, Chimera Shot, Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, Concussive Shot, and the inherent Auto Shots inbetween as they only have 75k health) and take them in a path from whichever gate they spawn from at an angle towards the door from which you enter the room, where no one should be standing to be hit by Acid Burst explosions. There will only ever be one of those up at a time, which will allow the other two hunters, moonkin, and the warlock to destroy the Blazing Zombies and Suppressors as they appear on either side.

3) You as a Ret Paladin can sit near the Prot warrior as he's tanking Abominations and attack his mob and pick up Risen Archmages yourself and offtank them (they can be tanked by anyone with decent HP) while all the DPS kill them when not focusing on Blazing/Blistering/Suppressors. You don't really have a great way of dealing with the Frostbolt Volleys, but all 3 MM hunters should have Silencing Shot and you can Hammer of Justice and Holy Wrath and then then warrior can Concussive Blow and Shockwave which should handle almost all of them. If one does get off, try and Cleanse the Shamans so that they're aren't slowed heading into new portals.

tawnos
04-09-2010, 11:40 AM
I had read many people saying hunters should be kiting the blistering zombies but i had a few questions. For one, we're going to get frostbolts even under the best of circumstances with our limited interrupt options. Is this going to substantially hinder the hunters? i don't know much about hunter kiting and I don't think the ones in our group are big pvp'ers who would be pros at it. I know hunters have tricks for kiting (disengage or something?) but i'm not sure if it would keep them alive on the zombies if they get frostbolted. Also, are the hunters going to be able to contribute to blazing skeleton damage while kiting? We did finally get to the point of downing these quickly enough but only with the mantra 'no matter who you are drop what you're doing and dps the blazing skeletons'. If a hunter is kiting it seems like they might get killed following this.

Even with prot warrior + prot paladin (the setup we went with most of the time cause the normal prot warrior wasn't online) we had problems with the worms. I was able to handle my side's abomination worms fine with consecration but the other warrior was having a lot of problems with them. Both warriors were having problems controlling them when i switched from prot to ret. It seems like if we dropped to a single prot warrior it would be pretty brutal to try to control the worms while tanking anything else. We could drop to me being the only tank as a prot paladin (which is what the other warrior originally suggested) but my ret dps is quite a bit higher than either of the prot warriors' offspecs. Is there some trick to warrior handling them? We always had multiple mobs up so i could just consecration on the abom corpse and run off to go fetch other mobs, but the prot warriors don't have the luxury.

I'm guessing the healers were losing their stacks and that may have been the biggest problem. Some of our middle runs when i was tanking we were getting close to the beserk timer and actually made it there once. We didn't have both shamans fulltime healing the dragon (usually one fulltime the other seemed to be about 50/50) but it sounds like they should have been able to have healed it in that amount of time.

Thanks for the advice. I'm dying to try it again but unfortunately we only do 2 days of 2.5hrs 10mans so i'm trying to cram as much reading in as possible.

Bashal
04-09-2010, 12:12 PM
I had read many people saying hunters should be kiting the blistering zombies but i had a few questions. For one, we're going to get frostbolts even under the best of circumstances with our limited interrupt options. Is this going to substantially hinder the hunters? i don't know much about hunter kiting and I don't think the ones in our group are big pvp'ers who would be pros at it. I know hunters have tricks for kiting (disengage or something?) but i'm not sure if it would keep them alive on the zombies if they get frostbolted. Also, are the hunters going to be able to contribute to blazing skeleton damage while kiting? We did finally get to the point of downing these quickly enough but only with the mantra 'no matter who you are drop what you're doing and dps the blazing skeletons'. If a hunter is kiting it seems like they might get killed following this.

Even with prot warrior + prot paladin (the setup we went with most of the time cause the normal prot warrior wasn't online) we had problems with the worms. I was able to handle my side's abomination worms fine with consecration but the other warrior was having a lot of problems with them. Both warriors were having problems controlling them when i switched from prot to ret. It seems like if we dropped to a single prot warrior it would be pretty brutal to try to control the worms while tanking anything else.

Regarding Hunters:
Concussive shot slows the zombies down. My hunter, decked out in only 10-man gear from ICC, can solo them fine if I pick them up from the edge of my range. If they get too close, then yes, I can disengage, or if the healers are far away enough, I can feign death and it'll stroll in their direction for a bit, then I can pop back up and reacquire it before it starts smacking a healer around. Distracting shot works well to ensure it comes back after me.

While having experience with PvP kiting certainly helps, its not the same as PvE kiting, becasue the mob's behavior is far more simplistic and predictable than another player being kited. My point is, PvE kiting is fairly straightforward, and doesn't take very long to get the hang of. If a hunter is like "oo I never did that before" my response would be "well, now is as good a time to learn as any."

A mage would also be able to handle the kiting ok, especially an arcane mage with slow.


Using 1 tank, worms
Recently tried this because the second ICC10 group I'm in is having trouble clearing this boss. We went with 4 heals and 1 tank (still couldn't get it, looks like a stack/gear issue with the healers). We initially had trouble with the worms until we worked out that if ranged DPSers start spamming their AoEs just before the worms start coming out, they die before they can harm anyone. On my hunter I will also MD+Volley onto a tank to help make sure they don't run away and kill a clothie, but sometimes I wouldn't be able to and the worms definitely died before they could take anyone out.

CoolNitro
04-10-2010, 05:59 AM
The best setup for this fight is indeed 1 tank because the more dps you have the less mobs will start stacking up also a Disc priest is one of the best classes for staying outside because of their bubbles, massdispell and quick spike healing. When I first started healing this encounter as a Disc priest I could keep the raid alive for around 4 portals before everyone started taking more damage then I could heal so we had the second healer ( a druid ) go in 4 but stay out there after and assist the raid with the last healer ( shaman ) going in all the time.


As for taking down the adds I would suggest a priority system of which adds to take down first the one we use is:

Suppressor
Blazing Skeleton
Risen Archmage
Blistering Zombie
Abomination

The Suppressors need to be taken out first or all healing buffs are wasted.
The Skeletons and Archmages priority is variable dependent on which causes you the most problems but both should be taken down asap.
The Zombie hits like a truck so it should be withered down while being kited if your tanks can't take the damage, they also need to be moved away or melee run away before it pops.

And lastly the Abominations when we do these guys we normally just dot them up and let the first one reach 10% before stopping dps then nuke the second down to the same, once you have a spare moment between other adds tank both on one spot and let loose with all aoe to kill both at the same time along with the worms. The worms are one of the quickest raid wipers if they are allowed to move.


In regards to your portal takers both should take a side of the room to collect the orbs ignore the tactics that say you can pick up the same orb as it takes too long and you can sometimes miss them so if each healer picks a side one left one right by the time they are kicked back out both should be at the back of the dragon and should have 5 or 6 stacks each, this removes the possibility that one of them will lose their stacks.

Also if you think you do not have the dps to keep up you could try sending in 1 healer 1 caster dps in a portal every 2 or 3 openings, a boomkin with 6 stacks can dish out a lot of damage but be warned this tactic will allow the encounter to stretch on longer so it's a tossup between getting the dragon healed quickly or removing some adds quicker so the raid doesn't die.

swelt
04-10-2010, 08:52 AM
I'd vote for solo tanking it, it's a lot of fun (esp. as a warrior, zoom!). Try to keep the mobs relatively central, but be sure to keep the fatties facing outwards. Tank priority is on fatties, with a hunter or other ranged dps kiting zombies. Mages can be tanked, but can just as easily be zerged by dps. As a raid leader, I found the pertinant question to ask the portal healer team after each wipe was "how many stacks did get up to, did you lose your stacks?". Once they start saying "high number, no" you are probably handing out loot.

tawnos
04-10-2010, 10:40 AM
The best setup for this fight is indeed 1 tank because the more dps you have the less mobs will start stacking up also a Disc priest is one of the best classes for staying outside because of their bubbles, massdispell and quick spike healing. When I first started healing this encounter as a Disc priest I could keep the raid alive for around 4 portals before everyone started taking more damage then I could heal so we had the second healer ( a druid ) go in 4 but stay out there after and assist the raid with the last healer ( shaman ) going in all the time.


As for taking down the adds I would suggest a priority system of which adds to take down first the one we use is:

Suppressor
Blazing Skeleton
Risen Archmage
Blistering Zombie
Abomination

The Suppressors need to be taken out first or all healing buffs are wasted.
The Skeletons and Archmages priority is variable dependent on which causes you the most problems but both should be taken down asap.
The Zombie hits like a truck so it should be withered down while being kited if your tanks can't take the damage, they also need to be moved away or melee run away before it pops.

And lastly the Abominations when we do these guys we normally just dot them up and let the first one reach 10% before stopping dps then nuke the second down to the same, once you have a spare moment between other adds tank both on one spot and let loose with all aoe to kill both at the same time along with the worms. The worms are one of the quickest raid wipers if they are allowed to move.

I don't think there's any way we could de-prioritize the blazing skeleton. On our first few attempts he single-handedly wrecked the raid and really destabilized us afterwards until we got the point of being able to down him by about the third pulse. Despite all the ranged we really didn't have good burst dps and next week we'll probably have 2 ret paladins (which i can say for sure are not exactly kings of single-target pve burst damage) with one fewer mm hunter. We tried me (in ret) on the suppressors at one point and while i could crush them with cleave damage (every event needs packs of undead mobs with no aggro table sitting in a big pile ready to be divinestormed/seal of commanded!) it always put me out of position to do anything else cause i was frostbolt-snared. We found it better to put a lock on them but maybe with better interrupts on the mage I could go back to it.

I think the zombies only hit like a truck when they've applied a 5-stack of their AC debuff. At least, thats my hope as it seems like hunter-kiting is the way to go but i'm pretty sure ours will get hit at least a few times. It really seemed like they didn't hit all that hard at first and the biggest damage they caused was really from the aboms hitting a tank with 50% armor reduction. As for single-tanking its also a matter of personnel. Neither of the two warriors spends much time working on dps. On 25's the better of the two rarely nears 5k and he has little time outside of raidtime to improve his set. The other warrior is clearly interested only in tanking and we usually go with 3 tanks or have one of the 2 maintank paladins go dps to accomodate him. It wouldn't substantially affect raid dps to have one of them switch from prot to fury but i guess it seems like a good idea for me to be going ret (since its my main spec and a very large dps increase to the raid). I was also able to take out a pack of worms on my own in ret though it was enough of a hp drop to scare me away from doing it again, but maybe I could try to handle them myself.

Our disc priest was also able to mostly keep up for about 3-4 portals (once we started handling the blazing skeleton as number 1 priority) till the second shaman had to start helping so maybe i was too harsh. I think it had to be either suppressors or (more likely) lack of healing stacks on the shamans. Though i still think the priest would do better as holy. If he were using his second spec for unholy i could see not having a holy one.

Insomnia
04-13-2010, 09:47 PM
Make sure your tank+raid is on vent and communicating (this helps alot if you weren't already). Also, your raid composition could be a bit more varied. I personally divvied melee dps(1 to each side) for suppressors, and advising tanks to kite adds to the suppressors to help. (Myself being a prot pally, consecration, HoR, and aoe stun works nicely for killing em). The pre-aoe strategy for worms works most efficiently if your tank is saying "omg wormz die or i die nao pls". Zombies should NOT be tanked at all by your tanks, for two reasons. The first being it increases raid healing needed(which diverts from dreamwalker) and secondly it could cause a death if stacked with worms/skeleton.

randyflagg
04-14-2010, 02:48 PM
Your healers need to know if their stacks are falling off or not. As raid lead (and preferrably for any raider) you should have Grid installed w/ the raid debuffs add-on and this will allow you to know at a glance how they are doing. In the two 10-mans I run in, we've done this with either a Disc Priest or Resto Druid outside and with Resto Druids, Resto Shamans, and/or a Holy Paladin going into the portals. If you have Shamans, they should keep Healing Stream totem down to assist w/ raid heals and heal Valithria. We pop heroism when both healers are over 20 stacks and it's a short finish from there. To be honest, our healers (including myself) could probably do better getting the orbs in the portals and it's something we'll need to work on before we attempt the hard mode.

The longest we've lasted was about seven and a half minutes (when we were still learning the fight). These days, we finish in five or five and a half minutes. If you can't last six minutes or more, you need to work on what the tank and DPS are doing outside so that your healers can do their job. If you're pushing past that and aren't close to healing Valithria to full, then your healers need to do better (assuming suppressors are dying quickly).

Blazing Skeletons will wipe you raid, they are the #1 DPS priority. After that, kill suppressors. We usually assign a few people to handle suppressors so the rest of us can focus on the other adds. Kite the zombies, interrupt the mages, keep the abom turned away from Valithria, and make sure the tank picks up aggro on the worms.

If your healers are missing portals or dropping stacks, they need to do better. They should be waiting near Valithria's head before the portals spawn and should hit the space bar to start lifting immediately when they port in. The depth perception is a little tricky and I find it easier to zoom my camera in pretty close when I'm doing orbs (I usually keep it at 40 yards).

TLDR: If you wipe in less than 6 minutes, it's a problem outside. If your healers are losing stacks or aren't able to get above 20 stacks in around 5 minutes, they need to do better.

bling581
04-15-2010, 02:14 PM
3) Frostbolts - were absolutely killing my dps. I was chain mashing hand of freedom the entire time because i was literally constantly snared from frostbolt. Is it feasible to have the prot warrior interrupt these? Are there any other better options? Typically i'm not in range to holy wrath or hammer of justice these and i don't know if anyone else has a decent interrupt that can be used e.g. immediately after kiling a blazing skeleton across the room. We've used a similar setup the past 2 weeks on deathwhisper and we mostly just eat the frostbolts there as we've not had to find a feasible way to get interrupts in.
In addition to the reasons Ire gave this need to be interrupted because they drain mana. While this won't affect your portal healers as much, it would be devastating to your raid healer that's staying out and any dps you have that use mana. Your raid healer should be helping with boss healing when able, but if the frostbolts aren't being interrupted I don't see how they could afford the mana to help.

tawnos
04-22-2010, 09:15 PM
TLDR: If you wipe in less than 6 minutes, it's a problem outside. If your healers are losing stacks or aren't able to get above 20 stacks in around 5 minutes, they need to do better.
Tried it again (totally different raidcomp but same issues) and we were wiping in less than 6 minutes. However, 6 minutes seems to be the berserk timer? We were consistently lasting over 5 minutes and once we were still in pretty good shape at 5:30 (15 seconds later we were wiping) but we got the '15 seconds until berserk' warning at 5:45. Are we supposed to be able to do something past 6 minutes? The dragonhealers were among the last to die and recount was showing most of our attempts around 5:05 to 5:40 in duration.

This time our healers were getting to around 20-25 stacks by the 5 min mark. On one attempt we had a priest with 31 stacks. Our fulltime dedicated dragonhealer was a holy paladin who was beaconing one tank and healing the dragon (thats the correct way?) He was getting the 20-25 stacks by the end but we never healed more than 4m hps. I'm thinking maybe its a gear issue now? The guy was good but only had about 4.8k gearscore. Suppressors could still be the problem but we had our 2 ranged dedicated to them when not on blazing skeletons so i think they were getting downed pretty fast.

We had no hunters and i really can't see kiting working for us so we just had tanks taking the zombie again. We also went with 2 tanks again because the other tank (a better geared prot paladin this week) didn't want to try it with me dps'ing. Frostbolts were still an issue but we were tanking closer to the middle as suggested so the melee (three this time) weren't having to run as far.

Insomnia
04-22-2010, 09:36 PM
You're only getting 20 stacks by the end? Your healers should be doing much better. It's easier to assign one raid healer and the rest to dreamwalker. If you go with 2 tanks, you're probably going to push the 6 minute timer. If you're attempting to use one tank it has to be nearly perfectly coordinated. This means that dps must be high, on top of being intelligent. Skeletons take priority over everything, then supressors, then mages, zombies, and abominations. Keep in mind though, something that is barely ever mentioned, rotworms will KILL YOUR WHOLE RAID if they are not immediately aoe'd down. Tanks can handle about 3-5 seconds of tanking the debuff before it gets dangerous. AOE is EXTREMELY recommended to be thrown onto the spot they'll spawn at as to kill them ASAP. These things take priority over pretty much everything, and they die quickly.

The only thing i can recommend for just after hitting the berserk timer is bloodlust. Save it for then. Because adds will spawn faster etc, the boost in dps will help if you're only lacking ~1 mil hp heals on dreamwalker. In any case, practice and proper execution will get you the kill. Try to clean up the chaos(if it exists) and make things more fluid.

Commenting on the holy paladin, (hopefully this doesn't get me killed by mods), by my understanding it used to be about 5.2k gearscore to be acceptable for icc10. However with the new 10% buff 5k would probably be acceptable. In any case, it sounds like he's somewhat under geared. Beaconing a tank and healing dreamwalker is a fine method of healing as it ensures one tank wont die while you spawn dreamwalker.

Errvalunia
04-22-2010, 09:55 PM
If you don't have two healers focusing ONLY on bomb-healing Val, you will easily reach the enrage timer.

Speaking from a resto shaman perspective, make sure your raiders have read strats and know that they have to make a big adjustment when healing Val--you don't have to worry about mana or overhealing. So RT+HW+HW+HW will give you massive HPS output, and screw mana.

If you can, you should NOT put a priest into the portals. They don't really have the kind of single-target healing output you need. Your priest should be chilling outside and the other two healers going into EVERY portal. No "sometimes" healing dragon--your raid healer needs to be able to do it alone. Your entire raid's mana cooldowns will go to them (every innervate and mana tide totem is at their beck and call). The ONLY time the dragon healers should heal the other team is to keep passive easy buffs up (for example, I drop a hugely buffed ES on our tank) or if your raid healer goes down. Our last kill, our priest went down with the tank about to bite it--I dropped a huge HW on the tank so the priest could accept a bres without us wiping.

The paladin should NOT beacon the tank and heal the dragon. Because what about everyone else who needs healing? You'll basically never overheal the dragon--so if you beacon the tank and heal Val, you've got MASSIVE overhealing on the tank thats wasted. If you beacon Val and heal whoever you feel like, you've still got lots of overheal (because you heal for more than even your tank's lifepool!) but all that healing, even overhealing, goes to Val.

tawnos
04-22-2010, 10:25 PM
You're only getting 20 stacks by the end? Your healers should be doing much better. It's easier to assign one raid healer and the rest to dreamwalker. If you go with 2 tanks, you're probably going to push the 6 minute timer. If you're attempting to use one tank it has to be nearly perfectly coordinated. This means that dps must be high, on top of being intelligent. Skeletons take priority over everything, then supressors, then mages, zombies, and abominations. Keep in mind though, something that is barely ever mentioned, rotworms will KILL YOUR WHOLE RAID if they are not immediately aoe'd down. Tanks can handle about 3-5 seconds of tanking the debuff before it gets dangerous. AOE is EXTREMELY recommended to be thrown onto the spot they'll spawn at as to kill them ASAP. These things take priority over pretty much everything, and they die quickly.

The only thing i can recommend for just after hitting the berserk timer is bloodlust. Save it for then. Because adds will spawn faster etc, the boost in dps will help if you're only lacking ~1 mil hp heals on dreamwalker. In any case, practice and proper execution will get you the kill. Try to clean up the chaos(if it exists) and make things more fluid.

Commenting on the holy paladin, (hopefully this doesn't get me killed by mods), by my understanding it used to be about 5.2k gearscore to be acceptable for icc10. However with the new 10% buff 5k would probably be acceptable. In any case, it sounds like he's somewhat under geared. Beaconing a tank and healing dreamwalker is a fine method of healing as it ensures one tank wont die while you spawn dreamwalker.
We had (on our first few attempts) resto shaman + holy paladin fulltime dreamwalker (with beacon on tank) and a disc priest healing the raid. We were only making it about 4-4.5 minutes with this so we tried holy paladin + disc priest on dragon and resto shaman on the raid. This was working better and we were lasting consistently over 5 minutes but the healing was still a bit low. The holy paladin had never been past marrowgar i think so it took him a while to adjust to gathering the stacks but he was doing pretty well by this point. The disc priest then in a fit of, uh something, went and respeced to some sort of hybrid holy spec for single target healing. We did about the same in terms of surviving for 5-5.5 minutes and a bit better on healing excluding one attempt where the tanks missed some worms (i think it was the other tank's abom, but guess it doesn't matter). I think we got to 10.5m on our best attempt and most of the others were around 10m.

With the resto shaman the other 2 heals were able to go fulltime on dreamwalker, or at least I assume so and the runs i was able to check (i failed yet again at /combatlog while coming back from a relog so going from memory) they were both above 95% of their healing done on the dragon. We were struggling to keep the raid alive much past 4 minutes with the disc priest healing the raid, but were pretty consistently over 5 minutes with the resto shaman on it. The adds were stacking up past this point so i don't think additional healing would really extend the duration very much. Our dps was also undergeared and my tankset is probably only somewhat above the line (i guess using gearscore estimates is verboten on here?). For anyone who uses recount, what should the fight duration as measured by recount look like for a raid thats just beating the fight? The key thing to figure out is whether its the lack of dps on the adds or the lack of heals on the dragon. The two possible points of failure have very different solutions.

Thats an excellent point someone made about the lack of a need for mana efficiency. I had thought about it but i'm not sure how to broach the subject. It would help if i had logs but I cant find a way to just permanently turn on combat logs everytime i log in. I don't know anything about priest but i'm guessing for holy paladin its just spam mash holy light? If i ever get a chance to do this on my resto druid, what would be optimal there? Rejuv, regrowth, lifebloom, nourish spam or ignore lifebloom? Swiftmend in there somewhere i'm sure is a good idea.

tawnos
04-22-2010, 10:34 PM
About rotworms, i'm guessing this is maybe a bear/dk problem? I ended up tanking rotworms for long periods of time several times that were left up while dps went to more important targets and they really didn't seem to be doing much damage. My understanding is that shields tend to overpower the 'lots of little adds that don't hit for much but can add up en masse' problems.

Errvalunia
04-22-2010, 10:38 PM
Tawnos--that's why the clouds give you ridiculous mana back! So that you can spam your biggest bombs on the dragon. My last kill my mana gained was
Emerald Vigor 63048 mana
Water Shield 8860 mana (I let it drop halfway through, realizing it wasnt worth the GCDs to refresh)
Mana Restore 3000 mana (meta gem)

So I was using RT+HW+HW+HW which eats through my mana like you wouldn't believe--especially because I don't stack mp5, usually managing to barely scrape by with mana returns from crits--and stayed at full mana after the first portal. Keeping ES up on the tank. My AA procs were getting RIDICULOUS heals on the raid by the end of the fight--mostly overheal, but a 50k AA proc is awesome

I know our resto druid usually gets her HoTs rolling and then spams nourish (the HoTs buff nourish as well, right?).

Prynts
04-28-2010, 12:08 PM
I may get some flak for suggesting this, but my guild actually 4-heals Dreamwalker. Our setup:

Prot Warrior
DK tank (switches between blood and frost, not sure which he uses for this fight)
Disc priest
Resto Shaman
Resto/Boomkin druid (resto for this fight, obv)
Ele Shaman (with rarely used resto offspec)
Warlock
Hunter
Ret Pally
Blood dps DK

So how do we do it? We have the ele shaman go resto as a 4th healer. Both shaman go into the portals and heal the dragon while the druid and priest stay outside. One tank, one melee dps, and one ranged dps are responsible for each side, although the ranged can float back and forth if needed. Dps priority is blazing/suppressors/archmages/aboms/worms (with ranged kiting zombies). Because the 2 dragon healers don't have to worry about the raid at all, the dragon is usually healed up at about the 4 minute mark, so there isn't a lot of time for adds to stack. If the dps is falling behind, you can just ignore the aboms because it's easy for each healer to keep up one tank through it. With 2 dps on each side we generally have to deal with one tick of lay waste from each blazing, and can usually down the archmages before they get off a frostbolt volley. Suppressors are usually dead very shortly after they reach the dragon. As long as the dps solidly follows the kill order, you shouldn't have any dps problems.

So to answer the OP's question, you might try having the druid go resto as a 4th healer, and you'll have the same heal setup my guild does. Not having any melee dps may make it harder to interrupt / stun the archmages, but you should be fine with your tank setup.

As an aside, with this setup we got the encounter on HM on our first attempt. The biggest problem guilds seem to have with the HM version is the outside healers running oom, and the extra healer allowed us to completely avoid that.

Theotherone
04-28-2010, 12:20 PM
Hunter

I kite them on my hunter, but usually we have at least two hunters in the raid and we tend to double up on them, so we get more time on other targets, but either one of us can do them alone if we have to; or if we're caught alone on a side. We also use only one tank so we get the extra dps, usually a Tree will go Boomkin and he and a shammy will take sides to kill the suppressors. We have one of the Pally tanks go holy and send the pally and the other tree or priest (depending on who's in the raid) into the portals. When I tank and the Dragon gets to 75% I start pulling all adds to the center so we can aoe them down and we don't have them wandering doing mischief in the raid and so everyone stays in range of the raid healer. Basically we've found 3 heals, 1 tank and 6 dps works fine.

Toxicacid
05-09-2010, 04:09 PM
As a holy paladin i tried this fight the other night. Gear isnt anything special, 5.6k gs, 3k spellpower unbuffed. I beaconed Dreamwalker and spammed holylights on the raid but i kept losing stacks. I entered every portal and would get roughly between 5-7 stacks each time, but stacks would drop off way before the next portal opens. Do the suppressors attacking dreamwalker cause me to lose my stacks? Anyone know why i would be losing the stacks so quickly ?

Errvalunia
05-09-2010, 04:26 PM
As a holy paladin i tried this fight the other night. Gear isnt anything special, 5.6k gs, 3k spellpower unbuffed. I beaconed Dreamwalker and spammed holylights on the raid but i kept losing stacks. I entered every portal and would get roughly between 5-7 stacks each time, but stacks would drop off way before the next portal opens. Do the suppressors attacking dreamwalker cause me to lose my stacks? Anyone know why i would be losing the stacks so quickly ?

None of the mobs dispell stacks AFAIK. The big thing is that the later you get your last stack of portal one the more leeway you have to get your first stack in portal 2. Try to pop one right before you drop out.

Toxicacid
05-09-2010, 05:08 PM
None of the mobs dispell stacks AFAIK. The big thing is that the later you get your last stack of portal one the more leeway you have to get your first stack in portal 2. Try to pop one right before you drop out.

Thats the thing, i am getting one just before i drop out, but they seem to be falling off after very quickly, wa before the new portals pop up. Ill hopefully give it a try again tonight and see how i go.

Dont the suppressors remove 10% of healing on Dreamwalker per stack, in other words removing 1 of my stacks ? thats the only thing i can think of.

Bashal
05-10-2010, 07:35 AM
Thats the thing, i am getting one just before i drop out, but they seem to be falling off after very quickly, wa before the new portals pop up. Ill hopefully give it a try again tonight and see how i go.

Dont the suppressors remove 10% of healing on Dreamwalker per stack, in other words removing 1 of my stacks ? thats the only thing i can think of.

They reduce healing received, effectively making it as if you had fewer stacks, but they definitely don't mess with your stack count or duration.

There are only three ways that you might lose your stacks:

1) Not getting a stack just before a portal phase ends.
2) Entering a portal late.
3) Taking too long to pick up a stack after entering a portal.

Or a combination of the three, even. Say you wander around in the portal phase for the last 3-4 seconds without getting a stack, you run to a portal after they are available to use, losing a couple more seconds, then take a little too long to grab a new stack, and find you've lost your stacks. :(

You should always camp a portal site and click on it as soon as it opens.

If you time everything fairly well, you should start the next portal phase with somewhere between 8 and 12 seconds left before your stacks fall off.