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Netman0217
04-04-2010, 03:46 PM
Just wondering if I can get some advice on Dreamwalker 10-man. Going to make some serious atttempts this Tuesday but our late night 10-man crew haven't had a lot of luck with getting a regular shaman to run with us.

I should have the following makeup:

Holy Pally
Disc Priest
Resto Druid or Holy Priest
Combat Rogue
Fury Warrior or Ret. Pally
Survival Hunter
Destro Warlock / MM Hunter
Arcane Mage / MM Hunter
Prot Pally
Prot Warrior

(note: MM hunter subs for either the Warlock or the Mage)

Should I try to go with the 1 tank/4 Healer/ 5 DPS approach to have two full time healers on Dreamwalker to make up for the missing heroism?

We have tried the boss a few times before but it was always at the end of the raid. I am reading on the kill priorties threads, so going to adjust them a bit based on what has been suggested.

First post, so if please go easy on me.

Fledern
04-04-2010, 04:31 PM
We've rarely had the luxury of a shaman in our 10man raids, so we're sort of used to doing stuff without heroism.

This fight is as much about your dps doing stuff properly as it is about your healers. If your tanks & dps play nice and avoid all avoidable damage, a single good healer can actually keep the raid up. If you have two full-time dragon healers (ie taking every portal), you should be able to do the job.

Also use every trick in the book, like if you go with the holy priest, have the pallies do lay on hands on the dragon after the priest does Guardian Spirit. Once we even had a fury warrior stop & bandage when there were no mobs around ;P

You might have control problems with a single tank. I guess it's doable but i feel much more comfortable with 2.

I dont know how your source lists priorities but this is how we go about it:
Blazing Skeletons ASAP (in big capital letters)
Suppressors next
Risen Archmages next (keep the interrupts on the frostbolts)
Blistering Zombies kited & killed by a hunter, ranged help out if they dont have anything else to do
Abominations last.

If you can keep the zombies off your tanks and your tanks are good at picking up & interrupting the mages, the raid damage going out can be pretty minimal. I've had 2 abominations & an archmage on me at one point, not that big a deal. A single zombie however can easily have me popping cooldowns. Any decent hunter should be able to solo the zombies

gacktt
04-04-2010, 07:30 PM
The soft enrage for dream walker is pretty forgiving, on heroic you can live till 6ish minutes and normal up to 7 or so minutes, unless the stacks fall off I really don't know how the healing doesn't make it in time, and even then, if it falls half way it should still be sufficient.

1 tanking it is rather easy if your dps is agressive.

#1 thing to kill when present is a blazing, which should die in 5 seconds if you have 2-3 dps on it.
Kill zombies next for 1 tanking, even melee hits it, nothing good ever comes up with it alive.
3-4 Suppressors can be cleaved down by the melee in just a few seconds, let him handle it.
Arch mages can easily be tanked by a fury warrior hitting it, the frost bolts aren't an issue assuming people know how to interrupt or just stun it while dpsing.
Aboms last.

For 1 tanking you'd be surprised that you tank things maybe 30% of the time and run around 70% of the time.

boogi
04-04-2010, 07:42 PM
We usually offtank the Aboes so in the end I'll end up having anywhere from 2-5 of them. Ranged kites zombies and melees tanks the archmages... I don't really know what the healers do but they brag about the hps when it's over...

Blacksen
04-04-2010, 11:01 PM
It's completely doable without heroism. Your Disc Priest can give Power Infusion to the Holy Paladin to largely make up for the difference.

The key to the fight that's not explained in the 10man video is to not let your stacks fall of. Every single time portals spawn, you should have 2 healers (Holy Paladin and Resto Druid/Holy Priest) taking the portal and instantly flying up to get an orb. This enables them to get up to 20-30 stacks. When the boss gets to around 85%, you can stop taking portals and just heal the boss.

Quinafoi
04-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Some general tips...

Yes you should run with only 1 tank. Now if your class makeup allows you to have an extra healer instead of an extra DPS, the healer would likely be preferable. So if the protection paladin has a healing spec it would be better to have them switch than the protection warrior switching to DPS.

Healing received modifiers help a lot. Lets say you have a hunter with a Tenacity pet that has the Blood of the Rhino talent (+40% healing received). Now you have your priest use Guardian Spirit on it for +40% healing received (Glyph of Guardian Spirit is very useful for this encounter). And your holy paladin heals the pet while the boss has Beacon of Light. The paladin will be healing for +96% healing before factoring in the stacking Emerald Vigor debuff and the zone wide buff.

gacktt
04-05-2010, 11:26 AM
Wow does the 40% rhino talent + beacon really work? was that the secret paladins were using to get 28k+ hps on a H-dreamwalker kill in 4.5 mins(before zone buffs)?

saedo
04-05-2010, 11:39 AM
That's partly it. What the thing was that the 40% didn't increase the beacon heal per se. That was fixed back when feral druids were shown to increase beacon heals when talented. But what wasn't fixed was that the splash healing from Glyph of Holy Light. So you'd park your pet near Valithria and spam heals on it splashing on her. The splash would be the thing getting the 40% increase. Note, parking a feral druid with the talents would do something similar, but since that'd force them to be mostly out of the fight it wasn't viable.

Quinafoi
04-05-2010, 11:42 AM
Wow does the 40% rhino talent + beacon really work? was that the secret paladins were using to get 28k+ hps on a H-dreamwalker kill in 4.5 mins(before zone buffs)?

I don't know, don't play a paladin nore have I actually seen it done. Just heard about it is all.

Venelar
04-05-2010, 12:41 PM
we run it every time without a shaman. Holydin gets Valythria, disc/tree on raid. 1 Tank. Goes just fine.

gacktt
04-07-2010, 02:59 AM
Beacon + tenacity pet doesn't work. holy light crits on pet for 30k, the beacon recieves 20k.

Skaggi
04-07-2010, 03:08 AM
Pally and tree into portals. Disc is fine on raid alone. PI when the stack on the pally is high enough and the encounter will be over before you really notice it.

The tree can easily spam a wild growth into the raid when he comes out of the portals to help the disc out if the situation arises and he can do it much more easily than the holypriest so a tree would be prefferable.

Cheers!
skaggi

Bitterst
04-07-2010, 06:53 AM
Beacon + tenacity pet doesn't work. holy light crits on pet for 30k, the beacon recieves 20k.
As was previously mentioned, it isn't Beacon + Tenacity pet alone, it's the Glyph of Holy Light that is making the bonus healing effective.

For example a log clip from Heroic Lana'thel where the MT was getting Holy Light, the OT was getting Beacon of Light, and some rogues caught Glyph of Holy Light heals:
[21:44:05.190] Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=13308&e=13594) Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/48782/?s=13308&e=13594) Murdog (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/16/?s=13308&e=13594) +*0* (O: 14159)
[21:44:05.934] Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=13308&e=13594) Glyph of Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/54968/?s=13308&e=13594) Sebryekov (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/40/?s=13308&e=13594) +0 (O: 1733)
[21:44:05.934] Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=13308&e=13594) Glyph of Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/54968/?s=13308&e=13594) Chir (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/30/?s=13308&e=13594) +0 (O: 1733)
[21:44:05.934] Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=13308&e=13594) Beacon of Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/53652/?s=13308&e=13594) Javiar (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/10/?s=13308&e=13594) +0 (O: 14584)

Next is an example from Heroic Dreamwalker where Speedy is a tenacity pet with 2/2 Blood of the Rhino getting Holy Light, Dreamwalker is the Beacon of Light target and also catches Glyph of Holy Light heals: (before first stacks of Twisted Nightmares)
[20:59:56.975] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10681) Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/48782/?s=10661&e=10681) http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Speedy (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/185/?s=10661&e=10681) +0 (O: 28354)
[20:59:57.804] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10681) Glyph of Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/54968/?s=10661&e=10681) Valithria Dreamwalker (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/184/?s=10661&e=10681) +3471
[20:59:57.804] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10681) Beacon of Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/53652/?s=10661&e=10681) Valithria Dreamwalker (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/184/?s=10661&e=10681) +20253

And here is again later after the first 6 stacks of Twisted Nightmares for 60% increased healing:
[21:01:06.537] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10893) Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/48782/?s=10661&e=10893) http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Speedy (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/185/?s=10661&e=10893) +0 (O: 37104)
[21:01:06.585] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10893) gains 1200 mana from Nightmare Cloud (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/192/?s=10661&e=10893)'s Twisted Nightmares (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/71941/?s=10661&e=10893)
[21:01:06.951] Nightmare Cloud (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/192/?s=10661&e=10893) Twisted Nightmares (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/71940/?s=10661&e=10893) http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10893) 466 (R: 720)
[21:01:07.263] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10893) Glyph of Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/54968/?s=10661&e=10893) Benea (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/5/?s=10661&e=10893) +0 (O: 7268)
[21:01:07.263] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10893) Glyph of Holy Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/54968/?s=10661&e=10893) Valithria Dreamwalker (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/184/?s=10661&e=10893) +7268
[21:01:07.263] http://www.worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Adoneiros (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/24/?s=10661&e=10893) Beacon of Light (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/spell/53652/?s=10661&e=10893) Valithria Dreamwalker (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yorus7lkgsoel0r/details/184/?s=10661&e=10893) +26503
__________________________________________________ _____________

In the Lana'thel example on a target without an increased healing talent:
(Holy Light healing received) * (1.05 for 5/5 Divinity) * (1.06 for 3/3 Imp Devotion Aura) * (1.10 for Hellscream's Warsong) * (0.10 for Glyph of Holy Light) = Healing received by Glyph of Holy Light


In the Dreamwalker example on a properly spec'd tenacity pet:
(Holy Light healing received) * (1.05 for 5/5 Divinity) * (1.06 for 3/3 Imp Devotion Aura) * (1.10 for Hellscream's Warsong) * (0.10 for Glyph of Holy Light) = Healing received by Glyph of Holy Light

And in the second Dreamwalker example with 6 stacks of Twisted Nightmares:
(Holy Light healing received) * (1.05 for 5/5 Divinity) * (1.06 for 3/3 Imp Devotion Aura) * (1.10 for Hellscream's Warsong) * (0.10 for Glyph of Holy Light) * (1.60 for Twisted Nightmares) = Healing received by Glyph of Holy Light


Essentially, a Tenacity pet will increase Glyph of Holy Light healing received by Dreamwalker by 40% at 0 stacks of Twisted Nightmares in comparison to healing a non-Tenacity pet.
And just in the second example with only 6 stacks of Twisted Nightmares, healing output is increased by 124% for every Glyph of Holy Light heal.

gacktt
04-07-2010, 09:08 AM
So basically val gets 100% +14% per holy light instead of 100% + 10% ?

Quinafoi
04-07-2010, 09:51 AM
So basically val gets 100% +14% per holy light instead of 100% + 10% ?

Not exactly. That's a bit oversimplified. Percentages don't really add, they multiply. So you may only gain a small percentage at the start...

0.1 (Glyph) * 1.06 (Raid Buff, i.e. Tree of Life) * 1.4 (Tenacity Pet) * 1.05 (Divinity Talent) * 1.1 (Zone Buff)
The Glyph heals for 17.1402% of the amount healed by holy light to begin with. The portion of this value fromt he Tenacity pet is 4.8972%. Because of how buffs multiply, it is doing more than 40% effect baseline on the 10% heal from the glyph. Now when you factor in Emerald Vigor as well, say a 10 stack for +100%, you increase the benefit of each factor by 100%, so that means the Tenacity pet is now giving you 9.7944% more healing. At a 20 stack, it's 14.6916% more healing. At a 30 stack its a 19.5888% increase to your healing to heal the pet with Tenacity.

Netman0217
04-07-2010, 11:25 AM
Thanks for all the great feedback. Resulted in a 2-shot.

Prot Warrior went DPS, Ret Pally went Holy, so I had two pallies to send in the portals.

So it end up with a raid comp of 1 healer/ 2 melee / 3 ranged / 4 healers.

Priority:
Casters: Blazing Skeleton > Suppresors > Zombies > Aboms (must finish off worms quick)
Melee: Blazing Skeleton > Archmages (for interrupts) > Suppresors > Aboms (must finish off worms quick)

Hunter (me) dealt with the Zombies solo. Used GS (Holy Priest glyphed for it), PI, Lay on Hands (all three pallies), Amplify Magic