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View Full Version : Rogue Numbers that bother me, a confused rogue.



damionrayne
04-03-2010, 10:43 PM
Currently my rogue uses the 20/51/0 combat assassin build from EJ forums, but as I have an insatiable need to see exactly how things work, not to mention my love of numbers, I choose to spend nearly an hour on the heroic dummy in silvermoon city the other day.

I wanted to weigh the damage veresus energy costs of Eviserate and Envenom, along with Rupture as it now has the ability to proc critical strikes over time. In order to find the most energy effeciant combat rotation for a rogue to use in ICC and other raids.

Though the numbers are small, I found after 40 counts of both eviserate and envenom, that envenom was hiting for very steady damage, and criting far more often then evis was. Now as EJ would tell you, Envenom is "not to be used in a combat rotation". Though I stand to dissagree as from an energy used versus damage gamed perspective it seems to stand higher on the meter.

I must apologize for not having exact numbers at this moment, though I will post them as soon as I have access to my PC to continue testing.

The current rotation I try to use on bosses is to have SnD (glyphed) at 2 points, giving me more then enough time to build a finisher to 5 points, before moving SnD to two points again and rotation to another finisher.

Currently: SnD*2/3 > Rupture > SnD*2/3 > Evis/Envenom (repeat). This seems to be the most energy efficent rotation, as with SnD glyhped and using this rotation SnD achieves a 100% uptime. Rupture ticks for 8 total times on a ?? boss target and seems to base its crit % off the players crit %. Evis and Envenom seem to come very close to one another in terms of damage goten for number of times used and energy used to get the damage.

I'm curious, if any other raiding combat rogues use this rotation, or do a pure Evis rotation as I've seen some on my server do. Though pure evis seem's lazy, and for bosses that move consistanly forcing you to move with them, having a DoT effect from rupture on the target allows you to continue dealing some damage while you are unable to be in melee range for whatever reason.

I'd also like to see input from anyone via the ebate between weather evis or envenom is more energy efficent. Though I do know that envenom takes 5 stacks of deadly, which when at max stack gives extra instant poision procs.

I do hope, I'm not iritating anyone by not posting exact numbers, I promise that come sunday night I'll have them up so that this discussion can continue further.

-DR

Airowird
04-04-2010, 01:35 AM
1) The damage you do with Rupture, Envenom and Eviscerate can be calculated exactly (both pre- & post-armor for Evi) and should net you a fairly easy comparison.
2) The big difference between Rupture and Evi is that Evi scales with ArP on your gear. This is something you need to figure out for your personal gear setup if one or the other is more damage.
3) Did you take into account the poison loss from Envenom? Because even excluding the Deadly Poison damage, you would lose the 5x MH Poison for not having it full stacked. This is a damage loss you need to add to the total damage for Envenom.

damionrayne
04-04-2010, 01:55 AM
You are right about that, I did forget to take into account using envenom resets deadly, and you have to re-apply it to max stack and while doing so loose your MH poision proc's. Thanks for remdining me. WHen I hit the dummy tonight I'll be able to bring up even more numbers.

Though something else confuses me, I hear people talk about rupture not scaling with ArP, what exactly does this mean? Does rupture not take Arp into account at all? Or does it hit is dimishing returns wall faster then evis?

Satorri
04-04-2010, 05:26 AM
Bleeds, while they're physical damage, do not get the benefit of ArP because they aren't mitigated by armor. So, Rupture starts as good as it will get in that respect.

And for Combat, without having run the numbers myself, I assume the poison reset is the issue with Envenom. As combat you rely heavily on fast hits a lot, and like you said, when Deadly Poisons are at 5 stacks you're basically doubling up Instant procs instead of spending only on reapplying lost stacks of Deadly. Envenom may do more than Evis, but the loss of poison damage could be pretty severe.

You're smart to do the tests, but make sure you get the whole picture. You have Recount or a handy tool for measuring breakdowns, yes?

damionrayne
04-04-2010, 10:29 AM
Yes, that's where I got my numbers. I was making sure to use Evis/Envenom an Equal number of counts, as well as rupture. Though rupture's math is a bit harder as it ticks for 8 counts per useage on a boss target. I also thought of something else last night about rupture, the old combat rotaion back when we were 15/51/5 as the cookie cutter spec had rupture built into it. It was SnD*5>Rup*5>Evis*5, repeat.

So, what I'm trying to do is make sure that I'm being as energy efficent as possible, and maxamizeing my damage output in a raid boss situation.

I did close to 6k in ICC10, and 7k in uld. GS is about 4800, though I know GS means diddly. As most people say though GS allows a rough estimation of your gear level's and where your performance should be.

I'd like to ask any other combat rogues to help me test out the numbers on a few rotation's and see what's the most optimal for them. I'll be putting the numbers in tonight.

SnD*5 > Rup*5 > Evis*5
SnD*2 > Rup*5 > SnD*2 > Evis*5/Envenom*5
SnD*2 > Evis*5 > SnD*2 > Evis*5

Note that in order to get SnD*2 to a point to where you have 100% up time while building to a 5 point finisher, you should have it glyphed. Though on average I have about 5-6 seconds of SnD left after building a 5 point finisher to build two quick points and refresh it.

Satorri
04-05-2010, 06:23 AM
GS is only significant for setting a ceiling and likely a floor as well. No one should be sitting on the floor, and few actually touch the ceiling, but it has some significance for your window. It's probably easier to just always assume you can do better, and go about figuring out how.

As a rogue there are a few ways you can look at things for potential on dps:
1.) Cost per slot: that is one finisher compared to another (like you're doing), or combo builder vs combo builder (which leads to #2)
2.) Non-obvious element values: how much is a combo point worth. Does one move give you more combo points than another? Does one affect other elements like poison damage, etc.
3.) Energy/Dmg efficiency: Yes Move A does more damage than Move B, but how much damage per energy. Energy is *always* an interest for Rogues as that will more often limit your moves than the GCD.

Poisons are a very big deal in damage, I've been wrestling with that with my pet project Subtlety spec. It is tricky. On one hand, not having the Master Poisoner talent from Assassin will mean you reset the counter on your Deadly Poison which will in turn keep you from the extra Instant poison procs until it is restacked, but maybe if your gear is really stacked with Haste that window isn't so large (I'm using my Muti gear, so I have a lot of haste, this is my consideration right now). How much do you really get from Enve vs Evis.

On Rupture you can consider how much do you get from Rupture in total compared to instead, say, Evis/Enve. Remember to factor that Rupture is cheaper than they are, and that you will lose damage value if you refresh it early, or if the target dies before the ticks are done.

At the end of the day, the most telling thing you can do is to just play it out. Don't worry about testing, just set your play design and go at the boss for 4-5 minutes. Save that, and try switching it up to something else, the cookie cutter or any other design you might like. Just really play it out for a long enough period to get a good sample size. If you have really nice friends you can even get an enhancement shaman, Retadin, etc to come give you some raid buffs to see if that changes the values (and it might, not everything scales the same). Play will always trump simulators and theorycraft. I've found that to really be the case with Rogues especially with Energy being such a controlling factor.

Kagenote
04-05-2010, 06:38 AM
A spreadsheet is probably going to be your best friend in this situation. Many of them have options for which rotation you will be using, mostly with/without Rup, and they generally assume having 100% up-time for SnD. Not many combat spreadsheets would include using Env over Evis simply because the damage loss from either a) dumping your DP stack or b) sometimes having to wait for DP to get to 5 stacks by the time you have the CP for it. Another thing to keep in mind when you are testing is to remember whether or not you have spec'd and glyphed into Evis and/or Rup (points in or out of Imp Evis vs. Blood Spatter). Also, if you are using the build I think you are using, those last five points (in Vile Poisons and Imp Poisons) are meant to be determined by your gear and a spread sheet, not necessarily the 1/4 split most people just go with.

Personally, my best rotation/spec is talented and glyphed Evis. Priorities are SnD (start with 2 or 3 points depending on Glyph of SS procs), SS to 5 CP, Evis, rinse and repeat. If SnD has less than 6 seconds remaining I refresh it (not a terrible idea to let it run to 0 and pool energy as long as you don't violate the next tip). Try never to be energy capped, use KS only when you will not cap out (and also only when you have SnD running because you do still auto attack during KS).

Kagenote
04-05-2010, 06:57 AM
Here is a pretty useful link http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-rogue/how-to-use-the-combat-spreadsheet-learn-it-love-it-use-it/ . I agree with Sartorri that actual play-time is going to trump pure theory crafting. Don't use spreadsheets as the end-all be-all of your gear/play style decisions. It is a helpful starting point that you can then expand from based on your personal preference.

damionrayne
04-05-2010, 07:05 PM
GS is only significant for setting a ceiling and likely a floor as well. No one should be sitting on the floor, and few actually touch the ceiling, but it has some significance for your window. It's probably easier to just always assume you can do better, and go about figuring out how.

As a rogue there are a few ways you can look at things for potential on dps:
1.) Cost per slot: that is one finisher compared to another (like you're doing), or combo builder vs combo builder (which leads to #2)
2.) Non-obvious element values: how much is a combo point worth. Does one move give you more combo points than another? Does one affect other elements like poison damage, etc.
3.) Energy/Dmg efficiency: Yes Move A does more damage than Move B, but how much damage per energy. Energy is *always* an interest for Rogues as that will more often limit your moves than the GCD.

Poisons are a very big deal in damage, I've been wrestling with that with my pet project Subtlety spec. It is tricky. On one hand, not having the Master Poisoner talent from Assassin will mean you reset the counter on your Deadly Poison which will in turn keep you from the extra Instant poison procs until it is restacked, but maybe if your gear is really stacked with Haste that window isn't so large (I'm using my Muti gear, so I have a lot of haste, this is my consideration right now). How much do you really get from Enve vs Evis.

On Rupture you can consider how much do you get from Rupture in total compared to instead, say, Evis/Enve. Remember to factor that Rupture is cheaper than they are, and that you will lose damage value if you refresh it early, or if the target dies before the ticks are done.

At the end of the day, the most telling thing you can do is to just play it out. Don't worry about testing, just set your play design and go at the boss for 4-5 minutes. Save that, and try switching it up to something else, the cookie cutter or any other design you might like. Just really play it out for a long enough period to get a good sample size. If you have really nice friends you can even get an enhancement shaman, Retadin, etc to come give you some raid buffs to see if that changes the values (and it might, not everything scales the same). Play will always trump simulators and theorycraft. I've found that to really be the case with Rogues especially with Energy being such a controlling factor.

I did some testing on the dummy sat and have some numbers if you're willing to help.

Rotation Used during 3 minuet test= SnD to 2 points > envenom to 5 points.
Total Number of times used Envenom = 10, total rotations in 3 minuets is 10.
Energy used is 3400, energy gained back from combat potency is 555.
Damage done to dummy in 3 min rotation was 642537 points @ 3200/3300 dps.
Energy used/Damage Gained efficeny rating = 188 damage per energy used
Damage per combo point efficeny rating = 70 total combo points goten over rotation cycle, 9,179.1 points of damage per used combo point

Second rotation was tried using pure Evis, to the tune of 670,070 damage done to dummy over 3 minuets rotation time at roughly the same dps output. Though this would stand to show some increase in damage and combo useage efficeny. Though not much.

Using the same numbers as above for energy cost, and the damage from a pure evis rotation we come up with,
197 damage per energy used, and 9572.42 points of damage per combo point used.

Pure evis rotation with 2 point glyphed SnD (which maintains a perfect 100% uptime in both rotations) is only a 4.7% increase in efficency.

Base Stats
Agil: 1465
Atk Power: 3871
Hit: 428
Expertise 37/37
Crit: 36.79%
Haste: 7.04%
ArP: 21.01% at a rating of 294
MH: Instant
OH: Deadly

Satorri
04-06-2010, 08:40 AM
So, you tried two methods and came up with just doing SnD and Evis was slightly higher on damage, compared to maintaining Rupture, SnD, and using Enve?

If that is the case with all else held equal on a training dummy, then I'd usually favor the simpler method. The only other concern is scaling with buffs.

Let's take a step back and see what we can settle and what needs active attention.

Energy is important, right? So long as you *ever* wait for Energy to use a special move then that is the controlling element. Combat relies on Combat Potency (off-hand hits) as the primary scalable tool to improve energy availability. Vitality and Adrenaline Rush should be constants, with very little variability besides the time of the fight. Combat Potency will scale with the speed of your off-hand, your hit rating, and abilities/talents that increase your swing speed (so haste rating, haste buffs, and SnD).

I don't think anyone will argue that you want SnD up at all times. So we'll take that as baseline.

What can you fit between refreshes? One 5 pt finisher? Two? And how will they scale?

I think it's safe to assume that AP won't have a huge impact, nor should crit since rupture can crit. So the question becomes what other buffs will improve things? Envenom is nature damage, increased by the spell damage raid buff I assume, +13%. If not then nothing else is scaling it. Raid buffs will provide 25% armor ignore (assuming you aren't ArP capping, which you aren't, but I've seen other Combat Rogues pump), which will not be 25% more damage but it will improve your Evis damage by a respectable amount. Rupture will not benefit from armor ignore buffs either.

If I had to guess, from your numbers, I'd wager that the setup with Rupture and Enve wouldn't improve much in a raid, but the pure SnD/Evis will. So chances are that that slight edge will become a bigger edge to that style, and it has no question of losing uptime on 5 stacks of Deadly Poison (and since you're trying to jack up your quick off-hand swings, putting Deadly Poison on that would mean a lot of Instant procs when you're fully stacked, on top of the main hand).

And for gear stats, the Rupture/Enve setup would not really get extra benefit from ArP on gear, while Evis will. This is a big part of why Enve is a core tool for Assassination and ArP is not highly valued.

damionrayne
04-06-2010, 01:53 PM
I decided to hit the dummy with another rotation this morning,

SnD2 > Rup5 > SnD2 > Evis5

Over 3 minuets i did 710,184 points of damage to the dummy at a steady 3600 dps.
I had 6 counts of Rupture costing 150 Energy
I had 6 counts of Evis costing 210 Energy
I had 62 counts of SS costing 2480 energy

Now this is what gets me...2840 energy used for this rotation...the last two were 3400 energy used. Now at 2840 energy used to do 710,184 points of damage the DPE efficeny rating is, 250 points of damage per energy used. If my math is right, that means the Rup/Evis combo with 2 point SnD is 53 points of damage per energy spent more efficent then my other two rotations. That's a huge difference in damage output.

Oh and too anwser your one question Sat, having SnD glyphed and using a 2pt is only enough time to do one finisher and refresh SnD to two points. Though it seems to be the most efficent way as SnD never drops, at all, and you're still throwing out full 5 pt finishers.

So if my math is right, this rotation seems to be the best.

Kazeyonoma
04-06-2010, 02:02 PM
Remember, that just like DpRage is a metric you want to take into account, sometimes you need to counter balance your DPEnergy with damage per global and end output possibilities. Like you listed it's possible to save a ton of energy using a different rotation, but if it didn't show any dps increase, and in some respect a dps decrease (i don't know, i'm not saying yours did, i haven't read through all of this thread since i'm a warrior and don't know the intricacies of a rogue) then it's not worthwhile.

Slam for a warrior is a very efficient damage per rage ability, but in our rotation it still comes last because MS, Execute, and Overpower are higher damage per global and rage isn't a problem once you reach a certain level of gearing. As long as rogues aren't able to squeeze out an extra attack or something by conserving energy, what do you gain other than sitting at a perpetual 20-40 energy versus 0 energy level by doing a higher energy efficient combo setup?

Satorri
04-07-2010, 06:49 AM
Have you tried testing starting with a 2 pt SnD then refreshing it later with a high combo pt version? Maybe if you can go long between refreshes maybe you can fill for bigger damage/dps?

And Kaze, a very important point to keep in mind. I've been trying to come up with a cohesive way to make a more general post about identifying controlling resources. Rogues usually favor Energy over GCDs or ability CDs because they can almost always spend their energy faster than they generate it, so you'll find yourself waiting to fire moves rather than filling every GCD the best you can. I think the only reachable exception currently is with Adrenaline Rush.

I actually really like that about rogues because you aren't necessarily penalized for the little delays caused by latency or the like. You can set a smart pace, a rhythm, and you can sometimes delay action for bigger impact. It makes things dynamic.

damionrayne
04-07-2010, 12:44 PM
Well to anwser both posts lets start with Kaze,

For rogues DPE is thee number that should be closest thing to the front of your mind. Since energy is a constantly regnerating resource for us, and we have no CD's what so ever in our standard ability rotations (save things like killing spree, blade flurry, adren rush etc..) we rely on make sure that we are doing the maximum ammount of damage for all the energy we are spending. If you can A: save energy and B: do more damage while saving that energy...it would only stand to some ammount of logic that you'd want to use less energy and do more damage.

Now with the new rotation I tried last night, I saved allmost 950 points of energy over a 3 minute test fight but did an extra 40k damage. That's not only a big boost in damage, but a shite load of saved energy.

Now for Sato, yes I've tried and it's just not as efficent getting SnD to 5 points, and it waists energy with SS, and looses the quick builds to rup and evis. It is allmost impossible to get not only two 5pt finishers but refresh SnD to a 5 point maximum even with it glyphed adding 3 extra seconds.

This was the old combat rotation when combat was 15/51/5, but moving to 20/51/0 and sacrificing relentless strikes energy regen for increased poision application and poision damage in assassination really hurts our energy regen. The testing I did this morning shows it nearly impossible to do that with current energy regen.

So it stands to reason to keep SnD glyphed, use it at 2 pts and rotate 5pt finishers. You'r constantly tossing out 5pt finishers, and you achieve that perfect 100%SnD uptime that we all know and love.

Satorri
04-07-2010, 03:05 PM
I had a feeling, but I wasn't sure that my brain wasn't just telling me something different than how it would actually work.

damionrayne
04-11-2010, 10:30 PM
Hey Satorri, got some new numbers though the only one that intrigues me at the moment is the ammount of times Rupture is criting. It's actually criting for on average 10% above my actual crit rating. I'm a bit confused now, as I could have thought that rupture's crit was tied directly to my crit rating which is about 36% unbuffed. Any ideas as to why?

I'm assuming maybe just low useage numbers, I might have to run the numbers again after using it more often.

Satorri
04-12-2010, 07:12 AM
Maybe a proc of some sort? But even without that sample size can be meaningful.

If you only test for 3 min that would be at best 90 ticks, probably less, so there is still room for a swing, 10% may be extreme but not impossible.

Do you have any Agi/Crit procs?

damionrayne
04-12-2010, 02:47 PM
The only current proc's on my weapons are Berserking at the moment. Right now Rupture according to my numbers is ticking 8 times per use, and the data for Rupture's is only being recorded as it ticks on target doing damage.

So I'm not sure my auto swings would have anything to do with it. Now if I had mongoose on my blades, then that would of course make a huge difference as the agility proc would throw up my crit chance.

I think I might have to sit down tonight and do some more testing.

Satorri
04-13-2010, 06:38 AM
Yeah, if that's the case it might just have been a statistical variance. It's not common with enough ticks, but it is still certainly possible.

damionrayne
04-13-2010, 05:10 PM
Some numbers for ya,

My Crit % 32.61% unbuffed

Rupture: Used 12.75 times on target dummy

78 Counts Normal Hit @ 76.5% Damage @ an Average Normal Hit of 385 Points/Tick
24 Counts Crit Hit @ 23.5% Damage @ an Average Crit Hit of 962 Points/Tick

53,089 Damage done to target dummy over 12/13 uses.