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Frostglaive
04-03-2010, 03:10 PM
So I was looking over my talents, and thought I could make some changes. Currently, this is my talent setup for prot: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Li0h0fZhZVItrx0didczsGo

Now, my idea is that I was using Iron Will as a filler. What it be better to put 2 of those points in Improved Rend for threat, and to help dps. And then put the other point in Improved Heroic Strike for more threat as well. What do you guys think?

Arikak
04-03-2010, 03:18 PM
Take all your points out of Iron Will. Use one point to max out Imp. Heroic Strike and put the other two into Improved Charge.

Really don't even bother with Rend. You're weapon damage is low with a one-handed weapon and you really don't have any free Global Cooldowns to use as Prot so Rend would be a DPS loss.

Hope that helps!

//kak

Frostglaive
04-03-2010, 03:26 PM
The thing is, I use rend in my rotation. I hold threat wonderfully fine, and time to time I have Arms warriors, mutilate rogues, or feral druids who can benefit from the rend. Improved Charge I don't really see a use in since I have plenty of rage as it is.

Kurtosis
04-03-2010, 04:44 PM
Edit: if you've got no threat problems, no rage problems, don't want the extra rage on charge, and want to help your physical dps'ers with an extra bleed, then yeah, get rid of Iron will and put the left over points in Improved HS and Rend (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAb00fZhZVItrx0didczsGo:dchzMm). Iron will does nothing for you in raids, it's more of a pvp talent.

Aggathon
04-03-2010, 05:00 PM
Rend is both a TPS and DPS LOSS. It does less damage and less threat than any other ability you could do that requires a global cooldown (aka devastate, revenge, shield slam, shockwave, and even conq blow as far as threat goes).

Let me say this clearly so that there is no confusion on this...

As a tank... NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER REND OR SPEC INTO IMP REND, EVER EVER.

Frostglaive
04-03-2010, 05:17 PM
Rend is both a TPS and DPS LOSS. It does less damage and less threat than any other ability you could do that requires a global cooldown (aka devastate, revenge, shield slam, shockwave, and even conq blow as far as threat goes).

Let me say this clearly so that there is no confusion on this...

As a tank... NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER REND OR SPEC INTO IMP REND, EVER EVER.

Alright, what do you say I should put the points into then?

Naka
04-03-2010, 05:39 PM
and time to time I have Arms warriors, mutilate rogues, or feral druids who can benefit from the rend.

Wait... how exactly do said classes benefit from your rend?

Frostglaive
04-03-2010, 05:43 PM
Wait... how exactly do said classes benefit from your rend?

Feral benefit from bleed effects when using Mangle, Arms warrior put up trauma which increases bleed damage which helps dps, and mutilate rogues get to use Hunger for Blood when a bleed effect is on the target.

Harmacy
04-03-2010, 08:14 PM
Feral benefit from bleed effects when using Mangle, Arms warrior put up trauma which increases bleed damage which helps dps, and mutilate rogues get to use Hunger for Blood when a bleed effect is on the target.

Neither Feral nor Arms would benefit from YOUR bleed effect though, and if a rogue needs to have a bleed up, he can use Rupture instead of making you waste a GCD fairly often.

Arikak
04-03-2010, 08:34 PM
Neither Feral nor Arms would benefit from YOUR bleed effect though, and if a rogue needs to have a bleed up, he can use Rupture instead of making you waste a GCD fairly often.

Quoting this just for extra emphasis. Your Rend will benefit from Bleed increasing effects. No other class will benefit from you having Rend up.

As for talents: If nothing else in the arms tree is interesting to you you can always spend points on improving your shouts, Cruelty, Imp. Cleave, or (as I would suggest) Focused Rage. I would still highly recommend maxing out Imp. Heroic Strike.

Try a build like this. (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZVItrx0didczsGo)

Aggathon
04-04-2010, 12:24 AM
Alright, what do you say I should put the points into then?

Put them in imp charge.

5/5 parry, 3/3 imp HS, 2/2 imp charge, 2/2 impale, 3/3 deep wounds <- that should be your arms tree as a tank unless you are going a max survival spec. Imp charge is the only talent you'll get use out of based on the given options.

Edit: Also I agree with Arikak's build, though you could move 3 points in shield spec to focused rage instead, but that is personal preference and not currently in question.

Frostglaive
04-04-2010, 06:51 PM
Alright, that's what I was going to go for in the arms tree. Also, a question about taking 3 out of the Shield Specialization, and putting them into Focused Rage. What's the benefit out of taking points out of something that has a chance to reduce damage done to you, for something that reduces the cost of all 'offensive' abilities by 3? It doesn't seem like much, and if you're tanking something rage is no problem.

Amaranthine
04-04-2010, 07:42 PM
Rend is both a TPS and DPS LOSS. It does less damage and less threat than any other ability you could do that requires a global cooldown (aka devastate, revenge, shield slam, shockwave, and even conq blow as far as threat goes).

Let me say this clearly so that there is no confusion on this...

As a tank... NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER REND OR SPEC INTO IMP REND, EVER EVER.

I respectfully disagree with agg. He is a much better smarter sexier more good looking tank than me, but rend is grealy useful if you're using the blood draining enchant.

Were i using blood draining (which i'm not but plan to switch back to for experimentations sake) i would have rend up whenever possible. But even then i would NEVER spec into it

Aggathon
04-04-2010, 08:10 PM
Deep wounds is more than enough and blood draining procs off of melee hits AND bleeds, so really melee should be enough and melee + DW is more than enough.

squats
04-04-2010, 08:45 PM
Alright, that's what I was going to go for in the arms tree. Also, a question about taking 3 out of the Shield Specialization, and putting them into Focused Rage. What's the benefit out of taking points out of something that has a chance to reduce damage done to you, for something that reduces the cost of all 'offensive' abilities by 3? It doesn't seem like much, and if you're tanking something rage is no problem.
Rage is often more of an issue then you would think in ICC. 2% block doesnt really do much for you and would only be an issue if your healer comp is very gimped for some reason.

Loganisis
04-05-2010, 06:43 AM
Rage is often more of an issue then you would think in ICC. 2% block doesnt really do much for you and would only be an issue if your healer comp is very gimped for some reason.

The caveat to this is we've only reach the professor.

Which fights? The only time I'm ever concerned about rage is during taunt fights like Saurfang who don't drop a damage don't on you (which made rage a non-issue in other taunt fights like Gluth and Gormock).

Trash pulls were a rage problem until I figured out the Pally I run with is just going to be in the middle of a mob-bang, so I taunt one off, taunt another, and use cleave/execute to keep them focused on me while using TC/Demo/Shockwave on the full group. This keeps me getting hit enough to keep me raging.

With the 20% avoidence debuff, I haven't really seen any rage problems because I'm always getting hit. Have I just been lucky compared to you?

MellvarTank
04-05-2010, 09:29 AM
I have actually been starved on a few fights in ICC, particularily when there is a lot of "stop attacking the tank to cast something"... ie. Rotface - Slime spray.

Loganisis
04-05-2010, 10:23 AM
I have actually been starved on a few fights in ICC, particularily when there is a lot of "stop attacking the tank to cast something"... ie. Rotface - Slime spray.

Is it really an issue though? At that point you're miles ahead in threat and there's nothing that he does that you must have rage that very second to counteract (unlike say Jax's Fireball and shield bash).

Maybe I have been rage-depleted temporarily since there was no real effect on the fight (any any DPS loss on my end from not have rage is absoutely trivial - my tank DPS is almost a non-factor it seems like - but I keep the aggro easily enough).

It's entirely probable that I'm missing some key element here, but outside of taunt-fights I've never been hindered by my rage levels -- my biggest problem is still learning to anticipate healing drop-offs due to events. Rage isn't in the same zipcode as that one.

Aggathon
04-05-2010, 12:49 PM
It's really personal preference whether you go 5/5 shield spec or 3/3 focused rage 2/5 shield spec. Focused rage is more efficient and results in overall higher rage gains in ICC as far as talents go, however some people prefer the extra block and don't have rage problems either way. Imo it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other, neither spec choice will cause you grief (unless you're tanking H-Anub25 adds, in which case you NEED 5/5 shield spec).

MellvarTank
04-05-2010, 01:06 PM
I can't say it's caused any issues... I just like to have rage all the time. :)

Frostglaive
04-05-2010, 01:44 PM
Thing is, I see myself always as someone who needs to have survivability. When on mobs, I CAN have rage problems if I don't do the right thing. Bloodthirst, Thunder Clap, Shockwave, then cleave + revenge = instant threat and more rage. On boss fights I don't even worry about rage, as a matter of fact I can't get enough rage. As far as I can see, the only time you'll have rage problems is when you don't have threat, and in that case the 3- rage requirement won't make that big of a difference any who. But yes, thank you for the arms advice and to each their own. :P

On a second note, what do you guys think: Glyph of Block or Glyph of Devastate. Is the block from the glyph that great compared to the rage saver + rotation simplification of the glyph of devastate?

Aggathon
04-05-2010, 01:49 PM
after 3.3.3 devastate doesn't simplify the rotation since revenge got buffed again. Devastate is more threat by a long shot hands down, but glyph of blocking is nice and is more survivability (20% more SBV with shield block up is very nice imo) and a little but of extra threat. So it kinda depends on what you need/want.

thebda
04-05-2010, 09:22 PM
If you want to help out mdps I usually use spare GCD's after I've established threat to spam devastate w/ glyph of sunder armor (sunders 2 targets w/ devastate also) as I'm sure stacking armor debufs will add more damage to the party than the bleed.

Harmacy
04-06-2010, 06:12 AM
I tried out Glyph of Sunder Armor on my scrubwar, and found it to be a whole lot of 'meh' for tanking heroics. Cleaving is bombing for AoE threat, Devastate is fantastic for single-target threat (and since you will be spreading the love tab-targeting with it, it's ok for sustained AoE threat as well), and then for the third slot I use Vigilance. I've been debating replacing one with Blocking, but I like my current glyph setup for now (gonna switch Vigi to Shield Wall once I get into actual raiding, if I ever get around to it lol).