PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Question about: Deep wonds in a protection build



JAzko
04-02-2010, 03:13 PM
Can anyone produce some numbers showing why some one with an ICC 25 weapon would keep DWs in there build with the new imp rev out points are so tight i want to see some supporting reason on why to keep it in a build. thanks for your time and advise. also please include if you know it how much on avrage threat it is producing with a 1.6 ish weapon

Arikak
04-02-2010, 03:33 PM
There are numbers here to be found if you look for them. Also, many more numbers over at ElitistJerks.

But long story short: More Damage = More threat and Faster Boss kills. Plus it's a pretty essential AoE tanking ability.

Though, if you find you need the points elsewhere you can easily drop it. It won't make or break you at all as a tank. What you end up speccing into totally depends on what your personal raid needs.

Hope that helps.

Tengenstein
04-02-2010, 05:57 PM
the alternatives to deep wounds are generally;

Improved Demo shout - approx. 17% less physical damage from bosses. if you have someone else putting the Atk Pwr debuff up (i.e ret pally, prot pally, bear, fury warrior. arms warrior, aff lock, BM hunter), and thats fairly likely then there is really bugger all reason for the prot warrior to take Imp demo shout.

Improved disciplines - 2 minute shield walls are nice but i find it it a double edged sword; since we have to Glyph for this aswell, and it drops the effectiveness of the cooldowns use, while this is great on fights like saurfang as it allows a great CD rotation each time you take the boss, its really isn't worht it on some thing like festergut where 40% damage reduction just isn't as good a 60% damage reduction. in ulduar 2 minute CDs where pretty much mandatory, in ICC not so much

Improved spell reflect - 4% less spell hits. but most boss spells aren't gonna miss anyway, and you can't reflect any of them either.

Fenier
04-02-2010, 06:57 PM
Improved Demo shout - approx. 17% less physical damage from bosses. if you have someone else putting the Atk Pwr debuff up (i.e ret pally, prot pally, bear, fury warrior. arms warrior, aff lock, BM hunter), and thats fairly likely then there is really bugger all reason for the prot warrior to take Imp demo shout.

It's less then a 5% difference over the baseline, according to my math is in the high 4% range.

Additionally, Any Hunter with a Carrion Bird is -575 AP, not just BM hunters.

squats
04-02-2010, 08:31 PM
http://rehfeld.us/wow/tps/

This should still work. WWS wont recognize the fight itself... but i think this program can still sift through it and come out with the correct numbers. id give it a try.

i wish this would be updated so we could use a more popular parsing site like worldoflogs

Satorri
04-03-2010, 06:13 AM
Since the tps parser still only works on WWS which hasn't been updated in months, I'd assume the parser doesn't have up-to-date threat multipliers either.

Nehama
04-03-2010, 02:04 PM
the alternatives to deep wounds are generally;

Improved disciplines - 2 minute shield walls are nice but i find it it a double edged sword; since we have to Glyph for this aswell, and it drops the effectiveness of the cooldowns use, while this is great on fights like saurfang as it allows a great CD rotation each time you take the boss, its really isn't worht it on some thing like festergut where 40% damage reduction just isn't as good a 60% damage reduction. in ulduar 2 minute CDs where pretty much mandatory, in ICC not so much



Imp. Disicplines are optional? I thought every MT warrior would want them. I can't think of a fight [even fester] where you wouldn't want your SW to be on a 2 min CD. And more important - I can't think of anything else better to put them. [Spell reflect doesn't really worth those 2 points, I might swap the imp revange for imp. spell reflect tho.]

JollyWarrior
04-04-2010, 01:34 AM
Imp. Disicplines are optional? I thought every MT warrior would want them. I can't think of a fight [even fester] where you wouldn't want your SW to be on a 2 min CD. And more important - I can't think of anything else better to put them. [Spell reflect doesn't really worth those 2 points, I might swap the imp revange for imp. spell reflect tho.]

You aren't going to be popping shield wall twice during the time that you're tanking Festergut and 75% will help out so much more than 40% during that burst (I've only tanked on 10m, 25m I've not paid attention to timers, but it doesn't seem that you would be able to use it twice during that burst.) Imp Spell Reflect is a PvP thing just as imp intervene and imp disarm are. That 2/4% isn't making much difference.

Blizz designed encounters threat based on the DW build, no reason to reinvent the wheel (at least for progression raiding.)

Dragaan
04-04-2010, 06:44 AM
You aren't going to be popping shield wall twice during the time that you're tanking Festergut and 75% will help out so much more than 40% during that burst (I've only tanked on 10m, 25m I've not paid attention to timers, but it doesn't seem that you would be able to use it twice during that burst.) Imp Spell Reflect is a PvP thing just as imp intervene and imp disarm are. That 2/4% isn't making much difference.

Blizz designed encounters threat based on the DW build, no reason to reinvent the wheel (at least for progression raiding.)

I use shield wall twice on festergut. It's always nice to have a 2min shield wall. I'm pretty sure most hardmode-tanking prot warriors get imp disc 2/2 in their main spec, whether it's a deep wounds spec or an imp demo spec.

Fenier
04-04-2010, 08:38 AM
If you tank Festergut first, you could use Shield Wall twice during the encounter unless your DPS is crazy high and he dies shortly after you'd have to pick him back up again.

JAzko
04-04-2010, 09:46 AM
what about going for commanding presence if you don't have a good furry warrior to put it up

Arikak
04-04-2010, 04:36 PM
what about going for commanding presence if you don't have a good furry warrior to put it up

You start to sacrifice a lot in the Prot tree for those points in Commanding Presence. Though it can be done.

Could try something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZGV00xZcItrx0didIzsbo

Dropped Damage Shield but you could sub out points in Imp. Disciplines, Shield Specialization, Focused Rage, or Imp. Revenge.

JollyWarrior
04-04-2010, 06:58 PM
If you tank Festergut first, you could use Shield Wall twice during the encounter unless your DPS is crazy high and he dies shortly after you'd have to pick him back up again.

I always tank 2nd and never paid it any mind. If I start tanking the 25m as well I'll keep that in mind.

Muffin Man
04-05-2010, 01:53 AM
You aren't going to be popping shield wall twice during the time that you're tanking Festergut and 75% will help out so much more than 40% during that burst (I've only tanked on 10m, 25m I've not paid attention to timers, but it doesn't seem that you would be able to use it twice during that burst.) Imp Spell Reflect is a PvP thing just as imp intervene and imp disarm are. That 2/4% isn't making much difference.

Be aware the SW is 60% reduction and only goes down to 40% with the glyph not with Improved Disciplines.


Blizz designed encounters threat based on the DW build, no reason to reinvent the wheel (at least for progression raiding.)

I don't believe this is true, but if you have a quote I'll stand to be corrected. Warrior TPS is based around Vigilance (which can also be glyphed) and our recent dps buffs are all increasing our threat without any nerfs so I'm not sure that Warrior threat is really a concern anyways.

JollyWarrior
04-05-2010, 12:05 PM
Be aware the SW is 60% reduction and only goes down to 40% with the glyph not with Improved Disciplines.

But 4 min isn't so significant thus why it's recommended to glyph for it if you put points in it.




I don't believe this is true, but if you have a quote I'll stand to be corrected. Warrior TPS is based around Vigilance (which can also be glyphed) and our recent dps buffs are all increasing our threat without any nerfs so I'm not sure that Warrior threat is really a concern anyways.

I read it on tankspot from someone, I'm not sure the exact source.

MellvarTank
04-05-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm just a little curious what the OP is getting at... I have 2/2 Imp. Disc.... Deep Wounds, and Imp. Revenge... what build are you using that you can't get points in all of those talents?

Brage
04-05-2010, 03:19 PM
An educated guess would be a build that incorporates cruelty aswell, allthough i'd wonder why.

MellvarTank
04-05-2010, 03:20 PM
I hate that build! lol

Vlad
04-05-2010, 10:41 PM
Personally I've never understood DW specs, I know the reasoning but never had threat issues on my Warrior.
I've used this spec for a long time:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZGV00xZVItrx0zVbIzsGo:dbcomM

Great survivability, high raid health.. AE and single target threat is loopy. and Vig? my taunt is never refreshed.. no-one pulls heh.

Arikak
04-05-2010, 11:46 PM
Personally I've never understood DW specs, I know the reasoning but never had threat issues on my Warrior.
I've used this spec for a long time:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZGV00xZVItrx0zVbIzsGo:dbcomM

Great survivability, high raid health.. AE and single target threat is loopy. and Vig? my taunt is never refreshed.. no-one pulls heh.

Really, if you don't stray too badly in your protection tree (is that even possible these days O.o) it really doesn't matter where you spend your points in Arms and Fury (as long as you take 5/5 Deflection). It really comes down to the talents being more or less optimal. Though, Fully Improved Demo Shout can be huge if someone else in your raid isn't bringing it.

Brage
04-06-2010, 05:25 AM
The main reason for taking DW has never been more threat though, as the threat itself from the talent is minor. It certainly isn't the talent that makes the adds stick to you, not if your dps'ers know what they're doing atleast.
DW got interesting in Naxx because it moved us abit closer to the other tanks dps wise - and before the nerf perhaps even higher than the others.

I would certainly be able to tank effectively without anything in arms, but the only thing you gain from fury as such, are tool that other classes tend to bring. So unless you're going with a flawed setup, you might aswell go for more damage.