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AoS-Jackburton
04-01-2010, 09:38 AM
I'm the MT (prot warrior) in a casual raiding guild (currently 9/12 in 10man ICC) and I have a question regarding glyphs in 3.3.3. Currently, I'm running with glyphs of Blocking, Devastate, and Revenge (loving this since the Revenge changes in 3.3), but I wanted to incorporate Glyph of Shield Wall in there instead. Which glyph should I drop? Is there another glyph that I'm not considering that should be in the conversation?

Spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZVItrx0didczsGo

Bodasafa
04-01-2010, 09:45 AM
Drop revenge, when your tanking bosses your getting smashed in the face so hard your rage is through the roof, thus wasting the need for the revenge glyph.

Aggathon
04-01-2010, 09:50 AM
That and if you are wanting threat there are far better threat glyphs than revenge, I'd take vigilance over revenge if you need threat, but since you have the devastate glyph you probably don't need threat. I have it outlined in my guide, but basically last stand/blocking/shield wall are the best survival glyphs. If you want to switch in something like taunt or devastate, then switch out glyph of blocking unless it's a fight where you can only shield wall once or will only need shield wall once, then drop shield wall for something. Or last stand I guess, depending on. I actually like the last stand glyph more than shield wall since it has a lower cooldown and no negative effects, but that also comes down to playstyle (last stand is my go-to "OH F!@#" button).

Kazeyonoma
04-01-2010, 10:01 AM
blocking is mediocre, and does glyph of revenge still just give you 1 free HS? in a raid situation you'll either be swimming in rage, or not, if you're swimming, a free HS just means more time you're at 100 rage, if you're not swimming in it, you'd be prioritizing getting more gcd abilities out anyways rather than try to work in a HS (low threat move! high risk!) after a revenge lands.

Devastate/Last Stand/Shield Wall never look back, swap out devastate or last stand for glyph of taunt on taunt sensitive fights.

Bodasafa
04-01-2010, 02:52 PM
To be honest Ive never really seen a fight where a 2 min shield wall was needed other than blood queen. I would use it every air phase to reduce blood bolt damage so our healers could focus on keeping the DPS up.

I would agree that Blocking falls short these days.

Thinking on this I need to change some glyphs up...

mistersix
04-01-2010, 04:16 PM
That and if you are wanting threat there are far better threat glyphs than revenge, I'd take vigilance over revenge if you need threat, but since you have the devastate glyph you probably don't need threat. I have it outlined in my guide, but basically last stand/blocking/shield wall are the best survival glyphs. If you want to switch in something like taunt or devastate, then switch out glyph of blocking unless it's a fight where you can only shield wall once or will only need shield wall once, then drop shield wall for something. Or last stand I guess, depending on. I actually like the last stand glyph more than shield wall since it has a lower cooldown and no negative effects, but that also comes down to playstyle (last stand is my go-to "OH F!@#" button).

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Glyphed shield wall is my default panic button. I don't like how the last stand glyph breaks the synergy last stand naturally has with enraged regen. Now if the last stand glyph kept the normal cooldown but added an ardent defender or wotn style effect, I'd be all over it.

This all comes down to cooldown philosophy really. I'm of the strong opinion that major cooldowns (shield wall, last stand) should typically have 2 minute cooldowns and that lesser cooldowns (shield block, avoidance clickies, etc.) should be 1 minute or less. The majors are your ohsit buttons, the minors used to smooth out regular damage intake. Cooldowns should always be active. These lazy the game procs it for you cooldowns have got to go.

Kazeyonoma
04-01-2010, 06:00 PM
yeah i hit shield wall all the time, sometime son overpulled trash, often when healers get hit by something they shouldn't, or just when i notice my hp dipping i just pop it unless i know i need to save it for something during the fight. If it's gonna help me survive/healers job why the hell not. and with it being 2 minutes, i can pop it early in the fight, and again near the end, and on longer fights like LK, i can use it constantly.

Spiff
04-01-2010, 07:18 PM
i think the sheldwall glyph is awesome, theres some fights when I pop shield wall right off the bat to give my healers a chance to get situated or wake up, which ever is the case. Last Stand/Shield wall with blocking/dev/taunt/cleave being mainly what i rotate in the 3rd slot

Aggathon
04-01-2010, 08:50 PM
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Glyphed shield wall is my default panic button. I don't like how the last stand glyph breaks the synergy last stand naturally has with enraged regen. Now if the last stand glyph kept the normal cooldown but added an ardent defender or wotn style effect, I'd be all over it.

This all comes down to cooldown philosophy really. I'm of the strong opinion that major cooldowns (shield wall, last stand) should typically have 2 minute cooldowns and that lesser cooldowns (shield block, avoidance clickies, etc.) should be 1 minute or less. The majors are your ohsit buttons, the minors used to smooth out regular damage intake. Cooldowns should always be active. These lazy the game procs it for you cooldowns have got to go.

While I agree that enraged regen is used best with last stand, I felt it also completely unnecessary when you have last stand up. I use enraged regen either in conjunction with a trinket or with like health stone or something. It makes it so I basically have 4 very effective oh shit buttons, shield block, last stand, shield wall, and trinket+enraged regen (and by trinket I mean Satrina's/Jug's Vit).

jugggernaut
04-01-2010, 10:09 PM
The glyphs I use are:

Shield wall
Last stand
Devastate

On boss fights where taunt can make or break, I will bring extra glyphs of Taunt and Devastate. I swap Dev to Taunt and when it's over I swap back. I forget where I learned this but It is very handy, glyphs are very cheap on my server as well.

Bukama
04-02-2010, 12:05 AM
To be honest Ive never really seen a fight where a 2 min shield wall was needed other than blood queen. I would use it every air phase to reduce blood bolt damage so our healers could focus on keeping the DPS up.

I would agree that Blocking falls short these days.

Thinking on this I need to change some glyphs up...

where you need 2min shieldwall on bloodqueen Oo

i like the 2min shieldwall on arthas and some hardmodes and don't want to miss it

AoS-Jackburton
04-02-2010, 08:09 AM
All good posts - I'll probably go Shield Wall, Last Stand and Devastate, bringing along some extra glyphs of Taunt and Devastate for swapping in that last spot. Like someone said, major glyphs are dirt cheap, so I can afford to take extras in case Taunt becomes critical.

Thanks!

mistersix
04-02-2010, 10:14 AM
While I agree that enraged regen is used best with last stand, I felt it also completely unnecessary when you have last stand up. I use enraged regen either in conjunction with a trinket or with like health stone or something. It makes it so I basically have 4 very effective oh shit buttons, shield block, last stand, shield wall, and trinket+enraged regen (and by trinket I mean Satrina's/Jug's Vit).

I wouldn't really call shield block an oh shit button personally. I tend to use last stand with enraged, shield wall, trinket 1, trinket 2

gacktt
04-02-2010, 11:19 AM
Shield wall, last stand and devastate. Enraged regen also seems like a flavorful glyph when you're rocking 100k hp with stand + trinkets up.

Aggathon
04-02-2010, 11:45 PM
I wouldn't really call shield block an oh shit button personally. I tend to use last stand with enraged, shield wall, trinket 1, trinket 2

Shield block can block up to 8k damage when up for me. Against a boss that hits for 20k, that's equivalent to a shield wall. It translates to an overall like 32% reduction in damage taken or something like that. I figured the exact number once but I forgot. Point is shield block is a REALLY good damage stopping button and is a go-to damage reducer for me. Do NOT underestimate it.

mistersix
04-03-2010, 03:56 PM
I think we're saying the same thing really. Those 20k hits are the basically the baseline melee swings not the special ability "tank killers".

Aggathon
04-03-2010, 04:57 PM
It's still a cooldown that's better than barksin imo. If you use it preemptively to mitigate normal damage then tank killers aren't that bad, and further more in ICC there aren't a lot of bosses that do tank killer abilities, they just hit REALLY REALLY REALLY hard and knowing when to effectively use shield block will both significantly decrease your damage intake and save your life. A healer would much rather you get hit for 20k than 28k+, trust me (see: H-Blood Princes damage, they hit really hard).

Spiff
04-04-2010, 09:45 AM
Shield Block completely saved my skin last night on our Festergut heroic10. He hits EXTREMELY hard even at one or two inhales. And when you know your going to take a larger hit then you had previously (right as he does his second inhale), Shield block is a great "lesser cooldown" to use to if you don't quite need to blow LS or SW yet, but just need a little extra breathing room, but in our working through hardmodes i've started to see how useful it is.

markv
04-04-2010, 05:54 PM
LDW/Gunship/Dreamwlker I use Dev/Cleave/Sunder because they are AoE intensive fights and it makes life that much easier in keeping threat on the mobs.

Everything else I do Dev/SW/Taunt. 2 minute SWs are money in my books for hard modes. I don't glyph LS because as someone said before with the lost synergy of ER when you do that.

For heroics I do Dev/Cleave/Sunder.

I use 1 tanking spec now instead of 2 and just swap around my glyphs as needed. This lets me PvP when I'm bored, yay!

Spiff
04-04-2010, 08:43 PM
I don't care much about the synergy between LS and ER. LS is an awesome cooldown without having to use ER with it and I feel like i'm punishing my self by letting it have an extra minute cooldown just so I can us ER with it. Alot can happen in a minute, especially in the high burst content we have now.

Aggathon
04-04-2010, 08:53 PM
I don't care much about the synergy between LS and ER. LS is an awesome cooldown without having to use ER with it and I feel like i'm punishing my self by letting it have an extra minute cooldown just so I can us ER with it. Alot can happen in a minute, especially in the high burst content we have now.

^ I completely agree with this. Let me also reiterate, Last Stand is an amazing cooldown on its own, there is NO reason to use ER with it, it is just wasted healing imo. Using ER in conjunction with a trinket or something is much MUCH more effective and essentially gives you ANOTHER cooldown.

Muffin Man
04-05-2010, 02:01 AM
Shield block can block up to 8k damage when up for me. Against a boss that hits for 20k, that's equivalent to a shield wall. It translates to an overall like 32% reduction in damage taken or something like that. I figured the exact number once but I forgot. Point is shield block is a REALLY good damage stopping button and is a go-to damage reducer for me. Do NOT underestimate it.

People underestimate Shield Block a lot, especially after the buff to Critical Block. The key to remember is that Critical Block and Shield Block stack, which means 4x strength block. And Critical Block has a 60% proc chance.

This is actually when I like to use Enraged Regen to make it close to a third bonafide cooldown (with a quick trigger finger ready for a healthstone).

markv
04-05-2010, 03:53 AM
On fights with a tank transitions I save shield block for that, it helps smooth out the healing a bit on the changes with the healers I'm with. Otherwise I tend to use it when I know there's going to be large spike damage coming soon and I won't be using SW at the time.

feralminded
04-05-2010, 01:06 PM
I'm surprised there's much of a discussion at all. Shield Wall and Last Stand seem mandatory for raid tanking. Taunt is also mandatory for taunt fights. I guess the only debate is for fights without a taunt, Shield block or devastate ... but that's hardly a very interesting conversation or a very important one. You could throw cleave into the mix for trash if you really like swapping glyphs ... but I usually have my pallies or druids do most of the AoE tanking while I focus on the casters or main targets.

I mean for heroics obviously a completely different set of glyphs matter but I've found at this point in heroics I just wear mostly DPS gear and do my best tanking that way and not worry too much about it.

Aggathon
04-05-2010, 01:07 PM
Well shield wall honestly isn't needed for every fight. There are some fights that you'll use it for a specific time (however this was far more prevalent in Ulduar than in ToC or ICC), and others where you may use it on cooldown, however off the top of my head festergut is the only one I can think of where you will and can only use shield wall once. So I'd still spec/glyph it 99.99% of the time. SW/LS/Blocking for max surivability, SW/LS/Devastate if you need threat, SW/LS/Taunt on fights where you need to taunt. <- That is my official stance!

mistersix
04-05-2010, 01:36 PM
but I usually have my pallies or druids do most of the AoE tanking

Druids? Really?

Aggathon
04-05-2010, 01:51 PM
Druids? Really?

Swipe spam! SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM. It's actually pretty legit, but there's no reason why a warrior can't AoE tank too, especially with the revenge changes.

feralminded
04-05-2010, 03:49 PM
Swipe spam! SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM. It's actually pretty legit, but there's no reason why a warrior can't AoE tank too, especially with the revenge changes. You know its funny around the time that revenge came about I ditched my cleave glyph so I noticed pretty much a net gain of 0 when it comes to AoE tanking. Honestly I can probably keep up with them if I hit all 7 buttons perfectly but they only have to hit 2 so what's the point? Bragging rights? Nah I'm much better utilized interrupting, stunning, intervening, and otherwise holding down single targets effectively when it comes to trash pulls. That's just my opinion though, I know there's lots of warriors out there who take those kinds of statements personally.

Aggathon
04-05-2010, 04:38 PM
Ya, I'll admit it's probably harder for us to AoE tank, but doable none-the-less. I personally usually alt tabbed and talked to people or made food or something during trash and let our pally and druid tear it up =P. BUT SHHH I DON'T THINK MY OLD GUILD NEW THAT.