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View Full Version : Tanking Expertise and endgame ICC 25 heroic tanking....



Feebel the Pickle Lord
03-28-2010, 01:18 PM
I'm curious as to what high end tanks (prot war's appreciated) are rolling with in expertise and why. Seems like most high end tanks don't really seem to care about it at all. Alternate opinions would be appreciated.

Martie
03-28-2010, 01:47 PM
It's one of those stats that isn't overly important, but not completely ignorable either.

Generally, I've seen my warriors focus on other stats, and have enough expertise as secondary stats because it's on the gear anyway.

Muffin Man
03-28-2010, 02:54 PM
Expertise used to be (and still is) the best threat stat. With the added benefit that you could gain some survivability out of it (by reducing boss parry hastes, there used to be a long, long thread on it here).

But, just about every boss in ICC has parry haste disabled. So now it's just a (great) threat stat, and well... have you seen the silliness that is tank threat now? Be it revenege or icy touch, ect.

Also, other than BQL and Festergut there really aren't threat sensitive fights in ICC, just wow he hits really hard fights. But that's a bit of speculation since I haven't seen all the bosses yet.

Bodasafa
03-28-2010, 03:04 PM
I firmly believe in having 26 expertise skill if it is within reach. Realistically you can maintain 26 without much issue given the correct ICC gear, however if you are in a transition phase waiting for some drops you could dip below, as is my current case now. I use x2 Guardian Dreadstones (each gives 1.22 Skill) and eat the expertise food (gives 4.88 skill) to reach 26 skill. Due to the correct placement of the 2 hybrid gems I gain some stamina lost back with the bonuses.

Spiff
03-28-2010, 03:33 PM
I would agree with Boda, if its reasonlably within reach you should get the 26 exp skill. Personally i'm using 2-3 Guardian's Dreadstones (activating 9-12 stam bonuses) in my gear set up to hit the 26 mark without the food. I can see it becoming a problem if your using a 4P T10/pillars of might set up, since your not having the emblem chest and its massive exp boost though.

Foxlarocks
03-28-2010, 03:51 PM
I am stting at 12 expertise, and I am an Orc using an axe haha.
NONE of my gear has expertise on it. There are a few key upgrades I need that have expertise.

Feebel the Pickle Lord
03-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Well honestly I'm thinking of practically ignoring it, TPS issues are silly/non-existent. The parry haste factor is almost the only thing I'd worry about so I'm really wondering the value if at all of the stat anymore.

Edgewalker
03-28-2010, 04:11 PM
39 Expertise at the moment. Heroic Grinning Skull Greatboots, Cataclysmic Chestguard, the 277 ilvl Tanking Pants, and talents.

Martie
03-28-2010, 04:16 PM
Well honestly I'm thinking of practically ignoring it, TPS issues are silly/non-existent. The parry haste factor is almost the only thing I'd worry about so I'm really wondering the value if at all of the stat anymore.
I hear a lot of people say this, but it's definatly not my experience.

True, when people play right, threat never becomes a real issue, but there are a lot of moments, especially at the beginning of a fight, where I simply need those misdirects and tricks to keep my threat up.
I doubt I'm doing anything wrong and my gear kicks ass, but it may have something to do with having some 12-15k dps people in my raid.

jugggernaut
03-28-2010, 04:19 PM
there's only two bosses that parry haste in icc, deathwhisper and sindragosa i believe. expertise is purely for TPS in icc for that reason

Kazeyonoma
03-28-2010, 10:34 PM
there's only two bosses that parry haste in icc, deathwhisper and sindragosa i believe. expertise is purely for TPS in icc for that reason

Do you have proof of this? I'm almost positive I've seen more than just those two bosses swing faster than 2 seconds at me.

Rhyseh
03-28-2010, 10:40 PM
Here you are Kaze.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=27934&rb_v=viewtopic

My opinion: Get expertise if you need the threat. If you don't.... take it as it comes, although I generally try and stay above 20 simply to make pickups easier. Nothing more irritating that a miss/dodge/parry when you are trying to pickup a new add spawn.

Taryn
03-29-2010, 02:48 AM
i currently have some expertise gems to match socket bonuses in my gear while we are wiping at sindragosa25 hc. she definatly has parry haste enabled, actually half of the wipes of the first evening came from it because the melees stood a little bit "in front of her" at her side and produced some nice parrys. with good hits she just 2 shoots me (32k hits, 62k hp in frost resist currently) and its a huge difference if the healers got 1.8s to land a heal or 1.2s :(. after sindragosa i will probably regem to max stam for lk hc.

Dreadski
03-29-2010, 09:13 AM
I have 16 skill and have zero threat problems.

Naka
03-29-2010, 09:53 AM
Do you have proof of this? I'm almost positive I've seen more than just those two bosses swing faster than 2 seconds at me.

That's because several bosses in ICC simply have a base swing timer of 1.5 or faster.

Superworm
03-31-2010, 02:46 AM
there's only two bosses that parry haste in icc, deathwhisper and sindragosa i believe. expertise is purely for TPS in icc for that reason

Agreed. Also the value of expertise depends on classes. Paladins will find expertise most valuable as most of their attacks counts as two attacks with SoV up. 2-hander DKs will find it least interesting as rune strikes and spells can not be parried or dodged. Even at the beginning of a fight, DKs could use IT to build a leading threat and IT is a spell which only concerns hit.

gacktt
03-31-2010, 03:57 AM
Expertise is only important if you have actual threat problems, however you do get some from gear by default anyway.

Bigbad
03-31-2010, 04:25 AM
Using 4piece T10+ emblem chest atm which gets me 28 expertise but i'd like to switch over to T10 chest and crafted legs. The thing is that the only fight where i felt a little squishy was lich king P2/3 starting hardmodes this week, is it worth dropping expertise from 28 to 8 just to get the extra armor from the legs. http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&cn=Bigbadorugly

Specially now the 10% buff will be active this week how will 20 expertise skill vs armor from the legs hold up. Dropping to 8 expertise just feels wrong, time to get the boots from valithria i guess...

Dreadski
03-31-2010, 10:49 AM
Expertise is only important if you have actual threat problems, however you do get some from gear by default anyway.

If you're genuinely having threat problems, expertise won't really help you much at all. It will increase already-good threat, but when it's bad to begin with you have other problems besides gear.

PatrikL
04-01-2010, 12:58 AM
Also, other than BQL and Festergut there really aren't threat sensitive fights in ICC, just wow he hits really hard fights. But that's a bit of speculation since I haven't seen all the bosses yet.

Threat isnt really an issue on Fester either. Remember the stacks put on you will increase your damage done significantly and the new tank comming in will inherit a huge threat lead over the dps when he taunts. The only one ever close to the tank on threat should be the tank who was just taunted off of and beeing a tank he should be able to control the situation.

And yes this isnt the proper place for it but has anyone noticed since the patch how us DKs by using IT a bit more can leave all the other tanks in a cloud of dust when it comes to threat. Last night I looked at recount during the Marrowgar fight and it put me at 30k TPS for about 5 secs before I dropped back to about 20k. I havent compared it to a pally tank yet since the patch but my warrior collegue had no chance and I even felt the need to apologize a bit since he must have though I was constantly taunting trash off of him.

Brage
04-02-2010, 12:16 PM
The only thing that annoys me atm is seing a dodge on my attacks. i'm using pillars + t10 chest and have had bad luck on Valithria and her boots so i'm on 7 expertise pre-foodbuff and tbh it hasn't been a problem at all. Haste gibbing is practically none-existant now and we - warriors - are dishing out so much threat that a few avoided attacks makes little to no difference. I haven't even specced vigilance for the past 2 months and everyone in the raid are happy with my threat, its abit rediculous.

Snitsky
04-07-2010, 11:43 AM
I've only got 10 rocking 4 piece t 10 and pillars of might. In fact, none of my gear has expertise at all...I've only got a few guardian's gems in for socket bonuses and the six from spec.

TPS is not really an issue, and really the only time I would value more expertise (given tps being a non-issue and parry haste being disabled) is early on in the pull because an initial dodge/parry (or even miss, based off hit) can lead to an insta pull off of you. Still, to totally eliminate this chance you'd need to be hit capped and expertise capped for parry, which certainly isn't practical.

Additonally, with the exception of Heroic LDW all the bosses are susceptible to taunt...I'm in the habit of throwing a taunt on the boss as I charge in Shield Slam. It's off GCD, and while it may also miss it gives me an additional buffer period as it'll give me a second gcd with which to hit a big move if my initial SS doesn't land.

I'm actually considering ditching the 3 or 4 guardian's dreadstones I have and going back to the agi/stam I was rocking in t9, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing that.

Dreadski
04-07-2010, 11:48 AM
I've only got 10 rocking 4 piece t 10 and pillars of might. In fact, none of my gear has expertise at all...I've only got a few guardian's gems in for socket bonuses and the six from spec.

TPS is not really an issue, and really the only time I would value more expertise (given tps being a non-issue and parry haste being disabled) is early on in the pull because an initial dodge/parry (or even miss, based off hit) can lead to an insta pull off of you. Still, to totally eliminate this chance you'd need to be hit capped and expertise capped for parry, which certainly isn't practical.

Additonally, with the exception of Heroic LDW all the bosses are susceptible to taunt...I'm in the habit of throwing a taunt on the boss as I charge in Shield Slam. It's off GCD, and while it may also miss it gives me an additional buffer period as it'll give me a second gcd with which to hit a big move if my initial SS doesn't land.

I'm actually considering ditching the 3 or 4 guardian's dreadstones I have and going back to the agi/stam I was rocking in t9, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing that.

I have taunt macro'd to charge, have since WOTLK came out, works wonders.

Dragaan
04-07-2010, 03:13 PM
Expertise is awesome. Problem is, there's like zero expertise in a BiS setup and it's usually not worth losing other survival stats to really try and push for the softcap. Most tanks don't have problems with threat on bosses because they get MDs/Tricks at the start. Realistically tho, you won't ALWAYS have tricks or an MD. Expertise really shines on fights like dreamwalker or when you're trying to get a quick pickup on raging spirits on lich king. If you're looking up the top tanks on the armory right now tho, you probably won't see much expertise. Heroic lich king hits WAY too hard to really swap gear around to get more expertise. There is only one situation in ICC where softcapping expertise is absolutely vital imo, and that's if you are the offtank for p1 heroic lich king as a bear or warrior. You can't afford for your shockwave or bash to get dodged when the shambler enrages. It's very possible that a dodged shockwave will instantly result in your death from a 80-100k melee hit.

I'm running with 10 expertise now and I really hate it. The only way I can get more is if the damn boots off dreamwalker drop (I have a feeling I won't see them till cataclysm tho...) or if I swap pillars of might for the t10 legs. I'm tankin heroic LK 25 atm, so there's no way I'm swappin the legs just yet.

Dragaan
04-07-2010, 03:16 PM
I have taunt macro'd to charge, have since WOTLK came out, works wonders.

o.O

That means you need 2 charges on your bar. 1 with taunt and 1 w/o? I'd be afraid I'd hit the wrong one while offtanking on a fight like lich king, lol.

Dreadski
04-07-2010, 06:48 PM
o.O

That means you need 2 charges on your bar. 1 with taunt and 1 w/o? I'd be afraid I'd hit the wrong one while offtanking on a fight like lich king, lol.

Enter the Naga. I have 17 buttons on my mouse. There's a macro for charge/intercept/taunt. One for all aspects of warbringer in one. One for arms pvp charge in battle/intercept in zerker.... Vene made a long blog post of all the many possibilities that warbringer had to offer in a macro :) No worries mate.


EDIT: Also to the point about dreamwalker adds, never any issues picking them up, it all boiled down to clever usage of abilities, throws, charges/intercepts and taunts.

Naka
04-08-2010, 08:02 AM
Shockwave can't be dodged or parried.

Dreadski
04-08-2010, 09:53 AM
Shockwave can't be dodged or parried.

It's true.

Rennadrel
04-08-2010, 02:06 PM
Expertise is awesome. Problem is, there's like zero expertise in a BiS setup and it's usually not worth losing other survival stats to really try and push for the softcap.

The same for plate DPS and it's not such a big issue pushing for softcap in favor of damage output. My character has 2 pieces of gear with expertise and it is only enough to get me 16 expertise (T10.5 legs and badge cloak). I mean, I miss maybe once or twice in a boss fight in 25 man, so it's not a huge deal when your overall DPS and damage is above what is required to down bosses with short enrage timers. I have been of the opinion for a long time that there is too much damn hit rating based gear and not enough expertise based gear. Unless you are in a guild capable of downing heroic Lich King, there is no way in hell you are going to get near expertise capped if you are a class that uses a two handed weapon (DK tank or plate DPS) and it certainly isn't worth capping unless you know you can survive big monster hits.

Blizz needs to take hit rating off gear and give us more expertise. I am so damn far over hit cap as DPS main spec and far over it in tanking gear it is ridiculous.

gacktt
04-08-2010, 02:08 PM
I have 22 expertise(probably 30 if put 10 drops his H sword and I get my grinning H boots) because that's what my gear has atm I don't go out of my way to get any more. parry gibs only matter on sindra 25-h, that thing hits like 35k+ along with instant cleave.

Snitsky
04-09-2010, 07:04 AM
The same for plate DPS and it's not such a big issue pushing for softcap in favor of damage output. My character has 2 pieces of gear with expertise and it is only enough to get me 16 expertise (T10.5 legs and badge cloak). I mean, I miss maybe once or twice in a boss fight in 25 man, so it's not a huge deal when your overall DPS and damage is above what is required to down bosses with short enrage timers. I have been of the opinion for a long time that there is too much damn hit rating based gear and not enough expertise based gear. Unless you are in a guild capable of downing heroic Lich King, there is no way in hell you are going to get near expertise capped if you are a class that uses a two handed weapon (DK tank or plate DPS) and it certainly isn't worth capping unless you know you can survive big monster hits.

Blizz needs to take hit rating off gear and give us more expertise. I am so damn far over hit cap as DPS main spec and far over it in tanking gear it is ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but my fury set is basically perfectly balanced at just one expertise over dodge cap, like 30 hit rating over main hand cap (with precision) and is still itemized well enough to put me at 90 percent ArP (with gems) without DBW.

Aggathon
04-09-2010, 07:28 AM
Didn't we JUST have another thread about this?

Bodasafa
04-09-2010, 07:33 AM
Didn't we JUST have another thread about this?

Why yes we did. Apparently this topic is another one that qualifies for a strobe light sticky. Since I lack a strobe light........


Look its not that hit and expertise do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. Most tanks including myself tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in ICC with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1.

/thread

Snitsky
04-09-2010, 07:37 AM
I have 22 expertise(probably 30 if put 10 drops his H sword and I get my grinning H boots) because that's what my gear has atm I don't go out of my way to get any more. parry gibs only matter on sindra 25-h, that thing hits like 35k+ along with instant cleave.

I'm 99 percent certain she doesn't parry haste. All hard hitting bosses since the end of TBC have had that turned off, and though I've seen people say she does, reviewing our logs from HM last night I can't find any evidence of parry hastes. She does cleave, sometimes within 10ths of a second of a melee swing, but her melee swings seem to be 2 seconds apart throughout all of our attempts.

Dreadski
04-09-2010, 07:44 AM
Didn't we JUST have another thread about this?

Actually 3 different threads in 3 different subforums that all started about the same time.

Dreadski
04-09-2010, 07:45 AM
I'm 99 percent certain she doesn't parry haste. All hard hitting bosses since the end of TBC have had that turned off, and though I've seen people say she does, reviewing our logs from HM last night I can't find any evidence of parry hastes. She does cleave, sometimes within 10ths of a second of a melee swing, but her melee swings seem to be 2 seconds apart throughout all of our attempts.

Also, the bosses in ICC hit faster than they did in any other instance just as a principle.

Rennadrel
04-09-2010, 09:27 AM
I don't know about you, but my fury set is basically perfectly balanced at just one expertise over dodge cap, like 30 hit rating over main hand cap (with precision) and is still itemized well enough to put me at 90 percent ArP (with gems) without DBW.

If the Retribution tree had a talent similar to the Deflection talent in the Protection tree for paladin's where you get some expertise for putting point in it then all would be well and I wouldn't have to worry about not being near cap. I believe Death Knights and Feral Druids have a talent similar to that it too if I recall correctly which gives them expertise, not a lot but it's something. I don't understand why DPS trees don't have them as well. You also have to take into account that with Fury you are using two weapons that are two handed, odds are one could have expertise while the other one doesn't. And really there aren't many items that are worth getting as a regular ICC raider to hit the soft cap without nerfing some damage output.

Dreadski
04-09-2010, 09:41 AM
nvm

Muffin Man
04-09-2010, 03:03 PM
Actually 3 different threads in 3 different subforums that all started about the same time.

We've also managed two get 2 of them closed!

Unger
04-09-2010, 03:46 PM
Expertise is awesome. Problem is, there's like zero expertise in a BiS setup and it's usually not worth losing other survival stats to really try and push for the softcap. Most tanks don't have problems with threat on bosses because they get MDs/Tricks at the start. Realistically tho, you won't ALWAYS have tricks or an MD. Expertise really shines on fights like dreamwalker or when you're trying to get a quick pickup on raging spirits on lich king. If you're looking up the top tanks on the armory right now tho, you probably won't see much expertise. Heroic lich king hits WAY too hard to really swap gear around to get more expertise. There is only one situation in ICC where softcapping expertise is absolutely vital imo, and that's if you are the offtank for p1 heroic lich king as a bear or warrior. You can't afford for your shockwave or bash to get dodged when the shambler enrages. It's very possible that a dodged shockwave will instantly result in your death from a 80-100k melee hit.

I'm running with 10 expertise now and I really hate it. The only way I can get more is if the damn boots off dreamwalker drop (I have a feeling I won't see them till cataclysm tho...) or if I swap pillars of might for the t10 legs. I'm tankin heroic LK 25 atm, so there's no way I'm swappin the legs just yet.

^ Unger agrees with this! That is all! :)

Aggathon
04-09-2010, 03:53 PM
Actually since shockwave is a ranged AoE attack, it can't be dodged, blocked or parried. Just sayin'.

Edit: oops someone said that already.

Unger
04-09-2010, 04:24 PM
It cant be "dodged" in the WOW sense.... the mob could, however, move out of the cone of shockwave and effectively be missed....

I believe the stun portion of a shockwave can be resisted, however, which would explain why it looks like it was dodged. Again, not saying that expertise is the end all, be all. There is a time and place for it. Mostly on fights with adds where snap threat and gaining threat on multiple mobs at the same time is important.

Naka
04-10-2010, 04:31 AM
Actually since shockwave is a ranged AoE attack, it can't be dodged, blocked or parried. Just sayin'.

Edit: oops someone said that already.

It can be blocked, like most (all?) physical ranged attacks can.

Dreadski
04-10-2010, 06:46 AM
It can be blocked, like most (all?) physical ranged attacks can.

Correct, the damage portion can be blocked but the stun will still get through.

Aggathon
04-10-2010, 09:18 PM
Correct, the damage portion can be blocked but the stun will still get through.

Which ICC bosses block? Edit: this is an actual legitimate question, I honestly never looked into bosses in ICC25 blocking, because to my knowledge none of the bosses or adds in ICC25 boss encounters can block. Edit2: If they can and they don't use shields then I hold that on the same level as snakes being able to kick in EverQuest. Edit3: Also not denying that shockwave can't be blocked, I just didn't know, now I do, huzzah!

Naka
04-11-2010, 02:22 AM
I've seen blocks on all bosses in ICC in my logs. example (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/luftzlcsx7w6xhxs/details/3/?s=5844&e=6033)

Granted, the number is small enough to not even worry about, but they do happen.

Dreadski
04-11-2010, 05:18 AM
Which ICC bosses block? Edit: this is an actual legitimate question, I honestly never looked into bosses in ICC25 blocking, because to my knowledge none of the bosses or adds in ICC25 boss encounters can block. Edit2: If they can and they don't use shields then I hold that on the same level as snakes being able to kick in EverQuest. Edit3: Also not denying that shockwave can't be blocked, I just didn't know, now I do, huzzah!

I kind of took it out of context. What I meant to say is the ability can be blocked in general. Also you can't stun ICC bosses, further invalidating my statement. Good morning!

Mačl
04-12-2010, 03:24 AM
I'm currently sitting at 14 exp. Having taken a glimpse on my planned upgrade path(based on availability; I only tank 25man if we are lacking a tank; there are very few intersting upgrades in 10 man for me) I realized that I will propably lose some of that.
I have two agi/stam gems in my gear and I wondered if I should replace them with exp/stam.

So I went to a boss dummy and devastated it for some time. I had a sequence of appies that really scared me. If I should ever have to tank a scary parry hasted mob, I will shift things around a little bit. If there is no parry haste I'm only in trouble threatwise if I screwed up.

To me reaching the hit minimum is much more important since I have to keep debuffs up myself. I'd hate missed demo shouts/tclaps.

Muffin Man
04-12-2010, 01:52 PM
It cant be "dodged" in the WOW sense.... the mob could, however, move out of the cone of shockwave and effectively be missed....

I believe the stun portion of a shockwave can be resisted, however, which would explain why it looks like it was dodged. Again, not saying that expertise is the end all, be all. There is a time and place for it. Mostly on fights with adds where snap threat and gaining threat on multiple mobs at the same time is important.

Is it my imagination or did they fix the old range issues on SW? Where if you were on a boss with a big hitbox shockwave somehow wouldn't reach him even though you were in melee range? I feel like they did, but I'm not sure.

Also, the old Revenge was maddening since you'd see a bunch of "Immune"s pop up while tanking and if you weren't paying attn you'd think something horrible was wrong.

Last, every npc in the game can block amazingly... even the ones without shields of any sort! But as said it's pretty rare and I don't think any mob has a high block value anyways.

Superworm
04-12-2010, 11:53 PM
In my experience, for snap aggro, hit is much more important. Many tank abilities count as ranged attacks and expertise has no benefits here, like warrior TC & SW, paladin AS & Judgement, druid FF, deathknight IT. I've absolutely no issue on snap aggro once I got hit capped and hit capping also eliminates the need to use a taunt glyph on bosses like DBS. That's why I'm using the Blacksmith boots instead of the Dreamwalker boots.

Aggathon
04-13-2010, 08:44 PM
Except ranged abilities only have an 8% chance to miss where as melee abilities have a total of something like 28.5% chance to miss (dodge+parry+miss). Getting to 26 expertise cuts that number down to 15.5%. Also, imo shield slam is the best snap threat mechanics for single target, yes shockwave is good and probably more threat, but the utility of it is far too important to be the go to move for snap threat, and a lot of times you don't want to stun the target. That and TC isnt snap threat at all. If you're wanting to pile up single target DPS Shockwave is 1 of 6 abilities you may try to use (hs, devastate, shield slam, revenge, and conq blow + SW).

Expertise up to 26 gives better returns than hit, imo.

situation
04-26-2010, 07:37 PM
Look its not that hit and expertise do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. Most tanks including myself tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in ICC with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1.

/thread

This. (Although I'm not sure why you threw in that weird 'I firmly believe...' post on page 1...). It's good for people to understand that those four items on the threat list do not scale linearly with respect to each other. There is a significant gap between (3) and (4) on that list in terms of threat generation, and you should talk to your raid and make sure you're getting threat externals.

There's no reason to gear for expertise. Ever.