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Raenis
03-28-2010, 01:16 PM
I've been Death Knight tanking since TOC's release, and I love the class all around, especially the Blood spec but lately I've had some major aggravation with it.

I can't seem to wrap my head around how Blood Death Knights are supposed to push high multitarget threat. We don't have high DnD / Disease damage and an AE proc like Unholy, or a bursty AE spell like Howling Blast for Frost, yes, we do have 30% stronger Blood Boil and a small cleave on Heart Strike, but it doesn't seem to be enough.

We have something for AE but it doesn't dish out enough to hold anything without the help of tab targeting, which running off of runes we can't spam cleaves everywhere like the old-style Druid swipe from BC. I drop DnD, disease up one target and pestilence leaving me with no runes and very little threat to open the fight. Over time I refresh Diseases / DnD, tab target Death Strikes, and use the death runes / blood runes left over for Blood Boil. Doing this I have nothing, so I resort to strictly single target and pick up what I can.

Is there some specific way to work the spells that I'm missing completely? If you know of some good stratagies try to fill me in.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&cn=Raenis Here's my armory, pretty sure there's nothing wrong wth my gear... Even have the T10 2p for 20% DnD damage.

KnThrak
03-28-2010, 04:48 PM
If you don't have to pull such a group more than once per minute, after you pestilenced do Blood Tap -> Blood Boil. If it's in a bossfight, use ERW (always use ERW for starting threat on a boss!). That should alleviate the worst issues.

TheYanger
03-29-2010, 02:22 AM
DND, Disease, Pest, Blood boil, blood tap, blood boil, death strike, DND, spam blood boil, etc. KEep using DND on cooldown and spreading diseases with pestilence before they wear out, easy as pie. 2T10 helps but isn't wholly necessary either.

Satorri
03-29-2010, 05:53 AM
Blood DKs are probably the weakest AoE tanks of the available class specs, but you can still do it just fine. The only place I have lost threat is on some of the huge packs in ICC against my kitteh who pops all his cooldowns and Kittyswipes hard enough to break the game, but then, none of our tanks have been able to hold threat on him every time.

DnD, spread diseases, Blood Tap and BB. DS on FU pairs, BB if you need to get more threat on everything, HS if you need to keep up on one or two targets that get focused. Also, don't underestimate the value of your auto-attacks/RS. With all the targets you will proc RS on a very high amount of your melee swings, so swapping targets through the group you're tanking will help a lot.

Raenis
03-29-2010, 01:21 PM
Thanks guys, and yeah Satorri I have noticed that Rune Strike is pretty sick on any sort of multi-target (especially combined with all of the haste buffs from a raid) unless it is composed of mainly casters. I've also been considering replacing one of my glyphs for a Glyph of Death and Decay.

Leucifer
03-29-2010, 04:53 PM
Blood Tanks are just not the best at AoE threat. Some things I've learned:

- Death and Decay Glyph.... is great. DnD is one of your highest threat abilities. Adding the Glyph drives up the threat generated by this. Nowadays, when I use it, so long as I get one or two ticks in, stuff is glued to me. Especially once I get diseases flying around.

- Blood Boil works without diseases. I know. Basic. Here's an example though. Halls of Reflection (HoR)... the final stretch. All of those critters are moving fast enough where DnD will not necessarily tick and catch them. I deal with it with BB. As the zombies launch themselves, I usually drop DND just a little back to cover my group. Then.... as they charge in... pop BB, which gets snap agg.... then drag them into DND to seal it. SO LONG AS DPS ISN'T GOING CRAZY.... it sucks them all in.... and then dps can AoE their heart out while I prep for the next wave running in.

-Another trick I use in HoR.... I tank with my back to Arthas. once I get the first wave of witch docs and constructs, I turn and point them away from the group. This serves a few purposes
1) I won't accidentally tab-strike Arthas
2) Keeps mob AoE away from group
3) Anything that my group aggs and comes loose... comes loose in FRONT of me at all times. Meaning I don't have to turn or do anything to try and use Dark Command or Deathgrip or Icy Touch to snag them back.
4) Allows me to see if anyone from my group IS doing something less-than-brilliant, like targeting a mob that I don't have solid agg on. Just better to see where they are positioned and if anyone is in trouble.
5) as mobs come racing in.... they run past me INTO view and not OUT of view. Plus the mob wastes its time pointlessly running past and then back to me as I snap agg on it.
...... The main point being, I'm keeping EVERYTHING that is ACTIVELY A THREAT, including my own people, in view. Situational awareness. And trust me... you'll notice if Arthas gets close. Everyone starts edging away. lol

- Give your group direction. You KNOW your weaknesses. They don't. I tell them if I am going to run into issues. As the tank, don't be afraid to lead and give direction. Example: Again, HoR, I tell them.... "Range dps. Keep fairly close together and as far back as you can. Melee... do not get closer to Arthas than me. Target Witch Docs first." If I know they're going after the witch docs, I know I can IT the constructs and hold them. Then it's just a matter of popping back on the witch docs and keeping them focused. If zombies come jumping in, BB is enough to drag them back onto me.

- BIG weakness for a blood tank is that "dead period" right after we drop DND, then lay down diseases and spread them. ALL runes are at cooldown at this point. Recognize that as a weakness and don't be afraid to tell your group "hold off on dps until I have agg". My guild recognizes it when I have it. Don't hesitate to create a macro that you can pop that says "DPS GO!".

- Blood tanks to me, we start with "Meh" threat and once we get rolling can really pour it on. Tab-strike heart strike, not death strike. Use death strike to snag the death runes, and get a rotation going with that.

My opening is usually this:

DND > IT > PS > PEST > BB ..... wait.... DS > PEST (refresh diseases) > HS > TAB > DS > TAB > HS > TAB >...... etc. Throwing in PEST to keep diseases rolling. IF I can get all the mobs in a nice pack in front of me.... it's over.

KEY POINTS:

- Keep diseases up - Lame. I know.... but once you get these rolling, it makes EVERYTHING you do so much more effective.

- DND - Realize strength and weaknesses.... slow ticks.... great agg once it hits.

- Tab-Strike with Heart Strike - Best cleave effect in the game cause you can "spam" it. Just learn a pace and let it roll

- DIRECTION - Don't hesitate to give direction to group. Yes... it costs you a few moments. Wiping costs a lot more.

KnThrak
03-30-2010, 01:45 AM
- Death and Decay Glyph.... is great. DnD is one of your highest threat abilities. Adding the Glyph drives up the threat generated by this. Nowadays, when I use it, so long as I get one or two ticks in, stuff is glued to me. Especially once I get diseases flying around.

My Unholy spec 2t10 + Glyph DnD laughs at your puny Blood DnD. ;)

And yes, glyph is extremely strong. Sadly it's AE only so either carry swap-gylphs (as Blood has plenty strong single glyphs already!), or... actually nm. I wanted to say use GoIT since it affects b oth AE and single, but for Blood this is minor compared to Frost. Just use swapglyphs, glyphs are cheap. I carry stacks of Icy Touch and DnD glyphs on my Unholy DK, because while usually IT works fine on the longer trash experiences like Blood Wing (don't need to swap back for the Edwards) or the entire Frost Wing until Sindragosa, DnD glyph is amazing.

Leucifer
03-30-2010, 09:39 AM
My Unholy spec 2t10 + Glyph DnD laughs at your puny Blood DnD. ;)

And yes, glyph is extremely strong. Sadly it's AE only so either carry swap-gylphs (as Blood has plenty strong single glyphs already!), or... actually nm. I wanted to say use GoIT since it affects b oth AE and single, but for Blood this is minor compared to Frost. Just use swapglyphs, glyphs are cheap. I carry stacks of Icy Touch and DnD glyphs on my Unholy DK, because while usually IT works fine on the longer trash experiences like Blood Wing (don't need to swap back for the Edwards) or the entire Frost Wing until Sindragosa, DnD glyph is amazing.

Oh I bet! lol I'm wanting that t10 set! Glyph plus 2 parts of t10 really bumps up DnD's effectiveness!
That and the 4 piece set turns blood tap into another mitigation tool. /lust

The Icy Touch Glyph is a good suggestion. I might switch that out and give it a run, see how it changes things.

I'll be honest, I've been running blood spec, but am kinda "itching" to try unholy spec again. Or frost.
Honestly, I love the fact that all 3 trees can tank. :)

Satorri
03-31-2010, 05:54 AM
Honestly, I love the fact that all 3 trees can tank. :)
One of the coolest things about DKs.

Only tank class that has multiple trees, multiple ways to use the same or slightly varying tools in completely different ways. Same framework, variable filler. Makes it a very deep world to live in. =)

Raenis
04-01-2010, 12:57 PM
Yeah, I like Unholy tanking. I think the whole idea of doing massive spell damage with diseases / DnD and still being able to crank out single target threat is more enjoyable than psychotic faceroll single target like Blood, but it's difficult to Unholy tank nowadays with so little mitigation in the tree besides spell damage.

Satorri
04-02-2010, 05:20 AM
It's funny, all the way back to the beginning people used to say, "Unholy is great AoE but it is weak on single targets."

I rarely tried to question them, but I used to laugh about it because before they change UB I used to do adequate single target tps on every part of a group pull by stacking my effects. It was the only thing that could keep threat off the Bladestorm monster Arms Warrior who would drop in and do 2-3k dps on multiple targets at once. I didn't understand how you could take that kind of solid non-target-specific threat and then not be able to do good single target threat when you added melee and RS (which in Naxx, pre-nerf, was tons of fun critting for over 10k).

And even in ToC (haven't given it a serious shake in ICC) it was the only spec where my healers couldn't tell the difference in *apparent* damage taken between that and my Blood spec. They could tell when I was Frost because it looked like I was taking more damage.