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View Full Version : Warrior Revenge bypassing Shield slam on priority?

Mercarcher
03-23-2010, 06:12 PM
These are preliminary numbers jotted down from 1 boss fight (Marrowgar 25)

Average revenge damage including crits = 5345
Average Shieldslam damage including crits = 3738

Threat from shield slam = ( 3738 + t ) * 1.3 = >4859
Threat from Revenge = 5345

I'm not sure on what the static value is for shield slam if anyone knows that would be a great help.

6k AP, 1513 block, no blocking glyph.

Linedan
03-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Revenge may hit harder and generate more threat even with the modifier on SS, but does SS pull ahead on longer fights because of S&B procs making it come up more often than every 6 seconds?

Aggathon
03-23-2010, 08:34 PM

Shield Slam ________________________ damage + 770 (verified build 9138)

In patch 3.3.2 shield slam got a threat boost of 30%, so multiply your final threat figure by 30%.

As far as I know people are reporting that revenge has not passed shield slam in threat, but if that HAS changed and someone can show some numbers I think it is within the realm of possibility.

Edit: Rough napkin math, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Shield slam = (3738 + 770) * 1.3 = 5860.4 average threat

Revenge = Dmg + 121 = 5345 + 121 = 5466

Therefore shield slam would still be more threat based on that. I could be wrong, and maybe the threat modifier on shield slam was to the innate threat, but I'm pretty sure it was overall. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Raysere
03-24-2010, 01:21 AM
I updated the Threat spreadsheet by Wartotem to reflect the new changes. It's not my sheet so I'm not intimately familiar with its workings, but I'm fairly confident my modifications are accurate. Nevertheless take this with a pinch of salt till a real expert confirms it:

(Stats used are those of my Warrior (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sporeggar&cn=Hayle) - don't shoot me if things are different at different gear levels)

Shield Slam:
Avg DMG: 3925.2
Avg Threat: 12521.2

Revenge:
Avg DMG: 5587.53
Avg Threat: 11820.32

Devastate:
Avg DMG: 3304.5
Avg Threat: 9213.25

Conclusion: Shield Slam still takes priority over Revenge for maximizing TPS. Revenge now deals significantly more damage per execution now, but further analysis (not done by myself) will have to be done to establish whether delaying Shield Slam and potentially wasting SnB procs will yield better DPS than prioritizing SnB over Revenge. I suspect the latter to be the case, but that is nothing more then speculation at this point. I don't even know where I'd start to go about proving it.

DnQuxiti
03-24-2010, 06:50 AM
I just posted this over in the revenge thread in the general forums, but I will post it here, since it applies for Theory Crafting

Here is some Data from ICC 25 last night:

All Boss Encounters:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s.../9/?enc=bosses (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s6je0glylv4cmu6d/details/9/?enc=bosses)

Average Damage per connect (Excluding dodge/parry/miss)
Revenge - 6065
Shockwave - 5365
Shield Slam - 4588
Devastate - 3180

Festergut only: (I know there are no adds here, and I wanted to make sure revenge numbers were without cleaves)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s6je0glylv4cmu6d/details/9/?s=4840&e=5092

Average Damage per connect (Excluding dodge/parry/miss)
Shockwave - 9893
Revenge - 7468
Shield Slam - 7076
Devastate - 5152

Now, during all of these fights, I was prioritizing Revenge above Shield Slam UNLESS Shield block was active. On Festergut, I was tank #1, and even with ~2 minutes with 8 stacks of the damage buff, a macro to swap in a higher BV shield and an ArP weapon, and battle stance, Shield Slam still didn't pull ahead of revenge. Damage wise, I think it is safe to say that Revenge is just ludicrous, I will leave it to someone else to calculate how close it is on threat with SS and Devastate.

Looking at the overall, and assuming SS damage +770 *1.3 is correct for SS threat, then it looks like SS is still ahead of revenge for threat. That said, there is a really big difference in damage, so unless I am in a fight where threat is an issue, I think I will be prioritizing S&B>Revenge>SS>Shockwave>Devastate.

Raysere
03-24-2010, 07:51 AM
Well, my thought process is that any time you Revenge while SS is not on cooldown you are effectivly increasing your average time between SS by wasting potential SnB procs. SS has a 6s CD, revenge 5s, but SnB effectively reduces SS's CD to what I'd estimate to be an average of around 3s. While Rev does more damage per use, SS is used more often, using your Festergut numbers, more frequent Shield slams generate more DPS than Rev on CD. That leads me to believe that ensuring your Shield Slams come as frequently as possible would generate the highest DPS. I just kinda need a way to prove it.

I know that's not really a very clear explanation, I can't really come up with a better way to get my idea across right now. Thoughts?

There's about a million threads on this subject at the moment, it would be nice to keep the actual discussion in once place. Not sure which threadto use.

DnQuxiti
03-24-2010, 08:18 AM
The Festergut numbers are bad to use to extrapolate how you would use it generally though. Festergut is the absolute best case for Shield Slam, and the worst case for Revenge, because about half of my Shield Slams have their damage boosted at a time when I cannot even use revenge. If I could use revenge while off tanking, the numbers for it would be higher than shockwave on that fight.

I think what you are basically saying is that it is better to use shield slam first, because that will result in more overall use of S&B, which will result in fewer devastates, which it will. However, for me, the difference between revenge and shield slam is about the same as between shield slam and devastate, and that was while only prioritizing Shield Slam when Shield Block was up. Had I been prioritizing shield slam the whole night, the difference between Revenge and Shield slam would be greater, and the difference between Shield Slam and Devastate would be smaller.

Thinking it through more, I think I was wrong in my first post to prioritize only S&B above revenge for the rage savings. I think you are right about SS still being priority, but I think that is only true when shield block is up. Revenge just hits too much harder the rest of the time.

Raysere
03-24-2010, 08:47 AM
The Festergut numbers are bad to use to extrapolate how you would use it generally though. Festergut is the absolute best case for Shield Slam, and the worst case for Revenge, because about half of my Shield Slams have their damage boosted at a time when I cannot even use revenge. If I could use revenge while off tanking, the numbers for it would be higher than shockwave on that fight.

I think what you are basically saying is that it is better to use shield slam first, because that will result in more overall use of S&B, which will result in fewer devastates, which it will. However, for me, the difference between revenge and shield slam is about the same as between shield slam and devastate, and that was while only prioritizing Shield Slam when Shield Block was up. Had I been prioritizing shield slam the whole night, the difference between Revenge and Shield slam would be greater, and the difference between Shield Slam and Devastate would be smaller.

Thinking it through more, I think I was wrong in my first post to prioritize only S&B above revenge for the rage savings. I think you are right about SS still being priority, but I think that is only true when shield block is up. Revenge just hits too much harder the rest of the time.

Ah crap i didnt think of that. Ok, kinda busy right now bit i'll look at it again later.

Edit: Can anyone think of a good way to determine the average time between shield slams assuming 2 out of the 3 GCDs following a SS will be able to proc SnB and 1 will not? I've been guesstimating 3seconds based pretty much on in game observation and nothing more, but i'd like to be more sure... My plan is simply to find the average DPS loss by delaying SS and Revenge by one GCD. I figure that would give the best idea of which should take priority. Is that even a good way to approach the problem? Am I over thinking this? Does it even matter? Halp :(

Bishoptwo
03-24-2010, 10:22 AM
I did not see this talked about yet, forgive me if it has been and I overlooked it.

Ok this assumes that Revenge>Shield Slam for DPS, which still seems to be up in the air?

Let's assume for a second that Revenge is always lit up and you are waiting on it to come off of CD and can use it every CD. (Yeah I know, just follow my line of thought though.)

1) Revenge
2) Shield Slam
3) Shockwave > Devastate
4) .5 seconds until Revenge comes off of CD. Would it not be better to stall your rotation for less than .5 seconds to wait to Revenge instead of Devastating?

So essentially you have 1) Revenge, 2) Shield Slam (Shockwave > Devastate if SS is on CD), 3) Shockwave > Devastate; repeat.

This does have some practical applications even if Revenge is not light up constantly you could have a 10 or 15 second window where it is. So would stalling your rotation for this net greater dps?

If Revenge does end up being more dps when you prioritize it over Shield Slam (which i stated is still up in the air and I would think the extra 15 percent crit you gain from Shield Slam talented and having revenge proc SnB procs occur after Revenge would be higher dps) then you would essentially ignore SnB proc's if Revenge was lit up, which could potentially be alot of ignored SnB procs.

Anyways like I stated at the start alot of what ifs and it's based on if Revenge > Shield Slam is actually more dps.

Inaara
03-24-2010, 10:40 AM
Revenge is definitely doing more DPS than SS. The only time SS comes close to damage is when Shield block is up. This is of course figuring in Improved Revenge. Without it they're hitting for roughly the same amount which makes SS the clear winner as far as threat is concerned. In a UA build Revenge damage would be insane, I'm going to play around with that tonight.

Khordam
03-24-2010, 10:48 AM
Bishoptwo, if I read this correctly, you are trying to promote a 3-GCD-rotation. It is highly risky to work with that as a base for assumptions, since you are either expecting to take 6 seconds for that (=1.5s stalling), or to have SnB proc in every rotation, which is rather unlikely with only one to two SnB-proccing abilities between shield slams. Or, to put it more clearly: The SS cooldown breaks your proposed rotation or stalls it for an additional second.

03-24-2010, 10:51 AM
I did not see this talked about yet, forgive me if it has been and I overlooked it.

Ok this assumes that Revenge>Shield Slam for DPS, which still seems to be up in the air?

Let's assume for a second that Revenge is always light up and you are waiting on it to come off of CD and can use it every CD. (Yeah I know, just follow my line of thought though.)

1) Revenge
2) Shield Slam
3) Shockwave > Devastate
4) .5 seconds until Revenge comes off of CD. Would it not be better to stall your rotation for less than .5 seconds to wait to Revenge instead of Devastating?

So essentially you have 1) Revenge, 2) Shield Slam, 3) Shockwave > Devastate; repeat.

This does have some practical applications even if Revenge is not light up constantly you could have a 10 or 15 second window where it is. So would stalling your rotation for this net greater dps?

If Revenge does end up being more dps when you prioritize it over Shield Slam (which i stated is still up in the air and I would think the extra 15 percent crit you gain from Shield Slam talented and having revenge proc SnB procs occur after Revenge would be higher dps) then you would essentially ignore SnB proc's if Revenge was light up, which could potentially be alot of ignored SnB procs.

Anyways like I stated at the start alot of what ifs and it's based on if Revenge > Shield Slam is actually more dps.

Hope you have a sunder bot. And if it's a DPS warrior....good luck.

DnQuxiti
03-24-2010, 10:59 AM
Ah crap i didnt think of that. Ok, kinda busy right now bit i'll look at it again later.

Edit: Can anyone think of a good way to determine the average time between shield slams assuming 2 out of the 3 GCDs following a SS will be able to proc SnB and 1 will not? I've been guesstimating 3seconds based pretty much on in game observation and nothing more, but i'd like to be more sure... My plan is simply to find the average DPS loss by delaying SS and Revenge by one GCD. I figure that would give the best idea of which should take priority. Is that even a good way to approach the problem? Am I over thinking this? Does it even matter? Halp :(

It can't be 3 seconds, as 3 seconds is the minimum time to do Shield Slam ->GCD-> ability that can proc SnB ->GCD-> Shield Slam. That said, using 2 abilities that can proc SnB should have about 50% chance of proccing it. The minimum time is 3 seconds, the maximum time is 6 seconds, so I would assume the average time is half the difference between the two, or 4.5 seconds.

Raysere
03-24-2010, 11:07 AM
It can't be 3 seconds, as 3 seconds is the minimum time to do Shield Slam ->GCD-> ability that can proc SnB ->GCD-> Shield Slam. That said, using 2 abilities that can proc SnB should have about 50% chance of proccing it. The minimum time is 3 seconds, the maximum time is 6 seconds, so I would assume the average time is half the difference between the two, or 4.5 seconds.

That was so blindlingly obvious... now you see why I shouldnt try to figure these things out...

Aggathon
03-24-2010, 11:17 AM
For 25 mans it is still my general philosophy that TPS > DPS, even if you're not really having threat issues, the marginal DPS gain is probably pretty small. Leave the DPS to your DPSers and make sure you have such a huge threat lead that they don't even have to look at omen for the entire fight.

In 10 mans this may be different since your marginal percentage of DPS is significantly larger than it is in 25 man and if you are pushing an enrage timer in 10man then tank DPS might actually matter.

MellvarTank
03-24-2010, 11:29 AM
Yeah, I've run with hunters that are right on your butt for threat the entire fight pushing as much DPS as is possible. The reality, your threat will CAP the numbers that they can put up, so if you want to contribute to more DPS, get higher TPS numbers so that hunter can push harder. MD is a wasted GCD as far as DPS is concerned, and so is FD.... Rogues will TotT each other for the DPS boost, so out threat them to ensure there isn't a DPS cap.

It's easier for a hunter (or any DPS class for that matter) to up their DPS above and beyond what you could hope to increase yours by if you change your priority from Damage to Threat.

Inaara
03-24-2010, 11:29 AM
For 25 mans it is still my general philosophy that TPS > DPS, even if you're not really having threat issues, the marginal DPS gain is probably pretty small. Leave the DPS to your DPSers and make sure you have such a huge threat lead that they don't even have to look at omen for the entire fight.

In 10 mans this may be different since your marginal percentage of DPS is significantly larger than it is in 25 man and if you are pushing an enrage timer in 10man then tank DPS might actually matter.

The only fight I can justify max threat for would be LK when using the safeguard strat. Other than that threat is not only not a problem, it isn't even a consideration.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm always going to prioritize SS over Revenge 100% of the time, I just don't think that a 700k threat lead is necessary lol.

Bishoptwo
03-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Bishoptwo, if I read this correctly, you are trying to promote a 3-GCD-rotation. It is highly risky to work with that as a base for assumptions, since you are either expecting to take 6 seconds for that (=1.5s stalling), or to have SnB proc in every rotation, which is rather unlikely with only one to two SnB-proccing abilities between shield slams. Or, to put it more clearly: The SS cooldown breaks your proposed rotation or stalls it for an additional second.

Edited my original post for clarity. What I was trying to express is Revenge is on a 5 second CD which doesn't line up perfectly with GCD's but I guess nothing lines up perfectly if you play with anything that's worse than amazing latency. So if Revenge > SS, 3 GCD's after your Revenge you are .5 seconds or less from Revenge being off of CD. If it's lit up is it better to stall your rotation and wait to hit it? Revenge is obviously not always going to be lit up when it's coming off of CD, especially in ICC, so this is just me being bored at work and thinking about the changes to Revenge have brought about to our Priority System and Rotation.

DnQuxiti
03-24-2010, 12:21 PM
While I understand the Philosophy of aiming for TPS over DPS, I think that even with the buff to revenge, we all pretty much agree that SS>Rev>=Dev for threat, so there really isn't that much of a question about that, and if I need to focus on threat, its pretty easy to switch up my priorities for that. I think it is less clear what the best strategy for maximizing DPS is; the interplay between the cooldowns of Shield slam and revenge, along with sword and board procs is interesting; and I would like to know what the best way to go is. I will say I am very glad there is a bit more to our ability list again though.

Prunetracy
03-24-2010, 12:32 PM
As an aside, when I was running heroics last night, several times I noticed Revenge Double Proccing Sword and Board. I wonder if each hit has an individual chance to proc it, increasing SnB uptime significantly.

Eisen
03-24-2010, 12:42 PM
As an aside, when I was running heroics last night, several times I noticed Revenge Double Proccing Sword and Board. I wonder if each hit has an individual chance to proc it, increasing SnB uptime significantly.

Good lord if that were true....That's sick. Really sick.

Tonight's a raid night so I'll have a chance to really test it myself.

Muffin Man
03-24-2010, 12:43 PM
Well, my thought process is that any time you Revenge while SS is not on cooldown you are effectivly increasing your average time between SS by wasting potential SnB procs. SS has a 6s CD, revenge 5s, but SnB effectively reduces SS's CD to what I'd estimate to be an average of around 3s. While Rev does more damage per use, SS is used more often, using your Festergut numbers, more frequent Shield slams generate more DPS than Rev on CD. That leads me to believe that ensuring your Shield Slams come as frequently as possible would generate the highest DPS. I just kinda need a way to prove it.

Not proof here... but comparing to the accepted Arms rotation might be helpful.

Revenge is like MS (they both even have a 5 sec cd!). And SS is like Execute (in that other abiliites can proc it).

For arms warriors, it's better to MS -> Execute even wasting the chance that Execute can proc itself (which SS can't do). This was true even when Execute did more damage than MS (MS scales better, and I think ICC gear puts MS ahead of Execute now damage wise).

But then again Execute isn't available to use as often as SS so it's not a perfect example (neither as a proc nor as a regular ability).

Darmaul
03-24-2010, 12:46 PM
For 25 mans it is still my general philosophy that TPS > DPS, even if you're not really having threat issues, the marginal DPS gain is probably pretty small..

I actually was looking at this and my conclusion was exactly the opposite. Specifically that the marginal TPS gain is probably pretty small. Where's your breakpoint? If they made Shield slam do 100 damage and 10,000 threat would you still pick it over Revenge doing 9800 dmg and 9950 threat?

Keep in mind that Revenge scales on Attack Power and Shield Slam scales on Shield Block value with a cap on block value. Based on current itemization (i.e. huge dearth of block value in T10 gear), Revenge is going to continually increase in damage and threat as you get better gear and Shield Slam may remain relatively static as the block value from extra strength is offset by lack of block value on gear or as you approach the block value cap.

The difference in threat (using above calculations) appears to be about 700. The difference in damage is 1662. So twice as much damage done as you'd gain in threat. To me, that *is* an interesting choice... if your dps are threat limited by a very small amount (very very small).

I'll be prioritizing Shield slam as my first "opener" ability and whenever Shield Block is up, but Revenge will get priority all other times.

I'll also note that when comparing damage of Shield Slam and Revenge using "theorycrafting" you need to take into account that Shield Slam will have 15% higher crit rate due to Critical Block talent.

DnQuxiti
03-24-2010, 01:07 PM
I'll be prioritizing Shield slam as my first "opener" ability and whenever Shield Block is up, but Revenge will get priority all other times.

Here is where I am kind of stuck. I originally thought this would make the most sense when going for DPS, but I am not 100% sure that missing SnB procs is a good idea. Not only from the difference between SS and Devastate, but also from the fact that More use of SnB means I can get closer to my ideal 100% HS uptime.

Inaara
03-24-2010, 01:17 PM
I was just looking over my parses for last night and it appears that Revenge was severly out performing SS.

Revenge average: 5286.8 = 5407.8 threat
Shield Slam average: 2942.5 = 4826.25 threat

Revenge crit average: 10647 = 10768 threat
Shield Slam crit average 6662.8 = 9662.64 threat

Linedan
03-24-2010, 01:33 PM
As an aside, when I was running heroics last night, several times I noticed Revenge Double Proccing Sword and Board. I wonder if each hit has an individual chance to proc it, increasing SnB uptime significantly.

I was seeing double SnB proc messages last night as well while tanking multiple mobs, but I thought it was a potential problem with Mik's Scrolling Battle Text. I'll see if I see any single SnB messages in addition to double messages tonight.

Raysere
03-24-2010, 01:47 PM
I was just looking over my parses for last night and it appears that Revenge was severly out performing SS.

Revenge average: 5286.8 = 5407.8 threat
Shield Slam average: 2942.5 = 4826.25 threat

Revenge crit average: 10647 = 10768 threat
Shield Slam crit average 6662.8 = 9662.64 threat

SS should crit almost twice as often though, which should even out the averages a little. The spreadsheet numbers I posted this morning are looking fairly accurate after all. Revenge is clearly ahead on damage and very close on threat. It seems a little too good a buff if you ask me...

Inaara
03-24-2010, 02:05 PM
SS should crit almost twice as often though, which should even out the averages a little. The spreadsheet numbers I posted this morning are looking fairly accurate after all. Revenge is clearly ahead on damage and very close on threat. It seems a little too good a buff if you ask me...

Agreed, pretty OP. Can't wait to see my DPS in heroics with UA build lol. Gonna make some deeps cry tonight!

Darmaul
03-24-2010, 02:06 PM
Here is where I am kind of stuck. I originally thought this would make the most sense when going for DPS, but I am not 100% sure that missing SnB procs is a good idea. Not only from the difference between SS and Devastate, but also from the fact that More use of SnB means I can get closer to my ideal 100% HS uptime.

I'm missing something here. What does more use of SnB have to do with 100% HS uptime? Are you saying the limiting factor on keeping HS up 100% is the rage you have to spend on non-SnB Shield Slams?

Because for me, I've found the limiting factor on keeping HS up 100% is activating the ability ever 1.7 seconds.

Since Revenge itself is a *very* low rage cost ability, I find it hard to believe that using it would reduce your rage significantly. And if 100% HS uptime is really your top priority, consider getting Glyph of Revenge and macro HS to your Revenge ability.

Raysere
03-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Agreed, pretty OP. Can't wait to see my DPS in heroics with UA build lol. Gonna make some deeps cry tonight!

I tried UA earlier but losing warbringer in Heroics is just ugh. Then again, i tried it for half a VH, and trying to get a charge off before you enter combat one some of the portals just doesnt work. I tanked XT for weekly as UA, but since I basically did nothing for 60% of the time due to heart phase chaining I didn't really get any useful data on damage output. My threat was pretty nuts though, guessing I had a 3 or 4x threat lead on the DPS after the first 30 seconds or so. Itching to go beat up some tank and spank boss so I can see what it can really do.

Inaara
03-24-2010, 02:20 PM
Dare I try it on festergut next week? lol..... maybe just patchwork.

DnQuxiti
03-24-2010, 02:22 PM
Non SnB shield slams, as well as extra devastates, clearly not revenge. While 1 hit puts you at full rage, many of the bosses in ICC like to stop and do other things before they turn their attention back to beating on you. How I handle my ability use going into those can help cover the gap. Even aside from rage though, my main point was determining whether or not the actual damage is better doing it one way or the other. The Heroic strike thing was more of an aside.

Bodasafa
03-24-2010, 02:53 PM
Before all this patch I had basically only used revenge in a limited rage situation.

I macro'd Dev+ HS and spammed it until SS was off CD from S&B or on its own.

Now I have come full circle back to what I was doing. I will macro Rev + HS. Spam Dev and that macro to work S&B procs and mix in SS on its own CD.

03-24-2010, 03:20 PM
Before all this patch I had basically only used revenge in a limited rage situation.

I macro'd Dev+ HS and spammed it until SS was off CD from S&B or on its own.

Now I have come full circle back to what I was doing. I will macro Rev + HS. Spam Dev and that macro to work S&B procs and mix in SS on its own CD.

I would run out of rage in seconds. Do you have separate binds as well for when you have avoidance streams?

Bodasafa
03-24-2010, 03:28 PM
I would run out of rage in seconds. Do you have separate binds as well for when you have avoidance streams?

The first one I hardly ever got rage starved with the Dev+ HS, even in heroics. Of course I had 3/3 Puncture, 3/3 Imp HS, and 3/3 Focused Rage.

The second one you have to be a bit more careful with since you won't have a spec like that to support it with needing 2/2 Imp Revenge. I'm probably going to max out 5/5 Shield Spec, to encourage more Revenge procs and only have 2/3 Focused Rage. I won't have Puncture at all.

Realistically I just nail the macro when revenge is lit up, and again when everything is on CD and I'm flush with rage to let out the HS's.

I see less Heroic Striking happening now that revenge is back and your managing 2 procs, SS and Rev. So macroing it ensures your firing a few off to spend some of that excess rage without even thinking about it.

Bodasafa
03-24-2010, 03:35 PM
I should also note that in ICC due to CotT, your less likely to have avoidance streaks, plus we all are gearing for EH. Really the only time the macros are an issue is if your not getting hit. In that case separate binds would be beneficial. Festergut comes to mind for when your not actually tanking him for example.

Aggathon
03-24-2010, 09:06 PM
I actually was looking at this and my conclusion was exactly the opposite. Specifically that the marginal TPS gain is probably pretty small. Where's your breakpoint? If they made Shield slam do 100 damage and 10,000 threat would you still pick it over Revenge doing 9800 dmg and 9950 threat?

First off, that's an extreme example that doesn't really reflect reality. Secondly, with the discussion of SnB procs, the more procs you use the higher your TPS margin will be, so for every revenge you prioritize over a shield slam, you're not only losing the shield slam threat but the loss of additional shield slam threat margins as the fight progresses over time. In the current damage/mechanics yes, I choose shield slam over revenge any day, even if revenge is ~ 33% more damage per execution, however you also have to realize that since both are on cooldowns there's probably not going to be a lot of overlap as far as priority goes and it probably wouldn't matter that much if SnB didn't exist, but it does.

I see your point, but in my opinion DPS is not a tank's job, you wouldn't ask a warlock to mix in searing pain into their rotation to do more threat just because they can, in my mind the dichotomy is that clear. No one in a 25 man raid cares what the warrior did in DPS, all they care about is that the DPS had enough of a threat margin to safely go balls to the wall on the boss without having to worry about threat, just 1 less thing they could accidentally tunnel vision on.

The priority to me goes:
Survivability >> Threat >> DPS (for those non-math people >> means significantly greater than).

Now as a pre-empt, some people may call me out and say "but aren't you the one that says threat is like "I don't have to outrun the bear I just have to outrun you."" Yes, that is absolutely true as far as GEARING goes, but doing Job #2 (Threat) is all about rotation, and if you can optimize your rotation to do the threat job better, why wouldn't you?

Even at 9-10k TPS I still had dpsers that could ride my tail at high end levels, the more threat you do, the more dps everyone else can do, and that DPS increase is > yours. Every time a rogue or a hunter has to vanish, fd, TotT, or MD (or warlock soul shatter, or mage go invis, etc. etc.) is a time where damage is being lost. I'm willing to bet 1 mage spell critting is more overall damage done than the damage gained by changing your rotation, heh.

Sirloinsteak
03-24-2010, 11:04 PM
The first one I hardly ever got rage starved with the Dev+ HS, even in heroics. Of course I had 3/3 Puncture, 3/3 Imp HS, and 3/3 Focused Rage.

The second one you have to be a bit more careful with since you won't have a spec like that to support it with needing 2/2 Imp Revenge. I'm probably going to max out 5/5 Shield Spec, to encourage more Revenge procs and only have 2/3 Focused Rage. I won't have Puncture at all.

Realistically I just nail the macro when revenge is lit up, and again when everything is on CD and I'm flush with rage to let out the HS's.

I see less Heroic Striking happening now that revenge is back and your managing 2 procs, SS and Rev. So macroing it ensures your firing a few off to spend some of that excess rage without even thinking about it.

i still used the dev bound to HS method last night and just hit rev and ss whenever they came up ... i seems to be pulling 9k-12k threat most of the night

Darmaul
03-25-2010, 06:39 AM
Now as a pre-empt, some people may call me out and say "but aren't you the one that says threat is like "I don't have to outrun the bear I just have to outrun you."" Yes, that is absolutely true as far as GEARING goes, but doing Job #2 (Threat) is all about rotation, and if you can optimize your rotation to do the threat job better, why wouldn't you?

Even at 9-10k TPS I still had dpsers that could ride my tail at high end levels, the more threat you do, the more dps everyone else can do, and that DPS increase is > yours. Every time a rogue or a hunter has to vanish, fd, TotT, or MD (or warlock soul shatter, or mage go invis, etc. etc.) is a time where damage is being lost.

First, I'm not 100% convinced that at raid buffed levels of T10 gear that Revenge actually *is* less threat than shield slam. Especially when you add in things that increase your AP & damage (Enrage, ToTT, +armor procs w/ ATT, etc) that scale well with Revenge and less so with Shield Slam. I think the actual final comparison is way way closer in threat than it will ever appear to be on a dummy. I've got a WoL parse from my run that I'm examining, but it's hard to tell looking at totals which SS's were done with Shield Block up or was the revenge done while an armor procs / AP buffs were on.

Second, I totally agree with you that priority is Survivability, Threat, then damage. I would even agree if you said that until you have a 200k threat lead then SS should be prioritized. However, once you have sufficient total threat that DPS will never catch up, then eeking out a tiny bit of extra tps instead of doing damage is wasted energy. It's like dumping a cup of water into the ocean to make sure it stays full. If you're DPS are threat limited then absolutely, you need to focus on threat. But bosses don't die 'cause you did threat. They die 'cause you enabled the raid to do damage and did damage yourself.

Last night on PP we had a wipe with 88k HP left when the raid damage just blew everyone up. Looking at the parse I saw the warrior tank did 79 total shield slams and 3 revenges. If he'd changed up his priorities and done 40 Shield Slams and 44 revenges at 2k more damage each, *that* would have been the 88k needed. (though I'm NOT blaming the tank, it was dps's fault, he did his number 1 and number 2 job.)

I'll also agree that the tank should be self sufficient on threat. Relying on md / tricks on anything except the initial pull is gimping your raid. But I'd love to see Blizz continue the model that tanks can make a choice between increasing threat or increasing damage. That's an interesting choice and THAT will help define what's a good tank vs. bad tank. Just this single change obviously wouldn't be enough, but hopefully they'll continue this trend. Give tanks some high damage, damage=threat abilities to choose vs. moderate damage and high threat abilities.

Make it so a good tank is holding aggro and doing 2-3k dps and a GREAT tank is holding aggro and doing 4.5-6k dps.

Aggathon
03-25-2010, 08:04 AM
I can agree with that. I guess something that also sticks in my craw is that blizzard doesn't seem to be running these numbers themselves and subsequently aren't balancing it right. It's one thing to balance between classes, but they seem to be failing to balance abilities within classes now.

"Hrmm... shield slam is too OP in PvP, let's buff devastate damage and nerf sbv scaling but increase the threat on shield slam!"
"Okay, now devastate is better than revenge and tanks aren't using it, let's buff it! What's a good number... ummm... 50%?"
"Hey guys... I think we just made revenge better than shield slam"
"crap..."

Raysere
03-25-2010, 08:09 AM
I can agree with that. I guess something that also sticks in my craw is that blizzard doesn't seem to be running these numbers themselves and subsequently aren't balancing it right. It's one thing to balance between classes, but they seem to be failing to balance abilities within classes now.

"Hrmm... shield slam is too OP in PvP, let's buff devastate damage and nerf sbv scaling but increase the threat on shield slam!"
"Okay, now devastate is better than revenge and tanks aren't using it, let's buff it! What's a good number... ummm... 50%?"
"Hey guys... I think we just made revenge better than shield slam"
"crap..."

I wonder this too... we needed a 500 DPS boost at best and out ST threat was fine... now our ST is insane, out AOE is better then it's ever been and our damage is pretty crazy to boot. I guess we're partly to blame for not considering the implications before the patch came out, but then again, why is Blizzard relying on the community to gauge the effect of class buffing?

Eisen
03-25-2010, 10:09 AM
I wonder this too... we needed a 500 DPS boost at best and out ST threat was fine... now our ST is insane, out AOE is better then it's ever been and our damage is pretty crazy to boot. I guess we're partly to blame for not considering the implications before the patch came out, but then again, why is Blizzard relying on the community to gauge the effect of class buffing?

Translation: Prot pvp nerf incoming!

Someone's gonna gripe about getting hit for a skillion damage in an arena from a prot/arms UA spec with top end gear in a very controlled situation and the uproar will be, again, that prot is OP in PVP. Then they'll do something stupid like scale back revenge damage but give it more threat. Once again cementing prot warriors as the tanks that hit like litte girls and encouraging top guilds to pick other tanks for their dps-sensitive hardmode runs.

Status. Bloody. Quo. Hates it, we does.

Raysere
03-25-2010, 10:22 AM
Translation: Prot pvp nerf incoming!

Someone's gonna gripe about getting hit for a skillion damage in an arena from a prot/arms UA spec with top end gear in a very controlled situation and the uproar will be, again, that prot is OP in PVP. Then they'll do something stupid like scale back revenge damage but give it more threat. Once again cementing prot warriors as the tanks that hit like litte girls and encouraging top guilds to pick other tanks for their dps-sensitive hardmode runs.

Status. Bloody. Quo. Hates it, we does.

Can't revenge if you aren't being hit, so just don't hit the Warrior... CC him instead. It's counterable and I think that's blizzard's justification.

Eisen
03-25-2010, 10:25 AM
Can't revenge if you aren't being hit, so just don't hit the Warrior... CC him instead. It's counterable and I think that's blizzard's justification.

What? You mean you should try altering your strategy to win a fight, instead of gripe to Blizzard until the offending class gets nerfed?

You, sir, must not pvp very much on WoW ;)

I agree with you totally btw, just saying that it doesn't tend to work that way.

Raysere
03-25-2010, 10:42 AM
What? You mean you should try altering your strategy to win a fight, instead of gripe to Blizzard until the offending class gets nerfed?

You, sir, must not pvp very much on WoW ;)

I agree with you totally btw, just saying that it doesn't tend to work that way.

Well from the perspective of "10 games a week for points" arena, yourright on.

Better start warming up then bandwagon.

Supermassive
03-25-2010, 10:46 AM
Can't revenge if you aren't being hit, so just don't hit the Warrior... CC him instead. It's counterable and I think that's blizzard's justification.

I LOL'd
You forget that the kids that qq on wow forums don't have that mental capacity.
They see nothing but big numbers and cry.

Bigzoman18
03-25-2010, 12:26 PM
Based off looking at the patch notes just now I would assume sheild slam would still take priority simply because of the sword and board proc.

When I am tanking single targets My rotation is Sheild slam, Devestate, Heroic Strike, and revenge. Not to mention I Q Heroic strike every swing. That+ Revenge makes sword and board proc continuasly and once its proc the boss takes a sheild slam. With the proc happening so often in my rotation I figured that while revenge may do more overall threat I dont nearly use it as much as sheild slam because it procs consistently.

I could be wrong though. The new warrior changes interest me a lot so if you have any corrections to my post feel free to PM me or post it right here

Happy Tanking

Aggathon
03-25-2010, 12:54 PM
Revenge should DEFINITELY be second on the priority list now imo Bigz, bump it up in your priority.

JollyWarrior
03-25-2010, 12:54 PM
"Hrmm... shield slam is too OP in PvP, let's buff devastate damage and nerf sbv scaling but increase the threat on shield slam!"
"Okay, now devastate is better than revenge and tanks aren't using it, let's buff it! What's a good number... ummm... 50%?"
"Hey guys... I think we just made revenge better than shield slam"
"crap..."

Isn't the balance that Revenge isn't Spammable (save for a UA build?) and shouldn't our priority system be approached more from the perspective of how Arms figures priority? Except replace rend with Devestate (for sunder) Execute for SS and OP for Revenge. Still treating conc blow/SW as you would Bladestorm.

Aggathon
03-25-2010, 01:08 PM
Isn't the balance that Revenge isn't Spammable (save for a UA build?) and shouldn't our priority system be approached more from the perspective of how Arms figures priority? Except replace rend with Devestate (for sunder) Execute for SS and OP for Revenge. Still treating conc blow/SW as you would Bladestorm.

Shield slam isn't spammable either. The threat priority has been (since TBC) Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate. With 3.3.2 they accidentally buffed devastate too much and it became better than revenge, since devastate isn't on a cooldown, this lead to Revenge being taken off bars. Blizz realized this and in a blue post said "if people aren't even using revenge any more then we are going to fix that, this is unintended" or something to that affect. HOWEVER, they buffed Revenge so much that it's just short of the threat of SS but about 33% more damage than SS.

Point is they messed up and over corrected.

Inaara
03-25-2010, 01:11 PM
Based off looking at the patch notes just now I would assume sheild slam would still take priority simply because of the sword and board proc.

Quite honestly the SnB proc is the ONLY reason Revenge is second on my priority list.

thecrazyman
03-25-2010, 01:11 PM
The only thing I don't like is that even with the revenge dmg increase it still doesn’t help our issues while off tanking… Trash got easier and single threat got a bump up along with dps while tanking a boss but off tanking still doesn’t do much. That’s because revenge requires someone to attack you for which you dodge or parry or block an attack plus since when did casters ever come up to you and melee attack you?

JollyWarrior
03-25-2010, 01:15 PM
plus since when did casters ever come up to you and melee attack you?

gag order? =P

thecrazyman
03-25-2010, 01:23 PM
true but if they are true pvp'ers they know range is key and even if its a few sec's without spells I doubt they have auto attack on I would hope. If not they deserve to get killed.

Aggathon
03-25-2010, 01:25 PM
Holy Pallies melee people for DP! lol.

Imo this has almost zero PvP implications, I mean rogues are gonna bitch like hell, but whatever. I'm talking about PvE balance.

Khordam
03-26-2010, 05:38 AM
I've done some 45 2v2 games last night in my usual PvProt spec, non-UA. Revenge accounts for around 10% of my damage totals, yet I couldn't say it has won me more than three or four matches. It's going to be up and used against melee, of course, especially during Shield Block, so the revenge buff actually improves one of my burst phases. It's up against such moonkins as foolishly pop their treants on me, and it's up against any pet class that doesn't keep a tight leash (aka passive) on their pet.
The cleave effect is rarely terribly useful except against double melee teams, and sometimes an annoyance, especially with weaker pets, as you end up killing the one thing that's been giving you both rage and revenge procs.
Considering this, I don't believe it'll be nerfed for PvP reasons. Shockwave, for example, is used more frequently overall, does roughly comparable damage and stuns, and hasn't been nerfed, either. If UA becomes a problem - and I could see that happening as you'll blow up any melee opponent in seconds - I hope UA will be adjusted, rather than Revenge or Improved Revenge.

Muffin Man
03-26-2010, 03:22 PM
I wonder this too... we needed a 500 DPS boost at best and out ST threat was fine... now our ST is insane, out AOE is better then it's ever been and our damage is pretty crazy to boot.

Just out of curiosity, how much of a dps boost are you seeing from this? I forgot to update/reload my dps meter after the patch and we're done with ICC for the week so I have no way to gauge my personal dps increase. But I know we were *really* far behind other classes on certain fights.

It's a hefty buff to our AoE dps meters wise. But warriors who don't tab target are still going to have trouble since Rev cleave needs to be spread around manually. So I can't say I've noticed AoE tanking being any easier (but it is prettier seeing huge numbers on two targets).

I guess we're partly to blame for not considering the implications before the patch came out, but then again, why is Blizzard relying on the community to gauge the effect of class buffing?
I kind of chuckle at statements like these... we don't design this game. Besides even if the community said nothing, they should have had all the data they needed from the PTR to see what was going on. Of course they could interpret it wrong, like the WoTN nerf. But that ain't our job or within our ability to fix (especially when we don't know how they interpret things until we see the patch notes).

Of course Devastate overtaking Rev slipped through this process too, so... maybe you're the one laughing.

Naka
03-27-2010, 05:09 PM
I modified the SnB Simulator that talisfears posted 18 months ago in this thread (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40033-Warrior-averaged-rotation) to find out if it's worth to prioritize Revenge over SS and possibly even to wait for Revenge when it's 0.5 seconds away.
I'll attach it to this post, feel free to play around with it, and please let me know if you find any errors.

Notes:
- I set the chance for Revenge to be up to 90%, that's just an estimation.
- The damage values i took from Wartotems spreadsheet for my toon are as follows:
Shield Slam: 3338
Revenge: 5412
Devastate: 3178
- SS damage is without Shield Block up; during SB, we will definitely want to prioritize SS.

So here my results:

SS first, no delay, no latency:
In a 120s cycle with 0ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 25.1 for 83756 damage
Free Slams: 16.5
Revenges: 18.4 for 99810 damage
Devastates: 36.5 for 115887 damage
Total Damage: 299455 in 120s. (2495.5 DPS)

Revenge first, no delay, no latency:
In a 120s cycle with 0ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 23.8 for 79381 damage
Free Slams: 15.7
Revenges: 19.5 for 105340 damage
Devastates: 36.8 for 116805 damage
Total Damage: 301528 in 120s. (2512.7 DPS)

Revenge first, wait 0.5s for Revenge, no latency:
In a 120s cycle with 0ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 20.6 for 68843 damage
Free Slams: 14.2
Revenges: 23.4 for 126900 damage
Devastates: 28.9 for 91846 damage
Total Damage: 287589 in 120s. (2396.6 DPS)

It's pretty close, but with these damage values, we will indeed want to prioritize Revenge over SS. Waiting for Revenge doesn't pay off, however (if you had 0 latency ;)).

Now with 100ms latency:

SS first, no delay, 100ms latency:
In a 120s cycle with 100ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 23.5 for 78459 damage
Free Slams: 15.4
Revenges: 17.3 for 93614 damage
Devastates: 34.2 for 108680 damage
Total Damage: 280753 in 120s. (2339.6 DPS)

Revenge first, no delay, 100ms latency:
In a 120s cycle with 100ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 22.3 for 74353 damage
Free Slams: 14.7
Revenges: 18.2 for 98735 damage
Devastates: 34.5 for 109582 damage
Total Damage: 282670 in 120s. (2355.6 DPS)

Revenge first, wait 0.5s for Revenge, 100ms latency:
In a 120s cycle with 100ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 20.5 for 68328 damage
Free Slams: 14.2
Revenges: 23.3 for 125913 damage
Devastates: 28.6 for 91039 damage
Total Damage: 285282 in 120s. (2377.4 DPS)

So, if you add 100ms latency to every GCD, waiting for Revenge pays off, because you effectively only lose 0.2 seconds instead of 0.5.

Conclusion: Those numbers are all pretty close, and with different damage and latency values they may easily state otherwise. If you really want to minmax, i guess you will have to run a simulation like this for your own personal setup, but i dare say, you are doing nothing terribly wrong if you just stick with plain old SS>Rev>SW>Dev.

Khordam
03-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Nice work, Naka. Thank you for posting it!

Bishoptwo
03-29-2010, 02:41 AM
I modified the SnB Simulator that talisfears posted 18 months ago in this thread (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40033-Warrior-averaged-rotation) to find out if it's worth to prioritize Revenge over SS and possibly even to wait for Revenge when it's 0.5 seconds away.
I'll attach it to this post, feel free to play around with it, and please let me know if you find any errors.

Notes:
- I set the chance for Revenge to be up to 90%, that's just an estimation.
- The damage values i took from Wartotems spreadsheet for my toon are as follows:
Shield Slam: 3338
Revenge: 5412
Devastate: 3178
- SS damage is without Shield Block up; during SB, we will definitely want to prioritize SS.

So here my results:

SS first, no delay, no latency:
In a 120s cycle with 0ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 25.1 for 83756 damage
Free Slams: 16.5
Revenges: 18.4 for 99810 damage
Devastates: 36.5 for 115887 damage
Total Damage: 299455 in 120s. (2495.5 DPS)

Revenge first, no delay, no latency:
In a 120s cycle with 0ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 23.8 for 79381 damage
Free Slams: 15.7
Revenges: 19.5 for 105340 damage
Devastates: 36.8 for 116805 damage
Total Damage: 301528 in 120s. (2512.7 DPS)

Revenge first, wait 0.5s for Revenge, no latency:
In a 120s cycle with 0ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 20.6 for 68843 damage
Free Slams: 14.2
Revenges: 23.4 for 126900 damage
Devastates: 28.9 for 91846 damage
Total Damage: 287589 in 120s. (2396.6 DPS)

It's pretty close, but with these damage values, we will indeed want to prioritize Revenge over SS. Waiting for Revenge doesn't pay off, however (if you had 0 latency ;)).

Now with 100ms latency:

SS first, no delay, 100ms latency:
In a 120s cycle with 100ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 23.5 for 78459 damage
Free Slams: 15.4
Revenges: 17.3 for 93614 damage
Devastates: 34.2 for 108680 damage
Total Damage: 280753 in 120s. (2339.6 DPS)

Revenge first, no delay, 100ms latency:
In a 120s cycle with 100ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 22.3 for 74353 damage
Free Slams: 14.7
Revenges: 18.2 for 98735 damage
Devastates: 34.5 for 109582 damage
Total Damage: 282670 in 120s. (2355.6 DPS)

Revenge first, wait 0.5s for Revenge, 100ms latency:
In a 120s cycle with 100ms lag between moves:
Shield Slams: 20.5 for 68328 damage
Free Slams: 14.2
Revenges: 23.3 for 125913 damage
Devastates: 28.6 for 91039 damage
Total Damage: 285282 in 120s. (2377.4 DPS)

So, if you add 100ms latency to every GCD, waiting for Revenge pays off, because you effectively only lose 0.2 seconds instead of 0.5.

Conclusion: Those numbers are all pretty close, and with different damage and latency values they may easily state otherwise. If you really want to minmax, i guess you will have to run a simulation like this for your own personal setup, but i dare say, you are doing nothing terribly wrong if you just stick with plain old SS>Rev>SW>Dev.

You're my hero.