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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Making Warcraft Too Easy?



Ciderhelm
03-21-2010, 05:08 PM
iy7xwW53j7g

http://www.tankspot.com/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

Lakshata
03-21-2010, 06:58 PM
I want to see what happens to PvP because of this. Hopefully it doesn't make it broken.

Baervar
03-21-2010, 10:36 PM
Bit off-topic here, am i the only one who misses the ulduar-style of activating HM's and who thinks that "press button for HM" really is over-simplifying it a bit and taking from the encounter's beauty? :P

Fudandragg
03-21-2010, 10:50 PM
GearScore makes a player better and more skillful.

Razzdango
03-21-2010, 10:56 PM
Lore mentioned that everyone said that WotLK was going to make everything easier. I think its the general consensus that it is in fact incredibly easy. Bosses dies within days if not THE day they come out. Sure we havn't seen a Heroic Lich King kill but that is one fight amongst 12. How many heroic kills were there the day it was available? I don't remember...did this happen in TBC? I'm sure it wasn't like that in Classic. IMO blizzard needs to stop this attitude that "everyone needs to see everything". They said people weren't raiding as much before WotLK but everyone I remember playing with always had the goal of raiding in mind, and most were at least in some raid dungeon. It might not have been bleeding edge but they were raiding. I really hope Cataclysm is harder then WotLK because if its exactly the same I'm canceling my account for good.The only reason im still playing now is I love the guild im in and I'm hoping "Cataclysm'll fix it"

Baervar
03-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Lore mentioned that everyone said that WotLK was going to make everything easier. I think its the general consensus that it is in fact incredibly easy. Bosses dies within days if not THE day they come out. Sure we havn't seen a Heroic Lich King kill but that is one fight amongst 12. How many heroic kills were there the day it was available? I don't remember...did this happen in TBC? I'm sure it wasn't like that in Classic. IMO blizzard needs to stop this attitude that "everyone needs to see everything". They said people weren't raiding as much before WotLK but everyone I remember playing with always had the goal of raiding in mind, and most were at least in some raid dungeon. It might not have been bleeding edge but they were raiding. I really hope Cataclysm is harder then WotLK because if its exactly the same I'm canceling my account for good.The only reason im still playing now is I love the guild im in and I'm hoping "Cataclysm'll fix it"

I may not have been around during TBC but at this point i'm pretty sure ALL the HM's are far from being a faceroll. You have to understand that the people who are actually downing HM's within the first days are people who've wiped many many times before together, in TBC as well most likely. The experience and overall addon-use (technology if you want to say lol) have increased tremendously since the times of TBC and it's a really big factor in how effective guilds are against said HM's.

Overall i think encounter difficulty is okay - normal modes are more accessible for non-hardcore raiders, HM's are for the tougher guilds but may become more and more accessible as things progress. If anything i'd like more encounters with quirks and twists - as a melee i consider fights like saurfang and festergut pretty boring, queen would be as well prolly if it weren't for the bite mechanic.

Still thing Ulduar was better designed though, one of the reason was for the way HM's were activated - how some were layered and gave some guilds training time on their way to reaching full HM, or how some were gear-checks, it seemed a lot neater. Innovation over difficulty i say!

Razzdango
03-21-2010, 11:31 PM
I may not have been around during TBC but at this point i'm pretty sure ALL the HM's are far from being a faceroll. You have to understand that the people who are actually downing HM's within the first days are people who've wiped many many times before together, in TBC as well most likely. The experience and overall addon-use (technology if you want to say lol) have increased tremendously since the times of TBC and it's a really big factor in how effective guilds are against said HM's.

Overall i think encounter difficulty is okay - normal modes are more accessible for non-hardcore raiders, HM's are for the tougher guilds but may become more and more accessible as things progress. If anything i'd like more encounters with quirks and twists - as a melee i consider fights like saurfang and festergut pretty boring, queen would be as well prolly if it weren't for the bite mechanic.

Still thing Ulduar was better designed though, one of the reason was for the way HM's were activated - how some were layered and gave some guilds training time on their way to reaching full HM, or how some were gear-checks, it seemed a lot neater. Innovation over difficulty i say!

With two modes for everything guilds kill all the bosses in regular super fast just to get to hard modes and then repeat the same instance AGAIN but harder. Back before WotLK when everything was hard mode guilds actually got to progress at a challenging level right out the gate. They either need to make hard mode open at the start of the instance and have a gear level so high that the guild has no reason to do regular, or do only hard modes again and the lesser talented guilds will just have to get more gear or practice. With everything hard they can scale the difficulty with the entry level bosses being easier then those further in. easy mode (hard modes are the real normal mode) was the worst thing blizzard could have done. It makes thing redundant and boring.

Mhoram
03-21-2010, 11:54 PM
We're still having this discussion? People have been mourning the loss of difficulty in this game since WotLK was in beta two years ago.

It's a simple answer, people. This game is the way it is because Blizzard wants it to be that way. If you're enjoying it, play it. If you're looking for more of a challenge than it's giving you, move on.

Razzdango
03-22-2010, 12:31 AM
like i said....if it doesnt change in cataclysm im quitting for good.

Kahmal
03-22-2010, 12:51 AM
You cant deny that Blizz has indeed dumbed the game down. They try to cater to the hardcore and casuals but in the end the middle tier kind of gets screwed. They should have just stuck to TBC model with the nerfing bat system, all while having more puggable raids.

Churles
03-22-2010, 01:55 AM
Couple things here.
One, I find your view on stats to be overly simplistic.
With the surplus of different stats, differentiating between different gear can be very difficult.

Examples: Im wearing an Ilvl 264, and we do 10 man icc, and another item for that slot drops.
Well it is a 251 so most people would think its worse, but it has arp instead of hit and im over hit cap.
Thus the item is better.


Also I argue that with the restructuring of talent trees, talents also become easier. With most talent builds now, you have so many mandatory talents. However most people dont work together to spread out key buffs and free up talent points. In cata, you will be hard pressed to make a talent tree without key buffs, you will be choosing between fluff, which means, you could not spend say 3, 5, or maybe even 7 talent points and see no loss to dps, hps, or dtps.

Example: The marksman talent spec is pretty much set, however there are a number of talents that are beneficial to the raid. Take improved hunters mark, also glyphing said mark. It is a dps loss for the hunter, but then another hunter gets true shot aura so he doesn't have to, etc.


I also don't think path of the titans will make the game harder.
I predict it to be like glyphs, where you have a bis set, with minor superfluous benefits.



Overall, will Cataclysm make the game TOO EASY? No, but the game has been dumbed down considerably, and is on the path to continue doing so.

Yet, as pointed out, there will still be failures, who can't grasp this easy game.

vhaarr
03-22-2010, 02:49 AM
I just downloaded this movie through the donor service and the sound is broken.
All previous weekly marmots have worked fine (and indeed still do - I just tested the last 4 ones and the sound is fine).

So perhaps you changed your encoder settings somehow? Please change it back :P

Daxwax
03-22-2010, 04:12 AM
like i said....if it doesnt change in cataclysm im quitting for good.

Cataclysm will not bring about a different mindset encounter-wise.
I read in a blue somewhere that they think Ulduar was too hardcore, which in my opinion was the best made instance of the expansion (for many reasons).

JakobBloch
03-22-2010, 05:09 AM
Cataclysm will not bring about a different mindset encounter-wise.
I read in a blue somewhere that they think Ulduar was too hardcore, which in my opinion was the best made instance of the expansion (for many reasons).

Hmm I think I read the same post but it was not meant as being too hard but too big. It was big beautiful but a bitch to get all the way through. For someone who had the time it was no trouble getting through it but for someone with limited time it was very hard. After a while it also got a bit monotonous.

As for Hard modes I think they are a brilliant concept but they have not been handled well. The simple UI shift is a little boring and too much of the hard mode is just more Health and Damage. Now this move can work with some encounters (Saurfang and the Queen come to mind) but to truly make an encounter harder, and thus split the cream from the milk, the mechanics of the fight has to change in some meaningful way. Sartharion still stands as a poster child in this respect. A fairly simple fight on its own equal to Onyxia or most of MC and BWL in difficulty. However add the drakes and the fight gets a lot harder. Suddenly you have a hard dps timer, more adds, a portal mechanic with powerful debuffs (or buffs for the boss) and you still have to deal with the flame waves and the normal adds. In Ulduar you saw lots of these kinds of things too: Flame Leviathan, The Assembly of Iron, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron and of course Yogg'saron herself (XT also had a hardmode that changed the fight radically but in my opinion that just made the fight easier and not harder) These are fights where the hard mode is not just some small thing but a really big thing and that is how it should be.

Bodasafa
03-22-2010, 05:41 AM
We're still having this discussion? People have been mourning the loss of difficulty in this game since WotLK was in beta two years ago.

It's a simple answer, people. This game is the way it is because Blizzard wants it to be that way. If you're enjoying it, play it. If you're looking for more of a challenge than it's giving you, move on.

With all due respect, I don't subscribe to your statement. We (the players) have every right to voice our concerns about the game to the dev's in hopes of change we feel is needed. Just because blizzard wants things to be one way does not mean we have to agree with them or move on. There have been many meaningful discussions on these forums that have helped shape the game and probably in different directions than blizzard intended.

As far as Cata goes, I'm hoping for something in between BC and the over casualization of Wrath. And yes Ulduar Hard Modes is where they got it right. Complete replica instances and replica loot with a hair more stats is about as uninteresting as it gets.

Scyla
03-22-2010, 05:42 AM
One thing that could happen with the new talent system in Cataclysm is that the game is more accessable because you don't need to put effort into knowing what's the right gear choice because you can easily see if this item is an upgrade or not. Especially with reforging you can eliminate to much hit on your gear.

It was never a problem to know which items/enchantments/glyphs/gems are the best for your role/spec but you had to know where to get this information. With Cataclysm (at least this is what the new stat-system should do) you don't need this anymore because the whole system is simplified (simplified in a good way).

Also with the overhaul of the talenttrees there is much more room for talents that are fun to play with. Think of 76 points you could spend into talents like extra proccs (as in the armstree) or utility-talents such as warbringer of even metamorphoses like the demonology-warlock. This can make the gameplay of WoW much more dynamic an fun.
At the moment (at least for the roles/classes I play) there are perhaps 1 to 3 different specs that are viable for the raidconent/pvp (I admit that I don't have much pvp-knowledge).
They only differ in few talentpoints that don't have a huge impact on the way you preform in raids (maybe putting talentpoints into improved demoralizing shout has the biggest impact on the performance of a def-warrior but it won't has almost no affect the way you play your char).

Blizzard has a huge chance here to bring more variety into the game but there is also the chance that they screw it up so that the choices you have are nonexistent just like now (the chances are 50:50 I guess :P ).

Will the difficulty of the game suffer from the new stat-system or the new talent-trees?
No it won't because its all about the raidbosses (as I said I don't do pvp). If the encounters are hard than the game difficulty will be hard it they are easy the game will be easy.
The problem Blizzard has is that the WoW-engine and the script-based bosses don't leave much room for improvements.
In the past 5 years all has been done and bosses nowadays have many many elements where you can say: "Oh this is like the skill from boss abc or you can survive this like skill xyz form this boss etc."

So the really big question for Cataclysm is: Can Blizzard create bosses that feel new and challenging and are not hard to beat because they have a insane amount of hitpoints. If Deathwing is just Nefarina+Onyxia but with 3 billion hp he will be boring as hell ;) .

Volador
03-22-2010, 07:46 AM
For those of you that weren't around at the start (or don't recall), WoW has always been more user friendly (catering to a larger group) than it's competitor's. When it was released originally it was one of a very select few MMO's that allowed for solo play (and thus more people at max level). It has only moved more towards the larger group since then. If you are hoping Cataclysm will move towards less groups capable of completing end-game content, you are probably going to be disappointed.

Blizzard is first and foremost a large company, the goal of which is to make money. Catering to the elitist MINORITY is not a sound economic decision when you can cater to the "casual" MAJORITY. Not to mention all those poor TBC Devs, whose content was never seen by 90% of the player base because it was tuned only for the elite.

mavfin
03-22-2010, 08:55 AM
If you are hoping Cataclysm will move towards less groups capable of completing end-game content, you are probably going to be disappointed.


This. If you think normal mode raiding will be any less accessible in Cataclysm than it is now, you're going to be disappointed. The days where you could simply get raid gear and be special are forever gone. If that's what you want, you're playing the wrong game now. End of story.

squats
03-22-2010, 09:31 AM
We're still having this discussion? People have been mourning the loss of difficulty in this game since WotLK was in beta two years ago.

It's a simple answer, people. This game is the way it is because Blizzard wants it to be that way. If you're enjoying it, play it. If you're looking for more of a challenge than it's giving you, move on.

I am convinced that the only reason the wow population is still huge, is because there is no other MMO that measures up to wow at all.

I think ciderhelm's post about what blizzard needs to change if they hope to keep this game rolling is spot on. The game isnt getting easier. its just that people who have been playing this game for a few years already are familiar with all of the boss tactics. blizzard really needs to think of new things, void zones and ticking raid damage is getting boring.

Arakken
03-22-2010, 10:55 AM
I think we are all skipping over the REALLY big and important question here...

Who was the chick who laughed at the end of the video?!?!

Mwawka
03-22-2010, 10:55 AM
I think there is some confusion here about what making the game easier means. Playing the game will require the same set of skills as it does now. Which buttons you press and when may change, but the fact is that skilled players will remain skilled players. What may change is that perhaps those players who don't want to have to set up spreadsheets, spend hours sorting through posts on Theorycrafting forums and plug all their gear into simulators, but are still skilled at game play, may be able to get more out of their characters. That is a change I actually welcome. Less time figuring out what to wear means more time I can be doing other stuff, in game or out.

These proposed changes may close the gap at the bottom to middle end of player skill, but won't likely affect the most skilled players. I realize that a lot of people love the theorycrafting aspect of the game, but I am sure their still be things to discuss and explore on this front.

Razzdango
03-22-2010, 12:00 PM
For those of you that weren't around at the start (or don't recall), WoW has always been more user friendly (catering to a larger group) than it's competitor's. When it was released originally it was one of a very select few MMO's that allowed for solo play (and thus more people at max level). It has only moved more towards the larger group since then. If you are hoping Cataclysm will move towards less groups capable of completing end-game content, you are probably going to be disappointed.

Blizzard is first and foremost a large company, the goal of which is to make money. Catering to the elitist MINORITY is not a sound economic decision when you can cater to the "casual" MAJORITY. Not to mention all those poor TBC Devs, whose content was never seen by 90% of the player base because it was tuned only for the elite.

And blizzards new way of focusing on the "casual majority" is exactly why they havn't had growth in over a year....

If they are any good of a business they will go back closer to a TBC or Classic model when they were actually growing. This new model is unsustainable and I can't be the only one that is waiting to see if cata will bring us back to the good days....

And about the 90% of the people seeing TBC content.... first where did you get that statistic, and second that doesn't say that people were not RAIDING they just didnt see that specific instance, and thats not a bad thing, MMO's are about a carrot on a stick and thats a great carrot. Those not on the bleeding edge of content done NEED new content every patch because they still have things in the game that are new to them. New instances should be for the bleeding edge where they need that new content.

Kahmal
03-22-2010, 12:03 PM
Hmm I think I read the same post but it was not meant as being too hard but too big. It was big beautiful but a bitch to get all the way through. For someone who had the time it was no trouble getting through it but for someone with limited time it was very hard. After a while it also got a bit monotonous.

As for Hard modes I think they are a brilliant concept but they have not been handled well. The simple UI shift is a little boring and too much of the hard mode is just more Health and Damage. Now this move can work with some encounters (Saurfang and the Queen come to mind) but to truly make an encounter harder, and thus split the cream from the milk, the mechanics of the fight has to change in some meaningful way. Sartharion still stands as a poster child in this respect. A fairly simple fight on its own equal to Onyxia or most of MC and BWL in difficulty. However add the drakes and the fight gets a lot harder. Suddenly you have a hard dps timer, more adds, a portal mechanic with powerful debuffs (or buffs for the boss) and you still have to deal with the flame waves and the normal adds. In Ulduar you saw lots of these kinds of things too: Flame Leviathan, The Assembly of Iron, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron and of course Yogg'saron herself (XT also had a hardmode that changed the fight radically but in my opinion that just made the fight easier and not harder) These are fights where the hard mode is not just some small thing but a really big thing and that is how it should be.

I completly agree here has to this is where the issue in Wrath comes. Many people argued about Hard Modes but from 3D Sarth to Ulduar the system was working fantastic in my opinion. Activating them in a special way made thing interesting and the encounter usually changed dramatically, more reminiscent of old school fights where your task wasn't just to kill the boss while avoiding fire. The activation also worked as a gear check in some cases as well, such as Thorim and XT, perhaps a change they should make for hard modes like Thorim is that after you activate his HM and wipe you have the option to just turn it back on, since failing on tunnel and having to wipe can be tedious. When ToC came out all they did was had Health to the bosses and the chance that your tank could actually get globaled. Granted many people cheat there way through Twin Valks, and Anub 25 actually is a challenge, you can really be satisified with only one actual hard encounter in a raid with only 5<snip> bosses. (I still want an apology for the Abomination that is ToC)

ICC25's Hardmodes kept the same model, with a few exceptions, my question however is whether Blizzard wants the bosses to be easy, or if dramatically changing the enounter is just too much work for them while they are working on other projects. After all Ulduar was well in the works pre-launch I believe, and ToC just proves they were tight on time. (I would have toiled in Ulduar longer though for a real raid though)

Lakshata
03-22-2010, 02:47 PM
Cataclysm will not bring about a different mindset encounter-wise.
I read in a blue somewhere that they think Ulduar was too hardcore, which in my opinion was the best made instance of the expansion (for many reasons).

/Agree with ulduar being the best instance this expansion.

mavfin
03-22-2010, 02:56 PM
Those not on the bleeding edge of content done NEED new content every patch because they still have things in the game that are new to them. New instances should be for the bleeding edge where they need that new content.

Blizzard said it makes no business sense to develop whole raid instances for only the bleeding-edge to see and feel special over. That's not coming back. Hardmodes are all you're getting. If that's not good enough, then you're barking up the wrong tree. All raid instances will continue you to be highly accessible to groups that aren't stupid, as well as 'baseline starting gear' to get into them, I would imagine. How they do hardmodes will probably continue to be experimented with, imo.

Dreadheart
03-22-2010, 04:48 PM
I think that when many people comment on the game being easier they always referring to the boss fights. I have found, and am finding, many of the boss fights to be fun and challenging yet I still have the feeling that the game is easier than it used to be. No, I haven't killed the Lich King. I think that the feeling of reduced challenge is coming from how accessible everything is now. Getting to a certain point in the endgame used to take a lot of effort, rep grinding was more time consuming, attunement made for a progression pathway, and the distinct lack of class-defining abilities like CC due to over-easy heroic dungeons are what are making the game feel easy. The boss fights are ok for the most part.

Having identical 10 and 25man raids does make the content sterile much quicker for guilds who run both groups - add to this hard modes of the same bosses and there definitely can be a feeling of resentment towards the content after a few months. Even if they don't go back to the way the game was in BC (which I really enjoyed) I hope they consider using the exclusive 10man and 25man raid model of TBC - including multiple raids that drop the same tier level of gear. I remember being involved in raiding BT, Hyjal, Tk and SCC, whilst still running Gruul's for the elusive Dragonspine Trophy and even hitting Kara for badges... I didn't ever get bored of raiding in BC.

Hammerfists
03-22-2010, 06:05 PM
I think most people have misused the word "easy" in this discussion. This is after all a video game. The long rep grinds did feel rewarding but in the end werent hard just time consuming. I myself dont have the time anymore to go back to the days of TBC between my job and school, im sure most people can agree. The pigeon holding of certain abilities to certain classes like CC was a nuisance. I like that hex is different from sheep but does about the same job. This promotes you not having to be a specific class and more of a general class ie ranged when a guild scouts for you. TBC had more of a stringent raid make up in order to be successful that Wrath.

I second that Ulduar had a very nice design between Normal and Hard mode as well as some of the most challenging hard modes of this x-pac. TBC though in comparison had one major flaw in progression, towards the end content was coming out for a small percentage of the players. This also created the problem of recruiting for those guilds since few people at this point had gear capable of the content who werent already in a guild or having to gear them.

Ultimately i find Wrath made the game more acessable that easier. You can now also play whatever class you want more freely. Hard mode design has been iffy but its new and i imagine in Cataclysm it will be more polished. I wont judge Cataclysm till it ships since everything we heard till now can and might be changed, beta isnt out yet so these are all brain storm ideas to see how the community reacts.

Terthon
03-22-2010, 07:03 PM
Hard Modes are going to be fine to keep the very high caliber players happy if there's done like Ulduar, not necessarily the gimmicky triggers, but actual mechanics which change the way an encounter has to be done. Things like Mimiron's Fire-fighter or Yogg+0 made a fight which originally complicated a ton more complicated and really hard. Those are the kind of chances that elite players want, not the "boss hits 25% harder and does 25% more damage" which is 95% of what's being done in ToGC and ICC, along with one small added ability. I think we'll also see more Hard Mode only bosses as well instead of Tribute chests.

Weaning off casuals from simply AoEing their way through an 5-man dungeon and requiring them to use and respect CC is going to be driving those using the random dungeon system insane. Hopefully we'll get some kind of glyph/talent which says, "Will not break Polymorph due to your lousy Paladin tank dropping consecration right on top of your target."

Kahmal
03-22-2010, 10:10 PM
I think some Wrath raiders are in a sense cheated out of becoming capable raiders, AoEing your way throught Heroics and Naxx aren't giving you nearly as much experiance as TBC Heroics did.

On top of that DBM practically steers for you, I mean I know I can play w/o the alerts, like when it wasn't updated for new wings, but others may not have developed their own raid awareness.

Flexthetroll
03-22-2010, 11:09 PM
Fist things first, if a vast majority of these posts think wow is to easy; leave go to EQ2 like where most of you came from. Then see how easy it is doing end game on dying servers. Every patch/expansion I have to listen to you want-to-be elite/ elite complain about this game, I have a great idea for you. If the game is not up to your mad skills, turn off all your add-ons. You know like DBM, DC, Healbot, Grid, ECT; all of them then go after these encounters. I would love to see how bad you fail when you don’t have add-ons telling you when to move. Go to EQ they don’t let anyone make any add-ons for their game, so then maybe you will have a match for your epic skills. The community will not miss you, and your guilds will flourish without you. You just have to remember that you are not as important in this world as you think you are. Remember you're self proclaimed good at a video game that does not matter. If you think anyone really cares about what you think should happen to the game, let me rest your mind at ease. Blizzard nor other players care what you think should happen to the game, so next time you want to speak up about something don't. Blizzard tells you they care because they want you "elitists" to think you have some say in the game so you keep coming back for more. Disclaimer this is not an attack on Tankspot this is an attack on the people that every patch/expansion complain about wow getting easier. I have always wondered why the bedrock of these kinds of post usually are how "good" players can set themselves apart from "bad" players. My main question is how much could possibly be missing in your life (you know that thing we all live in) that you would need to establish you greatness on something that well... DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.......... Most of you will come back with, "we are just playing the game right, cant help it if people can't figure out how to play it right." or something similar to this, I am guessing much more arrogant. The thing is now you have to stop and ask yourself why you play a game to be the best. Why don’t you play the game to just have fun, and if being the best if fun for you; you should probably try to get psychological help.

Notavi
03-23-2010, 03:40 AM
An interesting post. The Mastery system certainly does worry me a little in terms of its potential to over-simplify gearing, but given that they are leaving some of the other stats in the game, it's a potential that need not be realized.

With respect to talents, I believe they have said before that they want people to have more 'free' talent points to spend on utility talents. That would certainly serve to make talent spec a more interesting area than it is now, where cookie cutter builds that leave few points spare are the norm.

Although I see that this has gone a bit into the old elite vs. "casual" debate, where casual is either defined as "we have a life" or "lazy and unskilled" depending on which side you ask. It's a lovely exercise in pointlessness as while there are players at either end of the scale, (who either want to be the only ones who can clear content, or who want content to be more of a scenic, easy loot experience), IMHO it's not the most meaningful way to look at the issue.

There are players who want the content to challenge them at every level of it. If you look at some of the raider interviews posted lately, the encounters they recall most fondly are the ones which they struggled with continuously, where blood, sweat and tears were expended to bring them down. It's the very effort required to accomplish the goal that in the end makes it worth it. And you can see this in the less progressed guilds as well, there were more than a few posts in the thread on the 5% buff from people in guilds at various levels of progression in ICC feeling cheated because the kill they were working for got handed to them. They simply didn't feel they earned it.

And there seem to be players that just want to be able to go in and get the loot. They're about the destination and the reward, and not about the journey getting there.

I'm not the most raid-experienced player out there, my TBC experience is one Kara raid, days before Wrath was released. My Wrath experience is alot of Naxx 25 and some Ulduar, which was followed by an absence from the game due to IRL matters. I'm only just getting back into raiding.

But the thing is, I want the content I face to require effort, to test my mettle, to force me to learn and become better. I want my boss kills to take effort, and to feel a sense an accomplishment when I conquer them. I want to feel the rush those raiders talked about in those interviews, and I don't particularly care if it comes from downing Arthas, or it comes from downing Marrowgar.

And I suspect I'm not alone in my sentiment.

Hammerfists
03-23-2010, 03:51 AM
An interesting post. The Mastery system certainly does worry me a little in terms of its potential to over-simplify gearing, but given that they are leaving some of the other stats in the game, it's a potential that need not be realized.
To throw my two cents in here, i think its just clears the clutter. As far as armor break down we all know some plate need armor pen and others need more haste or crit, for rogues even some specs need haste others need armor pen, and we all know the shaman vs hunter problem. The biggest problem blizz has right now is they can create a piece of gear for everyone but there will be times when loot drops that nobody can use. Or you can get the bis item which might be better for someone else of your gear caliber making for dps disparities. Mastery paves the way for blizz not needing to make multiple armor sets per raid as well as not take tickets of RLs asking for a diffrent armor piece. You still will have to juggle the stats to understand what makes you the best. Its just that my shaman can finally get stats catered to him instead of taking a subar stat because it happens to be the "bis" item of this raid.

Also mastery is a nice lever when "buffing" or "nerfing" classes. I assume that we will see more minor patches dealing with class balancing than the current method of finding the right talent to tweak.

Flexthetroll
03-23-2010, 04:49 AM
An interesting post. The Mastery system certainly does worry me a little in terms of its potential to over-simplify gearing, but given that they are leaving some of the other stats in the game, it's a potential that need not be realized.

With respect to talents, I believe they have said before that they want people to have more 'free' talent points to spend on utility talents. That would certainly serve to make talent spec a more interesting area than it is now, where cookie cutter builds that leave few points spare are the norm.

Although I see that this has gone a bit into the old elite vs. "casual" debate, where casual is either defined as "we have a life" or "lazy and unskilled" depending on which side you ask. It's a lovely exercise in pointlessness as while there are players at either end of the scale, (who either want to be the only ones who can clear content, or who want content to be more of a scenic, easy loot experience), IMHO it's not the most meaningful way to look at the issue.

There are players who want the content to challenge them at every level of it. If you look at some of the raider interviews posted lately, the encounters they recall most fondly are the ones which they struggled with continuously, where blood, sweat and tears were expended to bring them down. It's the very effort required to accomplish the goal that in the end makes it worth it. And you can see this in the less progressed guilds as well, there were more than a few posts in the thread on the 5% buff from people in guilds at various levels of progression in ICC feeling cheated because the kill they were working for got handed to them. They simply didn't feel they earned it.

And there seem to be players that just want to be able to go in and get the loot. They're about the destination and the reward, and not about the journey getting there.

I'm not the most raid-experienced player out there, my TBC experience is one Kara raid, days before Wrath was released. My Wrath experience is alot of Naxx 25 and some Ulduar, which was followed by an absence from the game due to IRL matters. I'm only just getting back into raiding.

But the thing is, I want the content I face to require effort, to test my mettle, to force me to learn and become better. I want my boss kills to take effort, and to feel a sense an accomplishment when I conquer them. I want to feel the rush those raiders talked about in those interviews, and I don't particularly care if it comes from downing Arthas, or it comes from downing Marrowgar.

And I suspect I'm not alone in my sentiment.

I don’t think I could agree with you more, just because you are not on end game content doesn’t mean people don’t get enjoyment out of the game. The way I look at it is the people who just play this game for world firsts, server first, best gear. These are the people that are really hurting the game and the sad part is they don’t know or care that they are. By demanding all this new content with new ideas in raid mechanics, and still want it to be hard. Then don't raid 4 days a week, go outside, get a tan, hang out with friends, do something other then raiding. By forcing the content to be released as fast as blizz can you are in fact nerfing the encounters. They need time to come up with this "new stuff", the ideas that blizz has had do not come over night; it requires time. I have looked at some of the top end guilds and even the little better then average guilds. It is like applying for a job, the sad part is it is set up like a job. We raid 4 days a week mon,wed,thurs,fri, from 7pm server time to 10pm. you must attend all raids, we do 10 mans on off raid days; you must supply your own flash and gold for repairs. Know your class. I mean that is one day shy of a full time job, I use to be in a raid guild I left because it was like another job. If people did not do things like this and just took there time, you would see an increase in good content. I personal think all the content has been good, but I guess some people always think they could do better.=/

Hargood
03-23-2010, 08:52 AM
For those who complain about it being easy, it can make you feel better if you think of "Heroic Modes" as Regular and "Normal Modes" as Easy/Novice. (alilttle Better Anyways)

Thats pretty much it i think. Not everyone can / could do WOTLK Heroic/Hard Mode Content on all of these raids. But if Easy Mode means "Everyone Will Get To See ALL THE CONTENT!!!!!?" ..yeah, so? Who cares?

mero12513
03-23-2010, 10:42 AM
As an anecdote, I don't personally find actual boss encounters to be any easier (from a tanking perspective) than they were in the Burning Crusade. What has changed is the attitude and experience of the WoW community to focus more on raiding in general. I tanked and raid led everything through Illidan in BC, and I can't recall anything truly difficult about it. You had to stance dance on Archimonde. You had to hit shield block on Illidan. Pick up 3 adds on Akama. Move out of D&D on Rage. The mechanics we're seeing in ICC (normal and hardmode) are really the same type of things. Cider gave a fantastic explanation of why raiding so easy these days, and it's not really because the encounters themselves are easier. It's because the player base is more experienced, more willing to raid, and it is orders of magnitude easier to put together a synergistic raid group than it used to be. 10-man raids help this too. We've seen these encounter mechanics before, in some form or another, and that makes them feel easier because we understand how to deal with them. The leveling up experience and the 5-man and heroic instances give players reasonable training for raiding and access to the gear required to raid.

I also don't agree that hard-mode encounters should have new and exciting encounter mechanics. One of primary joys of designing anything, and maybe especially a game, is letting as many people as possible experience and appreciate what you have designed. Blizzard wants to allow everyone who wants to the ability to experience the content they create because that is satisfying for both the designers and the customers. More hardcore players who want a challenge should be given that challenge, but should they also be given entirely new encounter mechanics (which requires significant design and testing time) that the huge majority of the population will never see? Personally, I think not.

In perfect world of unicorns and rainbows, blizzard would have the time to design truly interesting content for every level of raider, to have that content available very frequently, and present both challenge and proportionate reward to everyone who plays the game. That is actually a pretty unreasonable goal, and yet Blizzard has come very close in this latest expansion. Are there decisions I don't agree with and problems to be solved? Of course. But the fact remains that there is still challenge in the game everyone. If you say that there is nothing in this game to challenge you, you are lying. Perhaps your current challenge is finding the right people to raid with. I know that every group and guild has players that are leaps and bounds better than the rest, and that can often be a major frustration (one that I've personally felt many times). However, the best players in the world have still not completed every challenge, so it's completely false to say that the game is too easy. Perhaps you, personally, don't feel challenged. If that is the case, then it's likely the fault of group of people you raid with, not the designers.

I'll take the time another day to talk about why the best guilds in the world defeating content quickly is in no way a sign that the content is too easy. However, the current wall of text is tall enough.

Mangea
03-23-2010, 11:22 AM
There are a couple things we should remember.
1. The game gets easier by players figuring it out, creating raiding guides, theorycrafting, establishing priorities and rotations, and discovering the formulas that make the game run. The information that a handful of really smart players uncover gets disseminated to the rest of the player base, and we all get better at the game as a result. Thus the game gets easier, even if the game itself hasn't changed.

2. Like Ghostcrawler keeps saying, we don't have all the information at this point to make an intelligent opinion. The most any of us can do is speculate or simply wonder. There isn't a single person outside of Blizzard who can make a legitimate argument that the game is going to get easier or harder based on what we currently know about the Mastery system or anything else Blizz has told us about.

We won't know about how talent trees are going to change, we don't know how the combat ratings will change between 80-85, we don't know what new spells we're going to get are, and we don't know much at all about the Path of Titans. And these are just things that pertain to our characters. There's nothing about new boss fights, damage intake, mechanics, or anything! We simply don't know.

Bashal
03-23-2010, 11:45 AM
I think folks who are worried that simplification of gearing choices and (possibly) simplification of talent trees will somehow make the game too easy are a little off-base. That didn't make the game hard, it made it cookie-cutter. Use this EJ spec cause it's highest DPS. Follow this BiS guide. Following guides and copying a spec and rotation someone else worked out isn't hard. It's fairly brain-dead, and it's why I'm able to have 6 alts that can all raid fairly effectively. That's just spending about 15 minutes doing some reading or loading your armory character into a spreadsheet and listening to what Rawr! says you should do. How is that difficult?

Sure, you can throw all that out the window and math some (or all) of it out yourself. But how many people here actually bother with that when you can just look it up quickly?

As far as raiding goes, boss mechanics and the visual environment is what makes it cool. Patchwerk-type fights will always be boring after the first time (or even during the first time), and how you made your gear choices and spec to fight Patchwerk didn't make killing him more interesting or challenging.

If gear and spec decisions will in fact require less use of auxiliary resources to make decent decisions, I welcome it.

Hammerfists
03-23-2010, 03:48 PM
Great post mero i look forward to your next post.

Notavi
03-24-2010, 02:07 AM
More hardcore players who want a challenge should be given that challenge, but should they also be given entirely new encounter mechanics (which requires significant design and testing time) that the huge majority of the population will never see? Personally, I think not.

I think they should, for the simple reason that just buffing the damage \ hit-points alone is not an effective way to keep content challenging for those who have learned it. They need to add new elements to the encounter, something new that must be practiced and managed, or even something requiring the fight itself be approached entirely differently.

Just buffing the boss a bit is lazy, and does little to keep the content interesting.

And, as has been pointed out, players are getting more experienced with the game. The size of the community that can attempt hard modes will increase as time goes on. It would be a mistake to skimp on this part of the game just because there aren't enough people to attempt it yet.

Darksend
03-24-2010, 03:23 AM
The stat changes are not what people need to be focusing on, we need to make sure blizzard continues the trend they set with loot in ICC (which I saw the flaw in not doing even as far back as maly and 3d sarth and KT being higher ilvl where this all really started). If you are going to provide hard mode higher iLvl items, EVERY SINGLE SLOT must have a hard mode option in addition to a normal mode option. This was only a problem until TOC when the drops became mirrored instead of creating unique items like the 3 previously mention encounters and ulduar hard modes, but even TOC left itemization gaps for people who are in 10-man only guilds.

Take a loot at Ulduar and ToC itemization. Take leather and plate for example ( http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.2&filter=minle=239;maxle=239 http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.4&filter=minle=239;maxle=239 ). Right away we see a DPS leather chest, but no DPS plate chest. The leather AP boots from 25 ulduar are 226 easy mode drops but the plate STR boots are 239, why? Plate get STR belt and bracers but leather only gets AP bracers, the belt 239 drop is SP. There is also no 239 leather helm period AP or SP. The same trend continued in TOC. I could not help think to myself "How does blizzard decide which items will be hard mode drops, who gets which slots as easy mode vs hard mode, why are there places where plate can choose to use a leather item because the leather is better but then have plate items where leather does not even have a hard mode drop at all in that slot, and how come some slots have two AP leather items one normal mode one hard mode, but another slot has NEITHER a 226 or 239 drop?" Obviously some of this only applies to ulduar where hard mode and normal mode items where not mirrors, but even in trial there were things like no 10 man leather AP belt or bracers (unless you count the crafted bracers) but 10 and 25 both dropped leather AP boots.

When it came time to make my ICC best-in-slot list, the very first thing I noticed what that there were 8 leather AP items, not a single case of 2 AP items in the same slot and not a single slot without a drop, in both 10 and 25. Meaning without ever running a 10 man you could have a full 8-pc leather set, or for 10 man guilds you never had to run a 25 man to fill in an itemization gap. I checked this for almost every spec (8 mp5 pieces vs 8 spirit pieces vs 8 haste/crit pieces with no regen, 8 leather spellpower pieces vs 8 leather AP pieces, 8 plate crit/arp etc pieces vs 8 def/dodge/parry vs 8 spellpower plate). Every single spec had a full 8 pieces of dropped loot in addition to the badge vendor and set items and crafted items. This is what needed to happen in ulduar and did not, and it caused a lot of problems when gear inflation started. People would be forced to wear a 10 man normal mode for an entire tier because it is the only item in that slot that dropped for your spec that entire tier.

They did acknowledge they made a mistake this expansion but then continued to inflate it even more, which really leaves me very little hope for cata. The 10 normal mode ICC loot should have been 245, with less sockets than the 245 trial hard mode 10 man loot. NOTHING in 10 normal ICC should have been an upgrade over 25 hard mode trial 258 gear, but this was not the case. I understand they want the playing field to be evened out but what was the point of doing hard modes if the 10 man normal loot from the next tier is going to be just as good.

I could care less about what they do to the stats, that really has no impact what-so-ever in today's game of higher iLvl=better. You cannot have whole tiers that completely miss some slots it just sets those classes back way to much until the next tier. if they cannot fix item inflation, and if they do not continue to provide 8 drops per spec in both 10 and 25 (have I mentioned how happy I am blizzard finally did this after seeing the itemization gaps in TOC and ulduar?)

p.s. I rewrote this 3 times so I probably repeated myself some but to me this is one of the biggest problems with the game right now.

TLDR: When it comes to hard mode itemization, blizzard needs to continue to mirror the normal mode drops on hard mode so the same item slots/armor class drop off the hard mode as the normal mode (unlike 3d sarth and Ulduar hard modes which not only created unique drops for hard modes but in almost every case those drops where for armor slots/armor class that did not drop off the normal mode) and continue to provide every spec with a viable 8-pieces of offset loot in both the 10 and 25 man versions of every tier like they finally did in ICC. It is unacceptable to for a strict 10 man raider to run a 25-man because plate tank bracers only drop in 25 and there are no 10 man plate tanking bracers in that tier. Likewise the drama caused by trying to fit a strict 25 man guild into 10-mans because of itemization gaps should be avoided as well.

Bodasafa
03-24-2010, 08:34 AM
I would agree with you Darksend that their needs to be an item for every slot on normal/heroic for 10 and 25. However I think they could do one better by making the items unique, as in not a replica with an extra socket and a hair more stats.

If they like the complete replica of normal carrying over to heroic I'm fine with that, but I would like to see some of the encounters change drastically (like they did in Ulduar) instead of be almost exactly the same with maybe 1 new ability added and more damage. Same goes for the loot. The current model as is makes heroic versions very uninteresting in my opinion.

Bashal
03-24-2010, 09:26 AM
I would agree with you Darksend that their needs to be an item for every slot on normal/heroic for 10 and 25. However I think they could do one better by making the items unique, as in not a replica with an extra socket and a hair more stats.

If they like the complete replica of normal carrying over to heroic I'm fine with that, but I would like to see some of the encounters change drastically (like they did in Ulduar) instead of be almost exactly the same with maybe 1 new ability added and more damage. Same goes for the loot. The current model as is makes heroic versions very uninteresting in my opinion.

I think it depends on how heroic modes are meant to be used.

With things like OS 3D, it was just a way to get a little bonus gear. You weren't really meant to do it exclusively that way. With that kind of arrangement, they just need to make sure there's 1 piece that drops that is useful for each class and spec, rather than a complete set of gear for each class and spec.

With things like heroic TOC10 and 25, where you can flip all the bosses into hard mode, or ICC where you get to pick and choose (but could theoretically just flip them all to hard mode as if there was no choice) I agree that the model should be to be able to just farm it in hard mode exclusively (if you are up for it), and be able to collect complete sets of gear without having to farm the other modes to fill in itemization gaps in the loot tables.

Similarly, as was mentioned, there should be no gaps in the normal modes either, making it unnecessary to farm 10's if you are able to do 25's -- unless, of course, you want to.

Bodasafa
03-24-2010, 09:31 AM
Linear progression was broken in this expansion.

A Fresh 80 can skip Naxx, OS, EoE, Ulduar and go straight to ToC after grinding out enough triumphs through the LFD tool. People should be required to complete the the raid instances in order (if only one time) before being allowed to move to the next highest one.

In ICC you can toggle heroic bosses at will instead of being required to complete them in the correct order (more of an issue with lower spire since its not winged). That's just wrong IMO.

I hope linear progression comes back in Cata.

Bashal
03-24-2010, 10:08 AM
Linear progression was broken in this expansion.

It wasn't broken for the people who are progressing more or less in lockstep with the release of each tier of content.

For the folks who would get stalled somewhere, or are new to the game and come in late in the expansion, expecting them to progress linearly is a bit much to ask. It also makes it easier for a guild that is looking to recruit to find suitably geared applicants, and it also makes it easier to play catch-up if you take a break.

This way, guilds don't have to farm old content over and over if they wind up having to gear some new guildies. I seem to recall a post or two somewhere about what hell it was to have to endlessly farm molten core....

Bodasafa
03-24-2010, 04:00 PM
It wasn't broken for the people who are progressing more or less in lockstep with the release of each tier of content.

For the folks who would get stalled somewhere, or are new to the game and come in late in the expansion, expecting them to progress linearly is a bit much to ask. It also makes it easier for a guild that is looking to recruit to find suitably geared applicants, and it also makes it easier to play catch-up if you take a break.

This way, guilds don't have to farm old content over and over if they wind up having to gear some new guildies. I seem to recall a post or two somewhere about what hell it was to have to endlessly farm molten core....

I think you missed an important point from my post. I said:


People should be required to complete the the raid instances in order (if only one time) before being allowed to move to the next highest one.

Honestly requiring people to complete the content in order ONCE should not be a huge deal, it should actually be cool, especially for all the people crying I want to see the content. It also gives blizzard a little bit better return on their investment. Perhaps people like the instance and want to do it some more, perhaps they (god forbid) actually learn something about raiding from it.

Darksend
03-24-2010, 04:47 PM
It wasn't broken for the people who are progressing more or less in lockstep with the release of each tier of content.

For the folks who would get stalled somewhere, or are new to the game and come in late in the expansion, expecting them to progress linearly is a bit much to ask. It also makes it easier for a guild that is looking to recruit to find suitably geared applicants, and it also makes it easier to play catch-up if you take a break.

This way, guilds don't have to farm old content over and over if they wind up having to gear some new guildies. I seem to recall a post or two somewhere about what hell it was to have to endlessly farm molten core....

Yes but even the worst player can pug 4 weeks in a row and get a DBW and 4pc 264 gear and guilds now have no way of knowing good players from bad players. The ammount of applicants we get who do not even make it through the first week of their trial while being miles ahead gear wise than some of our better raiders simply because even though we killed DB the first week ICC was out we have only seen a single DBW and we probably DE about 75% of our hard mode drops also because they are just not upgrades. This not only wastes our time and that apps time but also wastes that apps money. We have absolutely zero way besides WMO and WoL to judge player skill before they transfer because gear is handed out so freely now and most pugs clear everything except sind and putricide.

Flexthetroll
03-24-2010, 06:14 PM
Yes but even the worst player can pug 4 weeks in a row and get a DBW and 4pc 264 gear and guilds now have no way of knowing good players from bad players. The ammount of applicants we get who do not even make it through the first week of their trial while being miles ahead gear wise than some of our better raiders simply because even though we killed DB the first week ICC was out we have only seen a single DBW and we probably DE about 75% of our hard mode drops also because they are just not upgrades. This not only wastes our time and that apps time but also wastes that apps money. We have absolutely zero way besides WMO and WoL to judge player skill before they transfer because gear is handed out so freely now and most pugs clear everything except sind and putricide.

Your guild turn over could be for many diffrent reasons, the player might have not liked the way your guild was set up. Mabe didn't like some of your other raid guild memebers/officers, or mabe it was a bad day for him (play wise). There are many other reasons then i have listed of why a person would not stay in a guild for long. My experiance is that alot of people stay in a guild because of the people not progression.

Kazeyonoma
03-24-2010, 10:49 PM
He's not saying they leave, i think he's saying he kicks them out because they don't meet his guild's standards.

Flexthetroll
03-24-2010, 11:04 PM
ah my bad, i personal would never transfer to find a raid guild; but mabe other peoples servers dont have many. =/

Darksend
03-24-2010, 11:11 PM
Correct kaz. As lore said, player skill means just as much as gear. When someone raids with us as a trial member, there are very clear distinctions between those who came from a progressed guild that they were a top raider in and the guild fell apart, verses someone who thinks they are a hot-shot stuck in a guild that is holding them back and they think they deserve a more progressed guild, verses people who very clearly got lucky with winning roles in pugs and even though they may have killed every encounter in ICC that is more a testament to getting into good pugs than their individual skill.

Sure anyone can pull 10K DPS on a fight like patchwerk but throw in things like dodging malleable goos and collapsing for and spreading out the spores properly on festergut hard mode or moving out of the fire on blood queen and those 10K dps patchwerk parses die in the first 30 seconds of the fight even if every single piece of gear they have is iLvl 277. Is it unfair to ask an applicant who has never killed 25 man lich king to raid every single hard mode his first week in a new guild, no because we will probably never do normal modes again, we are a hard mode guild and we expect our apps to be up to that level. We explain every mechanic, give them ample time to ask questions if they do not understand something about the encounter, and then to have them die to something and say "O I DID NOT KNOW THAT HAPPENS IN THIS FIGHT" and it happens from people in full 264 gear and you just scratch your head and ask how.

Gear =/= Skill but skill can most definitely make up for bad luck with drops (to an extent)

Which I think is what lore is getting at as a whole in this video

Bodasafa
03-25-2010, 08:33 AM
ah my bad, i personal would never transfer to find a raid guild; but mabe other peoples servers dont have many. =/

Its not a matter of servers lacking raiding guilds. Every server has tons of them. People transfer servers because they want to get into better guilds. Perhaps there are only 1-3 really good guilds on their server and they are not taking applications for that persons class/role. If they want to move into a more progressed guild, a server transfer may be the right move.

It all depends what kind of raiding experience your looking for.

Mwawka
03-28-2010, 10:40 AM
Sure anyone can pull 10K DPS on a fight like patchwerk but throw in things like dodging malleable goos and collapsing for and spreading out the spores properly on festergut hard mode or moving out of the fire on blood queen and those 10K dps patchwerk parses die in the first 30 seconds of the fight even if every single piece of gear they have is iLvl 277. Is it unfair to ask an applicant who has never killed 25 man lich king to raid every single hard mode his first week in a new guild, no because we will probably never do normal modes again, we are a hard mode guild and we expect our apps to be up to that level. We explain every mechanic, give them ample time to ask questions if they do not understand something about the encounter, and then to have them die to something and say "O I DID NOT KNOW THAT HAPPENS IN THIS FIGHT" and it happens from people in full 264 gear and you just scratch your head and ask how.



I agree that you can't judge a player by their gear anymore, but you also have to understand that everyone learns in different ways. Some people can watch video and listen to descriptions forever, but until they actually see the mechanics and experience them just won't get it. Once they've seen something once though and screwed it up, they may never make the same mistake again. Being that you are a hard mode guild, I guess it is certainly your decision how much room you give new raiders to prove themselves, but you have to have had raiders who your first impression of was 'they will never make it' who have actually ended up proving themselves.

Eltoronegro
03-29-2010, 02:03 AM
These kinds of topics have a special place in my heart. There are always the cries of "Too easy!", "Now anyone can do it!", and the obligatory "I walked to school, in the snow, uphill both ways!" complaints. The MMO genre continues to evolve based on lessons learned to truly become a better gaming experience. Yes we all have our equally painful and enjoyable moments that we love to reminisce about and say, "Remember when…”. My first MMO was EQ, the game I loved to hate. I could tell you about things called "hell levels", endless corpse runs, top guilds locking lower guilds out of content, 72 hour quest MOB spawns, hours of XP grinding just to get that last bubble to level only to get trained at the zone line, die, lose that level, and have less XP than when the night started. This is what all MMOs were like prior to WoW. On one hand I could get on my high horse and talk about how all you kids have it easy today and you don't know what a real MMO is bla bla bla; OR I could suggest that EQ, as great as it was in its day, had significant design flaws. The game was grindy, the penalties too harsh, and heinous griefing was an every day event.

I started playing WoW in 2004 and I was reinvigorated about the MMO genre. The pace of combat was so much quicker, leveling was quicker but still rewarding, the breadcrumb and theme park approach to questing was fun and exciting, getting “trained” by other players was gone, instancing eliminated guild lock outs of content, and on and on the fresh and innovative approach to MMO design went. Blizzard learned from EQ and other legacy MMOs. They figured out a way to make the game more accessible and enjoyable to a record breaking player base. Overnight the MMO player base for any one game jumped from a few 100K to millions! How...? Why...? Dare I say it was because they made the genre, their game, easier?! But that's exactly what they did. WoW was easier. WoW IS easier, compared to EQ. Easier is a relative term. Easier doesn't mean bad, yet that's exactly how most of these "the sky is falling" posts seem to imply. In the case of Wow, “easier” meant a smarter game design and innovative approaches. They took the painful lessons learned from MUDs, UO, EQ, and a slew of other first and second generation MMOs and made a better, yet easier game.

And so it is true within WoW. I was there on day one. I remember the server issues at launch. Anyone remember when realms were listed by time zone and the player based freaked out? My first class was a hunter; the last class developed and didn't even have a talent tree. I hated PvP in MMOs, but I fell in love WoW’s version of PvP when battlegrounds were introduced. I'm not immune to complaining myself about changes. I for one loved Vanilla WoW PvP and can't stand Arenas, but I keep my complaints tempered by knowing this game has overwhelmingly evolved for the better; maybe not perfectly and without mistakes, but WoW today is a much better game than WoW in November 2004.

Is the game getting "easier"? YES! But once again that does not mean "bad". We as a player base are smarter, more knowledgeable about encounters, gearing, speccing, etc.. Only 1% or less of the player base is truly in a world class guild. Most of us find ourselves in capable guilds that given the time and effort will clear much of the "end game" content. But remember, we are all balancing our own ever evolving lives, and when you bring together 30, 40, or more individuals from around the country or the world, each with their own life, it does become a challenge to bring everyone together to achieve a common goal on any given night; yet we do it time and time again. As WoW has evolved and become "easier", e.g. better, more and more players and guilds have become capable of enjoying the challenges and content developed by Blizzard. That top 1% will still rip through content at break neck speed. As for the rest of us, we'll get there soon enough; and if a lesson learned is applied by the developers in the form of a patch, a "nerf", or a buff that makes the game "easier", e.g. better, then so be it.

Razzdango
04-05-2010, 04:56 PM
These kinds of topics have a special place in my heart. There are always the cries of "Too easy!", "Now anyone can do it!", and the obligatory "I walked to school, in the snow, uphill both ways!" complaints. The MMO genre continues to evolve based on lessons learned to truly become a better gaming experience. Yes we all have our equally painful and enjoyable moments that we love to reminisce about and say, "Remember when…”. My first MMO was EQ, the game I loved to hate. I could tell you about things called "hell levels", endless corpse runs, top guilds locking lower guilds out of content, 72 hour quest MOB spawns, hours of XP grinding just to get that last bubble to level only to get trained at the zone line, die, lose that level, and have less XP than when the night started. This is what all MMOs were like prior to WoW. On one hand I could get on my high horse and talk about how all you kids have it easy today and you don't know what a real MMO is bla bla bla; OR I could suggest that EQ, as great as it was in its day, had significant design flaws. The game was grindy, the penalties too harsh, and heinous griefing was an every day event.

I started playing WoW in 2004 and I was reinvigorated about the MMO genre. The pace of combat was so much quicker, leveling was quicker but still rewarding, the breadcrumb and theme park approach to questing was fun and exciting, getting “trained” by other players was gone, instancing eliminated guild lock outs of content, and on and on the fresh and innovative approach to MMO design went. Blizzard learned from EQ and other legacy MMOs. They figured out a way to make the game more accessible and enjoyable to a record breaking player base. Overnight the MMO player base for any one game jumped from a few 100K to millions! How...? Why...? Dare I say it was because they made the genre, their game, easier?! But that's exactly what they did. WoW was easier. WoW IS easier, compared to EQ. Easier is a relative term. Easier doesn't mean bad, yet that's exactly how most of these "the sky is falling" posts seem to imply. In the case of Wow, “easier” meant a smarter game design and innovative approaches. They took the painful lessons learned from MUDs, UO, EQ, and a slew of other first and second generation MMOs and made a better, yet easier game.

And so it is true within WoW. I was there on day one. I remember the server issues at launch. Anyone remember when realms were listed by time zone and the player based freaked out? My first class was a hunter; the last class developed and didn't even have a talent tree. I hated PvP in MMOs, but I fell in love WoW’s version of PvP when battlegrounds were introduced. I'm not immune to complaining myself about changes. I for one loved Vanilla WoW PvP and can't stand Arenas, but I keep my complaints tempered by knowing this game has overwhelmingly evolved for the better; maybe not perfectly and without mistakes, but WoW today is a much better game than WoW in November 2004.

Is the game getting "easier"? YES! But once again that does not mean "bad". We as a player base are smarter, more knowledgeable about encounters, gearing, speccing, etc.. Only 1% or less of the player base is truly in a world class guild. Most of us find ourselves in capable guilds that given the time and effort will clear much of the "end game" content. But remember, we are all balancing our own ever evolving lives, and when you bring together 30, 40, or more individuals from around the country or the world, each with their own life, it does become a challenge to bring everyone together to achieve a common goal on any given night; yet we do it time and time again. As WoW has evolved and become "easier", e.g. better, more and more players and guilds have become capable of enjoying the challenges and content developed by Blizzard. That top 1% will still rip through content at break neck speed. As for the rest of us, we'll get there soon enough; and if a lesson learned is applied by the developers in the form of a patch, a "nerf", or a buff that makes the game "easier", e.g. better, then so be it.

Easier does not mean better. Your examples of the game becoming "better" over time are issues dealing with server stability not with content. The content can be much harder and SHOULD be much harder in my opinion. There should be adequate risk vs. reward and right now there is far to much reward for the risk involved. To prove your point about easy=better I will say this. They can make the game better (for me that means go back to the days of vanilla and BC and find a nice mix in between) and I will keep my account going. If they make it easier (in the way they did WotLK when you can log on and do tasks that involve no risk and get handed large rewards) then i will cancel my subscription for good and wait for SW:ToR very patiently but with excitement. Easier doe not equal better.

Hammerfists
04-05-2010, 09:58 PM
The thing that deflated your point for me was that you had to put in that you will quit if things dont improve. This is more drama than anyone cares for in these boards nor should it be used as an exclamation of your point. If you want to quit thats between you and your guild but im here to shoot ideas and learn somethings i never thought of before.

Im looking forward to what Cataclysm has in store, so far things being floated around have piqued my interest. We wont know how things pan out till we are playing Cataclysm since design always shifts when a small player base (testers) turn into a large player base. Normal/Hard mode wasnt even an idea till Lich King came out, so expect surprises.

Flexthetroll
04-29-2010, 02:46 PM
Easier does not mean better. Your examples of the game becoming "better" over time are issues dealing with server stability not with content. The content can be much harder and SHOULD be much harder in my opinion. There should be adequate risk vs. reward and right now there is far to much reward for the risk involved. To prove your point about easy=better I will say this. They can make the game better (for me that means go back to the days of vanilla and BC and find a nice mix in between) and I will keep my account going. If they make it easier (in the way they did WotLK when you can log on and do tasks that involve no risk and get handed large rewards) then i will cancel my subscription for good and wait for SW:ToR very patiently but with excitement. Easier doe not equal better.

bye. /wave

Trogdorrior
04-29-2010, 03:02 PM
There will always be those few people that honestly believe that Blizzard sat down and said, "Let's make this game for Mr. Smith, and if other people like it, that's pretty cool." The reality is the opposite. Blizzard sat down and said, "Let's make this a game for the average players, and if Mr. Smith likes it as well, that's pretty cool."

WoW will continue to evolve because it is a game that is driven by the majority of the player base. I for one am not getting any younger. I remember when dying halfway though world 6-1 of Marior Bro's meant going all the way back to the beginning. I swallowed it because I didn't have an option. Then games evolved. Suddenly they invented these crazy things called checkpoints. Yes, I think that made games better. I don't feel as though I'm cheating when I return to the star post in a level of Sonic the Hedgehog.

To be honest, ragequitting because you don't like the changes coming in a game doesn't bother me in the least. This is simply because I won't even know you're gone. It's no offense, but in a server of thousands of people, a couple grumpy quitters isn't going to upset the balance and effect my gameplay experience.

I agree with 99% of everything Blizzard has done with their games since the moment I played WarCraft way back in the day. No other company has their ear closer to the heartbeat of their playerbase.

Like it has been said over and over againm "easy" is a relative term. Yes WoW is becoming more accessable, and that is a very, very good thing.

kalegek
12-07-2010, 12:03 PM
I think some Wrath raiders are in a sense cheated out of becoming capable raiders, AoEing your way throught Heroics and Naxx aren't giving you nearly as much experiance as TBC Heroics did.

On top of that DBM practically steers for you, I mean I know I can play w/o the alerts, like when it wasn't updated for new wings, but others may not have developed their own raid awareness.

a raid is still a raid and a dungeon is still a dungeon