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View Full Version : Halls of Reflection and Cognitive Bias



Ajire
03-17-2010, 07:16 AM
Explain something to me: Why does all pugs thinks that handling the first part of Halls of Reflection out in the open is such a terrible thing?

I'm a fairly decent tank to put it my self and I've had my fair share of wipes in HoR owing to the fact that cramping everyone up in the alcove behind Falric basically leaves the party at the mercy of pure luck: A mage and a priest doing their AoE things at the same time and the healer is fried. A split-seconds loss of aggro on a mercenary or footman yields same result.

Moving out in the open gives the party room to maneuver. You have a much better view of what's going on and can easily pick up stray mobs before they endanger the clothies. If you have a partymember that's able (eg Ret paladin or priest) - and willing, not to forget - to CC the Rifleman or mage, it's simply icing to the cake.

But recently I've had people in pugs simply leaving the group in protest because I refuse to move into the alcove, claiming that it is by far easiest way to do it and every other approach will end in a terrible wipefest.

I reckon this is what in psychology is called a cognitive bias: You do things the way you've always done it and forgets that there may be another and perhaps even better way to accomplish the objective.

But I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter: Which is the better way to handle HoR: Alcove or open and is it ultimately up to the tank to decide the tactic against the opinion of the rest of the group?

Gehn
03-17-2010, 07:22 AM
I personally like the alcove. Groups up the first two mobs for a Thunderclap and I can taunt/Heroic throw the others. I move out after the first couple mobs are under control.

The alcove strategy creates a higher probability that at least two mobs will be grouped together for AE threat abilities.

Bashal
03-17-2010, 07:28 AM
The first time I did HoR, people hadn't figured out the alcove strat (or at least most weren't aware of it). We used the altar in the middle of the room to LoS adds.

It was messy as hell. We got through it but it took about 4 wipes. I'm sure it would have worked better if the tank had been more vigilant about keeping adds off people, but with stuff coming at you from all directions, it can go bad quickly if the tank doesn't pick stuff up fast.

Skyborn
03-17-2010, 07:44 AM
I love the alcove. I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle wrangling all the adds that spawn in the last 2-3 waves (seems like there are 6 or 7 from all sides of the room and several ranged/casters + shadowstepping rogues). The open air technique might work during the first five waves or so, but after that it because too choatic.

The alcove can be dicey if your group doesn't follow the strict kill order of Priests > Mercenary > Mages > Soldiers > Riflemen... but if they do and you can keep the casters interrupted and the Mercenary focused on you its a very smooth run normally.

Ajire
03-17-2010, 07:47 AM
I personally like the alcove. Groups up the first two mobs for a Thunderclap and I can taunt/Heroic throw the others. I move out after the first couple mobs are under control.

The alcove strategy creates a higher probability that at least two mobs will be grouped together for AE threat abilities.

The only two mobs that doesn't move into melee by default is the mage and the rifleman. If you LoS pull them into the alcove and then move out again, they'll just stay there and you really haven't accomplished anything.

In turn the alcove strategy leaves you with absolutely no margin for error; if you pull the footmen in melee range of your clothies, they are sitting ducks.

I usually ask my party to stand well back in the entrance, while I run to the center. Then there is a good chance that the mobs will run for me as they spawn, and I have room and vision to pick up those that doesn't. As for the mage, and rifleman, Well I have little trouble of moving remaining footmen to them, after the critical mob is dead. It works just fine, if the dps has the brains to keep off them in the meantime.

Loremaster Roht
03-17-2010, 07:49 AM
I wouldn't say the cognitive bias you're looking for isn't people not wanting to do the waves out in the open, it's far more likely to be people having to do HoR at all. The alcove LoS method is probably the easiest way to simulate a simple tank & spank (AoE) situation, and not doing this is probably the excuse people are looking for to get out of the place.

HoR is an instance which seems specifically designed as a response for everyone overgearing an instance and just mindlessly AoE'ing everything down. It also has to do in part with people complaining the game is too easy, and within the realm of heroics it's hard not to disagree. But as the old saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for... because you just might get it". We asked for harder instances, Blizz gave us one in the form of HoR and people are regretting it (or in denial).


I've tried both methods myself, and I find the out in the out in the open method to be FAR easier (on my warrior tank at least, haven't tried it with my DK). The alcove involves a lot of cramped camera angles, and combined with the colour palette of the instance and the partial transparancy of the mobs.... it's damn near impossible to figure out what's going on. It's pure chaos in there, you have no idea which mobs you don't have aggro on. Moving out does mean the pick-up is more of a mess, but the actual fighting can be managed from there. Not to mention you don't have to worry so much about the one idiotic DPS being slow in getting back in the corner.

But once again, I'd say the bias is people not wanting to do the instance at all. It's a combination of being both afraid and lazy that they actually have to think about what they're doing in that instance, and most people are just looking for an out. Even with a great group, wiping in here is still possible, and people really don't want to wipe at all these days. Fortunately (or unfortunately?) for me, I've been around long enough and through the vanilla and TBC phases of WoW. Wiping is a fact of life.... and some people don't really understand that right now.

Ajire
03-17-2010, 07:55 AM
I love the alcove. I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle wrangling all the adds that spawn in the last 2-3 waves (seems like there are 6 or 7 from all sides of the room and several ranged/casters + shadowstepping rogues). The open air technique might work during the first five waves or so, but after that it because too choatic.

"Might work"? Am I to take that as you have never actually tried? :)

(And btw: there can never spawn more that one mob of each type besides the footmen: So that's one of each mage, mecanary, rifleman, priest + 1-2 footmens)


The alcove can be dicey if your group doesn't follow the strict kill order of Priests > Mercenary > Mages > Soldiers > Riflemen... but if they do and you can keep the casters interrupted and the Mercenary focused on you its a very smooth run normally.

You always need a strickt kill-order, though, I've found that Priests > Mercenary > Riflemen > Mages > Soldiers, to be the most effective for the open approach. You need to get rid of that pesky rifleman asap.

Skyborn
03-17-2010, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I've never actually tried the open air approach. Between waves do you tell your party mates to run back to the entrance or do they group up in the middle somewhere?

woodyman
03-17-2010, 08:02 AM
i have run Hor HC alot since it was available as both a warrior tank and arms DPS and lets say out of 50 runs i have seen the healer gimped 10 times at least from the alcove method and not once from tankin just inside the front door.

couple that with the chaos and bad dps that comes with standing in the alcove and running out into "right where is everything" and i personally think the alcove idea is more of a comfort blanket

tankin just inside the door everyone can see what is where and act early on it. as long as the tank or someone keeps the mage busy with a cc or stun i have personally found out in the open easier and more succesfull every time.

Maybe its luck of the draw but those are the facts

Gehn
03-17-2010, 08:07 AM
The only two mobs that doesn't move into melee by default is the mage and the rifleman. If you LoS pull them into the alcove and then move out again, they'll just stay there and you really haven't accomplished anything.

You are correct. If the first two mobs are ranged, they stay there. But that does not mean I have not accomplished anything. I have established initial agro w/o having to use a taunt. I also have a good chance to either Shield Slam or Devastate one/both depending on composition of the other mobs running in, in turn; creating enough agro to probably hold through a burndown on either the priest or mage by the dps.


In turn the alcove strategy leaves you with absolutely no margin for error; if you pull the footmen in melee range of your clothies, they are sitting ducks.

Pulling the footmen in range of the clothies is not an issue at all. They have no cleave attack, only a shield bash. As I move away from the alcove after initial agro, the healer is out of range of that attack.

Really, you have your opinion. And that is fine. If your tactic works, why attempt to change it?
But it seems you have realized that your tactic goes against the grain of the way most people play.

Ajire
03-17-2010, 08:14 AM
I wouldn't say the cognitive bias you're looking for isn't people not wanting to do the waves out in the open, it's far more likely to be people having to do HoR at all. The alcove LoS method is probably the easiest way to simulate a simple tank & spank (AoE) situation, and not doing this is probably the excuse people are looking for to get out of the place.

A valid point. Personnaly I love HoR. I love the thrill of the challange. Other heroics are the same mobs in the same places, the pull is handled the same time every day and the most exciting event of the day is a ninja-pulling dps.


HoR is an instance which seems specifically designed as a response for everyone overgearing an instance and just mindlessly AoE'ing everything down. It also has to do in part with people complaining the game is too easy, and within the realm of heroics it's hard not to disagree. But as the old saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for... because you just might get it". We asked for harder instances, Blizz gave us one in the form of HoR and people are regretting it (or in denial).

Quite so. I know a handful of people that outright refuse to do HoR as they find the "Loot quality/Trouble"-ratio to be too small.




But once again, I'd say the bias is people not wanting to do the instance at all. It's a combination of being both afraid and lazy that they actually have to think about what they're doing in that instance, and most people are just looking for an out. Even with a great group, wiping in here is still possible, and people really don't want to wipe at all these days. Fortunately (or unfortunately?) for me, I've been around long enough and through the vanilla and TBC phases of WoW. Wiping is a fact of life.... and some people don't really understand that right now.

Seconded!

Theotherone
03-17-2010, 08:31 AM
Did it yesterday on my hunter with a Bear tank who used the entrance way strategy, which I prefer, and it went real smooth; after one dps left saying entry way could not work. Tanking I prefer the entry way. What the bear did was ask the dps to say back and not attack anything until he grabbed rounded the adds up - run went smooth as silk - both the pally and I doing over 5k dps helped a lot too. But the entry way makes so much more sense, in being able to see the field.

stgeorge
03-17-2010, 08:36 AM
Blizzard used to have a policy of "appropriate rewards for appropriate risk/effort" - that went away with this heroic badge dropping business. Why would any rational thinking human being put themselves through HOR when they give such poor rewards (3 triumph badges) compared to the vastly easier other instances? It worked briefly with 232 items, but once people get their items, it's not worth running any longer.

HOR should be dropping 1 frost token per boss, then nobody would complain since the reward is worth the extra bother. Same deal for Naxx & Ulduar, why would anyone fight raid bosses for a lousy triumph when a heroic boss with 300k health gives the same thing. Naxx & Ulduar bosses should drop an extra triumph badge to reflect their additional effort.

Ajire
03-17-2010, 08:41 AM
You are correct. If the first two mobs are ranged, they stay there. But that does not mean I have not accomplished anything. I have established initial agro w/o having to use a taunt. I also have a good chance to either Shield Slam or Devastate one/both depending on composition of the other mobs running in, in turn; creating enough agro to probably hold through a burndown on either the priest or mage by the dps.

Okay, there may be difference in how warriors and paladins handle this. I've never played warrior and I shan't claim that you cannot generate that kind of threat in a burst, but for a paladin, I often find continuous threat generation to be a must, while the dps is burning them down.




Pulling the footmen in range of the clothies is not an issue at all. They have no cleave attack, only a shield bash. As I move away from the alcove after initial agro, the healer is out of range of that attack.

My concern is the case where you loose aggro: you have no time to pick it back up, because there is a convenient prey right in front of them. Perhaps this is not an issue with the high burst-threat of the warriors thunderclap or shockwave, but for the Threat-over-time aoe abilities; paladins Consecrate and the Death Knight's D&D, this happens alarmingly often, especially right at the initial aggro. I play mage also, so I should know.




Really, you have your opinion. And that is fine. If your tactic works, why attempt to change it?

I'm not


But it seems you have realized that your tactic goes against the grain of the way most people play.

And I'm now seeking to understand why it is so.

woodyman
03-17-2010, 08:44 AM
its strange how "sense of achievment" means nothing anymore
id rather do hor hc 10 times over an risk the odd wipe than do something i know that there is no risk to whatsoever.

a little bit of me inside believes cata may just bring us a big slap in the face for being so lazy an make everyone cry cos we had it so easy for so long.
hehe

Fledern
03-17-2010, 10:19 AM
Tanking in the open requires your party members to actually use what's inside their cranium. 90% of the pugs i went into HoR with seem to lack the ability. Alcove method allows me to take a strong hand in controlling if the rest dont play along.

I have tried both and i still prefer the alcove, for the above reason.

As for the cognitive part, i'd say Roht is spot on

Mammoth
03-17-2010, 01:52 PM
As Fledern said the out-in-the-open technique requires DPS and a healer that play along. I've done HoR that way on my druid in a guild run and I prefer it. DPS burns down the priest while I round up everything else and the healer makes sure to not get between me and the melee mobs until I smack them. Works great with a smart group. No way in hell would I try in with a PUG. Heck, I don't trust PUGs to properly pull off the alcove strategy and remain pleasantly surprised every time I find a PUG that can.

Bodasafa
03-17-2010, 03:02 PM
The simple solution is this:

A) If your doing a random and HoR pops, use the alcove. More often than not you will have 1-4 complete morons in your group that will cause a wipe if you do it in the open and its not worth the 10 minutes of chatting about how x person dose it this way, just pull already.
B) If you want the challenge of doing it in the open, go with a pre-made group of friends or guild mates.
C) Don't do HoR.

You can go over it a million ways from sunday and the above still breaks it down to the 3 base points. Its a heroic, get in , get out, get on with your life.

Mačl
03-18-2010, 04:50 AM
As a warrior tank I loathe the alcove strat. It only takes one healer not to play ball and everything falls apart. LoS is back you have to move out of colourful sh!t the mages/huntars tend to drop on top of you. It doesn't work. The mages/hunters SEEK distance.

As a priest healer I loathe the alcove strat. Everything is standing in some kind of AoE so my shackles are useless at best and I have to deal with one extra mob doing unnecessary damage. While everybody stands in the AE. That's the best case. Worst case is I have to leave the alcove because somebody ran out and I can't heal him. So there I am. Standing in a tight spot, no chance to shackle, not being able to decurse poisons and keeping everybody alive while half of the group stands in some kind of AoE because it is considered a strategy.

That's as much of a strategy as slowly walking towards enemy riflemen. Or doing the fandango to clear a mine field.

Ajire
03-18-2010, 06:19 AM
Thank you for all your replies, they have been helpful.

It seems to me that most of you actually prefer the out-in-the-open approach, but find this significantly more challenging in PuGs "incapable of using what's inside their cranium" (nicely phrased, Fledern - lmao) , which I'm sorry to agree often is the case with PuGs.

I would however still argue that it is significantly easier to keep things under control out in the open, even with no-brain PuGs; it may require a bit more running from mob to mob and keeping taunt and righteous defense on constant cooldown, but hey, everyone is still alive when the dust settles.

As for the question of why people blankly refuse to do it in the open and will even leave the groups if that is what is in store, Roth touched lightly on it, and had the point that the real issue is that people don't want to do the instance at all. stgeorge followed up with a point of HoR dropping ridiculous items compared to the challenge involved. I think these thoughts are quite interesting and will keep them in mind when dealing with troublesome HoR PuGs in the future :)

I was also pleased with Theotherone's account. Good to know that it's not just my foul smell that cause people to leave

Cheers

Ajire
03-18-2010, 06:31 AM
Yeah, I've never actually tried the open air approach. Between waves do you tell your party mates to run back to the entrance or do they group up in the middle somewhere?

Ideally, the ranged dps/healer doesn't move from the entrance at all; I try to keep the show in range of that spot. That's the whole virtue of the open approach - you give the ranged and the healer the range they need to do their thing. Sometimes they may have to move to get a shot on an awkwardly positioned rifleman or if the mage drops a flamestrike in there, but it's usually not a big issue.
But in such case, they may need a poke to move back before the next wave, yes.

Melee dps should also move back a bit.

Winnson
03-18-2010, 11:18 AM
I do like the alcove, but with the melee on one side and the ranged on the other. Stacking everyone on top of each other in the same place is definitely a luckfest to see if you can get past the first waves of mobs.

I've always wanted to try out in the open on my hunter, but tanks would never let me and when I make the chicken emote for too long instead of stacking in the corner I get kicked and go do an easy dungeon :)

Ajire
03-18-2010, 02:24 PM
This evening I was in HoR PuG with my mage and I actually managed to get a tank to try the out-in-the-open, after we'd wiped terribly on the 2nd wave whilst using the alcove.

Much to the suprise of the whole party, it went smoothly without a single death :)

Zallium
03-19-2010, 10:13 AM
Most people accept that strategy because you don't need as much coordination to do it. When you tank it in the open, as soon as the ranged mobs have a target, they will stop and cast/shoot. When they stop it will be well outside your aoe threat range. So then you have to do extra, unnecessary things to get threat on them/pull them in closer. Once you LOS all/most of the mobs to you and get some aoe threat, people should spread out like normal so not everyone is taking flamestrike damage. Then you just collapse back to the corner when the next wave comes.

Ajire
03-19-2010, 05:05 PM
Most people accept that strategy because you don't need as much coordination to do it. When you tank it in the open, as soon as the ranged mobs have a target, they will stop and cast/shoot. When they stop it will be well outside your aoe threat range.

Much like any other ranged mob would do, so deal with it in the same way?

(Incedently, the mage occationally freeze you to the ground which causes both her and the rifleman, if he is up, to run out of melee, so LoS pull or not, you may have to deal with mobs-at-range anyway)


So then you have to do extra, unnecessary things to get threat on them/pull them in closer.

unnecessary, perhaps - Extra things, absolutely not. Tactical awareness on how to deal with a caster mob at range should be at the fingertips of any tank. I do not find mobs-at-range particullary bothersome and I find that the extra things I might have to do is a small price for the advantages I've outlined in previous posts

Zallium
03-19-2010, 07:17 PM
By extra I meant something more that you wouldn't have to do, not something you normally don't do as a tank. For example, if I have a 5 mob pull and 2 are casters, the easiest way to get threat on all of them is TC/SW/DS. So if theres a LOS strategy that gets them all into melee range, I can hit all of them with those abilities. If I do that same pull a different way that causes me to have to use TC/SW/DS AND Heroic Throw at the caster to generate threat, the heroic throw is something extra/unnecessary. I could have used that global cooldown to generate more threat on other mobs.

The hardest part about the waves is the initial few seconds. That is why when you LOS and your able to get the rifleman, priest, and mage into melee range and generate some threat on them, it doesn't really matter what they do. Even if they freeze you and move to range, one or two aoe threat abilities should be enough to keep the healer from aggro'ing for the entire fight. It should also be enough to keep the DPS's light AOE from pulling aggro while their main damage is on the initial target.

uglybbtoo
03-19-2010, 11:38 PM
It doesn't matter if you do in open or in alcove the key to the whole thing is having smart dps that know how to wait a few seconds before unleashing hell. And there in lies the problem SMART DPS are a myth. Outside that you need a really good tank or a good tactic.

The alcove tactic groups up the mobs but more importantly stop the retard DPS dpsing them early and thats the key to it.

I am happy to do in the open if I know the group but with pugs always do alcove as 1 or 2 of them are going to be retards. Nothing like getting shadow stepped by the mercenary and being stunned while the dps and healer gets agro and die.

I love running with tanks on alts in here because they really understand the fight.

Ajire
03-20-2010, 04:36 AM
By extra I meant something more that you wouldn't have to do, not something you normally don't do as a tank. For example, if I have a 5 mob pull and 2 are casters, the easiest way to get threat on all of them is TC/SW/DS. So if theres a LOS strategy that gets them all into melee range, I can hit all of them with those abilities.

Very true - it's not that I have anything against LoS-pulls in general, I fully appriciate their value. But for HoR in particular, the LoS introduces significant disadvantages that I have identified as the prime causes for wipes when I've been in there both as tank and dps.


If I do that same pull a different way that causes me to have to use TC/SW/DS AND Heroic Throw at the caster to generate threat, the heroic throw is something extra/unnecessary. I could have used that global cooldown to generate more threat on other mobs.

Here is the way I handle such pull as a paladin:

Avengers Shield at one caster -> Move in melee of the other -> 96969

The first caster, silenced by Avenger's Shield with spec into Shield of the Templar, will move into melee and thus all mobs are gathered with no GCD wasted. I suppose the warrior equivalent is (Provided of course, that you specced into Gag Order EDIT: and Warbringer):

Heroic thow at one caster -> Charge at the other -> TC/SW/DS

Ajire
03-20-2010, 04:42 AM
The alcove tactic groups up the mobs but more importantly stop the retard DPS dpsing them early and thats the key to it.

I'm gonna have to disagree on this point. Retarded dps usually move out and begin to unload as soon as the tank has landed his first hit, that is, before all mobs are gathered.

The alcove tactic really requires strick kill order and disciplined dps.

Termx
03-20-2010, 09:51 PM
This is my problem doing heroic HoR as a Frost DK tank using the alcove tactic.

1. My view is limited. I can't see well of what mobs or who is coming around the corner. Worst part, if their is a hunter in the group, most have this big ass annoying pet that blocks my view when they stack on me and makes it hard to start building threat. These lost few seconds leads to step 2.
2. DPS is spread out and attacking random targets, but not what I target. In which case they all pull threat and since I'm a DK, we don't have an ability to random taunt multiply targets. DnD can only go so far, but it won't help if everyone continues beating on separate targets. Sure enough, we still get blamed for not providing enough threat, even those other player's actions are the cause for the loss threat to begin with.
3. Not everyone goes around the corner, but some stay in the center or be that one shaman that leaves totems out in the open.
4. Space is limited and makes it tough to move around to keep mobs from clipping through you and end up tanking from your rear. Rogues still seem to vanish behind you, even with your back to the wall.
5. Hardly anyone does any form of crowd control or decursing. Would help is someone removes those nasty poisons from the Rogue off of me.

My success has been in the open as I did when the instance was first release. The success with the alcove tactic has be 50/50, depending on the players I get grouped up with. Gear is never the issue. I had much success with people average geared that is willing to work together, instead of some elitist raider that is cocky and pushing me to do crazy pulls, just to speed it up...and if we wipe, it's all my fault of course.

Bigbad
03-21-2010, 05:30 AM
I always get claustrophobic in the alcove, but really tanking at the entrance is 10x easier for me. I just tell everyone to stay the fuck behind me and i'll pick up everything that comes our way, heroic throw on the mage or spellreflect and usually let the hunter mobs free untill the rest is under control.

woodyman
03-22-2010, 05:14 AM
I think both have advantages and disadvantages

The Los method simplifies the tanks job but with unruly dps is probably more likely to cause a wipe

The open method relies on the tank to take more control of the situation but ultimately is easier to see when an issue occurs...ie healer aggro etc and act on it quickly

Theotherone
03-22-2010, 01:51 PM
I've just reached the conclusion that there's nothing in there I want/need and it's just not worth 2 Frost. It gets the Occ treatment, "Leave party."

Clementine
03-23-2010, 11:01 AM
I can't really see a whole lot sometimes in the alcove. As a warrior, I like doing the trash mobs out in the open because I make damn sure Warbringer is used to it's fullest!

uglybbtoo
03-23-2010, 10:12 PM
This is my problem doing heroic HoR as a Frost DK tank using the alcove tactic.

1. My view is limited. I can't see well of what mobs or who is coming around the corner. Worst part, if their is a hunter in the group, most have this big ass annoying pet that blocks my view when they stack on me and makes it hard to start building threat. These lost few seconds leads to step 2.

.

The DPS and healer hides NOT YOU ... you want the agro .. as DK tank drop AOE on front of steps up and the concentrate on grabbing the casters and riflemen.

The rest is just like you were in the open.

Sonickat
03-25-2010, 08:12 AM
Well my friends and I have spent the last few nights running Heroic Halls of Reflection and we've tried a few different things here and I wanted to elaborate on the 'in the open' strategy at least from a Warriors perspective, which I feel is the tank with the hardest time tanking this particular script.

First and the most important thing that needs to be addressed weither your tanking in the aclove or out in the open is everyone including the healer has to know 'when' is appropriate to do things that generate threat and when it's not. Essentially once that "Incoming Wave" message comes up for the next wave everything needs to stop. No bandages, no mana or health pots, no potions, no elixirs, no sitting to eat or drink, nothing that will generate any aggro what so ever. For warriors with limited snap AE abilities this is important.

If you can get your group to do this the rest of this encounter is cake. First off there are only two mobs that wont run into melee range. The mage and the rifleman.

As a warrior save bloodrage until you see the new wave actually running towards your group then use it. The energy gain 9 times out of 10 will cause everything to attack you right off the bat. Also keep in mind that buffing causes threat so battle shout and commanding shout generate a good deal of initial aggro if everyone else is minding the first rule. I was popping blood rage immediatley followed by commanding shout every new wave and it worked pretty well.

So now you have everything but the Mage and Rifleman in melee range and you Thunderclap. Use any crowd control available to CC the Rifleman. We've used Ice Traps, Turn Undead, and Pennance and there are others I know will work. The thing with turn undead to be aware of is if you fear the mob through the door it will reset the encounter. So if you can pennance > turn undead if you have to use turn undead have your paladin hammer of justice the mob to stun them in place before they fear it.

You group can start burning down the priest as soon as they see it. You really don't have to worry about tanking it since it's damage is very nominal compared to anything else. As a warrior with warbringer I charge the mage for the stun and usualy just to get to them. Now you have the melee in tow, probably the priest too, your rifleman is crowd controlled and your on the mage while your party is killing the priest. Save your shield bash for when the mage splits at 50%, this can be bashed and stopped. I like to get tot he mage turn around and blow shockwave. This will stun the melee and lock em down with the mage for you to get one more thrunderclap rotation in.

Also worth mentioning is I did not use heroic strike on the mage. I found it more useful to heroic strike the rifleman before it got CCd to establish some threat on it. I'd do this right before charging the mage.

They key to this though is that the group has to obey the first rule. No threat generating abilities until after melee is engaged and thunderclapped. Druids needs to be especially cognative of the lingering hots and how late they cast heals. Especially combat rezs. If someone dies the druids can not combat res and then top off in between waves it needs to be done during. If they do it while your trying to get the wave under control its going to be dead druid.

After having wiped repeatedly the last few nights and struggling through HHoR and then trying this strat last night it was night and day. We did the first half of the event upto the first boss without incident. They only problems on the waves after were instances where turn undead was fearing the rifleman through the door or we wouldn't have the rifleman dead before the next wave would spawn.

Make sure your CC on the rifleman stops before you finish the melee.

Our kill order was:
Priest > Mage > Melee > Rifleman

Whenever our paladin would loose track of what was still alive and refear with melee nearly dead it made it tight to kill him and get repositioned before the next wave. Once we started using pennance instead of turn undead it went smooth as butter.

theodisius
03-25-2010, 08:41 AM
I used to find the initial waves the hardest part about HoR, but now it is the final wave exiting the instance. Twice I have found a group smart enough to get to the LK without a problem but just lacking the dps to kill the last wave quick enough. What would people say is the minimum level of dps required to do the instance? I failed last night on a group that was averaging around 2500 dps (excl. healer). That would be unproblematic for every other 5 man but seemed just short of the minimum here.

woodyman
03-25-2010, 08:52 AM
our group averages around 3.5k each with myself being around 4.5-5k i tend to munch the healer b4 he can do alot which helps.
ive pugged this with an average of 3k and its been tight so id say there or there abouts....

Zorzil
03-27-2010, 03:06 AM
Any random group that gets me as their tank and Halls of Reflection as the instance is doing it out in the open. No argument.

The number of groups that will complain about it before the first wave spawns are immense, but then they realise that the alcove isn't all its cracked up to be. I actually find it easier out in the open anyway; when I've done the alcove strategy I've found keeping the healer alive significantly more difficult, especially if its a Resto Druid. One poorly timed heal as a wave spawns and all 4-5 mobs are bee-lining for him straight through the wall and the time to save him between them entering Thunderclap range and before they land their swings is so short. If I move out to pick them up, I end up with the entire wave on me immediately and the healer out of LoS.

At least if we're out in the open when that happens, the time to intercept the mobs before they get to the healer is far higher because then I can wait until the melee mobs are reasonably grouped a decent distance away and Thunderclap, whilst silencing any casters with Heroic Throw/Shield Bash and be able to utilise my insane mobility through Warbringer.

Its also far more fun this way for me anyway; I used to love tanking heroic Shattered Halls without crowd control. This brings that feeling right back due to the high number of abilities that need to be used to pick up each group as it spawns. Its nice having the opportunity to play a Prot Warrior with all of its utilities at once.

Greg Kun
03-28-2010, 12:53 PM
I like to Tank the adds just at the entrance near the opening to the main room because; I can see what all mobs awaken and cna jump on them right away. My style sort of a pvp nature, I like to move around alot, so with all that room you can play with, you can at the same time still have that Bottle neck part to keep the mobs in line specialy the ranged ones. I've also done the Alcove alot as well, To me its a just a death trap because the LoS forces all the mobs into that corner and seen them glitch into the wall and oneshot the healer with out me able to do anything about it. on top of that the Icetrap covers the entire area of Alcove easy. I find it better to be mobile tank and give the your teams pew pew's some room to breath and space out just in case they pull one away and the tank can easly snatch them back. What comes down it is the tanks personal preference of how he/she wants to do it, so keep a open mind, be flexible, if you have CC's throw them out there to make things easyer. It proves to make you look good, and takes the frenzyness off the battle(unless your tank is on crack then he/she can handle the frenzyness with Np. lol), and makes it alot more fun.

Chalia
03-28-2010, 10:28 PM
I insist for the alcove method just because I don't trust random tanks to get aggro on the ranged. I've been killed way too many times by the priest just shooting away, even in the alcove method. I've done both though and the entrance one works well too. I've probably done this heroic 20 times in a couple months, so I pretty much consider myself an expert on it...lol. As soon as the waves starting aggroing on the tank I fade and run to the middle/back of the alcove so I'm out of the way of damage and the tank can get them all picked up. If they know what they're doing I can keep a barely 4k GS tank alive, they just have to keep shit off of me! That's all us healers ask, we don't really care how you tank it, just as long as you're keeping stuff off us.

HarassMe
03-29-2010, 08:48 AM
IMO, the doorway is the best place for warriors to tank this instance.

I have casters and ranged put their backs up against the door, myself and melee stand up front and pick mobs up as they run in. I ALWAYS know when i dont have aggro on a mob because it turns and starts running to the door. The space between the melee and casters gives more than enough time to pickup any strays.

The hunters will move to the opening of the doorway so they can get in range of the casters... if they dont, i charge to them, disarm then intercept back to where i was. This pulls the hunter into melee range.

Casters are easy to snag with heroic throw + gag order and if that's on cd... charge, shield bash, intercept back.

As you can see, my charges are a very integral part of tanking this instance. Staying in the alcove does not seem optimal, to me... for other tanking classes, it does make sense but there is no reason to limit ourselves by sitting in the corner.

These days, i've been able to make this strategy work even with newbie pug where only 1 or 2 have even seen the instance, much less run it successfully.

bling581
03-31-2010, 11:34 AM
It entirely depends on the tank class and/or the dps you have. From what I read warriors either like being in the open or it's just easier for them because of the mobile abilities they have. It wouldn't be too bad either for a DK since you could DG the mages or riflemen to you. I tank it on my Paladin and it makes it a little easier picking up the ranged targets by dropping consecrate at the opening and then LoS'ing the mobs so they run into it. I would rather tank it in the open if I knew I had reliable dps with me that would help interrupt or silence the casters and focus their dps on my target. Avenger's Shield is cool, but usually only hits 1 mob, maybe 2 at most. Unless I'm forgetting some stuff the only benefit more room would give you is if the Mages cast Flamestrike or the Riflemen traps.

The sad thing is though, when doing the LoS method, all 5 people have to actually hide behind the corner lol. Often there's some dps or healer that feels the need to stand out front so they can see better or doesn't the purpose of being in the corner and isn't completely LoS.

Termx
04-05-2010, 04:50 PM
That usually is the main problem why the LOS tactic fails. Not everyone is out of sight or worse, the healer does last minute buffs/spells that result in them getting agro, which leads to them getting killed during the first wave and we get blamed regarding threat due to their incompetence. Newb healers are not the ones that do this. I've experienced well geared ICC healers that do this simple mistake and bitch that it's our fault for not maintaining threat. It just shows that gear does not make you a top player, but the actions on how you understand and play your class.

Even hunters I'm starting to really hate them, since the majority of them never bother to feign death and/or use misdirect to reduce their threat build. They complain it's our fault for not building enough threat. I'm tired of this excuse since all they focus on is DPS meters for their epeen. Misdirect is there for a reason, same with feign death. It's not in your spellbook for decoration. You can sit here and argue about threat, but everyone has to understand that Paladins, Druids, Warriors, and Death Knights has different ways of building threat. Some are better for AE pulls, while some favor more single targets. Since Paladins can pull multiply mobs and maintained high threat, everyone assumes other tank classes can as well, which they need to understand that is not the case since some tank classes it's easier then others. Right now, since Icy Touch had an increase in threat, I have to change my rotation on every mob during a AE pull, that way I can avoid high dps players from pulling other mobs I'm not targeting away.

If their is a hunter out there uses misdrect/feign death and watches his DPS threat, I'll love you long time.

Bad part with Lich King is they change in how DPS performs. No one bothers to CC, decurse, etc...like we did back in Classic and Burning Crusade. Everything is about super mob pulls and AE dps, which is quick, but it forces players to loose the value of working as a true team. Hardly anyone uses mods like Omen for threat meters, which was a heavy requirement in raids before Lich King.

There just too many retard DPS, regardless of experience in raids or gear. Everyone just wants to do quick runs for badges, which I don't mind, but I don't want to do it with the expense of rushing through stuff. Rushing through things, just like in real life, always tend to cause more problems then their should.

Mačl
04-06-2010, 03:22 AM
Bad part with Lich King is they change in how DPS performs. No one bothers to CC, decurse, etc...like we did back in Classic and Burning Crusade. Everything is about super mob pulls and AE dps, which is quick, but it forces players to loose the value of working as a true team. Hardly anyone uses mods like Omen for threat meters, which was a heavy requirement in raids before Lich King.

There just too many retard DPS, regardless of experience in raids or gear. Everyone just wants to do quick runs for badges, which I don't mind, but I don't want to do it with the expense of rushing through stuff. Rushing through things, just like in real life, always tend to cause more problems then their should.
I second that. We even have priests who complain some UNDEAD ranged mob is shooting at them.
That's when I usually /lol at them.

Now imagine Moroes without a priest...

Sonickat
04-12-2010, 08:28 AM
Having now done this with two different tanking classes I think the strategy of preference pertains a lot to the tanking class.

As a warrior I simply can't generate enough AoE threat with thunderclap and shock wave with their cool-downs to get everything under control instantly on the pull if you go to the Alcove. If you can't do that your healer is dead as soon as they heal because being in melee range grants bonus threat to their healing spells which already generate enough as it is.

As a Paladin (first few times this weekend) the Alcove method is a joke. It works so well to simply wait for boss mods to throw up the "Wave Incoming" run out to the middle of the opening and drop consecrate run back to the Alcove. Reapply Consecrate when its up, move out of the alcove incase any didnt make it to you blow holy wrath and then its easy peasy from there.

Sadly because of the directional nature of shockwave this doesnt work for warriors.

Termx
04-12-2010, 04:34 PM
Just tried that with my Paladin tank and it works well. The Paladin has many abilities perfect for this tactic. Anyone else tried it with a Druid?

As a DK tank, were in the same boat with warriors. Even with DnD, the rune cooldowns is not short enough to spread the entire rotation to pick up all the mobs before the DPS starts attacking. This always causes at least one or two mobs to run around attacking others, usually the casters and hunter. We have more control in a open area. A narrow corner limits us, especially using abilities like death grip.

In regular mode, it's not that big of a deal. Heroic is a different story since the waves can be overwhelming, even for a experience tanker, when the group is trigger happy and never bother to allow a second or two for the tank to build threat during a pull.

Calneon
04-14-2010, 04:35 PM
I tank out in the open as a warrior. Get the footmen when they run towards you with a slam, heroic throw the mage and it runs over to you, charge the rifleman and get off a devastate, then intercept to whatever remains and you generally have them all right next to you in perfect shockwave and thunderclap position.

Blyker
04-19-2010, 11:54 PM
The problem with the alcove and everyone creeping in that corner is who is the closest to the mobs at that time, who gets the initial social agro? The mobs agro trough the walls and then have to run around to reach you. If you can put something on the ground to take agro that might be viable but for me as a warrior its harder.
What i prefer is the area near the door. If melee and casters stay in a straight line or far enough behind me the initial agro of the mobs will still be me. If there is a cc class in the group i ask him to cc mage then hunter. If there is no cc in the group i will tc and then shockwave the mobs in melee range and spellreflect the mage to keep its agro on me. I let the hunter take shots on the group its irritating but easely healable for a healer

Djangor
04-20-2010, 05:14 AM
Ever thought about doing it with 2 tanks?

Or is that too much insult to the pride of the tanking class?

Mačl
04-22-2010, 07:08 AM
Problem is, the first boss is a DPS race. A second tank will not carry you thru this. So DPS/Healers should be on their toes.

I also only lightly tank the huntar. His traps are worse than his damage. The mage is easily tanked at range against healing aggro.

Trogdorrior
04-22-2010, 09:43 AM
I literally live in heroic 5mans, and HoR holds the only pieces of gear I have yet to collect on my warrior and priest. Maybe I just get lucky but I find that 75% of my groups are pretty efficient. I'm also blessed to know two unbelievably good tanks that I queue with. The problem typically lies in the hands of the dps. Tanks are healers are, rightfully, held to very high standards, and more so in this hellstorm of a dungeon, so I rarely have unskilled tanks or healers in my groups.

I have this hankering feeling in my gut that outside of hardcore raiders, the level of skill amongst average/casual dps players has dropped dramatically. More than 1 mob gets pulled and the other two dpsers are off attacking whatever they set eyes on first. I was raised on the "attack the tank's target" mentality and I feel ashamed if I attack anything else.

I think the easiest way to manage an HoR is to let you dps know, right off the bat, that you are in control and they need to do what you tell them to. If they don't like it, let them die. A good group can easily 4 man it.

Errvalunia
04-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Personally, half of the reason I hate HoR is the corner strategy.

It makes everyone stand in a stupid little clump in the AoE. If I try to move out of the fire, the tank yells at me. It seems to me that it's often an excuse for tanks who don't know how to handle the instance (I don't know how to tank it well either, because my highest lvl tank is 31) and want to hide in the corner. This gives them the ability to blame DPS/healer if it goes wrong, which it often does. It gives them an excuse to not do their job and tank--if the rifleman is in a bad position, sometimes I can't get out of LoS of him. And while the tank lazily AoEs the other mobs, the rifleman is sitting there pewpewing me. (The mage/priest aren't a big deal because I can interrupt them, but the rifleman never seems to have a cast bar)

I usually roll with a warrior tank when I have the choice. The open air strategy is much better for my warrior tank because he can do what warriors do best--whack the mercenary a few times and then CHAAAARGE the mage and then whack her a few times and then CHAAAAAAAARGE the rifleman. Charge is his favorite part of being a prot warrior, so he seems to have fun charging around the room like a madman. It is MUCH more effective and allows me to see what's going on better. I hate being cramped in the corner. And trying to LoS mobs means that if the tank DOES go out after that rifleman, he might end up out of LoS of ME and that makes me a sad spacegoat.

Trogdorrior
04-22-2010, 11:09 AM
The corner strategy works reasonably well IF the dps don't pour out of the corner like mice when they see the first red name show up on their screen. I'm always the last one out of the corner to make sure the tank has time to collect the mobs. The most common problem I see is dps bum rushing.

Theotherone
04-22-2010, 12:00 PM
I despise the corner and this instance, but then again, I will only run this with guildies ( I used to not run H Occ, but really I've changed my mind, it's not that bad). Most people don't understand the fight mechanics, it's about cc; I can grab all the mobs on my DK, but some will still aggro away from me no matter what, it's what they do. CC is a lost art - Cataclysm, from what I've read will be a return to the old cc days, so I look forward to many wipes and being blamed therefor. The average PuG these days is a moron with great gear. How many times have you been in ICC on Marrowgar with a group filled with 5500 gs and up, people who've obviously been there before and the morons still don't burn the spikes. DPS meters are the worst things ever made.

Trogdorrior
04-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Agreed DPS meters and GS are hardly compensation for lack of skill. I will gladly go easy on dps if I can help the group in some other way, i.e. CC, off healing, etc. Nubs need to learn that their behaviour speaks louder than their combined DPS and GS

jafager
05-31-2010, 04:01 PM
Typically, when I see wipes on the trash waves, it's either healers getting gibbed right at the start of a wave, or tanks getting gibbed on the harder waves (4, 6, 7, 8).

Tanks getting gibbed is a healer problem that can be exacerbated by tanks not leveraging cooldowns and not paying attention to their positioning, and DPS not helping out with interrupts, dispels, etc.

Healers (or DPS, for that matter) getting gibbed at the start is 100% a tanking problem. If you are not actively intercepting mobs as they run toward the alcove, you are doing it wrong. Pallies and death knights are the worst offenders here, I assume because Consecration and Death and Decay make it easy for people to get away with being lazy.

LoS is for healers and DPS -- not tanks. Tanks need to get out there and mix it up.

Mäcintosh
06-01-2010, 01:25 PM
The alcove involves a lot of cramped camera angles, and combined with the colour palette of the instance and the partial transparancy of the mobs.... it's damn near impossible to figure out what's going on. It's pure chaos in there, you have no idea which mobs you don't have aggro on. .

Tidy plates threat plates FTW...

I've used both methods, alcove and hallway. First time I ever did it I was running around trying to collect everyone each time cause we started in the middle....lol

Then it was suggested to use alcove. I see why this is good for some, but it wasn't for me and each time I tried it, I could not get it done, too many wipes. Problem was, I was tucked in corner too and didn't know what the heck was happening.

One day, someone else suggested that they use the hallway and it worked much better for me, with me waiting at the opening of the hallway. Worked well. However, it's the only time I've used it because most people just expect it to be done alcove style. So I watched and learned and practiced a few things in regular, since Marwyn was being a pain in the a&$ about giving up that shield. I learned that, I hated sitting in corner and I like to stand out on top of stairs, to gain LOS aggro on everything and if ranged are closest to me, charge hunter/disarm, heroic throw Mage. Then wait for rest to come to the entrance. If disarm and HT Are not off CD yet, only then do I tuck into alcove to LOS them into entry. Then move back out. Tidy plates threat plates are a HUGE, HUGE help too, in discerning where your aggro is, and where they are. Although it's easy once I have them grouped up. Always make sure mercenary is in front of you, he disappears, back up so he can't kidney shot you or whatever it is from behind. After first boss is down, have a look around at what's left. If your group is in right corner and the closest ranged stuff is all or mostly on left side, ask group to switch corners.

Now, unless people are a total fail, we can finish it and usually easy sauce too. If I ask them to get in a corner, and they say "we're good" and we wipe.....cya, I'm out.

I'd prefer hallway, but I've learned that I am expected to do everything, the way they are used to and do it well, so I do it that way and make it work well too. Everyone is happy then and blah blah blah...
Now if the darned ship would actually save us when we escape with 20 secs left instead of waiting for the stupid speech so I can get my 6 min acheive. LOL

Passive
06-02-2010, 04:38 AM
I always laugh when people run over towards the alcove area but don't have a clue how line of sight works. Half of the time I tell the healer to LoS and they just complain that I didn't tank that mob. Usually when I then explain that they have to get out of line of sight so it runs in and then I can tank it, they usually don't speak for the rest of the instance. Whats the point in using that strategy when people don't even know why they're doing it!

tealq
06-04-2010, 04:18 AM
i guess it really depends on the class tanking it and personal preference. DK and pallys have high threat generating aoes that fit perfectly in the alcove entrance. i don't think any good tank will have threat issues per se. usually what i see is DPS picking a random mob to burn down although i usually tag the priest. they also don't consider the fact the rogue can stun the tank for quite a while. i tank at the alcove on my death knight because it makes mobs run into my D&D for a threat head start. i've actually given up on telling DPS not to attack until all mobs are in melee range, none of them listen so i just do my thing and hope for the best.

although i pull the mobs at the alcove i don't tank them inside precisely for the reasons stated above (aoeing the healers, footmen one-shotting clothies). i tend to pull the mobs down the steps to give me some leaway.

Zieg
06-08-2010, 07:21 AM
Personally I prefer the LoS to the Alcove. I'm a Protection Paladin. I have the group stand in the corner packed like sardines while I stand a little to the right of the boss. I taunt up the first add (usually for me it is a footman or a priest) and consecrate. Using my HotR (I glyphed it to hit an additional target) I draw all the mobs in melee range to me. This usually takes about 5 seconds. Usually then I would find a ranged mob (mage or riflemen). The only one I have difficulty with is the riflemen. Mage I just smack it with Avengers Shield and it comes to me. If all else fails I'll bring the melee mobs on me out to the riflemen/mage and then hit holy wrath. When the riflemen drops a frost trap and slows the movement speed of the party members I will generally cast Hand of Freedom on a melee party member so they can get back inside the alcove for the next pull. And as far as people hating to do H HoR because of these waves of adds I honestly love it. Its the bane of a tank and a healer's existence and is a whole lot of fun.

Zieg
06-08-2010, 07:55 AM
Ever thought about doing it with 2 tanks?

Or is that too much insult to the pride of the tanking class?
This is perfectly doable with one tank. Certain mechanics are a must though. I wont lie as a paladin tank it is ezmode to pick up these adds. It also depends on your group setup. if I have a Death Knight in the group I will tell them to use death grip on a riflemen and I taunt off of him. Getting them all within range of holy wrath makes it a cakewalk. Even while healing this on my holy spec of the same paladin I'll spam holy wrath to create a pause in the amount of damage the group takes. Or i'll use it in case I do have a mob on me and it gives a brief relief to the damage im taking as well. To be honest the way I look at things is "Whatever works, works" H HoR in my opinion is the most fun out of a 5 man instance.

Scryus
06-08-2010, 11:11 AM
To be honest, I've done this instance (or this part of the instance) both in the alcove, and out in the open, with each of the different tanking classes, and I can say that I prefer doing it out in the open. In the alcove, I can barely see what the heck is going on, all I get a view of is some Gnome's head (even though I'm a six foot tall Night Elf), and for the tank to call when he or she feels they have enough aggro.

Out in the open; or at least tanking in Falric's indented part of the Hall, is my much preferred way to do things. Death Knights do rather well here, their ability to Death Grip the Priest, Mage, and Riflemen proves invaluable when they can't get aggro on them instantly with their chosen AoE spell.

The only thing I believe this instance relies on is communication, and DPS with half a brain. Yes, the damage may be spiky, and fast incoming, but I've healed and DPSed this instance fine, as long as people can actually target the tank's target and cast spells at it, or hit it with a mace, or whatever, the instance should go smoothly. In theory.

Dispel.

optimum45
06-09-2010, 11:24 PM
A nice little trick I learned as a Paladin Tank is to Flash Heal myself or someone else who isn't full once or twice just as the adds spawn. I do, also, remind my healer to give me that opportunity btw. That'll give you "healer aggro" on you which will automatically force all the mobs onto you. That only works with Paladins though. But it does, really work well. :)

For everyone else, this is a survivability encounter, all 10 rounds of it. Your DPS has to know that what they have to do and do it right, same with your healer. Non-Paladins really struggle in HoR for obvious reasons. Non-Static enounters with randomized pulls will always cause problems.

Remind your group that they should do nothing, not even breath, until the tank has the situation under control. Otherwise, various problems will ensue. Jail time, Broomsticks, it's a whole ordeal...better off just do it right. :p

Claramond
06-15-2010, 02:12 PM
I do a mix of alcove/out in the open. DPS and healer go into the alcove and hide back there (our Holy pally or Disc priest typically shields me right before first wave). I stand in the middle of the stairs, half-way down, with my screen fully panned out. Then, I target the mage (if present, if not, the priest) and lead with heroic throw, as the priest tends to run into melee range anyway. I gather everything up, pull it down the stairs, into the open, and then let dps come out and full-bore burn it. Ranged stays in the alcove/on the steps and melee comes on down. Typically, I will have to work for the rifleman, but taunt is more than sufficient to keep his attention off the healer, I've found. Plus, he's easy enough to intercept/ss once the others are well and truly aggro'd.

I have had little-to-no issue with this way in guild groups where people understand how I'm going to do this and why. In pugs, this has yet to succeed on heroic, due to the aformentioned need to stick to the status quo.