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Acidbaron
03-14-2010, 05:14 AM
Hello,

This is something that has been puzzling me.

According to some a disc priest shields should have no negative effect on rage generation or in otherwords prevent rage generation.

However when leveling my druid tank paired with a disc priest if i don't cancel the shields, i'll end up with no rage at all or at most 20, with no shield i easly hit 80 rage.

I read changes way back for warriors but not sure if the same goes for druids? Am i all just seeing things? Or is this purely a lower level issue?

Thanks in Advance,

Acid.

edit: Doh, wrong section could this be moved to Theory & Mechanics Discussion (http://www.tankspot.com/forumdisplay.php?14-Theory-Mechanics-Discussion) thanks.

Destruyen
03-14-2010, 05:17 AM
iirc it's just when the shield breaks or is dispelled.

Acidbaron
03-14-2010, 06:31 AM
You mean as in getting rage from the shield once it gone?

That could explain it as the shields take time to break.

Raysere
03-14-2010, 02:38 PM
They fixed absorbs negating rage gain for Warriors but not Druids. It's not an issue at 80, you'll just have to live with it till then.

Edit: I've found the above statement to be UNTRUE. Please disregard and refer to my next post in this thread.

Mačl
03-15-2010, 07:49 AM
What?!?

I never heard that one.
Up to now I only watched pally tanks as I shielded them.
So I have to add bear tanks to my "do not shield" list?

It's been a while since I last encountered a bear in heroics(in a raid setting this is a non-issue) so I hadn't noticed anything like that. But I wasn't paying attention to bear rage generation, either.

Could somebody please confirm? With current gear levels my shield hardly gets whacked away in run-of-the-mill 5 mans.

Raysere
03-15-2010, 09:05 AM
What?!?

I never heard that one.
Up to now I only watched pally tanks as I shielded them.
So I have to add bear tanks to my "do not shield" list?

It's been a while since I last encountered a bear in heroics(in a raid setting this is a non-issue) so I hadn't noticed anything like that. But I wasn't paying attention to bear rage generation, either.

Could somebody please confirm? With current gear levels my shield hardly gets whacked away in run-of-the-mill 5 mans.

Eh well, when i say that, I probably should have started the sentence with "I believe that... ", I've never seen conclusive proof.

In fact, why don't I go test it now... I'll get back to you in 5.

Edit: Ok, myth busted. Bubbled or no bubble, I see no difference in rage gain from begin hit. I'm going to try the same on my level 20 druid, it might be a bug that affects lower levels only. Sorry for the confusion.

Another edit: Tried it out with my Level 20 feral, and I gained rage at exactly the same rate while Shielded as when unshielded. Its a quick and dirty test, but my conclusion is that absorption does not hamper rage gen for Druids at all. Again, my apologizes for spreading falsehoods.

Kazeyonoma
03-15-2010, 09:49 AM
moved.

GronkerLonker
03-15-2010, 10:46 AM
I have no idea if this could apply, but did you test this with low level shields as well? Maybe they only fixed the shield issues for higher level spells. But it's been a long time since the changes have been implemented and it would strike me odd if this hasn't been discovered yet.

Raysere
03-15-2010, 11:21 AM
I have no idea if this could apply, but did you test this with low level shields as well? Maybe they only fixed the shield issues for higher level spells. But it's been a long time since the changes have been implemented and it would strike me odd if this hasn't been discovered yet.

I did, I used my level 80 Disc priest shielding my Level 20 Feral, the game automaticly downranks ranked buffs cast on low-level players to a rank that is appropriate for the targets level, in this case Rank 5. My Druid continued to gain 1 rage per hit from the bears in Darkshore, just the same amount as I was getting taking hits with no shield. I guess it could be a really obscure bug with certain ranks though... or an urban myth.

Mačl
03-15-2010, 01:04 PM
...so I'll only have to be carefull with shielding pallies in 5mans.
You can keep them completely mana free since they don't see it coming.

Muffin Man
03-15-2010, 01:25 PM
Shouldn't they be using Divine Plea and Judgement of Wisdom anyways?

I don't actually play a Pally, but I was listening in as some guildies were coaching up a new pally tank.

Raysere
03-15-2010, 01:34 PM
...so I'll only have to be carefull with shielding pallies in 5mans.
You can keep them completely mana free since they don't see it coming.

I don't notice mana problems when playing my Prot pally with a Disc priest to be honest. Granted, I don't really out gear heroics to the extent others do.

Provided I don't forget to Divine Plea on the pull, I never run out. I judge Wisdom usually because I'm far too lazy to swap JoL back on to that hotkey.

Oh, and I sanctuary myself too.

Insahnity
03-15-2010, 02:56 PM
Shouldn't they be using Divine Plea and Judgement of Wisdom anyways?

I don't actually play a Pally, but I was listening in as some guildies were coaching up a new pally tank.

In theory, DP and Judgement of Wisdom And Blessing of Sanctuary should be enough, but in practice you get into sticky spots where DP falls off and something comes up before it's back up. Shielding said paladin when this happens is like planting a steel toe deep in his arse (i.e. don't do it!!). If you are a disc healer, pay attention to both health AND their mana levels. As a Disc priest and a paladin tank myself, I also shield paladins, provided they don't have mana issues.

Context really helps. I find myself blue rage starved as a paladin in heroics unless I drive at a relentless pace, which is to say chain pull the heck out of the place.This is because one PW:Shield is enough to last me a FEW packs, and the hits are light to begin with. Pulling 6+ mobs instead of 3 not only improves damage intake (and keeps healers awake during heroics), it also increases Blessing of Sanctuary procs. In ICC, a sub10k shield is gonna pop on the first hit! And then more damage comes, and mana lost from shielding becomes a moot point, you are just shielding for Renewed Hope gains. At that point, you can afford to Judge Light, as you have steady incoming damage->mana to allow you to consecrate to your heart's desire and do whatever else you need.

Finally, if I am a paladin and I need mana, I will start doing risky things like not putting up a sacred shield, turning my back to mobs, etc. but typically in heroics only.

Raysere
03-15-2010, 03:43 PM
In theory, DP and Judgement of Wisdom And Blessing of Sanctuary should be enough, but in practice you get into sticky spots where DP falls off and something comes up before it's back up. Shielding said paladin when this happens is like planting a steel toe deep in his arse (i.e. don't do it!!). If you are a disc healer, pay attention to both health AND their mana levels. As a Disc priest and a paladin tank myself, I also shield paladins, provided they don't have mana issues.

Context really helps. I find myself blue rage starved as a paladin in heroics unless I drive at a relentless pace, which is to say chain pull the heck out of the place.This is because one PW:Shield is enough to last me a FEW packs, and the hits are light to begin with. Pulling 6+ mobs instead of 3 not only improves damage intake (and keeps healers awake during heroics), it also increases Blessing of Sanctuary procs. In ICC, a sub10k shield is gonna pop on the first hit! And then more damage comes, and mana lost from shielding becomes a moot point, you are just shielding for Renewed Hope gains. At that point, you can afford to Judge Light, as you have steady incoming damage->mana to allow you to consecrate to your heart's desire and do whatever else you need.

Finally, if I am a paladin and I need mana, I will start doing risky things like not putting up a sacred shield, turning my back to mobs, etc. but typically in heroics only.

Pretty much this, I probably should have mentioned DP falling off as it does happen, and it's very frustrating. It makes me feel that I absolutely have to rush rush rush so that I don't let it drop while its still on cooldown. It's not a problem for me, but it puts pressure on my group to keep up with me, some people don't enjoy that. I'm not there to make heroics a living hell for a green healer. DP/Guarded by the Light is an awkward mechanic, its clear we're intended to have DP up at all times, yet the mechanics make it difficult for us to do that at times. I'm not sure rushing through instances whacking critters along the way is intended to be an essential skill for Paladin tanks to master. I'd like to see a DP duration increase or a rethink of the mechanic in its entirety.

Mačl
03-16-2010, 02:07 AM
Yep. And not every paladins skill matches his gear level.
I've found myself quite often using Hymn of Hope JUST FOR THE TANK. Who won't even get the most of it.

Especially in heroics here I could heal only with Holy Nova I find that pally tanks really suffer. Remember that Divine Aegis is also a nice bubble. And it WILL proc quite often.
So I usually resort to healing with Renew/ProM. That's pretty safe.
Paladins in ICC level gear can easily be mana starved by a strong Disc priest. Especially if they run their full healing rotation they learned on Festergut despite the tank not taking any damage. That happens. Out of boredom. *cough*
In those cases Divine Aegis never gets used up. Same goes for PW:S.

owlcapwn
03-16-2010, 02:51 AM
I did notice a disc priest shielding my in VH gave me no rage, on the single target pulls i couldn't get any rage. Not sure if this was from a shield or my block preventing the full dmg of the attack but my rage problems did go away after i asked him to not shield me. Maybe its just one of those mental things

Mačl
03-16-2010, 04:03 AM
It is a mental thing.

You will be rage starved in VH if you don't remember to keep a lot of rage between portals.
Do as I do and get a big onehanded DPS weapon and swap out tanking gear for DPS gear.

The only place that gives me a similiar headache are those dragon pulls just before the gauntlet in CoT4. Those are specifically timed so your rage will be zip and not long enough apart that you can get rage through other means. Charging is sometimes also out of the question since DPS tends to go AoE even before you can actually attack them.

It's got nothing to do with Disc priests. I can shield warriors so they never take any damage(at a high mitigation/avoid level of course) and they won't suffer from it. It is the encounter design that is problematic for rage tanks.

Evassara
03-16-2010, 11:12 AM
I play a disc priest as my main and my little alt I'm leveling up who is currently in her 30's.

Shields allow rage, and energy to be built up just as if the shield wasn't present and if the Disc Priest has the talent rapture actually increases Mana, Rage, Energy or Runic power when the shield is fully absorbed.


Rapture (Rank 3)
When your Power Word: Shield is completely absorbed or dispelled you are instantly energized with 2.5% of your total mana, and you have a 100% chance to energize your shielded target with 2% total mana, 8 rage, 16 energy or 32 runic power. This effect can only occur once every 12 sec.


I'm not sure why the original poster is having an issue but it's not what I've seen from in game play as my healer or my tank.

Acidbaron
03-17-2010, 08:12 AM
Fairly certain it was rather problematic i took several hits before i would get any rage from the shield on when testing, obviously now higher up it has become a none issue with rapture and the talent that generates rage on dodging.

So no idea what was causing it generated a lot of hassle on the initial pull the first 20-30 levels, could be i already was dodging several attacks back then and getting 'unlucky' that way, although several times i was just being hit in the back when chain pulling.

Oh well no reason to break my head over it, thanks for confirming that it isn't an issue.

Khordam
03-17-2010, 02:50 PM
The only place that gives me a similiar headache are those dragon pulls just before the gauntlet in CoT4. Those are specifically timed so your rage will be zip and not long enough apart that you can get rage through other means. Charging is sometimes also out of the question since DPS tends to go AoE even before you can actually attack them.

That's an easy one.

Every group has a spider nearby which you can taunt to stay in combat. There's one at the top of the stairs, one in the hallway where the second group spawns (to the left, near the candle-post), and at least two in the next room - one on the lower level, far corner from the entrance, the other at the top, near the bookshelf/exit.

Since critters don't have nameplates any more, chances are nobody will even notice them, let alone attempt to kill, once the little things are on the run from your fear-inspiring taunt.

/end derail

Mačl
03-18-2010, 05:16 AM
Oooooh! Neat!

Do they always run when they aggro? Or do they find some courage and return to you? I guess my damage shield would kill them instantly if they decide to go RAwRRRrrrr IMA SPIDER!

Insahnity
03-19-2010, 01:59 PM
It is a mental thing.

You will be rage starved in VH if you don't remember to keep a lot of rage between portals.
Do as I do and get a big onehanded DPS weapon and swap out tanking gear for DPS gear.

The only place that gives me a similiar headache are those dragon pulls just before the gauntlet in CoT4. Those are specifically timed so your rage will be zip and not long enough apart that you can get rage through other means. Charging is sometimes also out of the question since DPS tends to go AoE even before you can actually attack them.

It's got nothing to do with Disc priests. I can shield warriors so they never take any damage(at a high mitigation/avoid level of course) and they won't suffer from it. It is the encounter design that is problematic for rage tanks.

It's not just rage tanks, paladins were pretty frustrated at VH until they sped things up. I could rarely keep up DP due to the long wait between portals, unless I was able to kill the boss, instruct DPS NOT to kill the final mob, and kite it to the next portal, a pain to be sure if you as a tank could kill them quickly with your own auto-attacks.


Oooooh! Neat!

Do they always run when they aggro? Or do they find some courage and return to you? I guess my damage shield would kill them instantly if they decide to go RAwRRRrrrr IMA SPIDER!

Yep, take of ret aura, right click off thorns, DKs were safe all along. But Warriors with damage shield? They be screwed. But then again, with Blood Rage and good use of Berserker rage, you could try and pool more rage, it sometimes worked.

Mačl
03-20-2010, 06:32 AM
Ugh. So I'm back at square one. If I finish the first dragon group with 100 rage then the second dragon group will be attackable just before I get my 1-minute "yes, I'd like some of my only resource before I pull" ability and just after I don't have enough rage anymore to do anything meaningful.

I learned dealing with this. It hasn't made me bitter. Resentful, ready to let overzealous AoEers die, yes. But not bitter. It's more like indifferent boredom. More like a monday 11am feeling. You know, when you have just come to terms it isn't the weekend anymore and for the sake of your sanity you haven't yet started counting the days till the next weekend.
Something in that ballpark.

Khordam
03-20-2010, 11:58 AM
No, spiders are cowards. They don't fight back. They run away and keep you in combat for a good 20 seconds, which should be enough to coast you over to the next group. If not, keep Bloodrage ready.

The tricky part about it, really, is finding and targeting them. And hoping you're better at it than any of your zealous comrades trying to hack at the poor little thing.

mavfin
03-21-2010, 12:04 PM
Yeah, when healing overgeared pallies in heroics, I don't shield them unless they take a bunch of damage from something. I'll also do Hymn of Hope for them periodically. The other three classes, no issues, and never an issue in raids with paladin tanks. I can attest to the fact that shields work fine with bears and warriors, as I have an ICC-10 level raid tank of both classes.

Other issues: I use charge a lot in VH to get initial rage, and if DPS wants to AoE before I get there, that's their problem, not mine. Same in CoT. I have very little sympathy for overzealous DPS when I have no rage. :D

Zurena
03-21-2010, 10:34 PM
Although a bit far afield from the PW:S discussion, I have partial outfit that I swap on for heroics. It has a few DPS pieces in (as many as I can and stay above 535 defense) and a lower level shield. That and charging when possible seems to have solved my rage problems in heroics.