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Spiff
03-13-2010, 03:10 AM
In light of the 3% buff to vitality, has anyone looked into how much this is going to change "the tanking game" so to speak, as in how it will effect prot warrior performance compared to the other Tanking classes, if at all?

I've been thinking alot lately about warriors being kinda "squishy" (after some thought i don't think warriors are "squishy" I think its just my healers excuse for when they are bad) but alot of guilds, mine included, are using more Prot pally/ Feral Druid for tanking because they just seem to be able to take hits better. I'm hoping the vitality buff will change this some, but I'm thinking the main problem is the block mechanic. I'm sure this has been talked about and I missed it, but just throwing my two cents around. It wasn't too long ago that we saw "block value doubled" on all the gear it was on, to now seeing no block value or block rating on current content gear,and I think the Prot Warrior design, survivability wise, was based around blocking. Since warriors Agi -> Dodge is so poor compared to the other tanks, I don't see why giving warriros a strong Str -> block mechanic would be a problem. At the worst it would just be another change thrown under the bus. Talk amongs yourselves.

Hammerfists
03-13-2010, 03:41 AM
Ill list some of the answers to your questions:
-as of last minor patch warriors tookover pallies in HP pools, vitality will only increase the lead
-Pallies are on the same boat as far as block goes, only difference is you have a chance to block double they have a chance to block more often (side not maybe your guild is looking at Ardent Defender and thinking its uber godly, i know some people overvalue it)
-Bears have big health pools and armor making them good for taking blows, on paper you will find they have the biggest EH of the 4 tanks
-Block changes are more likely not going to happen as Cataclysm will change the whole block system completely

Hope that helps, thats about all i can muster with the information given enjoy.

madocks
03-13-2010, 04:56 AM
I cant wait for it, as a tauren warr im 60.6k raid buffed in ICC :D give me moar hp!

Aggathon
03-13-2010, 10:48 AM
Wait, when did warriors pass pallies in HP pools? Did they get nerfed while I wasn't watching. I thought that they still gained 14% hps from stam until 3.3.3 came out where they will get nerfed to 9% and warriors got buffed to 9% (basically evening out the playing field).

But essentially it's correct, the change doesn't really mean anything, change stat priorities, or whatever. All it means is that we get more HPS and should be even with pallies if gear is similar.

Angriff
03-13-2010, 10:57 AM
Paladins lost 4% stamina in a hotfix about 4 weeks ago. Sacred Duty only adds 2% stamina per point now. That leaves them at ~10% stamina from talents, although it's slightly more since it's multiplicative (10.24%). For an ICC geared Prot paladin, it was a loss of around 2000 HP raidbuffed.

Aggathon
03-13-2010, 12:14 PM
Ahhh okay, cool. Fair enough. Warriors still shouldn't have passed pallies with that, just a lot closer.

jere
03-13-2010, 01:04 PM
Ahhh okay, cool. Fair enough. Warriors still shouldn't have passed pallies with that, just a lot closer.

Actually they did. When that nerf went in, paladins now have less health given the same stamina gearing as a warrior (minus the ranged slot of course) until raid buffed health reaches around 69-75k (depending on which gun warriors tend to have, the normal or the heroic):

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B_0OcsS0lu6nNDM4ZTkzNGQtNzU4MC00NzhhL WE2NTktMmJkZmVmNDBjMTZk&hl=en

You have to remember, warriors have more base health, naked stamina, and stamina available from gear (ranged slot). While paladin scaling is still better, it takes it a while to overtake that lead. With the gear currently available, that lead isn't yet possible, so warriors will be ahead (slightly at the highest gearlevels and by a lot at the lower gear levels)

Aggathon
03-13-2010, 01:57 PM
Actually they did. When that nerf went in, paladins now have less health given the same stamina gearing as a warrior (minus the ranged slot of course) until raid buffed health reaches around 69-75k (depending on which gun warriors tend to have, the normal or the heroic):

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B_0OcsS0lu6nNDM4ZTkzNGQtNzU4MC00NzhhL WE2NTktMmJkZmVmNDBjMTZk&hl=en

You have to remember, warriors have more base health, naked stamina, and stamina available from gear (ranged slot). While paladin scaling is still better, it takes it a while to overtake that lead. With the gear currently available, that lead isn't yet possible, so warriors will be ahead (slightly at the highest gearlevels and by a lot at the lower gear levels)

Ahhhh okay, fair enough again. I stand corrected, thanks for setting me straight.

Vorps
03-13-2010, 08:30 PM
From what I've seen it looks like in 3.3.3 Warrior and Paladin are in one tier of effective health; Blood DK and Druid are in another.

Some quick and rough math just to back up this point. (This is for top geared characters just entering into ICC hard modes)

With ICC buff it will look something like:
Paladin - 62,000hp, effectively 66,340 hp w/ Ardent Defender +~12% passive physical mitigation, ~15% spell mitigation = 74,300EH before armor, 76,291MEH.
Warrior - 65,000hp, 10% physical mitigation, 16% spell mitigation = 71,500EH w/o Armor, 75,400MEH.
Blood DK - 65,000hp +15% max from Will of the Necropolis = 74,750hp, +13% damage reduction = 84,467EH/MEH.
Druid - 75,000hp +12% damage reduction = 84,750EH/MEH

So to lay it out for easy reading:
Last place: Warrior with 71,500EH and 75,400MEH.
Third place: Paladin with 74,300EH and 76,291MEH.
Second place: Blood DK with 84,467EH and MEH.
First place: Druid with 84,750EH and MEH.

So Warrior and Paladin are about on par... but does block really make up for losing ~10k effective health vs. magic? And ~20k EH vs. physical once armor is factored in. I mitigate about 70% from armor, 71,500*1.7 = 121,550. 84,750*1.7 = 144,075. 144,075-121,550 = 22,525.

Seems like come 3.3.3 Warrior and Paladin are in a different league than Blood DKs and Druids.

Maybe I'm totally off-base or missing something... I'd love for someone to show me this is the case so that I don't continue to feel like my class is substantially worse at surviving burst damage. Yes, the figures above aren't completely accurate, but I think they're good enough to convey significant difference between shield and non-shield tanks. Am I wrong?

MellvarTank
03-15-2010, 09:21 AM
If you are factoring in ardent defender you might as well factor in last stand on the warrior. The reality is that if Ardent Defender procs one of two things will happen:

1) The tank dies anyways. This is the most likely scenario.
2) It is wasted on account of super-paladin's massive heal that was coming regardless whether or not that hit was reducing you below 40% health.

So I would either remove ardent defender, or add last stand.

Also - None of the classes are "substantially worse at surviving burst damage". Looking at raw numbers without taking into account armor, block, avoidance... it's not going to give you any idea as to what any of the tanks are capable of sustaining in a burst situation.

Vorps
03-15-2010, 10:01 AM
I factored in the damage reduction part of Ardent Defender, not the protection from death.

Avoidance and block don't protect you against burst all the time. Either if it is magical or your luck is bad. Armor is about the same increase between all four tanks, so factoring it in or not doesn't really change the spread between the tanks, it just increases all of their effective health values to a higher amount evenly.

Let me lay it out like this... if a dragon breathes for 75k (pre-mitigation), warrior/paladin is dead while blood dk/druid live. In a situation where warrior/paladin would take a magical hit for 100% of their life; the same hit would leave a blood DK or druid with 10k life remaining...

I don't know about you, but I think in the current game being able to survive 10k+ more damage is substantial.

MellvarTank
03-15-2010, 10:29 AM
There is not a situation in the entire game that plays out like you just described.


Avoidance and block don't protect you against burst all the time. Either if it is magical or your luck is bad.

Entirely true, but the point in ICC of the -20% dodge is to reduce "burst" damage, basically, it becomes predictable burst and you can burn cooldowns to help with it. (Ie. Festergut 3rd inhale is technically "burst" damage, if you don't expect it to happen though, you have more issues.)

I have seen the stats on equally geared DK's, Warriors, Paladins, and Druids... None of them "survive" better than the others in ICC. Sure, I think the DK Anti-Magic Shell can be OP in some fights, but so can points in improved Spell Reflection.


I factored in the damage reduction part of Ardent Defender

Then I would factor in Shield Wall as well, and do a calculation of Glyphed vs. Unglyphed... or leave it out altogether. You aren't comparing apples to apples here, and factoring in non-100% uptime abilities makes any calculation skewed. It isn't as simple as "class A has more base EH". I'm relatively sure that the base damage reductions on Druids/DK's are meant to compensate for block as well.

The 3% vitality buff will be a nice boost, but really won't have an effect on the tanking game at all. If it does, Blizz will nerf it, or buff the other classes.

Hammerfists
03-15-2010, 07:22 PM
To leave out shield block would be a misnomer. You have a cooldown dedicated to it (Shield Block for Warriors, Holy Shield for Pallies) talents that make it better (Critical Block and Shield Specialization for Warriors, Redoubt for Pallies) and in your case a glyph (glyph of Blocking). Granted Druids have a block but it is no way improved by anything other than it being there.

Most scenarios ive seen tanks die from is not from a single hit but a quick 1-2 or 3 string of hits. For the scenario you described im sure DBM would have that attack on a timer giving you a clear clue at when to blow your cooldown(s). Taking Shield Wall for example the optimum version will be a 40% damage reduction on a 2 min cooldown timer now compare that to Barkskin which is 20% damage reduction on a 1 min cooldown timer. Although you'll end up using Barkskin more when a big hit happens it will mitigate half of what your cooldown does hence why bears will have the larger health pools.

The higher physical damage reduction for bears and blood dks are there because of shield block just like magic damage reduction is higher for warriors and pallies because of smaller health pools. The diagram you put up is akin to tanking facing away from the boss. You need to look at everything a tank can do to really compare a tanks performance.

Vorps
03-15-2010, 11:37 PM
Right, which is why I don't factor in avoidance...because burst is taking a combination of hits generally. Effective health isn't about taking less damage, it's all about being able to survive more damage before heals can land. I do not factor in block or Shield Block because they are not reliable or always available. Shield Block has a 25% up-time max, and blocks only provide reduction on about 1/3rd to 1/2 of non-avoided hits. Taking full hits occurs a lot.

I don't think factoring in the 20% damage reduction from Ardent Defender is unreasonable. It's like factoring in Will of the Necropolis. If you're taking a full life bar of damage, they will always proc and provide those bonuses. These reductions are not comparable to Last Stand or Shield Wall... I would say they're probably more comparable to Critical Block if anything.

So maybe the problem is truly that Critical Block is unreliable. Say if it guaranteed a block if a warrior was knocked below 35% health or is under 35% health, that'd actually contribute to burst survival/effective health. Because it would be reliable. For physical damage at least.

Maybe this is something we will see for Cataclysm, because blocking 60% of a physical hit on a Critical Block seems like a little too much. I'd also hazard a guess they'll tweak with magical mitigation values through Mastery. As it stands right now, Improved Defensive Stance could boost magical mitigation by 10-15% and druids and DKs would still probably survive magical damage better or equally at the very least.

Xequecal
03-16-2010, 04:18 AM
I factored in the damage reduction part of Ardent Defender, not the protection from death.

Avoidance and block don't protect you against burst all the time. Either if it is magical or your luck is bad. Armor is about the same increase between all four tanks, so factoring it in or not doesn't really change the spread between the tanks, it just increases all of their effective health values to a higher amount evenly.

Let me lay it out like this... if a dragon breathes for 75k (pre-mitigation), warrior/paladin is dead while blood dk/druid live. In a situation where warrior/paladin would take a magical hit for 100% of their life; the same hit would leave a blood DK or druid with 10k life remaining...

I don't know about you, but I think in the current game being able to survive 10k+ more damage is substantial.

Armor is most certainly not "about the same" increase for all four tanks. For starters, a Druid with a 13,000 HP advantage over a Paladin will have substantially less armor than that Paladin.

Second, Death Knights gain the least from armor because they do not block. The new WotN mechanics can also penalize having excess armor for a specific boss. WotN is ONLY +17.64% EH if the boss' standard melee attack will actually reduce you from 100% HP to 35% HP in one hit. If it cannot, it's only +6.17% EH. This discrepancy is massive, and can actually result in a DK decreasing his EH by increasing his HP or armor, depending on what the boss' damage range is. The implementation of this is really clunky, and makes for some absurd situations. It's quite possible for a Priest to actually decrease your EHP by casting PW:S on you on a boss, for example.

3.3.3 WotN is only overpowered on LK 25 hard mode because he hits so ridiculously hard that it will proc on every swing, meaning it's going to be a full +17.64% EH all the time. On every other boss it's going to be worse than Ardent Defender. (even +90/90 Festergut heroic 25 does not hit hard enough to trigger WotN with one swing on a full-HP DK.)

You are right about magic damage but in ICC what you're talking about doesn't exist. All the tank killers are physical damage. The magic damage in ICC is either avoidable or 100% predictable. Deathwhisper's Frostbolt can be interrupted and Soul Reaper is on a hard timer so you know exactly when it's going to hit and have cooldowns for that point. There's really no other big magic hits in the zone.

protonly
03-16-2010, 05:10 AM
@vorps being able to survive a 10k hit is a game changer. That is the difference between getting a raid spot and doing chores around the house.

Vorps
03-16-2010, 05:14 AM
Armor is most certainly not "about the same" increase for all four tanks. For starters, a Druid with a 13,000 HP advantage over a Paladin will have substantially less armor than that Paladin.

You'd think so, right? I just re-compared Paragon's Paladin against their Druid...

Armor/HP Values(buffed in ICC):
Lazeil (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightning%27s+Blade&cn=Lazeil) - Paladin - 37,586 Armor, 63,620 HP
Sejta (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightning%27s+Blade&cn=Sejta) - Druid - 38,197 Armor, 76,630 HP

Druid has 13,010 more HP and actually has 611 MORE armor. They're both using dual stamina trinkets and same bonus armor pieces in off-slots they share (rings, cloak, neck). Paladin also has bonus armor weapon and BiS shield.

I looked into this before posting in this thread. Looking more deeply into how effective health compares between the four tanks in 3.3.3 got me curious as to how armor really compares between Druids and plate tanks... I also assumed that with the introduction of a lot more bonus armor gear that Druids had to have lower armor, but it's simply not true. Yep, I was shocked too.

Don't believe me? Plug their armories into Rawr.

So then:
Block vs. Savage Defense and 13k more hp, which would you rather have?

Also, I understand what you're saying about how Will of the Necropolis can be comparable to 13k extra HP only when you're taking hits that do 65%+ of your health pool. If you take two hits for say 40% of your max health each, then you're really only gaining like half of the potential effective health increase, and so on. It's still very nice because it is guaranteed, and it also maximizes its benefit when it's most useful. Which is surviving the most wicked burst in the game. Of course, like you said... +90/90 Festergut is considered burst, but because of the frequency of the hits and the hits not doing Lich King amounts of damage, it makes WotN lose its edge. Yet, you're still getting hit with top end burst.

It's like trying to use WotN to survive tanking all of Anub'arak's adds... it just won't work. However, a Druid even with their additional HP can't survive tanking all of Anub'arak's adds either, but does that make their 13k extra health any less powerful overall? I dunno. I'd have to say WotN is probably better than block in nearly every boss encounter. Especially if there's magic involved. Though it's definitely not overall as powerful as having a flat 13k extra HP, not yet anyway! The exception being H-Lich King.

Xequecal
03-16-2010, 05:56 AM
I just did run their armories through Rawr, and I got somewhat different results. Are you using the latest version? I have 2.3.12.

First, I'm going to assume you didn't check Stoneskin Totem for either player, and you activated all other raid buffs including the 5% HP/damage/healing ICC buff, because that's the only way I get my numbers to be close.

Doing that, I get 38,125 armor and 76,714 HP for the Druid. So pretty much the same. However, for the Paladin I get 64,156 HP and 38,778 armor. It's a straight import from armory, I changed nothing but activating raid buffs. Also note the Paladin is not wearing bonus armor bracers, so is missing out on 714 armor there. So, considering the Paladin has "effectively" 69,770 HP after Ardent Defender while having 1367 more armor, I'm really not seeing a huge discrepancy here. Remember 500 of the Druid's hitpoints come from the Tauren racial as well. Considering all of that, the Druid has ~4% more EH than the Paladin. I'm pretty sure it's a fair trade for having vastly better cooldowns, 5% more avoidance, and cheat death.

Vorps
03-16-2010, 07:33 AM
I do have the most updated Rawr. I went back and made sure everything is checked and still getting same values as before. Regardless, it's not as huge of a difference one way or the other. Either Druids or plate might have more armor. Average it out and they're generally about equal. Of course, Paladins have Ardent Defender and DKs have WotN. I'm not sure Warriors having Shield Block and Critical Block makes them balanced or not, but it just doesn't seem like it. Due to the fact that Warriors rely more heavily on chance and abilities that aren't always available. Plus, their counterparts do not work for magic.

Also, one other thing to note... Druids only get about 370HP from Tauren racial. It's based off of base naked HP, Druid base HP @80 is 7,417.

MellvarTank
03-16-2010, 07:38 AM
....shield wall?

....shield block?

....forget about these abilities which are more reliable than ardent defender?

Vorps
03-16-2010, 07:47 AM
Potentially... and then only for 10-12 seconds. Meanwhile, Ardent Defender can keep helping you survive more damage while Warrior abilities are cooling down.

Honestly, I don't understand why you think I'm trying to challenge Paladins position in relation to Warriors. If anything, I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm trying to show that Paladins and Warriors are actually about equal, and it's Blood DKs and Druids that are potentially superior. For end-game raiding anyway.

Hammerfists
03-16-2010, 04:42 PM
....shield wall?

....shield block?

....forget about these abilities which are more reliable than ardent defender?

Please dont degenerate this thread into an "OMG Ardent Defender doesnt require you to push a button, its godly". All it leads is to tank mechanic strife/grief posts and eventually getting the thread locked. Bottem line is if you think its better than what you got reroll a Pallie.

At this point i will agree with you vorps that the way shield block panned out in the xpac hurt warriors a great deal and to a lesser extant pallies as well.

MellvarTank
03-17-2010, 08:14 AM
Please dont degenerate this thread into an "OMG Ardent Defender doesnt require you to push a button, its godly".

Actually it's quite the opposite ;). I'm not starting the ol' palli vs. warrior debate, but I think when looking at the numbers, your shield wall/block SHOULD be taken into account, as burst damage is mostly predictable now (ie. Festergut 3rd inhale) and where a Paladin cannot pop Ardent Defender to soak that until they get nuked to 35%, a warrior can pop his cooldowns and chain them through the 3rd inhale. That is numbers I would rather see factored in, instead of bear/dk have more raw health and therefor can take a 10k hit that the other classes can't.

I just don't buy it. I've raided with both, and taken 1/2 the damage of both (block streaks/dodge streaks; normally I just take less damage), I don't think for a second that they are superior in any way/shape/form for having more health.

Spiff
03-17-2010, 05:08 PM
I just don't buy it. I've raided with both, and taken 1/2 the damage of both (block streaks/dodge streaks; normally I just take less damage), I don't think for a second that they are superior in any way/shape/form for having more health.

This is turning out to be an EH vs Avoid arguement. I don't thin you can throw shield wall into this arguement since both classes have the same type of mechanic, shieldwall vs diving protection ( I think, what ever bubble wasll is)

Vorps
03-17-2010, 07:09 PM
Regardless, I was curious. List of EH with cooldowns factored in. From minimum to maximum. Using base EH values from earlier in this thread.

Physical (*~1.7 to factor armor)/Magical

81,400 - Warrior with Shield Block

92,950/98,020 - Warrior with Last Stand

97,462 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood

100,100/105,560 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed)

101,700 - Druid with Barkskin

102,950 - Warrior with Last Stand and Shield Block (vs physical only)
110,100 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed) and Shield Block (vs physical only)

103,960 - Druid with Barkskin and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

110,175 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed)

111,450/114,436 - Paladin with Divine Protection

112,435 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed) and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

113,262 - Paladin with Divine Protection and Holy Shield (vs physical only)

114,400/120,640 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed)

116,967 - Blood DK with Anti-Magic Shell (vs magic only)

122,887 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed)

124,400 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed) and Shield Block (vs physical only)

125,147 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed) and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

126,700 - Blood DK with Icebound Fortitude

130,130/137,228 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed) and Last Stand

132,210 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed) and Barkskin
134,470 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed), Barkskin, and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

140,130 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed), Last Stand and Shield Block (vs physical only)

146,193 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood and Anti-Magic Shell (vs magic only)
146,193 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood and Icebound Fortitude

147,465 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed) and Barkskin

148,720/156,832 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed) and Last Stand

149,725 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed), Barkskin, and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

158,720 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed), Last Stand and Shield Block (vs physical only)

194,193 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood, Icebound Fortitude and Anti-Magic Shell (vs magic only)

∞ - Paladin with Ardent Defender

Enjoy.

MellvarTank
03-18-2010, 07:45 AM
Thanks Vorps.


This is turning out to be an EH vs Avoid arguement. I don't thin you can throw shield wall into this arguement since both classes have the same type of mechanic, shieldwall vs diving protection ( I think, what ever bubble wasll is)

I am not thinking that is what it is turning into. Shieldwall/shield block are not avoidance, they are mitigation. I don't think any of us want to go down the Avoid vs EH road.

Molecule
03-18-2010, 01:01 PM
Regardless, I was curious. List of EH with cooldowns factored in. From minimum to maximum. Using base EH values from earlier in this thread.


A couple of these cooldowns are either more useful than a raw EH calculation would suggest or vary with regards to circumstance. Specifically, shield block has a variable contribution depending on how fast you are receiving hits, and vampiric blood is actually much more useful than the 15% HP increase it provides in situations where you are guaranteed to be able to survive the burst damage with +15% but you also need quick incoming heals to prevent the next hit after a damage spike from killing you (e.g. Festergut 3I and Soul Reaper).

Unger
03-18-2010, 01:32 PM
I dont see how this is becoming a QQ thread about the differences. End game tanks and raid leaders need to know the theory regarding tanks.... even if it means sitting themselves in favor of another tank. Vorps wasnt QQing.... he was merely presenting data that could be useful to the community. If he is wrong, Im sure we would all like to know. But if his math is correct, it paints a picture that ALL tanks are better off knowing than being ignorant to the issues.

If you have a problem with his calculations, say so. But dont reduce this thread to being a "OMG PALLYS ARE OP" type thing. That is not what he is doing.

MellvarTank
03-18-2010, 01:44 PM
If you have a problem with his calculations, say so. But dont reduce this thread to being a "OMG PALLYS ARE OP" type thing. That is not what he is doing.

I don't know if people aren't reading what I wrote or not, but honestly, I have argued against that this whole thread.

The first numbers put DKs/Druids way out in front. Look at this post:




Regardless, I was curious. List of EH with cooldowns factored in. From minimum to maximum. Using base EH values from earlier in this thread.

Physical (*~1.7 to factor armor)/Magical

81,400 - Warrior with Shield Block

92,950/98,020 - Warrior with Last Stand

97,462 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood

100,100/105,560 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed)

101,700 - Druid with Barkskin

102,950 - Warrior with Last Stand and Shield Block (vs physical only)
110,100 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed) and Shield Block (vs physical only)

103,960 - Druid with Barkskin and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

110,175 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed)

111,450/114,436 - Paladin with Divine Protection

112,435 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed) and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

113,262 - Paladin with Divine Protection and Holy Shield (vs physical only)

114,400/120,640 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed)

116,967 - Blood DK with Anti-Magic Shell (vs magic only)

122,887 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed)

124,400 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed) and Shield Block (vs physical only)

125,147 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed) and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

126,700 - Blood DK with Icebound Fortitude

130,130/137,228 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed) and Last Stand

132,210 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed) and Barkskin
134,470 - Druid with Survival Instincts (unglyphed), Barkskin, and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

140,130 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed), Last Stand and Shield Block (vs physical only)

146,193 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood and Anti-Magic Shell (vs magic only)
146,193 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood and Icebound Fortitude

147,465 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed) and Barkskin

148,720/156,832 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed) and Last Stand

149,725 - Druid with Survival Instincts (glyphed), Barkskin, and Savage Defense (vs physical only)

158,720 - Warrior with Shield Wall (unglyphed), Last Stand and Shield Block (vs physical only)

194,193 - Blood DK with Vampiric Blood, Icebound Fortitude and Anti-Magic Shell (vs magic only)



Look at how much closer those numbers are. THAT is what I was arguing.

As I said: DK's anti magic shell CAN be OP, just like Warriors Spell reflect (Mimiron anyone?), but that is simply a mechanic of the class and really won't make DKs pull ahead as tanks. It just means that on a magic heavy fight, having a DK will give your healers more of a break. That is important to know for any raid leader.

jere
03-18-2010, 01:45 PM
I dont see how this is becoming a QQ thread about the differences. End game tanks and raid leaders need to know the theory regarding tanks.... even if it means sitting themselves in favor of another tank. Vorps wasnt QQing.... he was merely presenting data that could be useful to the community. If he is wrong, Im sure we would all like to know. But if his math is correct, it paints a picture that ALL tanks are better off knowing than being ignorant to the issues.

If you have a problem with his calculations, say so. But dont reduce this thread to being a "OMG PALLYS ARE OP" type thing. That is not what he is doing.



The problem with that is that people don't tend to always agree on how the data should be represented and 'what counts' as what. Two different people can incorporate shield block, for example, very differently as EH. It becomes less of theory discussion at that point unfortunately. The information Vorp posted can't be confirmed or denied for a couple of reasons atm:

1. We don't know how he calculated all of those values (some we can figure out, but not all of them).
2. The way he incorporated them maybe a matter of preference. Do you incorporate block as a 1 time thing, or do you scale it with the number of hits taken? People will choose different ways to represent data.

EDIT: none of what I am saying means he is wrong by the way.

Hammerfists
03-19-2010, 05:43 PM
This is turning out to be an EH vs Avoid arguement. I don't thin you can throw shield wall into this arguement since both classes have the same type of mechanic, shieldwall vs diving protection ( I think, what ever bubble wasll is)

As most people have already pointed out Shield Block is mitigation Avoidance is Dodge and Parry and Miss Chance which no one here is making a reference to. The point that is trying to be conveyed is that if we look at just constants ie health, armor, and flat damage mitigation from talents and glyphs we dismiss the importance of block to mitigation. If the different tanks mentioned above had the same EH or roughly near each other the tanks with block will take less damage hands down since the other tanks have nothing equivalent to it.

@MellvarTank: I appologize for being rash in my accusation of you making this into a class war. Its just that much too often these days short posts about Ardent Defender's ability usually lead into a fecal storm of degenerate class on class warfare. Im glad you brought up chaining cooldowns, this is one thing that i have felt disappointed in my Pallie tank.

@Vorps: Thanks for the new right up always appreciate your work. Its interesting to see warriors have climbed up in the standings from your last post without block. This reaffirms my belief that the 4 tanks are very close to their abilities to tank a boss. It all comes down to the player.

Vorps
03-19-2010, 07:27 PM
Problem is, cooldowns and blocks aren't guaranteed. When cooldowns are used or you take full hit(s), either by failing block checks or taking magical damage, Warrior in 3.3.3 is probably still the most susceptible to death via burst chains.

What I don't understand is how a Druid can have the same armor, avoidance, similar cooldowns and still have 8-11k more HP than Warriors. Block? Druids actually have a blocking mechanic, it's called Savage Defense (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62600). Their mechanic is actually far more reliable than Warrior block, it just doesn't have the potential to block for quite as high as Warriors can. For a top geared Druid it can block for ~2,300, and it has about a 94% chance to occur each boss hit (unless the boss is hitting god awful fast). Warriors block for ~1,500-5,000 w/o Shield Block activated. Warrior block is better for multiple mobs, and extremely fast hitting mobs, or a mix of the two... but for most bosses their provided mitigation is probably pretty similar.

Unfortunately, World of Logs marks down Savage Defense as an absorb, so I can't get accurate data on how much it actually reduces damage on a fight. However, based on overall damage one can tell pretty easily that Druids take less damage than Warriors.

Deathbringer Saurfang Heroic, Xav vs. Melaar: (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ygv62uzmf3062te1/sum/damageTaken/?s=3872&e=4135)
Xav - 5,243 damage taken per second, tanked for 119 hits total
Melaar - 4,166 damage taken per second, tanked for 109 hits total

Xav - Average hit = 21186.0 w/o block, 19663.8 w/ block
Melaar - Average hit = 16902.1

Xav@65,131HP, 39,071 Armor, 44.5% Avoidance
Melaar@74,656HP, 42,519 Armor, 43.1% Avoidance

So, Druid took ~20% less damage than Warrior and still has 9.5k more HP? What?

I love how Blizzard can post something like, "We like the tank balance of warriors and druids at the moment." (source (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22749574063&sid=1)) When they are at opposite sides of the tanking survival spectrum.

Hammerfists
03-20-2010, 12:57 AM
Problem is, cooldowns and blocks aren't guaranteed. When cooldowns are used or you take full hit(s), either by failing block checks or taking magical damage, Warrior in 3.3.3 is probably still the most susceptible to death via burst chains.
I have seen you posted this a couple of times. What i dont get is the "burst damage" you talk about comes in this expansion in the form that you are suppose to use a cooldown to combat it be it yours or from an external source. There are no crushing blows anymore which seems to be the type of damage you allude to ie unexpected big hits. These big hits are on a timer provided by your boss mod.

Deathbringer Saurfang Heroic, Xav vs. Melaar: (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ygv62uzmf3062te1/sum/damageTaken/?s=3872&e=4135)
Xav - 5,243 damage taken per second, tanked for 119 hits total
Melaar - 4,166 damage taken per second, tanked for 109 hits total

Xav - Average hit = 21186.0 w/o block, 19663.8 w/ block
Melaar - Average hit = 16902.1

Xav@65,131HP, 39,071 Armor, 44.5% Avoidance
Melaar@74,656HP, 42,519 Armor, 43.1% Avoidance

So, Druid took ~20% less damage than Warrior and still has 9.5k more HP? What?Scroll to Marrowgar and you will find that the Warrior took less damage and the 2 Druid tanks took the most. 1 fight wont be the definition of Warriors need more TLC than is promised. Each class takes damage slightly different, mechanics play a part in how we take the damage as well. Warriors will benefit the most from Cata's block changes that is a given but currently they are not in a point where they are so far below the other classes that they are getting bumped out.


100,100/105,560 - Warrior with Shield Wall (glyphed)

101,700 - Druid with Barkskin

this point right here that you posted earlier tells me that the disparity between the two doesnt put them into 2 leagues. Skill is what seperates the two. Both classes have fears. Warriors want shield block to get fixed not receive a band aid and druids are worried about being a mana sponge from what we know about cata's raid goals.

Vorps
03-20-2010, 05:15 AM
Hmm... I looked for a log with a Druid with highest threat on Marrowgar, not just taking Saberlash. Here's one from Exodus. (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jvtd6bebiy06mxh0/sum/damageTaken/?s=718&e=932) Druid is now taking the least damage, with Warrior and Paladin taking more while eating Saberlash. Best I can figure is that the person getting hit with Marrowgar's melee actually suffers less damage from Saberlash than the people just taking Saberlash. In this case the Druid was taking less average per Saberlash hit. 12,179 average for Druid; 15,747/12,975 blocked/unblocked for Warrior; and 16,977/15,388 blocked/unblocked for Paladin. So if between the logs damage averages out to about the same on all tanks... I still don't understand why Druids have higher HP, armor, and same avoidance.

If it is because Barkskin is only 20% reduction, well... Barkskin can also be used anywhere from twice as frequent as other similar tank cooldowns to up to five times as often. It's like Druids have half of glyphed Shield Wall active all the time. I dunno about you all, but that seems better. In 3.3.3 Will of the Necropolis will provide a similar sort of increase, but on a sliding scale of effectiveness depending on how hard bosses hit and how often. I still believe in 3.3.3 the spectrum of survivability will be: Druid > DK > Warrior/Paladin, and in a few cases DKs might take the lead.

Take a look at the Saurfang (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jvtd6bebiy06mxh0/sum/damageTaken/?s=4244&e=4477) log too. Druid@2,296DPS taken. Paladin@4,098. Over 40% less damage taken. Yes, this fight is really good for cooldowns with short reuse, but I do not think cooldowns would account for 40% damage. Not when Druid's cooldowns are 20% reduction and potentially 12% reduction (w/ 4pc). Gear plays some factor. The Paladin is still using some 258/264 gear, but the difference shouldn't be that enormous. Actually, the Druid is in a majority of 264 gear as well... peppered with a few 277s and 258s.

*shrug*

Hammerfists
03-20-2010, 06:04 AM
You forgot to look at the healing logs. Druid received nearly 30% of his healing from Protection of Ancient Kings while Warrior got 22% and Pallie got 13%. Druid used Bark Skin twice and survival instincts once, Warrior just used Shield Block but never used Shield Wall, Pallie as well did not use Bubble Wall but only used Holy Shield. Once again this becomes a moot point. BTW i was looking at Exodus' logs fyi not Saurafang.

I think this discussion is more about you being disatisfied with your Warrior then about Warriors being a weak tank. I just dont find any evidence in game to support that they are in need a major buff to be like druids nor does your evidence support it. What you are putting under the microscope ie "Barkskin can also be used anywhere from twice as frequent as other similar tank cooldowns to up to five times as often" is more of a class flavor than something that will make or break a tank. I would consider rerolling or at least playing around with the Druid before Cataclysm hits.

PS i just checked the Saurfang log the Druid used Bark Skin 3 times the Pallie used Bubble Wall 0 times.

Vorps
03-20-2010, 06:20 AM
I actually have a Warrior and Druid in 264 gear. I'm not saying Warrior is a bad tank, just that the perceived 'squishiness' mentioned in the original post is likely due to Druids just being somewhat better than good enough.

Problem is, Blizzard has stated they don't balance tanks around one another, but against encounters themselves. So it seems the people who design Warriors like to keep them right on the line of life/death. The Druid devs seem to give them a little more leniency. I actually prefer the stricter design, and would rather see nerfs to achieve balance.

Blizzard could probably tone down Druid stamina modifiers again, or maybe they are balanced for when block will reduce hits by 30% and they have just opted to leave things as is until it works itself out to avoid causing strife that a nerf would cause. Maybe when they tweak stamina on leather Druid HP will get lowered. I don't know.

Aggathon
03-20-2010, 09:12 AM
Just tossing in my 2cp real quick:

I think that theorycrafting different classes together to this extent is a mistake. I don't want warrior talents and reductions to be the exact same as pallies, even if by the numbers pallies are better. I don't want druids to be the same either, or death knights. Each classes still have to have their own niches and quirks, otherwise it wouldn't matter what class you role and you delve down a path that ends up with 4 classes, tank, melee, ranged, healer. I don't like that dichotomy, instead I prefer classes that have various strengths and abilities.

I'm also a firm believer in that tanking theorycrafting really can't be dwindled down to just raw numbers. How your tank performs, how they use their cooldowns and tools that blizzard gave them is far more important. At the point in time that one class and only one class is usable on a boss fight, that's when there's problems. The only fight that's come close is H-Anub-25, but frankly I really loved that fight from a tanking perspective and if you had a DK or Druid tank, it didn't leave them out of the fight, instead they just tanked anub and the warrior/pallies OT'd the adds.

Just because by the numbers perfectly executed warrior abilities might not end up being as much calculated EH as a paladin's, doesn't mean that you can't use the abilities in different ways to achieve similar results. It is extremely hard to look at tank damage taken in a vacuum, you really have to assume a lot of surrounding circumstances.

And IMO the fact that Xav may have taken more damage but is still on the bleeding edge of content is just proof of that. Just because warriors might take more damage on a fight doesn't mean that they can't still do the content.