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Sliverspark
03-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Look further down the thread for combat log postings.

I was messing around with my Fury spec earlier today and I had an epiphany of sorts. I've noticed a lot of Fury gear with the haste stat on it. Now Flurry gives us a haste boost already, but doubling that with a proc trinket with haste on it, as well as a potion can give you some pretty insane results. I practiced hitting the combat dummy with my two 2-handed weapons, then with two 1-handed weapons. I was doing about the same amount of DPS, and one of my 1-handers was significantly less powerful than my 2-handers in terms of stats.

So I am wondering if anyone rolls warrior with just two 1-handers? And is it possible to find a viable talent spec with DPS that is on par with a warrior using Titan's Grip?

Imriela
03-13-2010, 12:54 AM
I roll with 1 handers on my 70 warrior (experience gain turned off).
I have wanted to mess around with it at 80, however I still need to find a good second 1 hander to use. I haven't found much info out there, but I'm sure that it is possible, just be ready for a lot of people to give you crap about it.

Sliverspark
03-13-2010, 01:33 AM
Personally, I think it's possible, with the right person, you can roll any spec you want and still top the DPS charts. I got my hands on a haste potion when I was using the combat dummy, and with flurry, I was at 1.14/1.00 attack speed. I was literally hitting so fast, my animations couldn't keep up. My DPS went through the roof as well. I can't imagine using this with a haste proc trinket. I am going to do some experimenting; but I'd still like to see what people think about this, and if it's possible to pull it off.

Arikak
03-13-2010, 11:10 PM
Record some combat logs of both Titan's Grip DPS and 2 1-handed DPS.

Control as many variables as possible. Don't use a Haste Pot (Don't think you can use more than one of these per combat session so minimal gains for raid dpsing) make sure to run sufficiently long sample times (like 15min for each variable or longer).

Post up those numbers. It would be interesting to see what you come up with.

I'm not sure you'll turn up any thing new since, in essence, you are trying to argue that Titan's Grip, gemmed for Str or ArP is less effective than w 1-handed weapons with Haste stacking. That flies contrary to a lot of theory crafting. But it never hurts to challenge something. Sometimes you end up right.

Sliverspark
03-14-2010, 05:47 PM
I ran about 8 tests. Titan's Grip in Berserker Stance and Battle Stance on a level 80 target, then on a boss target. Then I dropped the talent and did the same tests dual-wielding two 1-handed weapons. The results were better than I anticipated. WMO won't allow me to publicly share my combat log, I did find another site that does though.

However, I have chosen not to post my results at this time because first: It took me forever to run these tests, and I am going to have to rummage through all of my combat logs (which is A LOT) to find the appropriate ones; since they are archived. Having new talents for each arena season throws teams off, and also gives you an edge. I will also be using this new-found spec for PvE as well. I only tested a Fury spec, but will test an Arms spec in the near future.

-Fixed

Destruyen
03-14-2010, 06:22 PM
I ran about 8 tests. Titan's Grip in Berserker Stance and Battle Stance on a level 80 target, then on a boss target. Then I dropped the talent and did the same tests dual-wielding two 1-handed weapons.
pretty sure that 1hander dual weild will not out-perform titan's grip if played right. sure on a test dummy you are going to get consistently more rage due to the lower swing time so you can spam hs more, but in a raid environment with buffs tg will significantly outperform 1hander dw due to the added weapon damage and higher stats on both weapons even with the 10% less dmg.



However, I have chosen not to post my results at this time because first: It took me forever to run these tests, and I am going to have to rummage through all of my combat logs (which is A LOT) to find the appropriate ones; since they are archived. And second, I don't want to reveal any of my play strategies to anyone. I know it sounds a bit obsessive, but having new talents for each arena season throws teams off, and also gives you an edge. I will also be using this new-found spec for PvE as well. I only tested a Fury spec, but will test an Arms spec in the near future. Thanks for encouraging me to choose a different path, Arikak. Heh heh...

so basically you are saying "im changing to 1hander dw but im not going to tell you why or show you the math behind my decision". wow, good thing people like landsoul, bwarner and other great dps warriors have run countless hours of tests and made their findings public.

and fury in pvp isn't as good as arms since there isn't a guaranteed ms and no unrelenting assualt so i don't know what edge you are referring to.

Sliverspark
03-14-2010, 08:44 PM
I had to fix my previous reply. I have full intentions of posting my results here. I have a lot of combat logs to go through and I figured it would be better just to run the tests again, perhaps a bit longer so I can get more accurate results. I don't know when this will be however.

I think Fury PvP can be much better than Arms, if played right. I think all specs have the potential to kick ass; if played right. Right now, EVERYONE rolls Arms in arena. By this time, people know how to kill an Arms warrior, and expect no different in any match they come across with an enemy warrior. I hate 2-handed weapons. I never used them leveling, and I saw no increase in anything using them at level 80. Why would I want to dual-wield two weapons that each have a 3.40 attack speed when the numbers below ring true:

v. Level 80 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
v. Level 81 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
v. Level 82 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25% (level of most heroic bosses)
v. Level 83 mob: 8.0% / dual-wield: 27% (level of raid bosses)

It's preposterous. If you have a 27% miss chance why in the nine hells would you want to put the slowest weapon in the game in BOTH HANDS?!

Let's break it down to professional game mechanics here and try to look at it from Blizzard's point of view. If there was one spec, the best spec, the most damaging, nothing can come close to it; Blizzard would nerf it, (they did when Titan's Grip was originally introduced. I rolled Fury and hit so hard it almost felt like cheating to me). This is why I believe there are many other specs besides the one I am using that I believe are more than viable in both PvE and PvP environments. I think people find a good, easy spec to play (not saying Arms is easy, but it isn't exactly hard either), they post it, and people roll with it because of it's popularity and playability factor. Did anyone stack haste/strength instead of armor penetration? Did anyone stack critical strike/strength instead of armor penetration? I have yet to find any place that has records of these things, (and if you do know of a place, please post it). My conclusion: They will turn out to be virtually the same in damage output because it's needed for game balance. It's the most logical reasoning to use when trying to figure these things out.

Destruyen
03-14-2010, 08:52 PM
logical or not, the math doesn't lie. this has been tested countless times on elitistjerks and tg with 2handers wins every time.

Imriela
03-14-2010, 09:19 PM
Did anyone stack haste/strength instead of armor penetration? Did anyone stack critical strike/strength instead of armor penetration?

I gem pure Str in red and blue slots and Crit/Str in yellows if it results in a Str socket bonus. Due to Improved Zerk Stance, I have a lot of Strength and hit really hard. Do I miss sometimes? Yes, my white damage will, but my specials don't, and they hit really hard. I don't have any WWS or WoL reports to show, cause I always tank raids. However I know there are plenty of parses out there with str/crit Fury Warriors in them.

Sliverspark
03-15-2010, 02:15 AM
logical or not, the math doesn't lie. this has been tested countless times on elitistjerks and tg with 2handers wins every time.

No, the math doesn't lie. I'm rolling dual-wield 1-handers because the DPS and damage output was higher than Titan's Grip when I tested it. There are too many variables where Titan's grip just doesn't hack it.

What tests are you referring to? I'd like to see some comparisons myself.

Imriela
03-15-2010, 02:18 AM
I'd like to see some of your parses, maths, and/or logs. Plenty of TG math has been posted, where is yours?

Eravian
03-15-2010, 06:59 AM
I did an experiment at one point with a 51/20/0 build that used two one-handed swords with Bladestorm and 5/5 Dual-Wielding in the Fury tree (no Flurry, though) and put up alright dps numbers, although it was situational at best (Bladestorm did great damage, other attacks not so much), but whether that build I experimented with or the one that you're trying out, a lot is going to depend on what weapons you have.
If you have high end one-handed swords and old 2-handed swords, you're naturally going to have a better dps turnout with the one-handers (for example, Bloodvenom Blade has about the same damage and dps as the Betrayer of Humanity from Naxx-25, and is a one-handed weapon). Now, if they're comparable in item level, the 2-handed weapon is going to have more damage and dps, but swing slower - even with a slower swing speed, though, generally the added damage on Whirlwinds, Insta-Slams, and Bloodthirst will win out in the long run. With two one-handers, you're melee damage will likely go up quite a bit, particularly if you stack Haste, but it will likely see lower returns on Whirlwind, Slam, etc. unless the actual weapon damage isn't all that different.

Destruyen
03-15-2010, 07:00 AM
There are too many variables where Titan's grip just doesn't hack it.

What tests are you referring to? I'd like to see some comparisons myself.

and there are many variables where non-tg will show even dps with tg, but once you put it into a raid setting (the type of setting that really matters) and execute a proper rotation tg will put up the best numbers.

plenty of warriors like i mentioned in my previous post have ran these same exact tests and have posted their findings on elitistjerks. not one has shown dual one-handers outperforming tg. please post your dps numbers and length of fights (i don't care about a full parse or log) with the sets used in the comparison.

if you were just going to keep the numbers to yourself you shouldn't have bothered posting here about it. this website is about information sharing, not "i've got numbers that proves everyone wrong but i'm not going to show them" on the basis that if you share it your "edge" with fury in serious arenas will be compromised (i really hope you are joking about that btw).

Sliverspark
03-15-2010, 07:31 AM
and there are many variables where non-tg will show even dps with tg, but once you put it into a raid setting (the type of setting that really matters) and execute a proper rotation tg will put up the best numbers.

plenty of warriors like i mentioned in my previous post have ran these same exact tests and have posted their findings on elitistjerks. not one has shown dual one-handers outperforming tg. please post your dps numbers and length of fights (i don't care about a full parse or log) with the sets used in the comparison.

if you were just going to keep the numbers to yourself you shouldn't have bothered posting here about it. this website is about information sharing, not "i've got numbers that proves everyone wrong but i'm not going to show them" on the basis that if you share it your "edge" with fury in serious arenas will be compromised (i really hope you are joking about that btw).

I will post the information when I have time to in the next day or so. And I'm not joking about it, I honestly don't think it matters what spec you roll, as long as you know how to use it efficiently in any given fight.

Foolish
03-15-2010, 08:43 AM
There is also a large discrepancy between testing on a training dummy and a fully raid-buffed environment. Just because you may have gotten higher dps with two 1-handers, doesn't mean that will translate to higher dps when fully raid-buffed.

And if you want people to take it seriously, you need to list the gearsets for both setups along with parses of both. Because yes, you will do more dps with two ilevel 251 1-handers than you will with two ilevel 219 2-handers. Or if you are under hit/expertise cap with the 2-handers but not the 1-handers. Etc.

No one is saying that 1-handed Fury is useless, far from it. You can do "good* dps with it, however you will do *higher* dps with equivalently itemized and item-level 2-handers.

Destruyen
03-15-2010, 09:06 AM
No one is saying that 1-handed Fury is useless, far from it.

there's times with my random heroic frost daily when i get an undergeared tank i'll throw on some one handers just to lessen my damage and threat a little. but again, in a raid environment it just doesn't put out the numbers that 2handers can.

i'm looking forward to your numbers and gearsets used sliverspark.

Valdur
03-15-2010, 09:31 AM
It's preposterous. If you have a 27% miss chance why in the nine hells would you want to put the slowest weapon in the game in BOTH HANDS?!
I just want to point out that with ToC25+ geared fury warrior, the only thing that can miss is your off hand melee attacks. Your main hand melee attacks are almost always converted into HS which means that it can't miss as long as you are hit capped (5% + 3% from Precision). Your rage comes from off hand melee attacks and 5% hit is fine to keep you filled with rage.

Sliverspark
03-15-2010, 01:47 PM
I think the numbers may have been off because my original tests were ran for 15 minutes.

I ran some new tests today, six minutes each. I chose to run for six minutes because it seems a fairly average amount of time it takes to get a raid boss down. In an actual raid environment, some fights may last longer, or much shorter. I felt six minutes would provide me with the most accurate numbers.

Gear Used:

Weapons

Titan's Grip Build - Main-hand (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=2025) / Off-hand (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=2025)

Non-Titan's Grip Build - Main-hand (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=2029) / Off-hand (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=2029)

*All weapons item level 20. I found it increasingly hard to find a set of weapons for both specializations that were of the same item level, that is why I bought and used these. Furthermore, I felt it was the only way to get the most accurate information possible.

Armor

Shirt - Antiseptic-Soaked Dressing (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44694)

*Besides my shirt, I didn't use any other armor, no trinkets, no jewelry. I don't own enough pieces of armor to compliment both specializations. Even if I did, I wouldn't have done things any differently here. This takes out almost every variable and gives us the best numbers.

Talent Specializations Used:

Titan's Grip Build (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3020320123300000000000000000000305050005505310 050120501051000000000000000000000000000)

Two-Handed Weapon Specialization 3/3
Titan's Grip 1/1

Non-Titan's Grip Build (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3020320123000000000000000000000305450005505310 050120501050000000000000000000000000000)

Two-Handed Weapon Specialization 0/0
Titan's Grip 0/0
Improved Demoralizing Shout 4/4 (Simply dumped my last couple points in here)



TEST RESULTS (http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/54162/reports/) *Look at the "Comment" for each log to determine test type.



Titan's Grip is number one for DPS and damage output it seems. I think my previous tests were ran too long to really determine the best outcome. I humbly apologize. I still don't like using it, or any two-hander for that matter and I encourage everyone who reads this to read between the lines and use whatever specialization you are happy with. As long as you know how to pull the right DPS, you should be fine.

Kazeyonoma
03-15-2010, 03:06 PM
keep in mind also, that these "results" will be further skewed in the favor of TG when you realize that the sheer number of stats you gain from 2 2handers versus 2 1handers grossly outweights everything else 1 handers bring to the table.

Destruyen
03-15-2010, 03:12 PM
all you did was test white swings? idk cause wol confooses the hell out of me...

do an actual fury rotation with both specs and with those white weapons and you will see tg pull ahead. equip real weapons and you will see tg gain even more.

OPK
03-15-2010, 03:38 PM
I'm not really familiar with DW at all but couldn't yo put a 2h in your MH and a 1h in your OH? I would think the faster in your OH with an enchant that is passive or nearly passive might be decent.

Kazeyonoma
03-15-2010, 05:00 PM
all you did was test white swings? idk cause wol confooses the hell out of me...

do an actual fury rotation with both specs and with those white weapons and you will see tg pull ahead. equip real weapons and you will see tg gain even more.

yes all he did was melee swing.

You HAVE to use your rotations to see the difference, a lot of abilities, like whirlwind, are based on your main hand weapon damage, and will scale tremendously with bigger slower higher weapon damage items.

sud
03-16-2010, 07:42 AM
You can be pretty sure that the way Blizz tested it - all things being equal - there is no friggin' way you'll beat 2x2H DPS with 2x1H DPS.
But don't take it too hard on yourself, I hear they are planning to bring back 1H fury alternatives in Cata.

Sliverspark
03-16-2010, 07:51 AM
Yeah. I see no point in having dual-wield if it's completely useless. Blizzard must've looked at that too...LOL.

Astemus
03-16-2010, 12:43 PM
I used to like fury in BC, however, like everyone else, I got all excited about titan's grip when it was announced. After playing it a while, I just didn't enjoy the playstyle and it quickly led to me abandoning my warrior. I was mostly a tank but would respec to dps between raids to keep the flavor alive. Going from the quick pace of warrior tanking to the swing-3 seconds waiting-swing style of the new fury, I moved on.

I am really hoping that they bring this option back to warriors, because not everyone is all about the big crits.

And MAN is it hard getting two-handed weapons, let me tell you.

Eravian
03-16-2010, 12:49 PM
You HAVE to use your rotations to see the difference, a lot of abilities, like whirlwind, are based on your main hand weapon damage, and will scale tremendously with bigger slower higher weapon damage items.

If I'm not mistaken, Whirlwind actually takes into account the damage of both hands, not just the main hand, making it particularly friendly to two two-handed weapons.

Kazeyonoma
03-16-2010, 01:25 PM
correct Eravian =P

Skyborn
03-16-2010, 01:42 PM
Going from the quick pace of warrior tanking to the swing-3 seconds waiting-swing style of the new fury, I moved on.

As a man who loves his Fury warrior I URGE you to revisit the Fury spec. The "feel" you described is completely opposite of how the class is now. Maybe at a very low level of gearing (ie. when WotLK first came out) you're going to feel bored while you wait for rage gen... but now its another story.

I swear, Fury has a very snappy feel to it now. In heroics I actually have to play more conservatively, usually giving tanks 2 or 3 global cooldowns worth of wait time before I start into my rotation... but once you get your rotation going it feels very fun.. definitely not a slow spec at all.

Eravian
03-16-2010, 01:47 PM
I was actually playing around with Fury the other day, since I know have a Citadel Enforcer's Claymore and Ramaladni's Blade of Culling... did alright dps, but I do agree that compared to Arms it definitely feels slower... although it didn't help that a lot of the time I couldn't really find much to fill my empty GCD with... Heroic Throw, Sunder, Slam if it procs... Execute if I can...

MellvarTank
03-16-2010, 02:12 PM
WW>BT>Slam! (proc'd)>Heroic Strike/Cleave

Thegreatme
03-16-2010, 03:39 PM
1) if you have your 4pc, or even simply enough gear to viably weave rend in to your rotation fury uses pretty much every single GCD these days. sure you have to get out of the mind set of trying to never push BT or WW back but it's still a DPS gain, and it's a lot of fun. learning to weave rend in to my rotation is seriously some of the most fun I have ever had with the fury rotation.

2) with 1h fury you would have to pick up TfB, unless you wanted to waste points by leaving them in 2h weapon spec. just think about the GCD clutter of having to manage BT, WW, bloodsurge procs, weaving rend, and TfB procs, not to mention the rage generation requirements to be swapping stances every ~6 seconds. doing that would make you even more global starved that arms which is already using every single GCD.

3) faster weapons mean less damage per 1ap, with the average 2h speed being 3.6 and the average 1h speed being 2.6 by using 1h's you are decreasing the damage per 1 ap by ~27.7%, which after WW/HS/slam damage is taken in to account is going to be more of a loss DPS than the 10% damage reduction caused by TG.

Sliverspark
03-16-2010, 04:07 PM
I don't know, like a few people here, it just seems boring to me. Back when I was leveling I either used a shield, or two 1-handers, I never used a two hander. In fact, since I started playing this game, (shortly after Burning Crusade came out), I steered clear of 2-handed weapons because the speed was so high. I was never one to play the alpha class, or in this case, an alpha talent build. It's really easy to never change stances and hit 4-5 abilities for a boss fight. I respect everyone's opinion, and if Titan's Grip works for you, then by all means do it. I have only ever played the warrior class. I dabbled in death knight and priest a bit, but I always come back to warrior. I think there are a lot of hidden gems within warrior builds that have yet to be seen. In a metaphorical sense: I try to be the Titan's Grip warrior that equips a shield and pops defensive stance/shield block during Bonestorm, or a whirlwind. And that is what makes warrior such a great class: versatility.

Phillycheese
03-16-2010, 10:42 PM
I'm surprised more people don't find it absolutely RIDICULOUS that you tested with ilvl 20 weapons.

But then again, it's not like Any warrior skills scale with weapons right -_-

Destruyen
03-16-2010, 11:30 PM
I'm surprised more people don't find it absolutely RIDICULOUS that you tested with ilvl 20 weapons.

But then again, it's not like Any warrior skills scale with weapons right -_-

cause it's the easiest way to get same ilvl weapons in both 2hander and onehander versions....

Brage
03-17-2010, 02:54 AM
Fury slow? Thats probably because you're not generating enough rage for constant cleave/hs spam or not getting enough crits for some SLAMMIN'!.
Fury is only my offspec but i've got 245ilvl gear all 'round more or less. Did a full Arp regem last night and i'm now sitting at 100% Arp with food/elixir and i got alot of attacks to do during fights, with big numbers comming out.

Our dedicated guild fury warrior does a crapload of damage it's borderline rediculous and he to, has to lay low for 7-8 seconds on trash atleast.

swelt
03-17-2010, 02:55 AM
cause it's the easiest way to get same ilvl weapons in both 2hander and onehander versions....
That's true, but since the key point here is that TG benefits from the higher stat budget and raw damage/dps of the weapons, a test that uses unrealistically low damage weapons with no bonus stats invalidates the testing. I hope we all agree on that.

I hope also that we can let this thread die now, DW fury without TG is dead until Blizzard decide to change things. The underlying reasons are fairly simple: The whole of WOW damage and scaling is based on some fairly universal constants. How much damage and stat budget weapons have being one of those. Titans Grip breaks it in a major way. The net result is that Blizzard have had to balance the whole of the Fury tree around the assumption that you HAVE got TG. They have spoken many times about how they don't like the fact that TG is a "1 point god mode" talent point, but that they think the cool factor of swinging 2x2handers is worth it. There will always be people that want to try to swim uphill, but you are not going to compete on a level playing field with a "unique snowflake" build against someone that has an optimal build and knows how to play.

Cadogan
05-12-2010, 02:16 PM
In all honesty to really give anything a good try you must work on it for a weeks or so at least. I lvld Arms then switched to Fury when 3.3.3 came out. I considered myself "trying Fury out" for at least a month. When I switched over to Fury if I would have went from the numbers that day I would have went back to Arms and made a huge mistake. But after working on the spec and getting the rotation down. I seen the real results coming from hard work and research. And that is all it comes down to. Many of us have tired many specs and different ways of doing things. But if honestly think DW 2 1-H is better than fully using TG. then switch the specs. And really use it for about a month, See what the numbers are. Then go back to use TG for a month, Get used to it And i KNOW you will see better numbers with TG EVERYTIME.

Edgewalker
05-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Why do people constantly think there are some undiscovered talents that other people before them just haven't utilized correctly?
Cookie cutter specs are cookie cutter because they are better.
People don't dual wield one handers because it's dumb and does less damage in every real scenario, every time, by a mountain. You honestly shouldn't even need mathematics to tell you the end results.

Satorri
05-13-2010, 08:19 AM
But it's always fun to look for what may have been overlooked. Every now and then there is something, that's how fun and interesting new ideas are found.

On a related but non-congruous point, I am excited by the fact that they have mentioned trying to make Fury a Titan's Grip *or* one-hand dual wield tree.

Imriela
05-13-2010, 09:42 AM
On a related but non-congruous point, I am excited by the fact that they have mentioned trying to make Fury a Titan's Grip *or* one-hand dual wield tree.

Me too, I want my beloved non-TG Fury back. I just hope it will be high enough in the tree for me to pick up it and deep wounds at 60.

Satorri
05-13-2010, 09:51 AM
Interesting, why at 60?

Loganisis
05-13-2010, 10:13 AM
Why would I want to dual-wield two weapons that each have a 3.40 attack speed when the numbers below ring true:

v. Level 80 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
v. Level 81 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
v. Level 82 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25% (level of most heroic bosses)
v. Level 83 mob: 8.0% / dual-wield: 27% (level of raid bosses)

It's preposterous. If you have a 27% miss chance why in the nine hells would you want to put the slowest weapon in the game in BOTH HANDS?!

Sometimes I think I know more than I do, but it seems to me that the frustration over these "preposterous" miss numbers is wildly misplaced.

3/3 Precision, 164 hit and your yellow attacks will never miss (dodge/parry is another discussion).

So what exactly is impacted by the chart above? Your OH whites almost exclusively (because your MH whites have been replaced by Heroic Strike). So you're looking at a ~19% chance to miss with your off-hand whites.

Considering the much larger top-end damage on your MH, which factors into your yellow attacks very signficantly, off-hand white damage is dwarfed (would Deep woulds be a bigger factor?). Factor in larger crits off MH Yellows and the gap between 1-hand and 2-hand TG damage would increase even more.

Miss #s aren't a big issue in a fury rotation as long as you're yellow capped. Adequate Exp and placement behind raid bosses (and lets face it, thats the only DPS anyone REALLY cares about) and you're a DPS machine.

Imriela
05-13-2010, 11:07 AM
Interesting, why at 60?

This is why :D (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Emerald+Dream&cn=Anako&gn=Project+Vanilla)

Satorri
05-13-2010, 03:10 PM
Ha ha, I had a feeling it was something like that, but I didn't think there were many bastions of Vanilla purist love left. =)

Solasun
05-14-2010, 03:28 AM
On a related but non-congruous point, I am excited by the fact that they have mentioned trying to make Fury a Titan's Grip *or* one-hand dual wield tree.

If they can make Dual Wield Fury as fun as they managed to make Dual Wield Frost in 3.3 - I'll pick up a PVE DPS spec again. As to the actual topic - sadly I doubt you're going to out-damage or even match TG specs as much as some of us would like you to.

Satorri
05-14-2010, 05:03 AM
It's faulty logic to go into a development cycle saying, "I know they're saying they'll give us the option, but I'm sure it will be weaker and unappealing."

In all likelihood if they can't find a way to balance it, they'll just drop support for it. The more likely thing to happen is that they'll balance it, but find they have to adjust it down the road as gear improves to keep them balanced with heavier weapons.

Loganisis
05-14-2010, 06:26 AM
It's faulty logic to go into a development cycle saying, "I know they're saying they'll give us the option, but I'm sure it will be weaker and unappealing."

In all likelihood if they can't find a way to balance it, they'll just drop support for it. The more likely thing to happen is that they'll balance it, but find they have to adjust it down the road as gear improves to keep them balanced with heavier weapons.

It would be interesting to see them try to manage it. Yellow damage mechanics would almost have to be a function of Speed * Top End Damage instead of just top end damage to keep DPS output similar between 1H and 2H. I wonder if you'll start seeing class-only weapons? Such as 1-hand swords only warriors and DW DKs can use in order to balance out the stats on them? Be interesting to see if those 1-handers would be interesting to rogues as well? Buffed up dual 1handers for a dual1hander class...

Or is the impression that TG will give a bonus to 1-Handers? A lot will depend if they make 2 talent paths in the tree (1H dual and 2H dual) or modify TG to allow both play styles.

Martie
05-14-2010, 07:31 AM
It would be interesting to see them try to manage it. Yellow damage mechanics would almost have to be a function of Speed * Top End Damage instead of just top end damage to keep DPS output similar between 1H and 2H. I wonder if you'll start seeing class-only weapons? Such as 1-hand swords only warriors and DW DKs can use in order to balance out the stats on them? Be interesting to see if those 1-handers would be interesting to rogues as well? Buffed up dual 1handers for a dual1hander class...

Or is the impression that TG will give a bonus to 1-Handers? A lot will depend if they make 2 talent paths in the tree (1H dual and 2H dual) or modify TG to allow both play styles.I think the re-occurrance of 1handers with strength will go a long way to make a difference. Add some procs that favor fast weapons, and you can get a decent way into balancing it.
I think that this is one of the reasons that they are introducing reforging, by the way - instead of making two similar weapons, where the main difference is 120 str or 120 agility, they can make one weapon with 80 strength and agility. Reforging allows people to change the unwanted stat into the other.

Loganisis
05-14-2010, 08:13 AM
I think that this is one of the reasons that they are introducing reforging, by the way - instead of making two similar weapons, where the main difference is 120 str or 120 agility, they can make one weapon with 80 strength and agility. Reforging allows people to change the unwanted stat into the other.

Hmm... Maybe I'm wrong, but the last blue post I saw for Reforging mentioned a 50% penalty for switching, so if a sword had 120 agility you could make it 60 Str, or 60 agility and 30 Str.

I don't see reforging as being utilized very much, at least not in more than a stop-gap manner. The penalty to reforging is just too high. So if you've been unlucky with RNG, you'll use it to replace a stat like Hit with something else because you have too much of it, but the trade off equivalency means the stat you are switching too, if it's not a over-minimum capped stat (e.g. 164 hit with 3/3 precision for Fury and hit), it's going to require a 2:1 equivelency advantage for swapping. Which means that, at least where WotLK is invovled, no would would swap 2 Agi for 1 Str.

Over minimum Hit, over soft-capped exp, over capped ArP, they'll be value to switching stats around, but the big issue this round, at least when it came to BiS gear for Fury is the 2 or 3 or 4 slots that the agility gear was preferred (agi frost vendor belt over str belt, agi ashen ring, etc). Maybe I'm being too pessemsitic, but if the mechnics don't change much, swapping 2 agility for 1 strength would be a net DPS loss.

********

Changing the proc rate for fury talents wouldn't seem to be much of a solution since most attacks are yellow attacks, leaving few white attacks to make a difference, even with a faster wep speed (especially when using talent like HS to swap white for yellow).

AP based yellows would seem to be okay by increasing the STR on 1-handers (since AP is being removed from gear). It's the top-end damage that I think would have to become a (Wep speed * Damage)*/+ X formula rather than the current Damage */+ X. That would seem to equalize 1Handers and 2Handers.

Martie
05-14-2010, 10:19 AM
Hmm... Maybe I'm wrong, but the last blue post I saw for Reforging mentioned a 50% penalty for switching, so if a sword had 120 agility you could make it 60 Str, or 60 agility and 30 Str.

My point exactly. Right now, virtually all 1hander dps weapons have agility/stam as their stats, which is one of the reasons that they are suboptimal for plate wearers - no strength.
So if they change it that you can basically choose between agi or str through reforging, (instead of ging 120 of one stat, they'd give 80 of each - reforge the unwanted stat into the wanted stat, and you get 120 of the prime stat,) making 1handed weapons more appealing for us plate wearers.

Loganisis
05-14-2010, 10:49 AM
So if they change it that you can basically choose between agi or str through reforging, (instead of ging 120 of one stat, they'd give 80 of each - reforge the unwanted stat into the wanted stat, and you get 120 of the prime stat,) making 1handed weapons more appealing for us plate wearers.

Hmm... I doubt that'd work unless they really redo preffered stats for classes. Right now a sword, all else being equal would have a higher expected DPS at 80 Str 80 agi than 120 Str. Each point of agility is >50% the value of each point of strength (more like 77% IIRC from Landsoul's).

I know it's all up in the air right now - but this sorta proves the point on Reforging - unless you're over min/cap, swapping a stat to another is probably going to be a DPS loss.

Reforging will be useful in some cases (off-spec limited drops with a bad collection of stats on them, like when I was running with 600 hit in my Fury offspec because of the gear...) but in most cases, it's going to be a net loss to reforge for Fury.

Katzazi
05-15-2010, 04:48 PM
Agility will not be a good stat for plate wearers in Cata. I doubt that it will be worth >50% then...

Destruyen
05-15-2010, 11:23 PM
Agility will not be a good stat for plate wearers in Cata. I doubt that it will be worth >50% then...

agi isn't that good of a stat now for dps warriors. however, since agi gear has a 5th stat on it while str items only has 4 usually makes those items better than str options.

Satorri
05-16-2010, 04:24 AM
Agility will not be a good stat for plate wearers in Cata. I doubt that it will be worth >50% then...

That isn't necessarily true. It will not give AP, but it will still give crit. It is safe to say it will surely not compare to Str, but it is presumptive to assume it will not be good anyway. We'll have to see just how it all shakes down.

Just understand that they will not try to open up the ability for 1-handed Fury and then not support it. They have good reason to support it, since it will share weapons with Frost DKs.

Loganisis
05-16-2010, 09:52 AM
Yeah. According to Landsoul's spreadsheet, 1 Str = .7769 Agi in terms of DPS effectiveness. So any trade-off above 1.5538 Agility to 1 Strength would be a net DPS loss, and since the stated trade off is 2:1, it would be a DPS trade loss off to trade 2 agility for 1 str.

Of course this is all based on the current mechanics. I know they're reworking the way many stats are working.

Trogdorrior
05-17-2010, 10:19 AM
Maybe i'm adding something that has already been said but for me, at least, pvp is as much about utility as it is about damage. I really don't see what utility a fury spec, esepcially a tiny little 1h fury spec would bring to the pvp table. Aside from nominal self heals from bloodthirst and blood craze and the slow from piercing howl, the tree is all about pounding on something really hard and not much else. That very same fact is what makes 2h fury ideal for pve. There is little to no fluff in there. Given that the stats on two 1h weapons are typically less, when added together, than one 2h of the same ilevel, carrying two of those weapons makes for a huge stat buff, and stats are king.
Secondly, Maybe I'm playing my spec wrong, but I see alot more yellow than I do white when I'm whacking at mobs.

Imriela
05-17-2010, 10:49 AM
Maybe i'm adding something that has already been said but for me, at least, pvp is as much about utility as it is about damage. I really don't see what utility a fury spec, esepcially a tiny little 1h fury spec would bring to the pvp table. Aside from nominal self heals from bloodthirst and blood craze and the slow from piercing howl, the tree is all about pounding on something really hard and not much else. That very same fact is what makes 2h fury ideal for pve. There is little to no fluff in there. Given that the stats on two 1h weapons are typically less, when added together, than one 2h of the same ilevel, carrying two of those weapons makes for a huge stat buff, and stats are king.
Secondly, Maybe I'm playing my spec wrong, but I see alot more yellow than I do white when I'm whacking at mobs.

I'm going to guess you didn't play in Vanilla or TBC, because I remember some Fury warriors in PvP that would kill anything and anybody they came across; more so in Vanilla than TBC, but yeah. With the rework of the Fury tree and how it works, I would agree that Fury is the weakest PvP spec currently.

Edgewalker
05-17-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm going to guess you didn't play in Vanilla or TBC, because I remember some Fury warriors in PvP that would kill anything and anybody they came across; more so in Vanilla than TBC, but yeah. With the rework of the Fury tree and how it works, I would agree that Fury is the weakest PvP spec currently.

Mortal Strike warriors were always infinitely better than fury warriors in vanilla... the healing debuff had nothing to do with it.
Sweeping Strikes - Whirlwind was the greatest group PvP tool, Windfury worked much better with 2 handed weapons, and stacked with Sword Spec. and Hand of Justice.
Fury did good damage in top end gear, and you could still get easy kills with it, but it had nothing on MS specs.

Sliverspark
05-17-2010, 03:53 PM
Honestly, I think when Cataclysm comes out, no one is going to know what to do and what is effective for a while. Just in speculation and opinion: it's going to be a competely different game almost. And I'm hoping Blizzard is putting things together so that there are either tons of cookie-cutter specs, or none whatsoever. I think that's why so many changes are being implemented. Personally, I like dual-wielding two 1-handers, but I can't do that because everyone knows that Fury is the best DPS PvE spec.

Satorri
05-18-2010, 04:57 AM
Honestly, I think when Cataclysm comes out, no one is going to know what to do and what is effective for a while. Just in speculation and opinion: it's going to be a competely different game almost.

That's a pretty safe assumption. They take the opportunity to make major paradigm changes with every expansion and level cap bump, and when they rebalance all the abilities for the new talents and methodologies they usually come out differently, so it takes time for people to re-explore. That's part of the fun and excitement of an expansion for people like the ones who frequent this section of this forum.

austaz
05-25-2010, 10:54 AM
I would really like to see a 1h fury spec that works on haste proc abilites or even "yellows" that increase white dmg haste vs doing a big damage attack. Opens up a different play style where you need to manage bursts of extra white dmg that last 5-10 seconds vs large attacks. Like someone said dmg is a function of weapon speed rather than top end dmg. This would be a very different option to titans grip fury and I used to love running fury offspec spec at L70 using mostly fast tank weapons.

Cruelhitz
06-28-2010, 10:01 PM
@h win.... Blizzard wouldnt make titan's grip so useless...

Furywarrior
06-29-2010, 11:22 AM
silver the only way you will be able to prove your point is to get some real gear at your lvl enchant/gem accordingly and find a good rotation, it is obvious to see that you favor your 2 1-handed dps so it may be hard for you to get a grip on the dual-wield 2-hander rotation but if you can and there is without a doubt a dps increase with your 2 1-handers then this post that you have made will become meaning-full, because (no offense) all i see here is talk no real action, and your comparison with dps cant be made by two low white weapons with no gear on, as Kazeyonoma said the sheer number of stats you lost in making that dps comparison is why the "test" that u did is a waste.

leethaxor
07-01-2010, 10:38 AM
http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=81099 there you happy?

WarriorTanks
08-15-2010, 08:19 PM
Has anyone tried a modified Titan's Grip build slanted heavy towards avoidance and damage mitigation, equipping all high level tank gear, tank shield in off-hand but a 2H weapon for main-hander? Run this in Defensive Stance and figure out what kind of survivability you get. have they already tried and tested this concept (I'm am sure they have)? If so, anyone know what the results were?