PDA

View Full Version : Falling on My Sword



Charneb
03-04-2010, 11:44 AM
I just need to vent for a second - I've been out of tanking for 10 months and just started running heroics the other day to get back in practice. I love the dungeon finder tool - great great work by blizzard. I've been sticking with runs I know so not to slow up any groups. 10+ runs - maybe 2 deaths - which both players immediately said "my bad" - not your fault.

Today in the random heroic we get AN - should be like a 10 minute run or less, right? At the waves in front of first boss Mr, melee dps doesn't let me establish aggro, he pulls 2 guys, dies. No biggie I say my bad and move on. Quick rez - he does it again on the next wave, pulls aggro and dies. I start getting smart ass comments from the other dps. "Maybe you should use Vigilence. Whats worng with you dude... how about a Taunt..." I say nothing, we down the 2 bosses in short order and move to the final boss.

At the final boss Mr. Anxious melee DPS runs head first into the ring ahead of me. I get worried he is going to pull the boss and decide to charge in past him so he doesn't die again. Of course our healer gets locked out and we wipe on what should be a layup. I get blamed for not waiting, called a Faggot several times and hear I suck for 5 minutes. Then right before the fight redo 2 guys drop and thats that.

Look DPS, pulling aggro is 100% your fault - plain and simple. If you are too impatient to wait an extra 2 seconds to make sure I get a Thunderclap or SW down then you deserve to die. Instances take what, 10-20 minutes now - and extra second or two makes no difference, wiping does. it doubles the time and lessens the fun. I have thick skin but no tolerance for idiots. I am sure everyone has bad group stories, problem here is I was blamed for the bad group because the others were too stupid to see who the problem was.

very frustrating -

mangaart1st
03-04-2010, 11:53 AM
Something all tanks have to deal with these days. Just part of being a tank unfortunately. We are the ones who are to blame when things happen during the run that causes deaths or wipes. In some instances its our fault in most its not. Just have to shrug it off and look to the next run.

Bodasafa
03-04-2010, 12:02 PM
Let the DPS that pull aggro die every time and then publicly laugh at them. They are in the wrong not you. Establish that from the get go and let them know you are in charge. Don't take crap from piss poor dps who think they are in charge of the run. Whether they like it or not, the tank controls the pace, no one else.

Kazeyonoma
03-04-2010, 12:14 PM
Moved to Off-Topic forum, btw this should be a blog more than a thread post, make use of the tools we provide you! ;]

Quinafoi
03-04-2010, 01:03 PM
Look DPS, pulling aggro is 100% your fault - plain and simple.

This falls into two catagories.

There is intentional aggro pulling.
And there is unintentional aggro pulling.

Reasons to "intentionally" pull aggro.

Save the Success of the Group (aka the Healer)
The tank is generating less threat, or unable to generate sufficient threat on all mobs present, to hold aggro off the healer. DPS can intentionally pull threat to protect the healer. This is nothing against the tank personally. It is likely just a matter of the tank lacking the fundamental skills and sufficient tanking experience. This should get better in time. If the healer dies, the group fails. Even if you say this is the tanks fault, the group as a whole fails. DPS can try to compensate for this and prevent the entire group from failing. Though the golden rule of survival always comes into play, never bite off more than you can chew.
Friendly Competition (never applies to random pick up group tanks)
If you know each other, anything goes. Throw down the gauntlet and challenge your friend. In a controled case, actually challenging yourself will lead to self improvement. If you want the tank to get better at what they do, you need to push them to the next level. The same goes for the DPS. A little friendly competition can go along way to improving your skills. In the same regard, don't get yourself killed doing so, no one likes repair bills.

"Unintentionally" pulling aggro is something that will happen. Sometimes the stars align, and big crits come in and at the same time, so does the threat. Sometimes when you're dealing with such large numbers threat can spike greatly where you can pull aggro without even hitting a high threat warning, or have enough threat in the air (ranged abilities with travel time) to pull aggro when you get the high threat warning. There are two things DPS need to realize when accidentally pulling aggro.

1. You are no longer DPS, you are now a tank.
2. You pulled aggro, it is your fault. You have to deal with it. If you can't handle the mistakes you made for yourself, you will die. Never bite off more than you can chew. If you pulled aggro on more than you can handle and you died, it's your fault. You can't blame the tank or the healer if you don't know your own limitations.

Chamenas
03-04-2010, 01:27 PM
In that situation at the end, you did do something wrong. You pulled before the healer was ready. Next time, if you think the idiot DPS is going to pull, let him. Then it will be only his fault that he or anyone else died. If they say "where was the tank" you say "the healer wasn't ready".

Quinafoi
03-04-2010, 01:51 PM
I think I should clarify a little more about my post.

The DPS in the original post did it wrong. It was there mistake. I'm agreeing with the original poster's statements. My post was to try and shed some light on DPS pulling aggro and the mentality DPS should have towards it.

"I screwed up, I need to correct it."
That is the general mentality DPS needs to have. If they can't get themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into in the first place, it's their fault for not understanding their limits. You should never have to rely on others to clean up your mistakes, that is when those mistakes can lead to the entire group failing. People need to take responsibility for what they do.

I am a DPS. If I pull aggro from something, I'm now a tank. My job is to survive (every class has survival tools at their disposal). I can't rely on the other tank to taunt it back, I have to handle it myself. I can't rely on the healer being able to heal me through the damage, I have to avoid taking damage. The general problem out there is people don't admit their mistakes. They never learn from them. And they continue to repeat them. Admitting the mistake is the first step, once you realize it is your fault maybe you'll have strong enough character to deal with it yourself.

Responsibility and Accountability
Responsibility... I am responsible for pulling aggro.
Accountability... I am now accountable for the mob aggroed on me, I have to deal with it.

Lynnx
03-04-2010, 10:26 PM
Every tank ends up dealing with over anxious dps at some point while using the dungeon finder. If im dealing with a dps that isnt assisting or is pulling noob mistakes ill let them die plain and simple. Im not the type to sit there and just let something stupid happen all the time due to my own laziness, but im also not going into hardmode raid style tanking for 5-man pugs either. If the person gets offended, starts screaming profanities at you, and drops the group be at peace with the knowledge that a tank's next instance queue will be instant while they get to sit there twiddling their thumbs.

Fledern
03-04-2010, 11:52 PM
Hmm i'd suggest the OP did wrong - by keepign quiet. When it's obvious mr go-go-dps is a problem, you speak up. And you speak by saying, "either you behave, or you find another tank". You get queues instantly, they'll have to wait 20 mins for another shot - they WILL listen. And they'll be polite.

KnThrak
03-06-2010, 06:11 AM
Like I always tell them:

It is my fault if you stand there twiddling your thumbs because you cannot attack due to my low TPS.

It is your fault if you overaggro because you continued to attack anyways.

The Hoof
03-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Friendly Competition (never applies to random pick up group tanks)
If you know each other, anything goes. Throw down the gauntlet and challenge your friend. In a controled case, actually challenging yourself will lead to self improvement. If you want the tank to get better at what they do, you need to push them to the next level. The same goes for the DPS. A little friendly competition can go along way to improving your skills. In the same regard, don't get yourself killed doing so, no one likes repair bills.

I LOVE this kind of competition. I've been on both ends of it (dps & tank) and it is so useful in testing and improving your skills in a controlled situation. Sadly, in my current guild there aren't very many players who both understand the concept of this kind of play or are able to step up to the challenge.

refrick1
03-10-2010, 07:49 AM
As a relatively new Raiding warrior I can only agree with you. Unfortunately there is no requirement for maturity before getting into the game and lots of players throw out comments that should be ignored or that player should be ejected from the instance. In one case I made a quick comment "healz pls" and got a very earned blast from the healer. Something like "if you are going to stand in the poison Im going to let you die every time" I quickly apologized. Healers have a really tough job - the team should help the healer does that job

Akiira
03-16-2010, 01:03 PM
In that situation at the end, you did do something wrong. You pulled before the healer was ready. Next time, if you think the idiot DPS is going to pull, let him. Then it will be only his fault that he or anyone else died. If they say "where was the tank" you say "the healer wasn't ready".

I have been caught up in the same frustration as the original poster and after putting up with it for a while and everything being 100% "your fault" even though you hate the group you still try to do better, and keeping up with that antzy dps would have been a better move. Healer may have been ready, just not close enough, lockouts happen all the time. and through all of this commotion and bull crap group you don't stop to think of what the right thing to do at the right moment would be....

Anyways, my favorite thing to do is either blame the healer (if they are to blame, which is not often) or blame the dps...... DPS it is almost ALWAYS your fault, you just don't stop to think of WHY it is your fault..... ooooh ooh oh! my favorite thing to tell a dps as well is one simple fact "you dps are a dime a dozen" ALWAYS pisses them off hahaha! /leave party

refrick1
03-22-2010, 07:46 AM
If this dps warrior can chime in again. The healer(s) in this game are superb. They appear to be taken for granted - a big mistake. The all too frequent jabs at the healers and then back at the tanks and dpsers are not all that necessary. Common courtesy goes a long way

woodyman
03-22-2010, 09:14 AM
i find it easiest to make sure that its obvious that the dps is the one being stupid and allow them to tank what they pull.
that way usually the rest of the group will get behind you rather than blaming you for it.

i think every tank has had the "its your fault" treatment at some point
if i can be bothered then i explain how it is not
if i cant i just leave
and if it is my fault i apolagise

Valalvax
03-23-2010, 02:36 PM
The problem with "letting the DPS tank what they pull" is normally speaking they won't hold aggro on everything, then aggro will be everywhere and the healer or another DPS might become a casualty

Prucilak
03-24-2010, 06:50 AM
I had this same problem the other day, I was on my pally with his uber-leet 2400gs (1100wh gs). I get called fail. Whatever. I go through, hold aggro for the most part and we go through without a wipe. I tell them Ill be AFK to use the bathroom and when I come back 30 seconds later, the original jerk called me fail again. I politely reminded them I could replace the group in 4 seconds. I just started chain pulling and finished the instance.

Mačl
03-26-2010, 04:02 PM
If you as a tank assume full responsibility for the success of a goup you might be to bat-sh*t scared to join the LFG tool for badges because you might get some awkward instance like HoR.

I myself am busy gearing my rogue. If I open a fight with Shadow Dance and a couple of Ambushes and 5 point finishers and forget about tricks of the trade then even in my measly welfare equipment the best equipped warrior tank wouldn't stand a chance.

If some blockhead thinks it's best to open a fight with heavy AoE then let him have it.
If you accept full responsibility and accountability of every situation that goes slightly Whoooops then you will gain only this bouquet of roses I've just imagined.
So yeah, you pulled every trick in the book(that you have read) and it wasn't enough. Do as DPS does in such a situation. Blame it on addons, your ISP, turnip, whatever and get on with it.

Weasle out, I say.