View Full Version : help with bloodprince council plz
03-03-2010, 05:02 AM
Hey guys, on Monday and Tuesday (yesterday) my guild and I have been trying out blood prince council, but without any luck. here are the world of logs (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sa5p6bq1fs19zpwi/). If anyone knows what it is we are doing wrong from looking in there please give me some tips :)
We can't get a full "rotation" on, we never got the same prince more then once.
Otherwise, here are the different strats we used:
Me (DK tank) tank keleseth, druid tank the other two guys (Valanar and Teladaram).
Warlock tank Keleseth, druid tank Valanar and I tanked Teladaran.
On both strategies we had everyone spread out, on strat (1) I had to move around getting the purple orbs thus making raid damage with empowered shock vortex.
On both strategies we left the hunters pet on the beach ball (Kinetic bomb) it worked well, even though I sometimes got a bit scared when it was getting too low and icy touched+death coiled it.
if you got some tips onto what we can do to make the kill happen, please inform me :)
03-03-2010, 06:42 AM
Your log shows 5 attempts, most not lasting very long and seemingly mixing those two methods. So my first advice to you is: pick one method and stick to it for a bit.
We've always used 2 tanks + 1 warlock tank for this, but go with whatever you feel suits you best. Have your warlock throw on a bit of stamina/pvp gear when you are learning if you go that route, as it will let you survive a mistake that would otherwise be a wipe (even if it isn't strictly necessary).
- spread out evenly when Valanar (shock guy) is empowered. Group up a bit when Teldaram (disco ball guy) is empowered. Be especially careful of splash damage attacks (multishots, heart strikes etc) when Keleseth (shadow lazer guy) is empowered.
- Have a good plan for empowered disco balls. For example, have your ranged group up directly between the boss and the door and instruct whoever is targeted to run to the door.
- If your resist tank is having trouble getting the orbs, have someone else assigned to help him get the furthest ones. A mage that can ice lance one on the far side and bring it across for example.
- If your Keleseth gets empowered on the first switch, be careful of agro.
- When Keleseth is empowered and it's almost time for the switch, have melee move towards Taldaram slightly early, in case he does an early discoball.
03-03-2010, 07:19 AM
What would you suggest if your raid makeup usually never consists of a warlock? I am also a dk tank, and we use a paladin and a druid for the other two bosses. The limitation is really the shitty range on our attacks compared to that of a lock. I am pretty sure we have every other class BUT locks in our guild though. Any other suggestions for tanking Keleseth? How well do you think a boomkin in stam gear would fare? We tried it out with a mage a few times, then swapped to me, but even with the same amount of balls, the empowered shock lance still seems to hit me for like 6-7k more than it did the mage.
(I do have a warlock alt, hoping i dont have to resort to getting stam gear on him and swapping him in for only that fight)
03-03-2010, 08:04 AM
Your log shows 5 attempts, most not lasting very long and seemingly mixing those two methods. So my first advice to you is: pick one method and stick to it for a bit.
yeah, I told that to the other guys, and now seems like we will do only warlock tanking. But we decided to give professor a shot now, and once professor is down, we are gonna go back to the princes and see how that goes ( the logs from the day before that shows 15 attempts, but the info is useless there... many silly wipes).
03-03-2010, 08:08 AM
Most ranged classes can adequately tank Keleseth. Some classes/specs have nice damage reduction abilities that certainly help.
Tanking Keleseth is probably the hardest part of the encounter because not only do you have to maintain aggro you also need to run around like a madman collecting orbs whilst avoiding everything else.
03-03-2010, 08:45 AM
In my personal experience having a ranged tank is more trouble then its worth in 10 man. It's still a viable strat and if your raid comp allows for it more power to ya. However in the 3 10 man's that I run with my alts I find that more often then not simply having a DK run around and get orbs leaves a much bigger margin for error. A warlock that acidently looses his stack during an Keleseth phase is almost instantly dead, a DK that looses it has a variety of cool down's to hit.
All in all either one works. I just think that because the fight has a decent amount of "chaos" to it with things happening that you can't always control. Having some one in plate taking the hits is probably the best way to go, but at any rate the thing with this fight is practice. Pick one person to do the orbs and stick with em. It doesnt matter what class they are so much, its more of the person behind the keyboard.
03-03-2010, 08:51 AM
Yeah we haven't really had much of a problem with it other than simple raid awareness mishaps. It usually comes down to people stealing my orbs somehow. We have had our paladin tank on Valanar, but I think it may be a good idea to move him to Teldaram so his consecrate doesnt grab the orbs as much, although in doing that, it would put the druid tank there swiping and mauling them in. How viable would it be to pull them off to the right wall, leaving the entire room open for dps to spread out and cutting down on accidental aoe on the purple orbs?
03-03-2010, 09:40 AM
I'll throw my 2cp in here.
I have an alt DK tank that runs one of my 10 man groups weekly, and have been working and successfully training 2 other dk's to be the "ranged" tank for the encounter for other 10 man groups in my guild.
I'm not going to advocate the benefits of having DK's tank compared to others. I'm simply going to state how I myself do it and how I have trained 2 other dks to do it successfully. Taking Keleseth is a 3 step process, and you need to really iron out Step 1 before you work on Step 2.
Step 1: ORB MANAGEMENT
I myself can consistently keep around 6-7 orbs on myself at all times often having to wait for more to spawn to pick up. This takes the majority of your Dk's practice and learning to get right.
There are only two abilities when grabbing orbs that a dk is going to use. ICY TOUCH and DEATH COIL. I personally and instructed my other dk's to save death coil for the harder to get to orbs. I try to make sure I and they stay on the left side of the room for the majority of the fight. So if an orb spawns to the right side near where the other two princes are usually tanked I use death coil for those. You have to learn to fire and forget. Shoot the Orb one time and assume its going to come to you.
Occasionally, a healer may get heal aggro, when this happens I use an ICY TOUCH + DEATH COIL if it comes it comes if it doesn't forget it and move in. Some helpful but not necessary tips, use NAMEPLATES, and have your camera zoomed all the way out. You really dont need to see your character that much opposed to seeing more of the room for new orbs.
Step 2: Threat
After you can consistently maintain 5-7 orbs for the bulk of the fight its time to move on to threat. Note** It's entire possible to beat the encounter without ever having dps'ed keleseth ** Now for threat this can be a tricky balance to maintain high threat while orb hunting. Usually, starting the fight I don't even budge off of keleseth till im at 100k threat. Use some cooldowns to smooth out the damage at the beginning but you should be in no immediate danger of an early death if your healer is mindful. After my intial threat, I run around and grab 3-4 orbs then work on keleseth in 30-40k threat chunks. Omen helps to meassure this if needed. If you have trouble at first have a rogue ToT or a hunter MD on every cooldown so you can focus more on orb managment.
When Keleseth is empowered I usually call for dps, but make sure melee understands to not use any AoE ability or multiple target ability. Yes their dps will suffer, but them ripping 3-4 orbs off you and getting you killed cause you can't mitigate the shadow bolts is obviously much worse. Now is a good time to sit in there and work on some dps and threat, cool down usuage like IBF or AMS is great for these times.
Step 3. The little things
By little things I refer to Kinetic bombs, Empowered Shocks, Empowered Infernos ect. Once you can maintain some decent threat throughout the fight, I generally have about 500-600k total threat by the time we kill them, and can maintain your orb management its time to help out your raid. First dk's are great for those "oh S*hit Kinetic Bomb" moments. Since all your doing is running around range dpsing Orbs anyways.. throw an extra icy or death coil on some bombs to help our yoru ranged.
As for Empowered Shockwave, very simply, when its being cast stop moving and stand still. That's it. You won't die in the 4 seconds it takes the cast to fire and resolve. Running around during it will likely cause you to chain the shock to someone that otherwise was sufficent spread out till you came along.
As for Empowered Inferno, if your raid is tanking Taladarm on one side(my guild favors him tanked on the right side of the room), your ranged should be running to the left so ppl and bleed of stacks. The Dk keleseth tank is great at this. One, your not taking much damage if you have mastered step 1 during Taladarms empowerment. Two, your AMS is more then enough to mitigate any of the AoE splash damage that the Inferno targets going to deal when the ball hits them. Three, your already running around so why not chase a ball.
Wow, sorry for the long reply hope this helps any aspiring dk's who are trying to get the finer points to taking up this role in this Blood Council encounter.
03-03-2010, 11:22 AM
Our normal 10m setup is me, a pally tank, and a warrior tank with 2 main heals, 2 off heals in the form of a druid and a pally, and then 2 melee dps and 2 ranged dps. I tank Keleseth since Hand of Reckoning can be used at 30 yds to collect orbs. My fellow warrior tank takes on both of the other guys. As noted before I run around constantly like a madman collecting orbs the whole time dodging the junk that gets thrown down on the floor like the shock vortexes.
We've killed BP now 2 times and found that 4 healing it is the safest method along with me tanking Keleseth. A few reasons why:
* There really is no enrage timer to worry about. In most of our failed attempts was due to knock backs killing the warrior tank putting him out of range of heals. Yeah, it's a bit overkill but steady dps by staying alive is what kills junk :)
* Keleseth tanking for a pally is about as good as using a range. When he's not empowered he's at 0 hp which means you can use Hammer of Wrath every 6 seconds to build threat. Throw up Shadow Resist aura if you don't have a priest buff, and then the huge HP pool means you can go all the way to just 2 orbs and survive. The only down side is that AoE dmg to the orbs is faster when Keleseth is empowered and you got to be extra careful to pick up new orbs as you kill the ones you got at the same time. I'm sure the same could be said for a DK tank on Keleseth.
I like the fights in ICC that make you think outside the box a little to find the right makeup to kill stuff. This one and Valithria I find to be quite fun.
03-04-2010, 11:15 AM
I play an Spriest that has been tanking this 10/25 man last 3 weeks now. The key that really pulled it together thou was during empowered me talking to my healers was all that was needed. During certain empowerments theres a different "team" talking on vent for us keeping ppl informed, thats what has helped us the most.
03-06-2010, 10:20 AM
Druid tanks are quite nice to tank kele too. My group has been having some trouble with this fight, but keleseth is not the reason. I just charge up to him when we engage, tank him to 5 stacks of lacerate, which is around 100k threat, then use a combination of melee hits and fairie fire to get nuclei. I can get 7 or 8 if I want but I generally switch back to building aggro at 5. One of the advantages of being a Druid is that I have 63k hps raid buffed. Even if I drop to 2 nuclei, I can pop cooldowns and be spam healed through the empowered part, though I never let myself go under 3.
03-07-2010, 01:28 AM
With a proper spec devoted solely to tanking Kele a warlock is a good choice, a mix of anti-magic talents and execute abilities give over 40% damage reduction before orbs and some nice threat since Kele is in execute range for pretty much 2/3 of the fight. Demonology into Decimation picking up soul link (glyph) and 10% magic reduction when using felpuppy then into Destruction to pick up Nether Protection (which will proc near 100% of the time). I also throw in more hit rating and CoE on Kele since you won't have a Moonkin to do it for you.
What your warlock will lack in health compared to a normal tank they make up for in damage reduction.
The key thing we learnt is this is a survival fight. If your Kele tank whoever it is loses aggro to a dps, its the dps-ers fault. If your raid lacks the damage to beat the enrage timer without holding dps to help the Kele tank then you've done well to get where you are. Slow and steady wins the race. Our DK when we had him tanking it found threat a larger issue. Orbs should never fall to the ground as they are main priority for ranged dps over dpsing the boss, (not to say they shouldn't dps the boss ofc).
The only other thing which has caused problems, albeit on the 25 man, were Taldaram's orbs. The weaker version are just that, weak and require no real action. Contary to what others have said, the empowered ones don't require any special movement from anyone other than their target. The melee will naturally soak some as will some ranged. As long as it's target runs away from it they should never be killed by it.
Focus on staying alive and slowly but surely you'll get the bosses down. Your dps race will come after.
04-02-2010, 11:56 AM
Veneretio the other day in a twitter post mentioned that he used the 2 tank method and no ranged (warlock etc) tank for Keleseth. I know he is a warrior, but do not know waht the other tank class is. Our guild runs 2 warrior tanks and I am wondering how hard tanking is for a warrior on Kele. Very few "ranged" attacks on longer timers (other than taunt) for agroing the orbs seems like a lot of running to melee them to get them to attach. Our guild has been stuck on this fight for a while and I want to build some confidence that we have built around a newly acquired Holy Pali that has renewed some spirit to the runs. We have historically had problems with our ranged tank (warlock) as he is not the most experienced raider in the bunch and I want to help get around this fight...
Any experience from warrior tanks on Keleseth?
04-02-2010, 01:16 PM
My guild use two tanks, me (warrior) on Valanar and Teldaram and our paladin on Keleseth. Our set up is 2 tanks, 3 heals and 5 dps and with me looking like an HP trampoline the extra healer in the group makes a big difference. We have tried to 3 tank it with a warrior, paladin, hunter combo and it has worked once or twice but if your hunter tank falls then you will wipe.
The biggest key(s) to this encounter is raid awareness and communication. Dont try and rush the fight or you will wipe every time.
04-02-2010, 01:59 PM
Hello all. My guild has this on 10 reg and 10 heroic. We use two traditional tanks. Myself (warrior) on 2 bosses and a DK tank on the shadow bolt boss. Granted I am pretty well geared, but it works great for us.
For heroic (and I assume regular if you are having trouble), its all about orb management. You get that, you win the fight.
You can send hunter pets after orbs in regular. In heroic, they come down too fast and need more damage to keep em up.
04-02-2010, 03:23 PM
We used to 3-tank this, now we're down to 2tanking it. The whole trick to 2tanking it is healers handling the initial damage. As the fight starts, both tanks are going to be taking really fast damage spikes but once things settle down, damage will smooth out and tanking 2 bosses at once isnt that hard at all. After talking with the healers, it seems they prefer minding 2 targets instead of 3 too.
For warrior tanking keleseth, it's tricky. I tried it twice, i managed the orbs but i was lacking on threat. I'm sure with a little more work i could get it right. True, warriors lack many ranged attacks but as long as keleseth isnt empowered, you can use your gun to get orbs (plus all your other abilities can do significant damage to the orb, you dont want that) You'll suffer some pushback but since keleseth isnt a fast hitting melee boss, it's not that bad.
04-05-2010, 06:19 AM
Well to answer my own question above about warriors, it was a lot easier to manage the orbs than I imagined. I was able to get just about as many orbs as I wanted due to the damage ticks being almost non-existent in my armor and health pool, and threat did not seem to be a big deal at all. In our run last night, we made 7 attempts with a 3 tank setup, never getting them below 50% health. Then we swapped to a 2 tank (double warrior) setup and after 2 attempts for me to just get the feel of the orbs and threat, we downed the Princes on our 3rd attempt. The healers were also very happy due to the easy of 2 versus 3 tanks.
04-08-2010, 06:47 PM
Time to pay it forward (since I got some great advice on another thread)
Just to add to what has been said already, this is a survival fight. Think of it this way. For 10-man, 5 million health + 10 minute enrage timer = roughly 8.5k raid dps to beat them. So if you sneeze on them the right way, they will fall. It's just about getting the mechanics down, handling the orbs.
Any ranged class can successfully tank them. As hunter, I just pile on my PvP gear loaded with Stam gems and spec BM for extra healing plus hawk-eye for extra range (so I don't have to run as far) and away I go. Ranged tank needs to be on the ball for purple orbs.
For the 3-tank setup, its better to have a Holy pally, since they should be able to keep two tanks up, thanks to BoL. It may depend on their gear as well. That leaves you with one healer for the ranged tank and the other healer on the raid.
Hope this helps.