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View Full Version : Tanking ICC geared Death Knight tank's and expertise.



Saintoftaint
02-28-2010, 03:00 AM
I'm a blood Dk tank as my main spec and I have always tried to maintain 35+ expertise with expertise food. I recently have gotten Cryptmaker which I really want to use it but the gear I have collected so far puts me at 22 expertise without food buff and soft cap with it, I was using Ramaladni's Blade of Culling which had me at 34 expertise unbuffed.
What I'm curious about though is I have been looking at some of the top guilds in the world the ones who use Blood Dk's as tanks and a common theme I'm seeing is there unbuffed expertise way below the soft cap of 26. I have seen one who's expertise was 11, Which from everything I have been told in the past is just stupid, I also have seen a couple of others who where below 15.
I'm constantly trying to balance out expertise, hit and the other stats for my tanking sets and I have always believed you should never be below the softcap ever. Yet Dk's with the same spec and nearly equal gear whom have done much harder content then I have are way below it..
Are they not getting parried alot and having there threat plummet? I'd like to know what the deal, It would really make juggling my gear around much easier if I didnt have to worry about expertise so much.

Edit: I'm using armory to look them up, Is possible there just wearing item level gear to make there WoW heroes score higher?

Edgewalker
02-28-2010, 09:28 AM
Hit is more important to any sort of tanking death knight in the long run, and threat is such a trivial thing with ToT and MD nowadays that it should always be at the bottom of your list.
It's simply not possible to maintain good amount of expertise without using a specialized gearset.

DeusX
02-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Probably they have empty GCD's in their roations => being parried or dodged is no big deal for them, since it does not consume runes. Also, the fact that Rune Strike cannot be parried or dodged, remaining threat generator, helps.

Molecule
03-01-2010, 01:08 AM
Expertise just isn't that great a threat stat for DKs (at least blood DKs; I'm not sure about Frost). For me, if I'm tanking something where I'm getting meleed constantly, about half my threat comes from things that expertise doesn't apply to (e.g. Rune Strike, Death Coil, Icy Touch).

Like Edgewalker said though, threat really isn't something to worry about in ICC gear. If you are having threat issues and your DPS don't outgear you horribly, you should probably be taking a look at your spec and what abilities you use while tanking. Gear, enchants, and gems, should typically be gotten with survival in mind, and without regards to threat.

KnThrak
03-01-2010, 01:45 AM
For Frost and Unholy it's even less important because one has a bigger reliance on spell-based attacks. If one tree should value it it's Blood - and like Molecule said, it's already forgettable as Blood. :)

Satorri
03-01-2010, 07:31 AM
Hit is more important to any sort of tanking death knight in the long run

Even when Expertise offers double the chance to hit per point as Hit rating below the soft-cap?

Or did you mean for the sake of not missing Taunts? (which occurs to me is more likely as I type this)



To the OP, the value of Hit and Expertise are not on overall threat so much as reliability. As Edge pointed out, with TotT and MDs, and the design of gear, it is not needed to stack Hit or Expertise to get the overall threat numbers. That is why you won't see "top" tanks obsessively gearing for either. The one value that the stats give you is the peace of mind that when you go to hit your target you will.

It is also worth pointing out that it does not require a special gear set, gems, or enchants to be both hit-capped and expertise soft-capped in ICC, depending on how you pick your gear. It is only a matter of whether or not you take the stats or dodge them for more survival stats *or* whether or not you see the items in question.

Also, this would be more appropriate in this forum: http://www.tankspot.com/forumdisplay.php?175-HALP%21-I-need-advice
Please be conscious of the rules when posting.

Edgewalker
03-01-2010, 09:06 AM
I actually meant for taunts, for rune strike, and for (upcoming) IT. When 3.3.3 hits there will be virtually no situations where a parry wipes you, but a lot where an IT or taunt miss will. Or at least cost a needless death.

Proletaria
03-01-2010, 09:49 AM
I always attempt to maintain the dodge cap (26 exp), but i've been a little behind in some gearsets. Not a big deal with only Sindragosa and Deathwhisper parry-hasting, but i'd rather not see marginal threat losses when my hunters and fury warriors have an easy time pulling aggro already.

Edge... taunt miss? Deathgrip never misses and there is little reason to use dark command instead (maybe Valithria if things get crazy and you're spamming taunts). I can see a missed IT post-patch really sinking your expected threat, but I don't think we want to spell hit cap and spec morbidity to the detriment of all expertise just because of the IT buff.

Edgewalker
03-01-2010, 10:30 AM
I'm not really advocating either. I have 150 HR and 17 expertise, and threat is still trivial. My post was poorly worded, I should have said that 277 and 264 gear is loaded with hit instead of expertise, and you might as well be happy with the hit instead. The only situation where burst threat matters is Valithria, Marrowgar, and HM Deathwhisper, and IT (Hit) and DnD is a much more important factor there, at least in my experience.
Either way though, it's hard to justify worrying about threat stats too much.

Proletaria
03-01-2010, 07:13 PM
I'm hating spell deflection so much at the moment i'll probably spec virulence post-patch. =/ (Morbidity in my last post was a typo) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcErVh0IcbobssxhxZzgh

Dreadski
03-01-2010, 07:15 PM
Short answer: Hit and expertise are secondary to stamina and armor. If you need to taunt, use the glyph (no one said you can't carry stacks).

Saintoftaint
03-02-2010, 02:47 AM
Even when Expertise offers double the chance to hit per point as Hit rating below the soft-cap?

Or did you mean for the sake of not missing Taunts? (which occurs to me is more likely as I type this)



To the OP, the value of Hit and Expertise are not on overall threat so much as reliability. As Edge pointed out, with TotT and MDs, and the design of gear, it is not needed to stack Hit or Expertise to get the overall threat numbers. That is why you won't see "top" tanks obsessively gearing for either. The one value that the stats give you is the peace of mind that when you go to hit your target you will.

It is also worth pointing out that it does not require a special gear set, gems, or enchants to be both hit-capped and expertise soft-capped in ICC, depending on how you pick your gear. It is only a matter of whether or not you take the stats or dodge them for more survival stats *or* whether or not you see the items in question.

Also, this would be more appropriate in this forum: http://www.tankspot.com/forumdisplay.php?175-HALP%21-I-need-advice
Please be conscious of the rules when posting.



Sorry, I didn't realize this was the wrong forum, I was in hurry the day I posted this. As I mentioned though in the above post I'm not spec'd differently and our gear is relatively the same. I just throught it was odd to see them well below the softcap, When the 95 frost badge chest and the t10.25 legs with expertise food would have them at the softcap. My goal was always to maintain 35+, I do not have problems tanking in ICC 25 I'm just constantly trying to look at other Dk's who have achieved more then I have to see if I could be doing something different to improve my play. Anyway thanks to everyone for answering the question and linking the other forum which should be an interesting read.

Acidbaron
03-02-2010, 03:29 AM
I personally do throw a few hit rating/stam gems and expertise/stam gems in. Although with this patch i'm only falling a bit short on hit at the present plenty of expertise on gear.

But i only put it in a few sockets, such as yellow ones where the socket bonus is stam and i didn't recently had to dump a big amount of defense to grab an offset piece.

Superworm
03-03-2010, 08:11 PM
In progression tanking nowadays, threat should be the least of your concern. What expertise is valuable here is that it reduces the chances of parry gibbing. However I believe someone has confirmed that only Deathwhisper could be parry hasted. So I would gladly exchange expertise for some mitigation or avoidance stats.

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 10:55 PM
Sindragosa also parry hastes.

Leucifer
03-05-2010, 02:47 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize this was the wrong forum, I was in hurry the day I posted this. As I mentioned though in the above post I'm not spec'd differently and our gear is relatively the same. I just throught it was odd to see them well below the softcap, When the 95 frost badge chest and the t10.25 legs with expertise food would have them at the softcap. My goal was always to maintain 35+, I do not have problems tanking in ICC 25 I'm just constantly trying to look at other Dk's who have achieved more then I have to see if I could be doing something different to improve my play. Anyway thanks to everyone for answering the question and linking the other forum which should be an interesting read.

Meh. Semantics. It'd be "the right forum" had you simply worded it differently.

Let's approach it from a mechanics point of view.

At what point is a trade-off between hit/expertise and your damage output capability simply not worth it?
Yes, we all want to be hit-capped and expertise soft-capped. Simple matter. If I can guarantee that 99.9% of my hits will land, that maximizes my dps/threat by ensuring that I have efficiency. However, compare that to an individual who let's say has, a 95% chance of their hits landing, but does 200 more dps. Over the course of 100 hit attempts, let's say a hit every 3.3 seconds, what kind of numbers would we see? Let's use some real simple math.

Toon A - 4000 dps, 99% hit rate ......... Toon B - 4200 dps, 95% hit rate

In our example, we have 330 seconds in order to get our 100 attempts in. Toon A will hit 99 times (statistically) for 396,000 total. Toon B, hits 95 times, but lands 399,000.

Yes, this is overly simplified, but it reflects a valid reality. How much hit % can Toon A afford to give up? I'd say it depends on what items are critical to your build. That Tier 10 piece that give you a lot of tank stats but carries with it hit rating? I'd likely try to keep that. That weapon that doesn't carry a hit bonus, but does a SIGNIFICANT amount of damage more? I'd pick that up unless it significantly adversely affects my hit rating .

Compare:

Citadel Enforcer's Claymore (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=50761)

vs

Quel'Dalar, Might of the Faithful (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=50048)

Which would you rather have? I'd have to say the one that compliments the rest of your gear accordingly. If I'm hit-capped already from my armor, I'm going for the weapon that provides expertise and more damage. If I'm not hit-capped, I'll go for the weapon with the higher hit rating, and maybe switch out a few gems to lower my score back near the cap and make up some of the damage loss.

You can get caught up in the "best in slot" discussions. They're fantastic. They're also slightly pointless unless you have or are working to complete the full assortment of BiS gear. I would say you need to consider the following:

1) What is my purpose? Tank or DPS? Are you ALWAYS tanking? Or is it part time?
2) What is my current gear set-up and what are my strong points/weak points? Take a look and understand what you have and the realistic upgrades.
2) What am I likely to acquire? Be realistic! My guild raids on a very hit-n-miss schedule. Chances of me landing every BiS piece for my tank build is small. So I'm going to talk it over with my guild leader, some of my counterparts and say, "Hey. If we run Lord Marrowgar, and Citadel Enforcer drops, I really want it. Just so you know." Put it out there. Maybe some dps'ers also want it. Talk it over. Decide ahead of time who will roll on what. Make a deal. We'll keep running boss X every week so we can get everyone geared. Have a strategy. "Hey. I'll pass on X because Y would be better for my build."

In the end though, you have to understand the relative value of each stat and how it interplays with the other stats that impact or influence it. Hit rating is awesome.... unless your hits simply hit like fluffy pillows. Remember, these caps are ideals. They are not "must haves". It's the synergistic effect of all the components that deliver the end result, most importantly being, the skill of the player.

I honestly can say, I've seen more than a few times, people with better gear scores who just don't perform when you get down to it. Maybe they don't have their rotations down. Maybe they have a bunch of GREAT gear, but they're a DK who has tank gear with "block" on most of the pieces. That's why it drives me bat-shit crazy when someone demands a gear score on a raid.
Gear score may only give an idea as to how good of a loot ninja they are. Maybe that person with a lower gear score is an accomplished tank coming in back off a layoff. Run them through a few instances, and build them up so they can deliver, and bam... you now have a great main tank.

So, I rambled a bit at the end there, but really.... again, this is a valid mechanics discussion so far as I see it.

EDIT:

Notice, I didn't delve into threat.

Here's my one quick note in regards to threat....
If you miss a hit.... how do you compensate for that lost amount of threat? Is it followed up by a big hit that re-seals it on you as a tank? Do you use a specific tool like Rune Strike with extra threat assigned to it? Or.... in a worse case scenario.... does that missed hit allow the mage that is currently blasting a target for insane amounts of damage to finally rip agg off you? In which cases is this most likely?