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rokknoker
02-25-2010, 04:58 PM
My guild has been recently trying to kill festergut on icc25 we are not hardcore or any thing special when it comes to raiding and we aint trying to be, we raid casualy and that works for us, so any way recently we have been giving festergut a shot on 25 and we cannot beat the enrage timer here is the logs of our 2 most recent attempts(that we have logs of, i forgot to log it last time we went) so are we wasting tim here or can we do it also is there any major drama's that we need to address?


http://worldoflogs.com/reports/tj1p9r085982k7qk/

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rzm4314ql7yhetzx/


i know this is a very open question but i semi intended it that way as a new pair of eyes on a situtation is often needed, also please dont say '<player name> dps sucks ass replace him and you'll do it' as that is not an option.


Rdgs
Rokk

Casper7526
02-25-2010, 11:19 PM
You should give your strategy as to what you are doing as well. Personally easiest way to set up normal mode is to just have 8 people at range (make then 2 healers and 6 dps), everyone else stand at melee.
Your frostnova player is low on the meters for 1 reason, which you could prolly help them out with, it looks as if he's going oom from not letting his stacks drop (mage). So we see him at 5k dps , but his actual dps is much lower and his damage could be much higher.

Other than that, your dps seems fine though a bit low. Try to lower the amount of movement by stacking people in melee and try popping heroism at the very start for festergut.

Also with your 8 people at range, they need to spread out and be 10 yards apart until spores come out, then have 3 spore groups. 1 is melee (make sure they stand underneath the boss) and 2 ranged groups that people move into then back out after spore explodes.


-=-IN SHORT-=-
Execute a better strategy and you'll be fine.

Quinafoi
02-26-2010, 12:09 AM
Bottom line, your DPS is insufficient.

You require 135,000 raid DPS to beat the berzerk timer. Assuming 2 tanks, 6 healers, 17 dps and tanks doing about 5000 dps because of their damage buff, the rest of the dps needs to average about 7300 dps per person. Melee in particular should be doing more since ranged will be less efficient given required movement and daze duration. You only have 6 people doing over 7000 in the better of the two attempts. 10 of your DPS were beaten by your tank, granted the tank gets a damage buff but still DPS should beat the tank regardless. You had one player die early which doesn't help the cause. You had 3 melee DPS that failed to break 7000 DPS, much of the burden of the encounter is on melee. You had 8 ranged DPS all fail to hit 7000 DPS. Your raid is about 20,000 DPS short of being able to kill the boss. You need to basically look at all those people doing in the 5000s for DPS and figure out on a case by case basis and figure out what they need to do to get their DPS up to over 7000 DPS.

In a nutshell, if you can't do 135,000 DPS on Deathbringer Saurfang, where you typically will run with even fewer healers, you're not going to pull it off on this guy. Target switching does have a toll on DPS however movement has a more significant toll, especially on the ranged.

Here are some estimations as to how efficient a ranged DPS will be based on spec. These estimations do assume the person will be dazed an average of 7% of the total fight duration as well as if you are required to move movement will also be about 7% of the fight (collapse and expand for 6 spores).

Shadow Priests operate around 95% efficiency. Can ignore the movement aspect, doesn't need to collapse ever unless they have the spore.
Hunters operate around 93% efficiency. DPS suffers less from short term movement based on the cooldown duration of their instants.
Mages and Warlocks operate around 92% efficiency. Mages can ignore collapsing for one cycle with ice block. Warlocks can negate half movement cost with their teleport.
Balance Druids operate around 83% efficiency. DPS suffers heavily by movement, slightly better than Elemental if they time their DoT renewals to coincide with movement.
Elemental Shaman operate around 82% efficiency. Their DPS suffers most significantly by movement.

If you run with more than 7 ranged, you want to have some of them in melee. Being in melee means you likely never have to move and will never be dazed (efficiency goes to 99-100% of your actual DPS). Generally speaking since Balance Druid and Elemental Shaman suffer the most from the mechanics, by my estimates 17-18%, the one of those with the higher DPS would be the one you'd want to move into melee. Reason being is if a shadow priest is already operating at 95% efficiency but does the same DPS normally as the other hybrid, the shadow priest only gains 4-5% more efficiency. Also with this same idea in mind, those specs which suffer more from movement are the ones you'd be more likely to have standing in the place where the ranged would collapse to so they themselves can negate some of their efficiency loss by not being required to move.

When my 25 man first hit Festergut the first week it came out, we were only doing about the same DPS your raid is doing. It took like 4 or so weeks go get DPS up to the point required to kill Festergut. Our order of kills was Blood Prince Council (which wasn't released until two weeks later), Rotface then Festergut.

Muroku
02-26-2010, 06:57 AM
Drop down to 5 healers, and It will help significantly. We do fine with 5 every week.

LogisticSaucer
02-26-2010, 10:49 AM
A few minor details that may help, although honestly I didn't check your logs so you may have done these:

-Flasks / food for all. This should be a given.

-Ensure you've got all the significant buffs / debuffs

-As others have stated, if necessary, keep only 8 players out.

- Have your rogues tricks badass DPS

-Make sure each of the classes at range are using their "tricks" to limit DPS loss. These were listed in detail earlier in the thread by Quinafoi.

Quinafoi
02-26-2010, 11:10 AM
-As others have stated, if necessary, keep only 8 players out.

You only require 7 targets at range for 25 man. An 8th is only a cushion in case someone dies. For a raid learning the encounter, one person dying likely will be a wipe since you may not have sufficient DPS without them. This raid in particular is currently quite a bit short on DPS in its present state, losing someone isn't an option so your strategy may as well minimize the number of ranged targets (7 only) because if any of them die you won't beat the berserk timer anyway.

LogisticSaucer
02-26-2010, 01:04 PM
All valid points, quinafoi. I think generally though, even with the lost dps I'd still keep the cushion and rely upon a BR if he / she goes down and attempt to tighten up elsewhere before dropping the 8th. Later on when they're more comfy I'd feel safer dropping the 8th.

Quinafoi
02-26-2010, 01:14 PM
All valid points, quinafoi. I think generally though, even with the lost dps I'd still keep the cushion and rely upon a BR if he / she goes down and attempt to tighten up elsewhere before dropping the 8th. Later on when they're more comfy I'd feel safer dropping the 8th.

Most druids will not have BR glyphed (glyphing/specing for improved death means your raid expects to fail). You can't accept a BR before the boss blows up, you are short on innoculation stacks to survive it and may not be able to survive it. You can accept it after, however are highly likely to die almost instantly from a gas tick. It is very difficult to successfully time accepting a BR. While you can do it, your strategy should not account for people dying in the first place. If you can't heal them through the damage their taking the first time, you won't be able to heal them through it when they have no buffs.

Not trying to discredit the idea of battle resing, by all means go ahead. But the problem remains, the person should not have died in the first place and if you can't resolve that problem they will likely die again.

LogisticSaucer
02-26-2010, 01:42 PM
But the problem remains, the person should not have died in the first place and if you can't resolve that problem they will likely die again.

Very true. I guess, anecdotally, I found when we were first learning this that poor healer coordination lead to inappropriate deaths (i.e. healers not healing). However, through cooldown usage, we were always able to keep our battle res recipients (victims?) alive through the blight explosion / gas cloud ticks. I suppose his decision will ultimately be based upon the capabilities of his raiders. If his healers are like some of his DPS I'd probably also suggest to stick with 7 and not BR.