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View Full Version : Death Knight Pestilence Glyph and Proc vs. Reset Disease Timer



Leucifer
02-23-2010, 09:39 AM
Ok. Got my wires crossed.... had to come back and edit this.......

Does the slow effect reset/proc with pestilence if you have Glyph of Disease in regards to Improve Icy Touch?
It's already been shown that it doesn't with Icy Talons. http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50887#comments

So... unless you're deliberately hitting with IT, are you going to see the effect?
Or will this proc with Pestilence with the Glyph of Disease? Or does the Glyph really truly work just to "reset the timer" on the diseases? Everything I'm reading says it just resets the timer on the diseases.

My follow up question is now this.....Is it worth losing the frost/death rune needed to reset the buff/debuff when it can be used for Death Strike/Obliterate/Scourge Strike? For a dps build..... I say no. For a tank however?.......... My take is, chances are, someone else in the raid has already smacked the target/boss with a similar effect.

Thoughts? Ideas? Observations?

Edgewalker
02-23-2010, 05:04 PM
Right now it doesn't, and it won't until the next patch.
Glyph of Howling Blast DOES reset the cooldown however.

As for being a tank, you might as well get used to never using the Pestilence glyph again. You will lose a glyph slot and TPS at a very minor DPS gain.

vine
02-23-2010, 05:23 PM
With the upcoming threat change to Icy Touch it might increase overall TPS to use IT in a regular rotation.

Leucifer
02-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Thing is, for a frost tank build, using howling blast takes away from obliterate as it's a FU pair.
The frost tree even has a bonus talent in it that just begs you to use pestilence (Blood of the North).
That handy tool paired with Glyph of Disease allows you to stack both diseases again, well, extend the timer anyways, and gives the gift of a death rune.... which is ALWAYS lovely and effectively gives a "free" frost rune. Throw in the talent that prevents Obliterate from consuming diseases and again, I'm drawn back to the point of wanting to avoid Howling Blast if at all possible.
From that angle.... frost seems to be a very nice tree for dps'ing to me. Get a nice stack of diseases going, crush the target with Obliterate.

I do see what you're saying though. For a tank, to keep this buff up, slapping Howling Blast every 20 seconds to re-proc FF would work. Added bonus..... "snap" aggro on any mob packs. For single target.... simply throw in IT now and then. I see your point. So, for a frost tank build, works nicely. It's really a variation on the warrior talent Shockwave.

Problem is.... and I wasn't clear about this.... I run a blood tank build (as do a LOT of us).
For the blood tank.... this pretty much makes this a single target talent. Good for boss fights. Not so much for mobs.
So as vine points out.... work into rotation. Still a useful tool I guess.

The Glyph of Pestilence (Extends range by 5 yards), really, for a minor glyph, is a fair choice I think. Let's face it, most of the minor glyphs beyond that one and Horn of Winter are not terribly useful. DK's get the real bang for the buck out of the major glyphs. In fact, only a few classes really have minor glyph choices that are truly meaningful (see: warriors). For a blood tank though, I think it's marginally useful as it helps with "cruising" threat. That extra reach can be nice if I'm prepping to blood boil to solidify my threat.

...... Looking back at this now, I feel like I'm arguing with myself. :confused:
Just seems like DK's are just fractions off from being a tank or dps build based on a few talents.

It leads me to thinking, if you have dual spec, why not build two "tank" builds?
Blood for single target tanking/dps....
Frost for multiple target tanking/AoE ?

Blood Tank/DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMVhhIsbRbssxhxZ0gh

Frost Tank/DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EM0hZhxxxA0czf0buzAo0x

Run most of the instance in frost to control mobs....
Swap to blood for tanking the boss.

I mean, honestly, let's face it, we're not the tank that a pally or warrior is. We don't carry shields. We don't have some of their
cool toys. I mean hell, BOTH warrior and pally have tools to redirect damage from other party members AT them. We specifically choose a tree for the type of talent that makes us LESS squishy and to stave off incoming damage, and even then, those tools just make us competitive.

Why not be the tank is notorious for being a killer?... and not just the damage sponge? Why not be the tank/dps hybrid?
I'm beginning to think that part of the problem is, being added in after warrior/pally, everyone expects us to tank like a
warrior or pally, even ourselves to some degree.

On a final note: I laughed last night because a pug member said they love DK's cause we're really ret pally in disguise. lol

Satorri
02-25-2010, 06:26 AM
The value of Glyph of Disease is not in terms of raw threat, the gain (currently) will be pretty small in that respect. The value is in convenience, juggling, and refreshes (particularly with adds joining the fight).

I haven't tested it, but I'm fairly certain that it is only Icy Talons that is not being refreshed by the glyphed refresh (as the debuff is being applied by the application of the debuff *by* IT/HB not the debuff itself, and as mentioned they're fixing that). Imp Icy Touch changes FF itself, so it doesn't matter how it is refreshed it doesn't change Frost Fever.

Satorri
02-25-2010, 06:42 AM
Thing is, for a frost tank build, using howling blast takes away from obliterate as it's a FU pair.
The frost tree even has a bonus talent in it that just begs you to use pestilence (Blood of the North).
HB use does not detract from OB, but depending on your play style and weapon choice you will often enough only use it when you get a Rime proc (which doesn't cost an FU pair). Blood of the North does not *beg* you to use Pestilence, it just makes it so you aren't punished for using Pest instead of BS. If you don't need to spread diseases BS is always the better thing to use on those Blood Runes (unless you need the AoE threat).


That handy tool paired with Glyph of Disease allows you to stack both diseases again, well, extend the timer anyways, and gives the gift of a death rune.... which is ALWAYS lovely and effectively gives a "free" frost rune. Throw in the talent that prevents Obliterate from consuming diseases and again, I'm drawn back to the point of wanting to avoid Howling Blast if at all possible.
You have it backwards. OB always consumes runes, HB does not on Rime procs. Actually part of the problem with using Glyph of Disease with Frost is that you don't even gain what you do with Blood in terms of extra runes. Using Pestilence at best will only gain you a BS/BB, but at worst will inhibit using more FU pairs which you are fond of. =)



The Glyph of Pestilence (Extends range by 5 yards), really, for a minor glyph, is a fair choice I think. Let's face it, most of the minor glyphs beyond that one and Horn of Winter are not terribly useful.
Don't forget Blood Tap which is great as a tank, albeit small (as all minor glyphs are, Warriors included).


Just seems like DK's are just fractions off from being a tank or dps build based on a few talents.
Such is our design, though the swing is closer to 20-25 talent points depending on spec.


It leads me to thinking, if you have dual spec, why not build two "tank" builds?
Has been done, and is done. =) I'll tell you how it worked out for me too. Using any tank spec with a decent dps gear set will do good but not competitive dps (obviously).


Blood Tank/DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMVhhIsbRbssxhxZ0gh

Frost Tank/DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EM0hZhxxxA0czf0buzAo0x
Both specs have little wonkinesses, but I won't go picking them apart here as that's not really appropriate.


Run most of the instance in frost to control mobs....
Swap to blood for tanking the boss.
The switching becomes tiresome enough that if you are good with either spec you can do everything without taking the time to flip back and forth. If you want to there's no reason not to, just remember to reapply Frost Pres. =)


I mean, honestly, let's face it, we're not the tank that a pally or warrior is. We don't carry shields. We don't have some of their
cool toys. We specifically choose a tree for the type of talent that makes us LESS squishy and to stave off incoming damage, and even then, those tools just make us competitive.
o.O
We're all the tank that they are, just different. As you said in your last sentence, we take tools to be on par (some have complained, better), and we have as many if not more cool tanking toys. I wouldn't mind having a version of Hand of Sacrifice or Intervene, but I don't think you're saying we need that to be as good a tank? (And all Pallies have HoSac, not just tanks)

Proletaria
02-25-2010, 11:50 AM
@Leucifer (specs)

Blood
Improved Blood Presence is a huge waste of talent points for what is essentially a negligible fraction of a death strike in health per hit.
I would also highly reccomend subversion, a point in Scent of Blood, and 1-3points in Sudden doom over your points in Spell Deflection and Mark of Blood (both of which are situationally, but not universally helpful).

Frost
Death Rune Mastery... I would reccomend you avoid that.
Again, i'm a fan of at least 1 point in Scent of Blood, regardless of spec.
No Frigid Dreadplate? Definitely pick that up.
Icy Talons/Imp Icy Talons is debatably useful. I suppose if you need it, you need it, but usually you don't.
Killing machine doesn't need to be 5/5, in-fact since the proc changes i'm not sure i'd put more than minimal investment there.
No epidemic is fine for 5mans, but if you are going to try and sustain threat on a raid boss, you're going to want the increased plague duration so you can pull off a two-disease rotation fully.

Fathom
02-25-2010, 01:02 PM
I haven't tested it, but I'm fairly certain that it is only Icy Talons that is not being refreshed by the glyphed refresh (as the debuff is being applied by the application of the debuff *by* IT/HB not the debuff itself, and as mentioned they're fixing that). Imp Icy Touch changes FF itself, so it doesn't matter how it is refreshed it doesn't change Frost Fever.

Last time my frost dps guildie looked for me (month or two ago) he reported that IIT was refreshed by Pestilence while running GoD. Though I've just taken his word and haven't doublechecked myself (since I don't run GoD myself).

Fathom
02-25-2010, 01:12 PM
No epidemic is fine for 5mans, but if you are going to try and sustain threat on a raid boss, you're going to want the increased plague duration so you can pull off a two-disease rotation fully.

I think this is overstating things. Even as a 2h frost tank (with all the lower threat that implies) I've never had any threat issues without epidemic. Perhaps it's necessary for dps without threat reduction at very high gear levels, but I'd be surprised.

various caveats: This is my experience on single target fights for dps up to the 7-9k range, by 'very high gear levels' I'm thinking dps pulling 10k+. By not having threat issues I don't mean I don't have anyone high on the threat meter, but I do mean I have a comfortable 5-10% threat lead, so no melee much beyond 100% threat, and no ranged beyond 115-120%. I'm also assuming non-stupid use of things like Misdirect/Vanish/Mirrors, etc. but not dps reducing crap like cower/feint.

Leucifer
02-25-2010, 02:54 PM
First, I gotta say, love the responses from both Satorii and Proletaria. Edumacational!!!!!! :D


HB use does not detract from OB, but depending on your play style and weapon choice you will often enough only use it when you get a Rime proc (which doesn't cost an FU pair). Blood of the North does not *beg* you to use Pestilence, it just makes it so you aren't punished for using Pest instead of BS. If you don't need to spread diseases BS is always the better thing to use on those Blood Runes (unless you need the AoE threat).
Good point..... Can't argue a thing there.



have it backwards. OB always consumes runes, HB does not on Rime procs. Actually part of the problem with using Glyph of Disease with Frost is that you don't even gain what you do with Blood in terms of extra runes. Using Pestilence at best will only gain you a BS/BB, but at worst will inhibit using more FU pairs which you are fond of. =)
Again. Good point. And yes, I am very fond of my FU pairs cause they seem to be tied to a lot of our best tools.


Don't forget Blood Tap which is great as a tank, albeit small (as all minor glyphs are, Warriors included).
Well, with the tier 10 DK set, blood tap becomes another damage mitigation tool, and in that case, you have very little excuse not to have this Glyph.


Such is our design, though the swing is closer to 20-25 talent points depending on spec.
Yeah, I'm learning that.


Has been done, and is done. =) I'll tell you how it worked out for me too. Using any tank spec with a decent dps gear set will do good but not competitive dps (obviously).
Well, here's my question, do you mean "competitive" as in "not going to be top in the dps charts" or "competitive" as in "not able to significantly contribute"? I've found myself recently in heroics accidentally ripping agg off the main tank in my dps build. The real fun one was last night in Pit of Saron and Forge of Souls.

On that same point.... another thing I'm asking myself is, is the extra bit of survivability worth it in a nasty fight? I have three basic rules for runs:

1) Whoever pulls it, tanks it
2) DPS dies to save a tank or healer
3) Keep the healer and MT alive

I've actually ended up tanking in my dps set when a MT crumpled. I survived because the blood spec gave the healer some cushion, I was able to hop to frost presence fast, and well..... I just had a shit hot healer with me. I always did some OT "duty" while dps'ing, just makes stuff easier on the tank sometimes, but that was one where I had to jump in to save us fro ma wipe.


Both specs have little wonkinesses, but I won't go picking them apart here as that's not really appropriate.
Feel free to. I was just sharing an idea. I'm not going to QQ.


The switching becomes tiresome enough that if you are good with either spec you can do everything without taking the time to flip back and forth. If you want to there's no reason not to, just remember to reapply Frost Pres. =)
Good point. I really just need to pick a good tank build and learn how to use it effectively and understand the abilities and limitations of it.



o.O
We're all the tank that they are, just different. As you said in your last sentence, we take tools to be on par (some have complained, better), and we have as many if not more cool tanking toys. I wouldn't mind having a version of Hand of Sacrifice or Intervene, but I don't think you're saying we need that to be as good a tank? (And all Pallies have HoSac, not just tanks)

No. I don't think we need that to be as good. It's a very different style of tanking though. My buddy I think summed it up well today, as he has experience tanking in all three.

Pally = Passive tank
Warrior = Reactive tank
DK = Active tank

The idea I'm getting at is actually something you touched on earlier. If you took a warrior tank, pally tank, and dk tank, dropped them into dps gear in their tank specs, I'd be willing to bet the dk would out-dps them both. The idea that all three trees can tank, so long as they pick the right talents, and all three can dps.... I think we, as dk's, have the ability to blur the lines between tank and dps, whereas the other two classes MUST make a spec change to do that. Like I said, I have had to pick up the "tank" role on the fly when things went bad in some runs, and it's worked out surprisingly well. I'm just wondering what the class is really capable of when specced right.

Leucifer
02-25-2010, 03:18 PM
@Leucifer (specs)

Blood
Improved Blood Presence is a huge waste of talent points for what is essentially a negligible fraction of a death strike in health per hit.
I would also highly reccomend subversion, a point in Scent of Blood, and 1-3points in Sudden doom over your points in Spell Deflection and Mark of Blood (both of which are situationally, but not universally helpful).

Frost
Death Rune Mastery... I would reccomend you avoid that.
Again, i'm a fan of at least 1 point in Scent of Blood, regardless of spec.
No Frigid Dreadplate? Definitely pick that up.
Icy Talons/Imp Icy Talons is debatably useful. I suppose if you need it, you need it, but usually you don't.
Killing machine doesn't need to be 5/5, in-fact since the proc changes i'm not sure i'd put more than minimal investment there.
No epidemic is fine for 5mans, but if you are going to try and sustain threat on a raid boss, you're going to want the increased plague duration so you can pull off a two-disease rotation fully.

Hm... and good points.
Subversion and Sudden Doom I both like. The design of that spec, the idea I had in mind was again single target tanking, where the DK in question would be more likely to take direct spell damage and would possibly be able to reduce some of the load on the healers if needed with Mark of Blood.

The frost spec.... I'll be honest, a lot of that tree doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. When something says "have a chance"....
yuck. Flat out yuck. Why not give a percentage? Looking it up, it appears to be 5 procs per minute on AUTO ATTACKS ONLY.
I've always just felt the frost tree was lackluster, but howling blast is such a NICE thing to have.

Agree on your final point. I like to keep up a two-disease rotation at all times. I think the damage boost is well worth it in any case. When I miss on a disease, I can usually tell pretty quickly because the damage doesn't look right, hitting too soft, and usually on a quick glance, I find that plague strike didn't drop its disease (hit). It's that much of a difference.

vine
02-25-2010, 03:28 PM
When I miss on a disease, I can usually tell pretty quickly because the damage doesn't look right, hitting too soft, and usually on a quick glance, I find that plague strike didn't drop its disease (hit). It's that much of a difference.
I have MSBT set up so that any missed attack/spell shows up much much larger: MISSED. Very useful for missed taunts as well.

Leucifer
02-25-2010, 04:23 PM
I have MSBT set up so that any missed attack/spell shows up much much larger: MISSED. Very useful for missed taunts as well.

*sigh*..... You guys are gonna call this sacrilege.... but I have absolutely zip add-ons. That's why I said I can tell quickly cause the damage doesn't look right. After running a bunch of heroics in my current gear, I've developed a good feel for the toon. Usually within a few seconds, I'm looking and going "wtf?....." and a quick glance at the target reveals the missing disease. Usually happens when I've had to move around a lot to avoid pointless damage, like Ick's puddles of green slime or whatever it is.

I need to get new UI's loaded up, but I keep having issues with the computer locking now and then, usually in Dalaran. Hardware shouldn't be the issue as I'm running a Q9450 on a X48 mobo with 4gb of DDR3 and a ATI4870 vid card. Reloaded all drivers and even flashed the BIOS. And honestly, I'm getting a little tired of the WoW peeps telling me to delete my WTF, Cache, and interface files. IT DOESN'T HELP and in fact made it worse this last time.

vine
02-25-2010, 04:37 PM
It's not sacrilege, but there a few baseline addons that make tanking a *lot* more intuitive. ThreatPlates, MSBT, and a Threat meter like Skada/Omen. Anything above that is purely cosmetic.

Satorri
02-26-2010, 05:38 AM
Well, with the tier 10 DK set, blood tap becomes another damage mitigation tool, and in that case, you have very little excuse not to have this Glyph.
There is no good excuse *not* to use Blood Tap constantly without the 4 pc set bonus. Even in Blood spec where we constantly are using single-rune abilities there are *always* still open GCDs that can be filled with a HS instead of a DC or nothing at all. With Frost the amount of double rune spending is so extensive that you have very long gaps and it is well worth your while to be able to throw in additional ITs or what you might need (like PS if you're glyphing HB). Blood Tap is a *very* valuable skill to master as a tank or dps DK, and as a tank the Glyph seems rather valuable if you're not going to have any penalty, no matter how small, for using it.



Well, here's my question, do you mean "competitive" as in "not going to be top in the dps charts" or "competitive" as in "not able to significantly contribute"? I've found myself recently in heroics accidentally ripping agg off the main tank in my dps build. The real fun one was last night in Pit of Saron and Forge of Souls.

On that same point.... another thing I'm asking myself is, is the extra bit of survivability worth it in a nasty fight? I have three basic rules for runs:
If you have Subversion it should be very hard to pull threat off the tank unless you are careless about picking your targets. I have a DK alt focused primarily on DPS and with Subversion (~50% threat reduction) I pull 4-6k dps in heroics and while I may right the edge on spikes I don't pull threat. Most DPS specs will get Subversion just by nature of climbing into the Blood tree, but if you're dpsing with a Frost tanking build you probably won't get it (but you also won't do as much damage which should be its own threat mitigation).

To answer your question though, you can totally contribute relative to your gear and skill with the class. *But* here's the philosophical divide. If you are usually a tank and want to dps, it is not a big deal to throw on dps gear and switch out of Frost Pres. It won't be ideal but it will do well enough if you have the gear to support it. If you have two specs and you plan to almost always tank, that is where you can do this in a raid when you just aren't needed to tank on a fight here or there. If you are regularly tanking *and* dpsing, just carry a spec for both. Why?

Hybrid spec'ing nowadays is a little silly. If you try to ride the line between the two, with the way the DK trees are constructed, you will be a weak tank *and* a weak dps. If you're planning to do both frequently enough, use the dual spec system and carry a spec to support each. It's probably worse still to have two specs and to not have either *really* support either option.





The idea I'm getting at is actually something you touched on earlier. If you took a warrior tank, pally tank, and dk tank, dropped them into dps gear in their tank specs, I'd be willing to bet the dk would out-dps them both. The idea that all three trees can tank, so long as they pick the right talents, and all three can dps.... I think we, as dk's, have the ability to blur the lines between tank and dps, whereas the other two classes MUST make a spec change to do that. Like I said, I have had to pick up the "tank" role on the fly when things went bad in some runs, and it's worked out surprisingly well. I'm just wondering what the class is really capable of when specced right.

The main reason that DKs can do this though is not about specs particularly though, it has a *lot* more to do with our resources system.

Warriors rely on two primary sources of rage = damage taken and damage dealt. They also get support from talents based on tree (Arms gets improved rage per damage, Fury gets improved rage per hit, and Prot gets rage for being a tank, i.e. dodge/parry/block). If you take a Prot Warrior and put them in dps gear they can do pretty decent dps but the major limiting factor is actually that they don't generate rage as well and/or they are not as efficient (depending on spec) when they don't have the wealth of rage from getting hit.

Paladins rely on their mana. Mana they get from Divine Plea (can be maintained regardless of being attended or not), Spiritual Attunement (mana from healing, no healing needed = no mana), and being a tank (like Warriors, dodge/parry/block via BoSanc). Their mana gains are balanced to have two of those factors, and their moves are too expensive generally to be sustained by Divine Plea alone. A Protadin can open up with the best damage they can do but they will run out of mana relatively easy and have trouble sustaining what a prot spec *could* dish out.

As DKs one of our biggest assets is our Rune system. We do not *need* to be attacked at all to put out most of our damage (and a bit less threat than the damage loss from lack of RS). So, if we swap to damage gear we can just plug away and do just fine. That said the 20-30 talent point swing will still cap our potential. As an idea, my main DK has a dps set that has built up over time. When I dps'd in my tank set I could do rather well, but comparing that to my dps spec I have now, it was about 30-40% less damage output purely for talent choices (considering though that my tank spec is a bit towards the survival end of the survival/threat balance).

So, can we get better dps in tank spec? Yes. Does that mean we should *try* to blur the edges? Why? As I said above, if you are expecting to dps enough, just take a dps spec. If not, yes, your tank spec and dps gear will do just fine to have you switch and let the other tank tank.

Satorri
02-26-2010, 05:41 AM
On addons, I think as much as I would have a heavy adjustment period to not having many of the addons I have, the one and only addon I absolutely can't imagine having as a DK is a Rune tracking addon.

The default UI Rune tracking is so awfully small, hard to watch or notice, and not in an intuitive place to look that it rather inhibits my ability to spend runes smoothly unless I just sink into my rhythmic method. Even then, I like to be able to check my status to keep it grounded.

Leucifer
02-26-2010, 09:59 AM
There is no good excuse *not* to use Blood Tap constantly without the 4 pc set bonus. Even in Blood spec where we constantly are using single-rune abilities there are *always* still open GCDs that can be filled with a HS instead of a DC or nothing at all. With Frost the amount of double rune spending is so extensive that you have very long gaps and it is well worth your while to be able to throw in additional ITs or what you might need (like PS if you're glyphing HB). Blood Tap is a *very* valuable skill to master as a tank or dps DK, and as a tank the Glyph seems rather valuable if you're not going to have any penalty, no matter how small, for using it.
Good point. Death runes are always a good thing to have up.


you have Subversion it should be very hard to pull threat off the tank unless you are careless about picking your targets. I have a DK alt focused primarily on DPS and with Subversion (~50% threat reduction) I pull 4-6k dps in heroics and while I may right the edge on spikes I don't pull threat. Most DPS specs will get Subversion just by nature of climbing into the Blood tree, but if you're dpsing with a Frost tanking build you probably won't get it (but you also won't do as much damage which should be its own threat mitigation).
I've found a few moments where, even with subversion, I'm still able to rip agg if I get stuff really rolling. Rune of Fallen Crusader procs, plus the +200 strength from my trink, and a couple crits and pop goes the aggro. Only happens momentarily, but still.


answer your question though, you can totally contribute relative to your gear and skill with the class. *But* here's the philosophical divide. If you are usually a tank and want to dps, it is not a big deal to throw on dps gear and switch out of Frost Pres. It won't be ideal but it will do well enough if you have the gear to support it. If you have two specs and you plan to almost always tank, that is where you can do this in a raid when you just aren't needed to tank on a fight here or there. If you are regularly tanking *and* dpsing, just carry a spec for both. Why?
Yeah. Guess you're right. This really kind of hits the main idea I was driving towards and answers it. I could definitely see having two different tank builds as between the trees, there is enough difference to make one better suited for certain types of encounters. Like for me, from my perspective, frost seems much better at snap agg and pulling larger groups of mobs, unholy is good for cruising agg but a little slow to build up, and blood seems ideal for single target tanking. But you're right, for me, having one dps build and one tanking build is probably the best route. But like you said, for someone who is almost always tanking, two builds


Hybrid spec'ing nowadays is a little silly. If you try to ride the line between the two, with the way the DK trees are constructed, you will be a weak tank *and* a weak dps. If you're planning to do both frequently enough, use the dual spec system and carry a spec to support each. It's probably worse still to have two specs and to not have either *really* support either option.
Yeah. It's really tough to look at the lower parts of two talent trees and build something really effective. There's just too many great talents to reach for in the upper half of all three trees.



The main reason that DKs can do this though is not about specs particularly though, it has a *lot* more to do with our resources system.

Warriors rely on two primary sources of rage = damage taken and damage dealt. They also get support from talents based on tree (Arms gets improved rage per damage, Fury gets improved rage per hit, and Prot gets rage for being a tank, i.e. dodge/parry/block). If you take a Prot Warrior and put them in dps gear they can do pretty decent dps but the major limiting factor is actually that they don't generate rage as well and/or they are not as efficient (depending on spec) when they don't have the wealth of rage from getting hit.

Paladins rely on their mana. Mana they get from Divine Plea (can be maintained regardless of being attended or not), Spiritual Attunement (mana from healing, no healing needed = no mana), and being a tank (like Warriors, dodge/parry/block via BoSanc). Their mana gains are balanced to have two of those factors, and their moves are too expensive generally to be sustained by Divine Plea alone. A Protadin can open up with the best damage they can do but they will run out of mana relatively easy and have trouble sustaining what a prot spec *could* dish out.
Right. Both of these classes are so dependent on a limited resource. Their ability to do anything is limited by a resource that potentially can "flame out". Agg gets ripped off a tank.... rage happens to be low.... things have just gone south. Same with a pally low on mana. Agg gets ripped off them for whatever reason, the problems will start. Their ability to produce damage, and thus threat, is limited in that capacity.



As DKs one of our biggest assets is our Rune system. We do not *need* to be attacked at all to put out most of our damage (and a bit less threat than the damage loss from lack of RS). So, if we swap to damage gear we can just plug away and do just fine. That said the 20-30 talent point swing will still cap our potential. As an idea, my main DK has a dps set that has built up over time. When I dps'd in my tank set I could do rather well, but comparing that to my dps spec I have now, it was about 30-40% less damage output purely for talent choices (considering though that my tank spec is a bit towards the survival end of the survival/threat balance).
Agreed. We always have a steady supply of resources inbound. Sure, runic power fluctuates during a fight, but for us, that's just another tool. Where the other classes need to work to maintain their resources, warriors needing to keep rage going and pallies needing to keep mana refreshed, we essentially have a "limitless supply". We just have to wait a few moments on a cool-down. Where the other two classes it seems, need to get a head of steam to get going right, we don't. On the flip side, once they get up to full speed, they're usually rockin', whereas we need to pay more attention to timing. We're "less spikey" and more level.

I'll have to take a look at your builds and see what you're running with. Really curious to see where the talent shift is exactly. There are certain talents that I look at and label as "must haves". Like for blood spec, heart strike, blood gorged, might of mograine/improved death strike (I prefer death strikes for the survival aspect over obliterate. Great damage output and nice returns.), veteran of the third war.... talents like that have such a fundamental boost to what a DK is, how do you skip them?
Talents I don't care for, like Killing Machine, and generally anything that generates runic power (which I view as a secondary resource, it's there and use it when I can, but I tend to try and keep it loaded up for "oh shit" moments since IBF and anti-magic shell relies on it), and anything that affects auto-attack only (necrosis come to mind), these kinds of talents are where I cringe or think "Isn't here something better I can devote talents to?".


So, can we get better dps in tank spec? Yes. Does that mean we should *try* to blur the edges? Why? As I said above, if you are expecting to dps enough, just take a dps spec. If not, yes, your tank spec and dps gear will do just fine to have you switch and let the other tank tank.

LoL.... Ok. You win on that last one. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should, or that it's a good idea.

Part of it all is, I've yet to find a tank spec that I really love. I love the single target goodness of blood tank. I also like some of the toys that the frost tree has, but I find this tree harder to pick great talents for.