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View Full Version : 10m hardmode valithria, bring the holy paladin not the player?



gacktt
02-21-2010, 10:04 AM
Is this some sort of sick joke or something? does anyone even have a world of logs report with a kill without a holy paladin carrying 70% of all healing done?

Colonel Mustard
02-21-2010, 11:43 AM
I don't have a log report, but our 10man usually runs with priest, pally, shaman. And the shaman and the paladin are pretty equal single target spammers. I bet a priest with a more greater heal-centered specc could give the paladins a good fight as well. But it's usually not needed since it's easy to do with what you've got.

Starlink
02-21-2010, 12:04 PM
we had shaman pld and druid like healer. Druid was out on raid and othes 2 in the portals. At last shaman and pld did like the same heal (4 mil). We used heroism at 80% with 20 25 staks...the dragoon was full in like 20 30 sec XD

gacktt
02-21-2010, 12:08 PM
I don't have a log report, but our 10man usually runs with priest, pally, shaman. And the shaman and the paladin are pretty equal single target spammers. I bet a priest with a more greater heal-centered specc could give the paladins a good fight as well. But it's usually not needed since it's easy to do with what you've got. Are your priests doing 27k+ hps? normal and heroic is a massive difference, past 5 mins you're already swarmed with adds that have 50% bonus in stats.

Xequecal
02-21-2010, 09:17 PM
Shaman can get very high HPS numbers because Ancestral Awakening remultiplies the portal buff. Paladin Glyph of Holy Light also does this but it has an 8-yard range so you won't get the stupid super-heal numbers if your heal target isn't within 8 yards of Valithra. Shaman always get it because AA has a 40-yard range.

Morg
02-21-2010, 11:20 PM
A good resto druid is also capable of keeping up with paladin/shaman, if they spec and glyph correctly.

Only class that wont smash this kinda healing is a priest (even as GH spec)

gacktt
02-22-2010, 12:20 AM
Top pally vs top druid logs is about 100% vs 60% in world of logs(and about a 30:1 pally vs druid, 2:1 pally vs shaman), so for a druid strong enough to heal us without a wipe, the pally would've done an equivalent of 42,000 hps. We're just gonna swap around gear and specs which is really dumb because it's a must, not just something to make things easier.

Dragaan
02-22-2010, 12:59 AM
Shamans are pretty crazy at this fight too. Our shaman did 50% and pally 40% on our first 10man kill.

Casper7526
02-22-2010, 02:50 AM
We literally just started attempts on it tonight, we did like 2 attempts, both failing pretty early, both with healers losing stacks, but let me tell ya...god I wish we had a holy pally...currently having resto druid/shaman going in portal with disc priest staying out...

PERSONALLY we seem to get overrun by adds much faster then expected.

Oliaga
02-22-2010, 07:59 AM
Spec also matters a great deal - resto druids, for example, normally spec and glyph for raid healing - glyph of nourish, empowered touch, and full nature's bounty are not normally in druid specs, and will make a huge difference.

Also, disc is kinda terrible for this fight, even on the healer staying out.

Colonel Mustard
02-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Are your priests doing 27k+ hps? normal and heroic is a massive difference, past 5 mins you're already swarmed with adds that have 50% bonus in stats.

The hps all depends on how high you can get your stack, and you can still make hardmode even though a healer misses a refresh, which makes me believe that one that does less hps in general, but keeps their stack up, will make it as well. So yeah, I have no doubt one of our priests could pull it off.

marklar
02-22-2010, 04:23 PM
We literally just started attempts on it tonight, we did like 2 attempts, both failing pretty early, both with healers losing stacks, but let me tell ya...god I wish we had a holy pally...currently having resto druid/shaman going in portal with disc priest staying out...

PERSONALLY we seem to get overrun by adds much faster then expected.

shammys do great on this fight, so don't worry too much. also, if you can convince your priest to go holy and glyph GS, it will help a lot.

Kylis
02-23-2010, 01:49 AM
shammys do great on this fight, so don't worry too much. also, if you can convince your priest to go holy and glyph GS, it will help a lot.

seemed like in our 25 man you couldn't GS her anymore.

Dragaan
02-23-2010, 04:10 AM
shammys do great on this fight, so don't worry too much. also, if you can convince your priest to go holy and glyph GS, it will help a lot.

this. GS is huuuuge here (paired with hero).

@kylis: I'm pretty sure we GS'd her tonight on our 25man kill.

Oliaga
02-23-2010, 02:07 PM
You apparently can't chain GS her with multiple glyphed GS's. She's got some funky cooldown on how often it can be applied.

Casper7526
02-23-2010, 02:48 PM
Ok so we were at the end of the week last night, and well couldn't do her on heroic, it came down to many times the shaman/druid combo basically losing their stacks at one point (normally 10-12) they are saying something along the lines of it's RNG, basically some portals they end up taking place them like 50 yards away from an orb and they can't get to one quick enough to continue their stack....soo obviously I'm a tank, I've never gone in...

Could anyone on heroic give insight as to how their healers are handling the inside, stacking together, roaming seperately, I obviously told them they needed to make sure to hit an orb with 1 second left on dream phase, but how much time does that leave you to hit an orb as soon as you enter. Would love some specific timing data if anyone has it.

Colonel Mustard
02-24-2010, 08:03 AM
There's not really much more to do than time the last cloud you pop just as you leave, and to use the portals just as they pop. I think the timings are as follows:

Dream phase: 15 seconds
Emerald Vigor (healing buff): 35 seconds
Portal spawns: Every 45 seconds (45 seconds in normal, think it's 46.5 in heroic)

Which means:
0 Portal spawns
15 Dream phase ends
45 (46.5) Portal spawns
50 Emerald Vigor ends

Leaves a 5 second window for normal, and 3.5 seconds for heroic, not counting lag, it's pretty damn tight.

Aerna
02-27-2010, 07:32 AM
We wiped a lot using disc priest ( main spec shadow ) raid healing, and holy priest + resto druid taking portals. We were overwhelmed quickly ( around 5' ) and it was nowhere near enough to heal valithria above 80%.

We made our disc priest spec back shadow, and our elemental shaman respec heal, and with holy priest raid healing, we were able to survive longer while still providing GS. Shaman + Druid was also stronger to heal Valithria. We don't run with an Holy paladin in 10 man, but seeing the HPS in 25 man, they seems to be very efficient.

The fight was definitely one of the hardest for us so far.


Which means:
0 Portal spawns
15 Dream phase ends
45 (46.5) Portal spawns
50 Emerald Vigor ends

Leaves a 5 second window for normal, and 3.5 seconds for heroic, not counting lag, it's pretty damn tight.

I'm nearly sure there is more time than that in both mode. I think it's more like a 10-12 sec window in normal mode, and a 7-8 sec window in heroic mode.

gacktt
02-27-2010, 08:56 AM
We did very slightly better with an off spec geared pally + priest, 18k + 12k and we had about 10.8m hp in 5ish minutes before it went downhill.

Course if we just brought along our main healer pally(in a diff 10m grp) it would be 25k +18 and the fight would've been over in like 4 and a half minutes. Thanks for the class bias. The +5 vigor duration hotfix was a godsend btw.

Casper7526
02-27-2010, 09:28 AM
Wait, they added 5 seconds to the debuff now?

gacktt
02-27-2010, 09:28 AM
It's 40 seconds now, there was a ninja hotfix that addressed this and also halved the duration of the arcane debuff of sindragosa.

Akeber
02-27-2010, 09:34 AM
What tool are you using to measure these HPS numbers? Because a pally's HPS on recount will look inflated due to being out of the five second the entire time they are in the portals. As an example, my HPS in off spec gear on a normal mode 25 man kill was 33K on recount. WoL showed the same, but my effective HPS (heals divided by the total length of the encounter) were much lower at 17K. Recount only uses the time you spend inside of the five second rule when calculating HPS.

DuRrTy
02-27-2010, 01:14 PM
Is this some sort of sick joke or something? does anyone even have a world of logs report with a kill without a holy paladin carrying 70% of all healing done?

Our 10 runs with a resto druid/shaman and a offspec holy pally, and this also is the line up on this particular encounter; so yes we do use a holy pally. However, I have extreme confidence that we could easily kill this without one as our shaman easily puts out enough hps that our other balance druid could spec resto and we'd do fine.

What is it you're having trouble with anyway? There are quite literally very few things that can screw you on this fight and you havent given us much information on your particular problems. One more thing that I'd like to add(assuming that you don't already know this) is that the last 20% of Vail's life shoots up very fast and lasts only like ~1 minute if your healers don't fail and let their stacks drop.

also, a parse from our second kill.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yltm1pxms6bjg3vx/sum/healingDone/?s=6237&e=6627

gacktt
02-27-2010, 02:48 PM
The adds seem to overrun us which is strange since we easily 5dps fester's hardmode, and how you even do 6 and a half minutes makes me wonder.

We do 1tank/6dps/3healer and the adds are getting pretty dangerous at 4 minutes and above, most wipes are adds or the healers magically getting 21 stacks then dropping dead without a single heal. We have 2 hunters and a lock that usually bombards anything that comes close so they don't take any dps penalty for the lack of tanking, the ret and shaman mostly have 100% uptime on adds as well.

The damage in general at the 4.5-5 min mark(if we don't get a lust by then) gets hard on our solo healer and even if no aoe-frostbolts come out he can still go oom(with double solace) and not be able to keep up, at the rate our healers are going we would have to live up the sixth minute to fully heal her as opposed to some of the same-server logs which ended just before the fifth minute.

DuRrTy
02-27-2010, 10:11 PM
The adds never become a problem for us just harder to deal with sub 20% which, as I stated, doesnt last very long. This is obviously due to us using a second tank(which just seems logical to me) as just using one assumes that the tank is in the middle - which can pose problems. Loss of dps on the adds when they're going to the middle, kicks on the liches(you said your healers are running oom), abom dead on one side spawning rot worms and adds spawning on the other side; pretty much all this can be alleviated by using a second tank.

A tank on either side with 2 dps and adds should never give you trouble, put a interrupt to soldify you healers never going oom. Also, since we run two hunters(one on either side) they lay frost traps and kite tank the Blistering zombies with myself throwing in taunts here in there. In the parse I linked before we wiped due to our healer outside going oom because there wasnt an interrtup on the other side, we put our rogue there and I was easily able to bash each lich; one more thing, I usually drag the adds a little closer to the middle so our druid is never out of range of both tanks, which helps for obvious reasons.

also, tell your healers to not loose stacks :D

gacktt
02-28-2010, 08:12 AM
Was able to finally get it with drui/pally 5ish mins just now, to handle the adds and let us lust 1 phase later I made everyone hit zombies regardless of agro as well as liches, went pretty smoothly, guess we just had to dps hard and carelessly to solve problems.

Tals
03-01-2010, 09:57 AM
We did it tonight in a mere 3 tries with a Druid and Shaman going through portals and a Discipline Priest staying out.

So honestly, with skill, any three healers can do this encounter. That is what "bring the player not the class" means after-all.

KnThrak
03-06-2010, 06:23 AM
Is this some sort of sick joke or something? does anyone even have a world of logs report with a kill without a holy paladin carrying 70% of all healing done?

We ~never have a Holy Paladin, the key here is that you need any tankhealer. Like many said, Shamans are pretty crazy for this fight. *flex*

mistersix
03-08-2010, 10:08 AM
We tend to do priest, shaman, druid on our 10 man VD. The priest is doing 50-60% of the healing.

Coeus
03-08-2010, 12:38 PM
We did it tonight in a mere 3 tries with a Druid and Shaman going through portals and a Discipline Priest staying out.

So honestly, with skill, any three healers can do this encounter. That is what "bring the player not the class" means after-all.

We used the exact same healing comp. It's not really a big deal as long as the portal people don't drop stacks and the outside people are on the ball. The debuff duration increase made the fight much less annoying.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l9nrn7f7je0hl48i/sum/healingDone/?s=9960&e=10299

jstaley02
03-15-2010, 07:06 AM
tbh u summed it up for urself. dps in a strange way have to be careless to succeed. nuke everything, regardless of aggro, and kill it fast. if u have hunters, a slowing trap where u all stands helps greatly as u can kite everything making aggro an even lesser issue (unless ur melee and get spanked by something)

we had our solo out healer running oom, to solve this we let her take the last portal, and the holy paladin (yes we had one) let his stacks drop at about 33. the shaman with us with beacon up on val and spamming MT regardless of vigor stacks was enuf to clear the fight. the reason palas are such a godsend isnt because they nukebomb val, its because they nukebomb the raid whilst val is getting 100% of it, giving the outside healer even less to do.

Trexokor
03-15-2010, 08:15 AM
Wondering on the possibility of doing this heroic mode with 2 healers instead of 3. That is, a druid healing outside and a paladin taking the portals alone.

I've taken a look at some logs and with some min/maxing I should be able to do HPS to end the fight after about 6-6:30 alone in heroic.

However, my concern mainly comes with the damage taken with the debuff. A few logs I've looked at show it has a very high resist rate, with portal users resisting over half of it often enough. This doesn't seem like it's just from 130 Nature resist (totem/aspect), but rather something like BQL's Bloodbolts, which just seem to resist much more often for larger amounts.

At 30 stacks (easily obtainable by 5 or so minutes in) you're taking 6000 damage per second. With no resists, that requires a full heal about every 4 and a third seconds by myself while in the portals, which does not give a lot of time to get the stack much higher.

However, with the resist rates I'm seeing, it'd be closer to 3000 damage per second, which, with a HOT from the Druid before entering the portal each time, ends up being about 6000 damage per 3 seconds, or 30000 damage total inside the nightmares, requiring just 1 or 2 Holy Lights during my time inside. That should let me stack up the debuff closer to 40 before it becomes dangerous, and by then I should be ending the fight anyway.

So I suppose my question is has anyone had trouble stacking the heroic debuff beyond about 30, and has anyone solo healed the dragon on this encounter?

The reason for wanting to two-heal it is that we've been able to do so for each heroic encounter so far, and the rest do not look far off for two-healing (the first 4, Festergut, and Rotface are done, and Putricide hasn't been a healing issue).

Thegreatme
03-15-2010, 09:24 AM
the problem with solo healing the fight is that it means your DPS have to be all-stars in order to not wipe to the soft enrage. keep in mind that the soft enrage is not a static point. the adds spawning ramps up over time. the last minute before the "soft enrage" is pretty brutal and requires some very good DPS to not fall behind on adds.

Tals
03-22-2010, 02:51 AM
Honestly there should be no reason to do this with 2 healers (except epeen I guess), until the enrage the dps aspect of the fight is really easy.