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lesteel
02-21-2010, 12:16 AM
is the use effect applied after or before all mitigation present on your char? i've looked everywhere and can't find a good answer.

krc
02-21-2010, 12:41 AM
The on use is after mitigation.

Brage
02-21-2010, 03:43 PM
Rule of thumb; all "static" mitigation is factored in before dynamic mitigation - use trinkets, procs etc.

Satorri
02-22-2010, 05:00 AM
Rule of thumb; all "static" mitigation is factored in before dynamic mitigation - use trinkets, procs etc.

And to add to that, % mitigation is normally applied before static factors, absorbs, etc.

So
Armor/Stance => IBF/Shield Wall/Divine Protection/Barkskin => Bubbles/Blocks/Corroded Skeleton Key

Darksend
02-22-2010, 04:07 PM
considering armor, stance multipliers, and cooldowns are all multiplicative it really does not matter which order you do them it will always come out the same

Kazeyonoma
02-22-2010, 04:12 PM
end result won't matter, but figuring out what effect each one has, can make a difference especially how % modifiers work in conjunction with armor.

Satorri
02-23-2010, 05:24 AM
% modifiers order won't matter internally, and static reductions (block/absorb) order won't matter internally, so long as it is one then the other.

It has been suggested that block came in a different place in the sequence but no one could prove it, and that would change the final result.

Molecule
02-23-2010, 02:04 PM
It has been suggested that block came in a different place in the sequence but no one could prove it, and that would change the final result.

Well based on how Anub adds work it's pretty clear that (at least sometimes) block gets calculated before damage increasing debuffs. Since based on their motto of having all tanks be viable for everything that's probably not functionality specifically in place for that fight, it wouldn't shock me if block also got calculated before damage reducing buffs. I don't have a block tank so I can't test it personally though.

Satorri
02-24-2010, 05:27 AM
Well based on how Anub adds work it's pretty clear that (at least sometimes) block gets calculated before damage increasing debuffs.

Support? Data?

Block is calculated after mitigation as is evidenced by the fact that you can full-block or full-absorb anything. If Blocks or Absorbs came before mitigation you would not be able to ever take zero damage with them unless you could block the unmitigated hit (which is part of the issue with block as a static value, when the value is high enough you can take zero damage from small hitting trash with Holy Shield/Shield Block).

Molecule
02-24-2010, 12:00 PM
Well block is definitely calculated after armor mitigation. But whether it's calculated after temporary buffs like shield wall or divine protection is another question; it's definitely possible to fully block things without those up so it's not definitive in either way in that regard.

Here is a link to the the damage done by burrowers on my guild's last kill of Anub 25H:

Overall damage done by burrowers:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692

Damage taken by paladin tank:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692

Damage taken by warrior tank:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692

The relevant comparison here is that the average hit dealt about 6000-7000 more damage than the average block. Now I'm not sure exactly what the add tanks' block values are (I can't find a good way to display block value in wow-heroes and they aren't logged out in their anub set so armory is a no go) but based on quick napkin math it seems like their block value should be more on the order of about 2000 (and 4000 during shield block/with critical block for the warrior). So that definitely suggests that the damage increase from Expose Weakness is being calculated after the damage reduction from block. Note that this is a debuff that affects the damage the tank takes, not a buff that affects the damage the burrower deals.

Satorri
02-25-2010, 05:54 AM
Here are some snippets from one of the logs you linked, to help:

Neither tank used any cooldowns, but we can get a sense of normal scale of damage taken.

[23:52:06.705] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) Block (5411)
[23:52:06.966] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 6883
[23:52:07.079] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 6625
[23:52:08.049] Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (7) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:08.261] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 5 (B: 3549)
[23:52:08.261] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 2789 (B: 3549)
[23:52:08.696] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 12054
[23:52:09.141] Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (9) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:09.500] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) Block (5632)
[23:52:10.080] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) Block (5678)
[23:52:17.955] Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692)'s Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) is refreshed by Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:18.251] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 3388 (B: 3812)
[23:52:18.968] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 2111 (B: 3812)
[23:52:48.050] Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (5) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:48.243] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 9252
[23:52:48.393] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Kainteeka (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/3/?s=3215&e=3692) 11248

[23:52:07.909] Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (2) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:08.096] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1146 (B: 3630)
[23:52:08.167] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1563 (B: 3630)
[23:52:08.318] Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (4) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:08.439] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1926 (B: 3630)
[23:52:08.696] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1566 (B: 3630)
[23:52:08.753] Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (5) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:08.926] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 3370 (B: 3630)
[23:52:08.985] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1831 (B: 3630)
[23:52:09.515] Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) afflicted by Expose Weakness (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/spell/67847/?s=3215&e=3692) (9) from Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692)
[23:52:09.640] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 2537 (B: 4238)
[23:52:09.900] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 701 (B: 4238)
[23:52:09.908] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 2344 (B: 4238)
[23:52:57.448] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 10568 (A: 54)
[23:52:57.454] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 12030 (A: 54)
[23:53:03.008] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1797 (B: 4238)
[23:53:03.089] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 3298 (B: 4238)
[23:53:03.276] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 2245 (B: 4238)
[23:53:03.602] Nerubian Burrower (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/161/?s=3215&e=3692) hits Memorabilia (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eu22ujvfv7wtqdzb/details/31/?s=3215&e=3692) 1132 (B: 4238)

It does seem like the hits that are blocked *never* do as much damage as the highest unblocked hits even in sum (blocked amount plus unblocked portion). So, as far as the adds go, it seems the damage buff for the adds does not apply until after block.

That doesn't help us for tools like Shield Wall, etc though, we need some other data for that. Maybe someone has a Warrior or Paladin tanking Festergut? That would have some very large hits, defensive cooldowns used, and blocks that *might* allow for us to figure it out a little better.

Molecule
02-25-2010, 10:21 AM
That doesn't help us for tools like Shield Wall, etc though, we need some other data for that. Maybe someone has a Warrior or Paladin tanking Festergut? That would have some very large hits, defensive cooldowns used, and blocks that *might* allow for us to figure it out a little better.

Yeah, I absolutely agree; I wasn't trying to render a definitive answer to the original question. Just pointing out that there are SOME damage modifiers that work like that.

Molecule
02-25-2010, 11:59 AM
That doesn't help us for tools like Shield Wall, etc though, we need some other data for that. Maybe someone has a Warrior or Paladin tanking Festergut? That would have some very large hits, defensive cooldowns used, and blocks that *might* allow for us to figure it out a little better.

After a bit of consideration, it seems to me like the easiest way to test it would actually be examining relatively SMALL hits. Take a paladin or warrior (they don't even really have to be tank specced, in fact it would be easier if the warrior wasn't so you don't have to worry about critical block) and find something that hits for about twice what you can block. If divine protection/shield wall cause these hits to be completely blocked (or close to it) then they work before block is calculated. If you're still taking damage on blocks, and it's about half the damage you were taking without the cooldown up, it's done after block is calculated.

Brage
02-26-2010, 03:42 AM
Concerning Anubs adds; they're special. Their percentage based modifier gets added after we block, thats the sole reason warriors were so OP'ed compared to other tanks in that fight. Not sure if that was allready covered by the previous poster, so just throwing it out there.
Concerning our own percentage based modifiers - shield wall -, my own experience is that they follow the same pattern as the priest shields; being added before we mitigate by blocking. When going through logs its usually listed as "<Mob> - X.damage done - X.ammount absorbed - X.damage blocked".
From a rational POV this makes alot better sense aswell. If blocks were factored in before absorbs/SW. the intire block mechanic would really be a terribad idea.

Satorri
02-26-2010, 05:53 AM
If blocks were factored in before absorbs/SW. the intire block mechanic would really be a terribad idea.

Ooo careful there.

Before Shield Wall would not be good as it would reduce the value of Shield Wall, though not appreciably where it matters.

Before absorbs on the other hand is true (it seems if you skim the log posted above, you'll find that most hits are full blocked or blocked/absorbed partials, it appears as though absorbs come after blocks) and important because an absorb not used is deferred to the next hit, which preserves the value.