Help with making that tough decision..

[s1lk]

Hi everyone, first time poster but long time reader.

I am here today to discuss a common weakness I have come across in my guild managing experience. How do I handle the bad player problem? Before I go in to depth with my question and unique scenarios I will give you some background on the guild I run.

We are a 25m progression raiding guild established in 2008. We are currently 10/12 in 25 man and run 3 10man groups, with 1 LK kill and 2 others on Sindragosa. I dare to say that management of the guild and day to day operations are clearly defined and rarely challenged. We have a lot of members who have been playing together in this guild for quite some time, but we still recruit new top notch players as needed. I feel that our 25m progression has not been cutting edge because of my own personal weakness. That would be removing(demoting) the bad raider. I don't know that I am cutthroat enough to just kick them, I am hoping to solicit a few ideas or maybe hear some personal experiences you guys may have had. I will explain a few cases and steps I have taken.

Player 1
Pro's: Never misses a raid. Always active on guild forums, irc, in game. For the most part maintains enough of a friendship with everyone in the guild to keep social status up.
Con's: Slow to react to in game mechanics. DPS is low, extremely low for the gear. Always has an excuse for why his game play is poor. Always gets out performed. Only puts in just enough effort.
Actions taken: We have taken the time to specifically outline problem areas and give guidance on how to improve on them.

Player 2
Pro's: A solid gamer, able to get out of fire and avoid the silly mistakes. Performs well when he tries.
Con's: Poor attitude. Causes conflicts with peers. Not always consistent in performance and reliability. Argumentative.
Actions taken: We have already lined out what we needed changed in his attitude and performance.

We have a third player very similar to player 1. They both come back with excuses but never seem to perform.

I'm sure that I will get a response saying "if you want to do better just get rid of them", but like I said, it just hasn't been that easy. The social aspect of the game often makes it hard for me to make these tough decisions even after having made many in the past. It is nearly impossible to just phase them out without outright sitting them. We are not hurting for them to show up to raids and we are an established guild with a solid reputation, enabling us to recruit fluidly. I hope to be able to spur some responses in how to handle these players, these guys who aren't terrible but really just aren't crossing the line of dedication and performance.

Thanks for reading :)

[DarkHorizon]

I totally understand where you're coming from, unfortunately I too have a few guildies with the same problem as number 1. The biggest problem with these players is that with their gear they feel they should be automatically invited to any of the guild raids, but always end up holding back the rest of the raid. It's extremely hard to justify not bringing such a well geared player, especially when the player is very nice and is so sociable to the other guildies. What I have tried is somewhat studying this player's skills, rotation, tree, etc. and comparing them to another player of the same class that does well for their gear, or even referring this player to the better player for help. When it comes to slow reactions what has helped (alteast slightly) was sending them to view videos before the fights, even if they know the fights, even if they know the fights already seeing them again before getting into the raid (especially from the pov of a quick player) helps get them get into the zone. What I'm just now starting to do is record all of my guild's fights, regardless of how easy, to see how these players are moving in the raid and helping give tips after. It's hard to see them throughout a whole fight while doing your job well, so viewing them after really helps. By watching the fight after (just like football players do to see their problems) you can detail exactly what's going wrong and try to fix it that way. Or, if, for example, you see the person during the Lord Marrowgar fight, slow on the switching to bone spikes, tell them to make a macro: /tar bone and tell them to put it on their action bar (or hotkey it elsewhere) and tell them that whenever LM yells "The only escape is death" or "Stick Around" etc. to begin hitting the macro until it is shown and start attacking. I know this won't help in alllll cases but hopefully in some (snowbolds in toc, cats/tentacles in Ulduar).

Post back and let me know if I was any help!

-GM, RL, and Drenden Alliance enthusiast,
DH

[s1lk]

Thanks for the reply. The video idea may be helpful. I would love to be able to convince them to record a video, edit it and upload it. Might be a little wishful thinking there, but I'll definitely try both methods out. Your idea might be a little too optimistic this stage in the game. Not sure if we should just cut our losses... Bringing half a raider sucks!

[zvon]

I feel most guilds have these types of players. First step is to define what type of guild you are, by the sounds of it you are a progression guild. How seriously do your raiders take progression? If the answer is quite seriously then you need to make that hard decision which leaders sadly need to.

One thing you will need to remember is that you are a Leader not their friend. As harsh as that sounds, if you want to continue progression a leader has multiple methods to helping his team, the hard part is which direction you wish to take. If the player has been spoken to multiple times, helped with spec, rotation, playing and all other resources have been exhausted your only solution is to remove the weak link. The problem with the "weak links" is that the other members catch on quickly that they are not up to par with their contribution and slowly will build resentment, particularly if those people are single handedly slowing progression down.

I know I didn't give you any hard stop solutions, however I hope what i wrote helps you understand that you are their leader and not their friend - this line gets blurred more frequently then not, however you always need to step up and be that leader when needed, and yes you can be friendly, don't be a cold hearted bastard :)

[Acheronia]

I would have a heart to heart with them and give them a deadline by which if there's no significant improvement, they will be excluded from raids. Be honest with them and tell them exactly what your goals are and why they are preventing you from reaching those goals. I'm not sure how your guild set up is, but you need not kick them immediately. If their attitude is not too poorly (player 2 might have some trouble), then you're giving them the chance to improve and might warm the bench a bit. They don't get picked for the raid setup and will have to prove to you that they have improved to such an extent that they can join the raiding team again.

[IronHorse69]

Yea know I had the same issue back when my guild was pushing hard through TOC and TOGC back in Sept.,Oct. I mean we geared my RL friend out. Thinking that would solve his problem. I mean we had raided endgame at 70 together so you know I figured he would correct what ever issue he had. I had 4 different conversations with him in private and everything. It didn't work I sat him from raids and everything to try and get my point across and all it got me was 1 of my RL friends G quit on me and I felt like dirt. I guess what I am saying here is, sometimes you have to weigh your options. To me I have set aside hard progression and even took a leave from the game for 4 month's cause of how easy the game has became and the days of having a solid 32 or 50 players to fill raids just isn't there anymore in a lot of guild's.