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dotJEM
02-20-2010, 04:30 AM
Death Knight

Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.

Icy Touch threat bonus in 3.3.3
We wanted Icy Touch to feel a little like Shield Slam -- the big hit you could launch when you need a lot of threat to say grab a recently spawned add. I don't think most DKs will mind having a little more single target threat overall, but we don't want to turn them into a rotation of all Icy Touch. If that happens, we might have to notch the threat down a little more.

Rune of Razorice: Now stacks 5 stacks of 2% Frost Vulnerability instead of 10 stacks of 1% Frost Vulnerability. Proc chance changed to 100%.


Blood

Abomination's Might: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc on certain strikes. Rank 1 is 5% attack power and Rank 2 is 10% attack power. The self strength buff remains unchanged.
Will of the Necropolis: There is no longer a cooldown on the frequency at which this talent can be activated. In addition, this ability can now also be triggered by damage which deals less than 5% of your health.

Will of the Necropolis Cooldown Removal
I think attributing so much power to Will of the Necropolis is one of those consequences of trying to covert everything into effective health. In fact, the reason we took the cooldown off is because we don't think it will be that noticeable.

In the theoretical case where the DK is ping-ponging between 40% and 20% health, it's crazy good (as is Ardent Defender), but those situations don't happen often. (They might happen more in Cataclysm, where it would be nice to see tanks at 50% health for more than a fraction of a second.) Most of the time, Will of the Necropolis is just extra health, which was the case before we removed the cooldown.

We added the cooldown during PTR testing in which we had a Patchwerk who kept stacking his own damage. When he was hitting for 110% of the tank's entire bar, the DK with Will of the Necropolis could survive, and nobody else could. Duh. In retrospect we probably overreacted, since we don't actually make boss encounters like that. You have say Steelbreaker Fusion Punch, but those hits aren't so often that the 15 sec cooldown is the issue.

[...] Seriously though, the only thing that changed on Will of the Necropolis was the cooldown. The health savings were always there. Tanks typically are at full health, avoid every other attack, get hit, and then get topped off. We typically don't hit tanks more often than 15 sec with really big attacks. It will perform as it always has against periodic attacks, including Soul Reaper (which is a 30 sec cooldown IIRC). If the pure melee hits from the Lich King allow DKs to literally take 15% less damage from him at all times, then we might put a 5 sec cooldown on it instead or make it work like Ardent Defender (which only reduces the damage that took you over the threshold). Against most bosses I'd be surprised if you even noticed the cooldown was gone.

Remember, you're looking at current content with current gear and we are forecasting slightly into the future with changes like this.

[...] But like I said, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, we'll add a small cooldown or something back on. I think it's too premature to do that yet.

3.3.3 Will of the Necropolis in the Lich King Encounter
We talked over the WotN change with Daelo and the guys who made Soul Reaper. They're not convinced it will be a problem. When someone trivializes the encounter with an undergeared DK, then we'll start worrying about it.



Frost

Endless Winter: No longer causes Frost Fever to be applied by Chains of Ice, but instead grants 2/4% strength. The previous functionality of this talent can now be attained via the Glyph of Chains of Ice.
Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged.
Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.
Unbreakable Armor: The amount of strength granted is now 20%, up from 10%.


Frost potential changes
We realize there are still some things that need to be fixed in the tree. The Icy Talons chain of talents feels pretty expensive. Killing Machine can be hard to use. Stuff like that. I can't promise we'll get all of that taken care of quickly, but we'll get it taken care of eventually.

I don't recall us buffing the Gylph of Obliterate from 20% to 25% as has been reported. It's possible I just forgot or there may be something else going on. I will investigate more next week. (Source)

Unholy

Scourge Strike: Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.


So fellow Death Knights... First thoughts about the changes?...
Personally i dislike it on 2 parts...

- Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.

The fact that they choose to do this for tanks on a specific ability which some frost tanks actually still does not use is just a failure to understand at best if you ask me.

Question is what could be done differently, putting the increased threat on the disease it self is a bad option since that would push us up on AoE threat, which i don't really think we lack overall. Not sure Blood Strike would be better either since I'm not sure how the usage is on that for all specs. But might be an Option? Putting it out on our Main attacks (OB, HS or BS?, SS) might buff us up to much, again that is of course relative to how much added threat they made. In a turn-around, putting it on main attacks would actually make more sense for the class in my opinion...

in order to make something real interesting for tanks would be to not just add a static multiplier on a single attack, or several attacks (in the OB, SS, HS or BS? case)... but to make it rely a bit on diseases on the target, but that would properly be scraped at the table because of the implementation difficulties.

Edit: Actually, using main attacks would already add an added threat bonus depending on the diseases up >.<

- Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.

Not sure for this, this must be a buff needed to our DPS counterparts?... because AFAIK DW frost tanks doesn't really need more Threat???... how much this would mean on that part is hard to figure, the fear is ofc. that it will put DW ahead in terms of Threat but to much for 2H frost to remain viable for the skilled... I'm saying skilled because I know that many already think that is the case...

Also, if DW is already capable of the threat needed, then what will it do in comparison to that situation in comparison with other tanks...

And finally, is it even significant, because that would obviously be the hopes.

____________

I have no real comments for the rest, since they seem to impact across the board... in a good way, and for the Unholy/Blood parts, im to disconnected for those since it is far to long since i have tanked as either of those specs.

Acidbaron
02-20-2010, 05:17 AM
It will still make youre initial burst threat higher, i guess they could've added it to frost fever instead of icy touch but then it all depends how long it takes for the first dot tick to land and if it wouldn't be too hard to scale it correctly so doesn't become too good.

and it will have their use seeing if a mob would be further away you actually have a high threat ability that is ranged, so even if you don't use it in your rotation i wouldn't write it off as pointless but then again isn't dw frost higher then blood already regarding tps? Plus you also get another talent boost what you mention you aren't sure you need so :P

dotJEM
02-20-2010, 05:33 AM
It will still make youre initial burst threat higher, i guess they could've added it to frost fever instead of icy touch but then it all depends how long it takes for the first dot tick to land and if it wouldn't be too hard to scale it correctly so doesn't become too good.

and it will have their use seeing if a mob would be further away you actually have a high threat ability that is ranged, so even if you don't use it in your rotation i wouldn't write it off as pointless but then again isn't dw frost higher then blood already regarding tps? Plus you also get another talent boost what you mention you aren't sure you need so :P

I'm guessing your referring to the IT threat buff, and my comment on that.

You disregarded the entire fact that some Frost Death Knights still never uses IT, not even initially on a pull because of the HB glyph that triggers Frost Fever on for HB...

Adding it to Frost Fever as i point out wouldn't only be a Single Target Threat boost, bot an AoE one as well, and that is surely not needed.

Airowird
02-20-2010, 05:36 AM
Every decent DK tank has Imp IT, which is the bigger of the 2 talents buffing IT damage (the other one being 15% crit chance instead of damage).
Also, Frost tanks still use IT, as IT+PS still does equal or more overall damage than HB.
The reason for the second one is that with the DPS gear having enough stats now, the hit of the talent is less useful and the damage gain is too small to make the talent be appealing enough.

Acidbaron
02-20-2010, 06:07 AM
What i ment to say was even not having IT you your rotation as you got other abilities to refresh frost fever, it doesn't render the change completely useless.

if it is a high threat ability and the fact that it is on 20 yd range is great, when picking up mobs or pulling mobs.

Also has more specific uses as for tanking rotface slimes (what makes me wonder if this change was made with that fight in mind)

Satorri
02-20-2010, 06:20 AM
The change with IT will be balanced (I'm quite sure) not to make IT your spammable ability for threat, but to smooth out initial threat. I can guarantee you that if it is not handled well there *will* be a Frost spec to spam IT (off the top of my head, BotN, DRM, Imp IT and relevant damage increasing talents), but there will be plenty of DKs on their helping to see that doesn't happen, myself included.

Frost tanks who do not use IT will not need it to do strong opening threat as they are already using HB. This will revisit the design where some people replace it with glyphed HB, however. The jury is out, these are the initial patch notes, there is a long way before these changes go in.

For Blood and Unholy this just serves to give us a more generous lead-in on our threat compared to Avenger's Shields and Shield Slams.


We'll see how things actually shape up as this gets vetted.

dotJEM
02-20-2010, 06:28 AM
What i ment to say was even not having IT you your rotation as you got other abilities to refresh frost fever, it doesn't render the change completely useless.

if it is a high threat ability and the fact that it is on 20 yd range is great, when picking up mobs or pulling mobs.

Also has more specific uses as for tanking rotface slimes (what makes me wonder if this change was made with that fight in mind)

HB is 20 yards as well... so makes no different to my initial argument, for slimes currently HB > IT for obvious reasons.


Every decent DK tank has Imp IT, which is the bigger of the 2 talents buffing IT damage (the other one being 15% crit chance instead of damage).
Also, Frost tanks still use IT, as IT+PS still does equal or more overall damage than HB.
The reason for the second one is that with the DPS gear having enough stats now, the hit of the talent is less useful and the damage gain is too small to make the talent be appealing enough.

From a small 100 hit sample, and no other than self inflicted buffs, With diseases up in my current gear and spec... this is what I'm at...
Granted that real numbers from raids ect. will look different, those numbers will boost IT+PS as well as HB, and the difference would properly not change greatly...

IT ~1.300 damage
PS ~700 damage
- Combined: 2.000 damage

HB ~2.400 damage

and yes for other reasons than the increased damage any DK tank should have Imp IT...
Rime talks a bit in IT's favor, but it is really far from the reality that IT+PS does more damage in a blanked statement... ill accept the statement that they would do equal damage. but that doesn't put the one in favor of the other, except for the fact that just using HB is convenient.

To factor in for a raid environment.

HB + IT are spell based attacks, so they will be boosted by anything that boosts that. (Spell damage, Spell hit, Won't be subjected to Parry or Dodge, but will be subjected to a higher miss rate depending on your hit)
PS is melee based attack and will factor in anything that boosts that. (Armor reduction, Armor penetration if you have, Will be subjected to Parry, Dodge and Miss depending on your hit and expertise)

And so on.


The change with IT will be balanced (I'm quite sure) not to make IT your spammable ability for threat, but to smooth out initial threat. I can guarantee you that if it is not handled well there *will* be a Frost spec to spam IT (off the top of my head, BotN, DRM, Imp IT and relevant damage increasing talents), but there will be plenty of DKs on their helping to see that doesn't happen, myself included.

Frost tanks who do not use IT will not need it to do strong opening threat as they are already using HB. This will revisit the design where some people replace it with glyphed HB, however. The jury is out, these are the initial patch notes, there is a long way before these changes go in.

For Blood and Unholy this just serves to give us a more generous lead-in on our threat compared to Avenger's Shields and Shield Slams.

We'll see how things actually shape up as this gets vetted.

The B/U part was actually what i was aiming at centralizing the IT part of the discussion about, the fear may be that it will remove the option for using HB as the attack you use to apply your FF because using IT would overall end up being a better solution for overall threat...
If the worst case scenario turns out to be IT spamming that would ofc. be worse, but i never considered that could happen at the beginning because as you put it your self, there will be plenty of data that will prevent that... well hopefully... But it can end up making a single currently by some unused attack more "mandatory"...

And IT just seems as such a pitiful and boring attack to make this buff apply to... My initial thought was something like "Really Blizzard, was that the best you could come up with?"... and then i had the other thoughts.

Feanorr
02-20-2010, 06:59 AM
The change with IT will be balanced (I'm quite sure) not to make IT your spammable ability for threat, but to smooth out initial threat. I can guarantee you that if it is not handled well there *will* be a Frost spec to spam IT (off the top of my head, BotN, DRM, Imp IT and relevant damage increasing talents), but there will be plenty of DKs on their helping to see that doesn't happen, myself included.

Without spamming IT (I am quite sure they wont allow it), it may make short rotation (i.e. without epidemic) more appealing.

Swam
02-20-2010, 08:59 AM
off of the icy touch issue and from a frost perspective I think that this is a very nice patch. I count 3 boosts to dps and moar dps means moar threat. while not much buffed in the way of survivability as I was hoping threat is never a bad thing

Proletaria
02-20-2010, 11:14 AM
Blood = Tank.
Frost = DPS.
Unholy = PvP.

I've got a kidney that says this is their baseline for cataclysm.

Seriously, WOTN without an ICD is going to be rediculously good. I had a hard time justifying a frost spec to myself before. At this point it's just laughable.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 11:49 AM
Blood = Tank.
Frost = DPS.
Unholy = PvP.

I've got a kidney that says this is their baseline for cataclysm.

Seriously, WOTN without an ICD is going to be rediculously good. I had a hard time justifying a frost spec to myself before. At this point it's just laughable.

And thank god for that if they do make the change.
The problem with trying to make 3 trees balanced for 3 things is that you simply can't.
Not possible.

Aaediyen
02-20-2010, 03:37 PM
So fellow Death Knights... First thoughts about the changes?...Personally i dislike it on 2 parts...

- Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.

The fact that they choose to do this for tanks on a specific ability which some frost tanks actually still does not use is just a failure to understand at best if you ask me.

Question is what could be done differently, putting the increased threat on the disease it self is a bad option since that would push us up on AoE threat, which i don't really think we lack overall. Not sure Blood Strike would be better either since I'm not sure how the usage is on that for all specs. But might be an Option? Putting it out on our Main attacks (OB, HS or BS?, SS) might buff us up to much, again that is of course relative to how much added threat they made. In a turn-around, putting it on main attacks would actually make more sense for the class in my opinion...

in order to make something real interesting for tanks would be to not just add a static multiplier on a single attack, or several attacks (in the OB, SS, HS or BS? case)... but to make it rely a bit on diseases on the target, but that would properly be scraped at the table because of the implementation difficulties.

Edit: Actually, using main attacks would already add an added threat bonus depending on the diseases up >.<

- Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.

Not sure for this, this must be a buff needed to our DPS counterparts?... because AFAIK DW frost tanks doesn't really need more Threat???... how much this would mean on that part is hard to figure, the fear is ofc. that it will put DW ahead in terms of Threat but to much for 2H frost to remain viable for the skilled... I'm saying skilled because I know that many already think that is the case...

Also, if DW is already capable of the threat needed, then what will it do in comparison to that situation in comparison with other tanks...

Well, as far as Icy Touch is concerned I agree 100 percent. I tank with one disease and this is a bit of an annoyance. I spose I can use two on single targets to make use of this change, but it really messes with the style of the HB glyphed spec. Dual wielding 2 heavy weapons is already fantastic threat, but doing it with 2 fast tanking weapons is really quite terrible and it will help there. I fear though, that a DK dual wielding 2 heavy weapons will be able to pull down over 10k tps on a single target now. That's probably too much, but I'm not convinced Blizzard cares much about balancing single target agro. So that change isn't bad considering it might put frost DPS up where unholy and blood is at.

But that whole Icy Touch threat thing is really biting at me.

Swam
02-20-2010, 03:58 PM
I highly doubt they are going to nerf dks to force people into roles based on spec. part of the classes flare is its ability to do all that it can and do it well. I think all three classes will still be able to do whatever job they do now.

Swam
02-20-2010, 04:00 PM
And thank god for that if they do make the change.
The problem with trying to make 3 trees balanced for 3 things is that you simply can't.
Not possible.
kind of true, but having each able to do 2-3 things has worked well so far. you might not be able to be the tip top best at all three things, but we are a hybrid class.

Prunetracy
02-20-2010, 04:42 PM
I'm a bit annoyed with the WotN change myself, because I feel required to be a Blood tank now. I just tried it last raid because I tend to enjoy swapping playstyles now and then, but I went back to frost immediately afterwards because I like how it plays better.

Blood was already on par with Frost for survivability, and tended to be the preferred spec for progression raiding due to higher EH and the best tanking cooldown. Now, I just can't see where Frost can compete.

Tomehere321
02-20-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm a bit annoyed with the WotN change myself, because I feel required to be a Blood tank now. I just tried it last raid because I tend to enjoy swapping playstyles now and then, but I went back to frost immediately afterwards because I like how it plays better.

Blood was already on par with Frost for survivability, and tended to be the preferred spec for progression raiding due to higher EH and the best tanking cooldown. Now, I just can't see where Frost can compete.

You shouldnt feel like you need to change your spec, WotN needed a change, and im sure many blood dks that didnt take this talent before will probably think twice about it now before discarding it as a waste of points. But other then that, it wasnt a nerf to frost, that should do just as well as it was with survivabilty, and pull a lil more threat now too (not that frost needed more threat xD)

Tomehere321
02-20-2010, 05:18 PM
Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.[/B]

The fact that they choose to do this for tanks on a specific ability which some frost tanks actually still does not use is just a failure to understand at best if you ask me.

Question is what could be done differently, putting the increased threat on the disease it self is a bad option since that would push us up on AoE threat, which i don't really think we lack overall. Not sure Blood Strike would be better either since I'm not sure how the usage is on that for all specs. But might be an Option? Putting it out on our Main attacks (OB, HS or BS?, SS) might buff us up to much, again that is of course relative to how much added threat they made. In a turn-around, putting it on main attacks would actually make more sense for the class in my opinion...

in order to make something real interesting for tanks would be to not just add a static multiplier on a single attack, or several attacks (in the OB, SS, HS or BS? case)... but to make it rely a bit on diseases on the target, but that would properly be scraped at the table because of the implementation difficulties.

Edit: Actually, using main attacks would already add an added threat bonus depending on the diseases up >.<



When i first saw this buff to icy touch, my first thoughts were that it was mainly for a blood or unholy build, since frost uses howling blast. I'm thinking that most frost dks will still use HB over IT. However im sure its going to take some testing to see which rotation will acually come on top in terms of threat. I personally love the LOVE buffs to dk tanks all in all.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 05:58 PM
kind of true, but having each able to do 2-3 things has worked well so far. you might not be able to be the tip top best at all three things, but we are a hybrid class.

Not being the best at anything hinders / greatly diminishes the class. We aren't a hybrid. We are tank OR dps, period.

Nephelai
02-20-2010, 08:05 PM
When i first saw this buff to icy touch, my first thoughts were that it was mainly for a blood or unholy build, since frost uses howling blast. I'm thinking that most frost dks will still use HB over IT. However im sure its going to take some testing to see which rotation will acually come on top in terms of threat. I personally love the LOVE buffs to dk tanks all in all.

HB is the best "snap aggro" opener, perhaps, but the sustained threat you get from a single target opener that starts with HB is god awful compared to the alternatives. Try opening a boss fight with IT, PS, BS, BT, UA, BS, OB, ERW, OB, OB, OB(or refresh with IT, PS depending on diseases, which depends on how many gcds you filled with FS on KM, or HB on rime plus KM). Let the RS fly out as they proc (via macros of course). by the end of that opening, with MD and Tricks up, you can post 20K to 24K TPS easy. If your dpsers are aggro monkeys in the first three seconds, get them to hold off just once.. take a screen shot, and then show them all what giving you three seconds does to your sustained threat. Nothing you do with an HB opener will come close, and the IT buff is a wonderful thing for the above. With the IT buff giving my opener better snap, combined with all the other improvements to frost threat, my single target boss opener is about to get downright comical.

So yeah.. this frost tank loves the IT buff.

Edit: Just to note that my normal single target prioritization is almost identical to the preferred single target dps prioritization for frost, with the exception that I prioritize burning blood runes with BS to activate damage reduction, over burning FU pairs on OB. This amounts to a little less threat, but better survival, then I would get from a true max dps priority system.

Archa
02-20-2010, 08:10 PM
Satorri[/B]]For Blood and Unholy this just serves to give us a more generous lead-in on our threat compared to Avenger's Shields and Shield Slams.

This


Also, how many people have opened a pull in an heroic with IT and seen the skull run past as your casters have been going full blast on it in the 10 yards before it gets to you. The IT buff should stop this.

Add to that the extra ease of use it gives for picking up adds as an OT and you're laughing :-)

One other thing that pops to mind is when you need to get some aggro on ICC weekly attached to the Deathwhisper encounter.... one IT with increased threat is better than 2 or 3 just adding more damage and giving you less breathing space with trigger happy DPS kicking about.

If my Frosty brothers don't want to use it, that’s fine but I for one am quite excited about this - my priorities/rotations won't change, but it'll be nice to have :-)

Nephelai
02-20-2010, 08:44 PM
One question that popped into my head just now is actually for my off spec. I am currently running frost there also, so that I can provide the melee haste buff when I dps, since it just so happens that my going dps tends to correlate with their not being an enhancement shamman available.... but I am wondering where best to get those two points for endless winter.. which will become a must. I am thinking that pulling them out of blood caked blade will be best, but not really certain yet.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 09:16 PM
What's your offspec?

Nephelai
02-20-2010, 09:20 PM
Seriously, WOTN without an ICD is going to be rediculously good. I had a hard time justifying a frost spec to myself before. At this point it's just laughable.


Meh, I would still rather have improved frost presence. At least I don't have to be close to redline for that damage reduction to be useful.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 09:21 PM
Meh, I would still rather have improved frost presence. At least I don't have to be close to redline for that damage reduction to be useful.

If your tanking harder content you will ALWAYS be close to redline :\

Nephelai
02-20-2010, 09:24 PM
lol.. its all in the odds, there will allways be times you are close to redline, but the frequency of those times will vary, and a blanket 2 percent damage reduction reduces that frequency. I haven't started hardmodes yet, but so far up to LK 10 and Sin 25, if I am below 35 percent something else has already gone wrong.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 09:31 PM
lol.. its all in the odds, there will allways be times you are close to redline, but the frequency of those times will vary, and a blanket 2 percent damage reduction reduces that frequency. I haven't started hardmodes yet, but so far up to LK 10 and Sin 25, if I am below 35 percent something else has already gone wrong.

That's just not accurate. Sindragosa, Fester, LK 25 all hit the tank hard. In heroic mode almost everything will hit you to 35% ranges nonstop.

Nephelai
02-20-2010, 09:39 PM
proper CD chaining in Fester and you should almost never be below 35 percent, Sin, only right after an unmitigated frost breath and only for very short periods unless healers are tied up/out of range for some reason. LK is an admittedly different story, and I already aknowledged I hadn't experienced ICC hard modes yet, so not in a position to judge them.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 11:03 PM
proper CD chaining in Fester and you should almost never be below 35 percent, Sin, only right after an unmitigated frost breath and only for very short periods unless healers are tied up/out of range for some reason. LK is an admittedly different story, and I already aknowledged I hadn't experienced ICC hard modes yet, so not in a position to judge them.

Are you really going to try to argue this?

dotJEM
02-21-2010, 03:21 AM
HB is the best "snap aggro" opener, perhaps, but the sustained threat you get from a single target opener that starts with HB is god awful compared to the alternatives. Try opening a boss fight with IT, PS, BS, BT, UA, BS, OB, ERW, OB, OB, OB(or refresh with IT, PS depending on diseases, which depends on how many gcds you filled with FS on KM, or HB on rime plus KM). Let the RS fly out as they proc (via macros of course). by the end of that opening, with MD and Tricks up, you can post 20K to 24K TPS easy. If your dpsers are aggro monkeys in the first three seconds, get them to hold off just once.. take a screen shot, and then show them all what giving you three seconds does to your sustained threat. Nothing you do with an HB opener will come close, and the IT buff is a wonderful thing for the above. With the IT buff giving my opener better snap, combined with all the other improvements to frost threat, my single target boss opener is about to get downright comical.

So yeah.. this frost tank loves the IT buff.

Edit: Just to note that my normal single target prioritization is almost identical to the preferred single target dps prioritization for frost, with the exception that I prioritize burning blood runes with BS to activate damage reduction, over burning FU pairs on OB. This amounts to a little less threat, but better survival, then I would get from a true max dps priority system.

20-24k tps... that made me think that your exadurating... highest TPS Ive ever seen on a tank for a short period lies around 16k. regardless of class and situation...
So unless you have a stupid high amount of rouges and hunters in the raid i find those numbers hard to belive... we normally run wit 2 of each in 25 man max.

My opener is DnD, HB, (BT), PS -> OB, BS, OB, OB... and that is a more than sufficient opener for our 10k DPS'ers to go Wacky at the time I'm at the boss, and at the time I reach the boss if done right, my first 3 used runes from DnD are of CD (or very close to depending on boss movement) again so it does not break my rotation, and it is not a waste to DnD.
I see UA as a bad way of spending a rune on an initial pull with it's limited 10% STR...

After the initial pull i use BS whenever a Blood Rune is off CD (to convert it), PS whenever needed, HB on all rimes, OB for the rest, and any periods where Runes are on CD's i fill with FS.
RS is bundled with HB and OB.

And I'm not even close to threat issues after i have gotten my Hit and Exp in check...


Well, as far as Icy Touch is concerned I agree 100 percent. I tank with one disease and this is a bit of an annoyance. I spose I can use two on single targets to make use of this change, but it really messes with the style of the HB glyphed spec. Dual wielding 2 heavy weapons is already fantastic threat, but doing it with 2 fast tanking weapons is really quite terrible and it will help there. I fear though, that a DK dual wielding 2 heavy weapons will be able to pull down over 10k tps on a single target now. That's probably too much, but I'm not convinced Blizzard cares much about balancing single target agro. So that change isn't bad considering it might put frost DPS up where unholy and blood is at.

But that whole Icy Touch threat thing is really biting at me.

Well as for the DW part, what you outline is close to what I said or meant.

I Have no clue to DK DPS, but as far as i knew DW tanks had no thread issues (you confirm that very well)... And my thinking is exactly what you outline, that this was a needed buff for our DPS counterparts so they can compete, while it sadly ends up maybe making DW Frost a bit to good on the TPS, and god knows other tanks will wine about that if it ends up being to significant.

Im not sure I like your comment on 2 fast tanking weapons... I kinda like the fact that we are meant to use Slow Wielding weapons for that, and letting the Paladins and Warriors having there Tanking weapons to them self...
Or maybe i just like to roll my eyes every time i see a DW DK with 2 tanking weapons, and then even more when he fails to produce threat what so ever >.<


Edit: I have added some additional info from MMO to the main post. Apparently they seem to wan't IT to be our Shield Slam o.O... and making it so significant is exactly what i feared :(... But that gotta fail because Shield Slam has a CD for a reason. That also got me to think...

Great, if the above becomes what it is, so much for being skilled to juggle your disease uptime as a tank, ultimately you would wan't to use IT way more than needed to manage that... Removing any required thought about FF uptime what so ever... HB Glyph can be argued to do kind of the same thing, but at least that is not a 100% deal.

KnThrak
02-21-2010, 05:18 AM
And thank god for that if they do make the change.
The problem with trying to make 3 trees balanced for 3 things is that you simply can't.
Not possible.

Uuuuh.
Last I checked, we have all 3 trees viable for DPS (the decision maker is which utility your raid needs), and 2,5 trees viable for Tanking (Unholy can be if you lack access to CoE).
So where exactly is it "not possible"?

dotJEM
02-21-2010, 05:34 AM
Uuuuh.
Last I checked, we have all 3 trees viable for DPS (the decision maker is which utility your raid needs), and 2,5 trees viable for Tanking (Unholy can be if you lack access to CoE).
So where exactly is it "not possible"?

They are not "balanced" however.

So he is correct, but the only thing they can balance if they completely remove everything that is called Classes, Talent Trees, Gear and leave us with The same tools, the same stats, the same everything...
Then we are balanced... and only then... Perfect balance is by it self impossible as soon as you add choice to a game... But what is wrong with Paper beats Rock beats Scissor beats Paper?...

But eagerness to find perfect balance keeps leaving Underdogs...

KnThrak
02-21-2010, 06:47 AM
Well ofc the specs aren't balanced, much like the other three "tankspecs" (Prot Warrior, Prot Paladin, Feral Druid) are not balanced to any smallscale enough degree.

But is it necessary? From personal experience, no. From reading blue comments, neither is it wanted.
From watching cutting-edge guilds, no.

From a math POV? Maybe.

Though I feel like math shows a difference which is not perceivable ingame. Math makes the perception, if someone were to hide all the numbers no one could ever tell which tank was more squishy or not. Threat differences are easier to see ofc but 3.3.3 may fix quite a bit there.

Ultimately the DK's tree-utility is strong enough that if they make it easier for tanks to buy IIT, the utility will trump the tree-differences even if you're going for minmaxing instead of the playstyle you like most.


As such, what does "balanced" mean?
I challenge whether it should mean "mathmatically balanced"; such balance is not perceivable ingame and hence is of superficial importance only.
It should mean "realistically viable". Given enough datasets, it is viable in a non-trivial amount of them. This is what players see and experience ingame. Ofc it's more complicated than that because of the doomsingers harping "EJ said it sucks!" off top of every house and the FOTM-rerollish nature of MMO playerbases.

Vah
02-21-2010, 08:53 AM
Please don't complain about buffs to our class. The idea behind the IT buff was stated already, it's for snap threat (Ie shield slam). Howling blast is sufficient for snap aggro.

Lets be honest here, frost is a decent tanking build. It has some advantages, but in end-game tanking you will be blood. UA, the only other major CD is useless as armor caps are just about being reached. The developers know this, and i challenge anyone to find a frost DK Main Tank in a top progression guild. Buffs/nerfs aren't always about casuals.

dotJEM
02-21-2010, 10:34 AM
Please don't complain about buffs to our class. The idea behind the IT buff was stated already, it's for snap threat (Ie shield slam). Howling blast is sufficient for snap aggro.

Lets be honest here, frost is a decent tanking build. It has some advantages, but in end-game tanking you will be blood. UA, the only other major CD is useless as armor caps are just about being reached. The developers know this, and i challenge anyone to find a frost DK Main Tank in a top progression guild. Buffs/nerfs aren't always about casuals.


Could People in General just keep to The original Intention of the Topic...
If you LIKE the IT change... then state WHY you like it... don't stay why you think others should not dislike it with "I think your playing wrong"... "You won't ever be frost anyways"... and so on...

I Dislike if for the reasons I've already put up...
If you like it put your reasons up for that... this discussion has now escalated into how people should tank, and what spec they should tank like... THAT WAS NEVER the intention...
Ive been Dumb enough my self to comment on people who went in that direction... but i think we should get back to the actual topic now...

WHAT DO you like about the changes...
WHAT DON'T you like about the changes...
(Tank perspectives, REGARDLESS of spec).

Nephelai
02-21-2010, 10:59 AM
20-24k tps... that made me think that your exadurating... highest TPS Ive ever seen on a tank for a short period lies around 16k. regardless of class and situation...
So unless you have a stupid high amount of rouges and hunters in the raid i find those numbers hard to belive... we normally run wit 2 of each in 25 man max.

Not exaggerating at all, this ss is with three tricks and one m/d, but the numbers I get from two tricks and two m'd's are similar, and easily over 16k. Also.. a UBA's 10 percent strength buff, plus attack power buff from armor = a massive short term threat buff. Just pop it with your paper doll and look at your attack power increase... and in the SS below the big opener isn't over... KM proced right when I hit print screen with Rime up.. joy, more threat.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac107/NephelaiWoW/UberThreat.jpg

Edit: No, I just looked closer, strangely we had four rogues in that run, but that guild usually ran with three, but my point still stands... here is 18K TPS in a ten man with one rogue and one hunter. Edit again: grrrr Im being careless today, two hunters, but apparently only one md.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac107/NephelaiWoW/Marrowgar.jpg

Nephelai
02-21-2010, 11:15 AM
What's your offspec?

It's the popular 0/54/17, I have actually taken a closer look at this, and I am thinking black ice will be a better place to steal the points from, in order to pick up the strength buff, assuming the tree's look otherwise like they do now.

swelt
02-21-2010, 11:16 AM
All the screenshots serve to illustrate is how poor in game TPS meters are, and little else. Realtime calculations of TPS/DPS/HPS are pretty meaningless, as they are just a point in time measurement (average over last X seconds normally) and should be treated as such.

Nephelai
02-21-2010, 11:20 AM
All the screenshots serve to illustrate is how poor in game TPS meters are, and little else. Realtime calculations of TPS/DPS/HPS are pretty meaningless, as they are just a point in time measurement (average over last X seconds normally) and should be treated as such.

The discussion was only about the threat produced by the different openers, you can see my total threat generated as well as judge how far into the fight we are, in both screen shots.

Jedd
02-21-2010, 12:29 PM
Are you really going to try to argue this?

GC on the forums:

"In the theoretical case where the DK is ping-ponging between 40% and 20% health, it's crazy good (as is Ardent Defender), but those situations don't happen often. (They might happen more in Cataclysm, where it would be nice to see tanks at 50% health for more than a fraction of a second.) Most of the time, Will of the Necropolis is just extra health, which was the case before we removed the cooldown. "

And then again in the same thread

"We changed Will of the Necropolis for the simple reason that one of the designers took a look at how often the cooldown made the difference between the DK living and dying. The answer was very rarely."

Also in the same thread
"Tanks typically are at full health, avoid every other attack, get hit, and then get topped off."

So yes. It is worth the argument. On one hand we have GC saying the Devs have analyzed the numbers that they have available internally to them and found that tanks do not spend a significant portion in the redline and that WoTN would rarely ever keeping proccing consecutively. On the other hand we have you saying that on hard modes tanks are constantly on the redline without any proof to support your opinion and certainly without the data the developors have available to them.

So actually it's not worth arguing. Unless you're calling GC a liar, he already outright told us based on actual data analysis tanks are not spending time on the redline

Nephelai
02-21-2010, 01:03 PM
GC on the forums:
So actually it's not worth arguing. Unless you're calling GC a liar, he already outright told us based on actual data analysis tanks are not spending time on the redline

Thanks, I think that summed up what I was trying to say there better then anything else I could have posted.

Edgewalker
02-21-2010, 05:30 PM
BQL Hard - Melee Average 20,019 Max 29,987
Festergut Normal - Average Melee - 17,509, Max 28,078
Festergut Hard - Average Melee - 22,530 Max 44,089
LK - Soul Reaper Max Taken 38,098 (Avg 30,109) Melee Max 44,000 (Avg 17,411)
DBS Hard - Melee Average - 20,109 Max 34,109
ROTFACE (Not a hard hitting tank fight) Average 14,058 Max 27,098

I don't have LK Hard mode or Sindragosa Hard mode parses, but they are the HARDEST hitting bosses currently in the game, so the numbers will be higher. Most of those bosses have supplemental damage effects, instant attacks, raid damage, or attack extremely fast (Saurfang HM for instance, especially below 30%, is an extremely hard hitting tank killer boss).

I honestly don't care what you go. Frost is playable. Unholy is still playable. Frost does have some nice passive mitigation talents. But to argue, or even attempt to argue, that WoTN doesn't take an already slightly more powerful tree and leapfrog it FAR above the other two is laughable. Arguing 2% passive mitigation over 15% on any fight where you have a chance of dying is even more ludicrous.
You are basically saying "That talent is only good if it's on a boss where I am getting hit hard".... duh?

Edgewalker
02-21-2010, 05:32 PM
Short term TPS screenshots off the opener are ridiculous also. You would be listed as doing 20K+ TPS even if you were in Blood Presence with your back turned to the boss, AFK eating cereal. It has nothing to do with spec or class or playstyle and everything to do with Blizzard's current design philosophies.

Edgewalker
02-21-2010, 05:34 PM
Ignorance and Arrogance....

You went on a totally unneeded rant and then bashed his progression as not having a life?
Keep yourself in check.
Frost HAS snap threat. Frost will have even more snap threat in EVERY situation where you would need the buffed IT. People that don't like this change because they play frost either don't understand its intentions, don't understand the mechanics or reasoning behind the change, or are just looking for something to complain about.

Nephelai
02-21-2010, 10:54 PM
I honestly don't care what you go. Frost is playable. Unholy is still playable. Frost does have some nice passive mitigation talents. But to argue, or even attempt to argue, that WoTN doesn't take an already slightly more powerful tree and leapfrog it FAR above the other two is laughable. Arguing 2% passive mitigation over 15% on any fight where you have a chance of dying is even more ludicrous.
You are basically saying "That talent is only good if it's on a boss where I am getting hit hard".... duh?

First of all, my arguments in favor of frost tanking are not made because blood tanking is "bad." It's because frost tanks constantly have to defend themselves against random heroic pugs and others who have succumbed to the illusion of more health in the blood tank spec, without really looking at the mechanics behind the two trees. The number of issues that need to be covered in those arguments, and even in the damage numbers you posted, are sundry. For example, when Festergut is hitting his hardest, IBF and UB give me 38 seconds of strait damage reduction without the need to call for pain suppression. And yes, even UB is very solid damage reduction against Festerguts physical melee attacks, which happen to be worse when there is no shadow raid damage to go with them.

But what I am arguing, isn't that blood tanking is bad, that would be silly. It's not bad, it just has a boring rotation. My argument is exactly that a) it is not slightly superior and b) the fix on one of its worse talents is going to help it, but not propel it way above anything.

lol.. an oh yeah.. as to the SS, keep in mind I only posted them in reply to someone saying they had never seen short term tps numbers over 16K. Stop trying to evaluate them in a vacume that dosen't include that statement.

Edit: I could have been a real ass and posted SS of me chain taunting off three army of the dead casts in a heroic.. those TPS numbers are extremely funny.

Edit Edit: Oh, heh.. and unless Saurfang has eaten some serious wheaties in hard mode, tank killing is the least of a raids concerns with him, even after frenzy. After all, on normal, getting a random mark on the tank is not only healable, its advantageous.

Vlad
02-22-2010, 12:48 AM
Well I know why I tank in blood spec, and it's got nothing to do with the "boring" 14 shot starting rotation.. which I actually find mildly annoying because it can be tight.
Here's my reasons and theyre all to do with survivabilty.. since thats the main job of a tank.

UH Tank
IBF - check
Bone Shield - check

Frost Tank
IBF - check
Frigid Dreadplate - err.. ok >.>
Unbreakable Armor - Check

Blood Tank
IBF - check
Spell Deflection - check (laugh all you want until you check your logs after princes)
VB - check
WoTN - check
More health - check

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 02:30 AM
Well I know why I tank in blood spec, and it's got nothing to do with the "boring" 14 shot starting rotation.. which I actually find mildly annoying because it can be tight.
Here's my reasons and theyre all to do with survivabilty.. since thats the main job of a tank.

UH Tank
IBF - check
Bone Shield - check

Frost Tank
IBF - check
Frigid Dreadplate - err.. ok >.>
Unbreakable Armor - Check

Blood Tank
IBF - check
Spell Deflection - check (laugh all you want until you check your logs after princes)
VB - check
WoTN - check
More health - check

Come on now, I was having a fun little back and forth with Edgewalker, but his posts are at least not so narrowly biased as to completely ignore things.

You laughed off Frigid Deadplate.. but most of us realize that 3percent avoidance, is 3 percent avoidance, and certainly not to be scoffed.

You completely ignore Improved Frost presence even though, assuming a 50K hit, it would be 1000 mitigation, while listing "more health" under blood... er uh... 1 percent more stam per point, right?

You mention spell deflection while ignoring acclimation. Really now, the 30 percent chance of having an extra 50 resistance to one hit is higher odds then your parry chance... and it just might even stack.

You made no mention of the fact that frosts IBF lasts quite a bit longer then bloods (6 more seconds is an eternity in the world of cd's)

And heres a little frost tank secret.. since after the start of a fight we are usually boasting a nice fat threat lead, we can allways break our prioritization to do atypical sub optimal threat stuff, when needed... like when our healer is cc'd, or out of los behind an iceblock, or otherwise not able to get that next couple heals off... we do have DS on our toolbar, and some of us actually do know how to use it. Granted, we get a 10percent heal instead of a 15percent heal.. but then we specialize in creating FU pairs.. so...

You kinda left a few things out of unholy too, like better magic damage survival tools then either of us have, but even people who like to use UH know that it is lagging behind the other two trees in a number of respects.

Satorri
02-22-2010, 06:28 AM
20-24k tps... that made me think that your exadurating... highest TPS Ive ever seen on a tank for a short period lies around 16k. regardless of class and situation...
So unless you have a stupid high amount of rouges and hunters in the raid i find those numbers hard to belive... we normally run wit 2 of each in 25 man max.

Not going for epeen here, as it was pointed out below, burst threat can go quite high. I have my meter set to a 10 sec sliding window (i.e. at any give time the TPS shown is averaged over the last 10 sec it has recorded) and I've managed to sustain 38k tps for 8-10 sec on DBS (i.e. no special threat buffs other than fast swings). That of course caused a fit of rampant giggling as I happened to be watching the meter out of curiosity at the time.

All it takes to get a spree like that is a lucky set of RS procs, and some HS crits. I had no rogues or hunters (/lament awkward comp sometimes).


Anyway, back to the issue at hand. We've had a lot of hand-waving "it is going to be RIDICULOUS!!" "It's no biggeee"

Let's look at the range of potential value for the ability.

With no ICD and no minimum size requirement it can proc on every hit, right? So, *if* every hit you take takes you from >35% to <35% (which logistically is unlikely as it will require you to be low enough for the smaller hits to do that, and/or to be hanging out at lower health, *or* be getting hit for 50-70+% of your health on every hit) then it will be a 15% mitigation effect. But let's look closer:

I expect I skew a bit on the light side for health as a Blood tank as only half of my gems are actually pure stamina (WTB more blue sockets). Raid buffed I am sitting at about 55k health. So, the proc threshold for WotN for me is 19.25k. Pretty decently high point to cross yes? If I have full health that means I need to take a 36k+ hit to drop me below that point from full (and if I am getting hit that hard my healers are hammering heals to keep me pressed towards the ceiling, Festergut on inhale 3 with no CDs popped hits me for about 30k). Generally speaking though, I have a low health warning set at 40% (makes a nice hard-to-miss sound when I cross that value) and I rarely cross it when things are going right *except* for the tank hammering fights like Fester, Sindragosa, and painful LK moments.

So, *if* we meet the criteria for tank hammering with the perfect (and terrifying) possibility of every hit taking you from above 35% to below, *then* it is a full 15% added mitigation, mitigation which Blood is otherwise lacking from talents, but your healers are going to be working their butts off to keep you alive, and you will likely be popping CDs to keep from getting hit *that* hard.

Realistically? What can we expect. If you have a fight where you are expected to get busted on (particularly the ones above), you can reasonably probably expect to dip that low from one hit every 3-5 sec. Let's say 4 just to have a number. And we'll say the hit that dropped you that low was a WHOPPING 30k slam. 15% off that slam is 4500 dmg reduced. If we are taking uniform hits every 1.3 sec (fast swing) so every 3rd is dipping us, that is 15% on 1/3rd of the hits, or a 5% mitigation bump for a 3 pt talent. Slightly over the standard budget, but generally appropriate for the very conditional nature.

If we swung that up to the biggest hit you would likely see around 45k that would be 6.75k reduced, but those would not be so frequent so that raw damage removed would be less, though maybe it would increase the overall % mitigation. Keep in mind you can *never* get above 15% damage reduction from the talent.


I maintain that this makes the talent *very* desirable, but not at all game breaking. Generally speaking this just cements the talents nature as a "you don't want to see it proc, but when it does you will be thrilled it did as it *could* save your life."



Personally, if these changes go through they will change my considerations a bit of two key items:
1.) Glyph of Disease. If IT is doing significantly more threat, I may want to be using it more than once per fight. GoDisease has many perks that have little to do with raw threat though, so it is not a cut and dry change.

2.) WotN. I never really took it before because I didn't particularly care for the overall effect, my health rarely dips that low repeatedly unless I'm about to die for lack of healers (usually poor things are dead), and because I have my own response to health dips involving sharp DS/Rune Tap heals to bounce back up which tends to limit the procs even more. That said, with the righteous beating I sometimes take in ICC, it may be well worth a trade from some of my threat focus to grab, just to make it a little easier on my healers when it really matters.

Vah
02-22-2010, 08:01 AM
First of all, my arguments in favor of frost tanking are not made because blood tanking is "bad." It's because frost tanks constantly have to defend themselves against random heroic pugs and others who have succumbed to the illusion of more health in the blood tank spec, without really looking at the mechanics behind the two trees. The number of issues that need to be covered in those arguments, and even in the damage numbers you posted, are sundry. For example, when Festergut is hitting his hardest, IBF and UB give me 38 seconds of strait damage reduction without the need to call for pain suppression. And yes, even UB is very solid damage reduction against Festerguts physical melee attacks, which happen to be worse when there is no shadow raid damage to go with them.

But what I am arguing, isn't that blood tanking is bad, that would be silly. It's not bad, it just has a boring rotation. My argument is exactly that a) it is not slightly superior and b) the fix on one of its worse talents is going to help it, but not propel it way above anything.



Are you aware that DK tanks are 1-2% damage reduction under the armor cap in correctly itemized gear when using Indestructible pots? This would make UA practically useless. If you expect to survive hard mode festergut with just UA, you won't be killing him for awhile. I agree the 6 extra seconds on IBF is very nice for situations such as this though.

Then again, you can go blood, use IBF for 12, VB/trinkets for 15 to put you at 70-75k health + 35% increased healing followed up with a GS/Painsup/Hand of Sac just to be safe, meanwhile spamming death strike to heal yourself for 10-15k during this duration.

Like i said previously in my 'arrogant' post, please find a Frost Dk Main tank in a top 200 world guild as maybe they can teach the rest of us something we don't know? (This post is specifically referring to end-game raiding, please do not refer to tanking heroics)

swelt
02-22-2010, 08:39 AM
I'm not in the habit of agreeing with Edgewalker, but I think he's looking at this the right way here.

This isn't about how much damage this talent reduces on average over the course of a raid instance. This is all about what raid encounter mechanics you can make significantly easier to handle by having or not having WotN (or AD). If your raid strat for handling soul reaper reads "have a blood DK or paladin", then you know something isn't quite right. If every hard mode strat reads "this fight is easier with a Blood DK or Paladin tank", it's certainly gone wrong. If this is all blown out of proportion and it just makes the tank classes a little bit different to play, then it's all fine.

Theotherone
02-22-2010, 08:49 AM
Like i said previously in my 'arrogant' post, please find a Frost Dk Main tank in a top 200 world guild as maybe they can teach the rest of us something we don't know? (This post is specifically referring to end-game raiding, please do not refer to tanking heroics)

Unfortunately, you probably won't find one. I love Frost Spec, it's what I started tanking in when trade chat "wisdom" was that "Frost was the tanking spec;" however, as content hit harder I respec'd to Blood for boss fights, but kept Frost for adds, heroics and trash - also, melee dps just doesn't get me going. It seems the changes to WoTN, will just extend Blood's lead as the tanking spec for end-game boss fights.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 10:53 AM
First of all, my arguments in favor of frost tanking are not made because blood tanking is "bad." It's because frost tanks constantly have to defend themselves against random heroic pugs and others who have succumbed to the illusion of more health in the blood tank spec, without really looking at the mechanics behind the two trees. The number of issues that need to be covered in those arguments, and even in the damage numbers you posted, are sundry. For example, when Festergut is hitting his hardest, IBF and UB give me 38 seconds of strait damage reduction without the need to call for pain suppression. And yes, even UB is very solid damage reduction against Festerguts physical melee attacks, which happen to be worse when there is no shadow raid damage to go with them.

Edit Edit: Oh, heh.. and unless Saurfang has eaten some serious wheaties in hard mode, tank killing is the least of a raids concerns with him, even after frenzy. After all, on normal, getting a random mark on the tank is not only healable, its advantageous.

Well random heroics and pugs are made up of idiots and fools, everyone should know that by now :)

UA has a LOT of issues as your gear improves. Even if you aren't stacking armor, you will still be using Indestructible on pulls, and when bosses hit hard. You will still likely be wearing Devium's Ring when you get it, Bile-Encrusted Medallion, the tier chest and gloves. Even a DK NOT gearing for armor will be getting very, very close to the armor cap. The harder the content and the better your gear get, the worse UA gets as a mitigation talent. On heroic 25 man Festergut, even heroic 10 man Festergut, it becomes a simply worse overall talent than WoTN when compared side to side, and definitely worse than VB which flat scales (and also scales the effectiveness of WoTN on use).

Acclimation has a lot of issues when compared to Spell Deflection. The larger spell damage bosses in the game don't have AoE abilities or constant magical damage that stack Acclimation. I've specced it and frost for Sindragosa and gone the entire fight without seeing a stack above 1.

Saurfang hits for about 30-32K damage every .8 seconds on heroic 25 man, with a slight discrepancy on swing time based on his casting of abilities and damage based on his current rune power.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 10:59 AM
Realistically? What can we expect. If you have a fight where you are expected to get busted on (particularly the ones above), you can reasonably probably expect to dip that low from one hit every 3-5 sec. Let's say 4 just to have a number. And we'll say the hit that dropped you that low was a WHOPPING 30k slam. 15% off that slam is 4500 dmg reduced. If we are taking uniform hits every 1.3 sec (fast swing) so every 3rd is dipping us, that is 15% on 1/3rd of the hits, or a 5% mitigation bump for a 3 pt talent. Slightly over the standard budget, but generally appropriate for the very conditional nature.
.

You really need to stop looking at survival talents on the basis of how much damage they reduce over a period of time :( It really misses the point entirely.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 11:01 AM
Like i said previously in my 'arrogant' post, please find a Frost Dk Main tank in a top 200 world guild as maybe they can teach the rest of us something we don't know? (This post is specifically referring to end-game raiding, please do not refer to tanking heroics)

Devium used to be, but he also generally specced and geared like a fresh 80 with no regard to how the game works, so I suspect that isn't a valid point :p

Proletaria
02-22-2010, 11:33 AM
Devium used to be, but he also generally specced and geared like a fresh 80 with no regard to how the game works, so I suspect that isn't a valid point :p

His point is/was pretty valid. I haven't seen a non-blood dk tanking in -any- guild that was within in the top 1000, much less top 200. My guild is on a server rife with progression raiders, the largest population of raiders in the US. I am quite literally THE ONLY dk tank who has killed the lich king on 10 or 25. The only dk tank who has tanked BQL 25. The only dk tank who has tanked Sindragosa 25. I'm very familiar with the other tank deathknights on my battlegroup because there aren't many of us. We are all blood simply because it is better, in almost every way, in almost every situation, than frost. Devium also hasn't tanked anything in a long time, and indeed spec's like he just mashed the keyboard at random.

Back to the topic of WOTN. Satorri has it right. The OMG OVERPOWERED wotn only becomes so when bosses are hitting VERY hard (and since they hit that hard, they're either hitting slow, or they're hard-enraged and the raid is wiping). Most of the hardmodes don't even cross into the 40k "wow look at that talent go" threshold, and, unless your healers are comfortable letting you ride at 45% hp then you won't be taking advantage of wotn on bosses who hit faster for much less damage (ie. every non-festergut, non-lichking encounter in icc). Describing it as a "free 15% mitigation" or "free 15% EH" is just completely ignorant. We'll see just how broken it is when the patch is live, but I suspect the "zomg 15% eh" posts are going to have this nerfed before it sees the light of day.

Satorri
02-22-2010, 12:14 PM
You really need to stop looking at survival talents on the basis of how much damage they reduce over a period of time :( It really misses the point entirely.

Don't get me wrong, my point is not to illustrate what to expect, but to illustrate what is possible, and what is likely.

The idea that this will somehow become a big deal is (I think) a faulty perception of how it works. The idea is bigger than the talent. Blizzard apparently sees it the same way, but we may both be wrong. That's why this is being implemented on the PTR for testing.


(as a side note, you've had a funny habit lately of posting on theory posts suggesting that these things don't matter or math doesn't apply, the irony of posting to a theorycrafting forum that what we're doing has no relevance is a bit much as an active participant.)

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 01:30 PM
UA has a LOT of issues as your gear improves. Even if you aren't stacking armor, you will still be using Indestructible on pulls, and when bosses hit hard. You will still likely be wearing Devium's Ring when you get it, Bile-Encrusted Medallion, the tier chest and gloves. Even a DK NOT gearing for armor will be getting very, very close to the armor cap. The harder the content and the better your gear get, the worse UA gets as a mitigation talent. On heroic 25 man Festergut, even heroic 10 man Festergut, it becomes a simply worse overall talent than WoTN when compared side to side, and definitely worse than VB which flat scales (and also scales the effectiveness of WoTN on use).



You have to be at 40K armor, buffed, before you start loosing any benefit from unglyphed UA. At that point you are aprox 10K away from the armor cap, and at aprox 72.5 percent physical mitigation from armor. Popping UA at that point will bring you up to 50K which is very slightly over the 75 percent mitigation point, giving you 2.5 more percent mitigation. That is 2.5/27.5 or about 9 percent additional mitigation from armor (meaning of course that a hit that would have gotten in for 30K is now getting in for about 27.3K). It is only when you start exceeding 40K armor that UA beginst to really start loosing value as a cool down.

Oh and I actually did a quick skim of some logs last night, frost DK tanks have been invloved in 25m LK Kills in at least all of the following guilds: Gong Show, Juggernaut, Exodus, Insomniax, A-Team. A brief inspection of all of the above tanks reveals they are switch hitters using both frost and blood, but they are def. in frost in the LK logs.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 02:13 PM
His point is/was pretty valid. .

I meant my own personal point bringing up Devium, since Devium is bad. Vah's point is very, very valid.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 02:19 PM
(as a side note, you've had a funny habit lately of posting on theory posts suggesting that these things don't matter or math doesn't apply, the irony of posting to a theorycrafting forum that what we're doing has no relevance is a bit much as an active participant.)

A lot of the math done on these forums doesn't have any relevance to actually playing the game or how it actually performs in the game. It's always been that way. I'm sorry if that's offensive, but the way you used it above in regards to WoTN proves my point to a T. The way you used to use it defending old UA, the way people used to try to use it in regards to the first iterations of warrior protection talents, or mathematical simulations on Hydross, or average damage over time with avoidance V stamina on fights like Steelbreaker... sometimes theorycrafters just need to stop it and work on something I like to call Realitycraft.


@ Nephelai - Almost every tank will start eclipsing 40K before they finish ICC. EVERY tank should be far beyond 40K in heroic ICC. I suspect the frost tanks on LK might be frost for reasons that aren't tanking... anyone that will be tanking LK himself will be blood post patch unless they aren't totally familiar with fight mechanics.

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 03:52 PM
@ Nephelai - Almost every tank will start eclipsing 40K before they finish ICC. EVERY tank should be far beyond 40K in heroic ICC. I suspect the frost tanks on LK might be frost for reasons that aren't tanking... anyone that will be tanking LK himself will be blood post patch unless they aren't totally familiar with fight mechanics.

DK tanks are so good at the off tanking duties on LK comparitively, that I am not sure why you would put one on LK regardless of how well they can handle him (unless of course you have more then one DK tank, but I would prefer a general raid comp that can bring three of the four tanking classes). Arguably frost is the better spec for the various offtanking duties (due to aoe snap), and I have no doubt thats why those tanks were using frost in that encounter. DG on shamblings is just too clean not to use if you have the option.

While we don't have a geared druid tank in my current guild, I really think in ICC one Pally that can go heals, one Druid that can go heals, and one DK that can go dps, is optimal. I wouldn't call any of them the "main" tank because the role they fit best changes from fight to fight.

Edit: the only reason I specified a druid over a warrior in that comp is because that comp allows you to increase dps/single target heals/raid heals, on any fight you two tank.

Proletaria
02-22-2010, 03:59 PM
You have to be at 40K armor, buffed, before you start loosing any benefit from unglyphed UA.


Well aside from the obvious fact you get zero benefit on non-pysical damage from UBA, I can easily get to 40k buffed (and far beyond that with a armor trinkets) without going for lack of threat/stam. One armor trinket (which is the norm for me in most cases) will push me to this point. With absolutely no armor bonuses aside from what is on my t10/badge gear (ie. no armor rings, amulet, trinkets) i'm sitting at 36k armor raid buffed, and more importantly i pre-pot with an indestructible potion for any encounter where physical damage is a concern, that's a 3k armor boost in and of itself for most of the short encounters, and that alone puts me very near 40k.

What is the point? Well, you said it yourself, UBA looses a lot of it's thunder when you have that level of gear. Even in the situations where the physical damage is all that you care about, there is generally more survivability to be gained from Vampiric blood. Frost DK tanks have been "involved" in those LK kills for one reason: chillblains on valkyrs and until recently the plague buff allowing the dk to spread the Lich King's own disease for massive damage to adds in p1. I can assure you, without any doubt, that if this bug had not existed, and chillblains were inferior to other slowing effects, there would have been no dk tanks in these kills. Juggernaut does not have a dk "tank," on their roster but rather a dps dk (an alt if I am not mistake, one who participates in their main-raids for these situations only) who is well geared from secondary raids, and ready to fill in for gimmicks such as these.

At the moment, there is no better combo on the lich king than Bear/Warrior, with Bear/Paladin as a very close runner-up.

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 04:13 PM
@Proletaria You drop enough stam taking an armor trinket to cancel out the health benefit blood has relative to a frost dk using two stam trinkets. I am well aware of which slots can get bonus armor and how they stack, and a tank who uses the trinket slots for stam and who otherwise goes for an optimal stat balance (which is how I would advise a frost dk to gear in most situations) should be right in the neigbhorhood of 40K fully buffed in the best gear available... letting UBA push them to the cap when popped.

As to the magic damage thing, yeah.. when UBA is at its worst.. acclimation is at its best. Go figure.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 04:25 PM
DK tanks are so good at the off tanking duties on LK comparitively,

DK's are actually probably the worst LK OT's. Warriors are without a doubt the best (by a large, large, large factor). Not really sure where your statement would be coming from :\

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 04:31 PM
Its coming from the fact that a DK can easily pick up shamblers with a death grip creating zero chance of the raid ever being in the frontal cone, they can produce better aoe threat and get better aoe snap aggro then a warrior, they can slow valks before they are in melee range, which a warrior can not do, they can generally handle the spirits as well as anyone else can.

Only thing they can't do is stun during add enrage, so they do need a tranq shot for that, but I would rather need a tranq shot on enrage then need an md on spawn.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 05:27 PM
Its coming from the fact that a DK can easily pick up shamblers with a death grip creating zero chance of the raid ever being in the frontal cone, they can produce better aoe threat and get better aoe snap aggro then a warrior, they can slow valks before they are in melee range, which a warrior can not do, they can generally handle the spirits as well as anyone else can.

Only thing they can't do is stun during add enrage, so they do need a tranq shot for that, but I would rather need a tranq shot on enrage then need an md on spawn.

If you figure out how shamblers spawn there is never a chance of frontal cone regardless. You don't need AOE threat on LK at all? You definitely don't need AOE snap agro. You DO need single target snap agro, which warriors provide more readily than DKs, along with a build in sunder, demo shout, and unique HP buff. Valkyrs will always have slow on them, virtually every class can slow the Valkyrs to their maximum slow level, warriors have the unique ability of being able to AoE stun and single target stun virtually every Valkyr phase.
Most importantly, warriors can Safeguard the MT during Soul Reaper transitions on cooldown.

I have no idea why you think DK's would handle Vile Spirits better than anyone else. You run into them. I guess AMS could be considered a small advantage, but 40-0% is pretty trivial regardless.

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 06:04 PM
@edgewalker lol.. wonder if you have been studying the same fight... it seems to help with the disease spreading if the ghouls are actually within 5 yards of the shambler.. and that involves both aoe snap agro, and aoe tanking, unless of course you have the raid aggro the ghouls and stack on the shambler, which is fail for a plethora of reasons. Fan/Tricks from a rogue helps, but its pretty damn nice to have HB and diseases to keep them all nice and close. Because there should be no dps on the aoe pack, the actual threat generated over time isn't as important as a good snap, but it is particularly helpful none the less if the the LK tank is something like a palladin, as they can't help but create alot of their own aoe threat.

I didn't say DK's could handle Vile Spirits better then anyone else. I simply said "as well as anyone else can" which I think holds its own.

You over exaggerated the number of classes that are viable.. and can slow the valkyries, while kind of neglecting to mention that there are alot of ways to stun them in most raid comps.

Edit: oh yeah, and there are a rediculous number of combinations for any main tank/healer comp that will ensure that a cd is available every 30 seconds.

Vah
02-22-2010, 07:20 PM
It's possible guilds use different strategies for the encounter.

@Neph:
You haven't killed half the bosses in ICC let alone to say what's 'right' or 'wrong' for encounters. Some guilds just have shamblers tanked off to a side and they taunt adds 1 by 1 off the MT/LK tank. Edge was also pointing out in the grand scheme of things in a 25 man raid environment you wouldn't depend on just chillbains for slowing val'kyr's. Don't nit-pick something like that.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 08:25 PM
@edgewalker lol.. wonder if you have been studying the same fight... it seems to help with the disease spreading if the ghouls are actually within 5 yards of the shambler.. and that involves both aoe snap agro, and aoe tanking, unless of course you have the raid aggro the ghouls and stack on the shambler, which is fail for a plethora of reasons. Fan/Tricks from a rogue helps, but its pretty damn nice to have HB and diseases to keep them all nice and close. Because there should be no dps on the aoe pack, the actual threat generated over time isn't as important as a good snap, but it is particularly helpful none the less if the the LK tank is something like a palladin, as they can't help but create alot of their own aoe threat.

I didn't say DK's could handle Vile Spirits better then anyone else. I simply said "as well as anyone else can" which I think holds its own.

You over exaggerated the number of classes that are viable.. and can slow the valkyries, while kind of neglecting to mention that there are alot of ways to stun them in most raid comps.

Edit: oh yeah, and there are a rediculous number of combinations for any main tank/healer comp that will ensure that a cd is available every 30 seconds.

No I haven't been "studying" it, I've been killing it.
The Drudge Ghoul disease build is actually more complex than it needs to be for normal mode LK, it's only something you need to do for heroic shambler HP.
No... there are an extremely large number of classes that can slow the Valkyrs in any given raid setup. DK's (All 3 specs, 2 with talents, 1 with a glyph), Warriors, Rogues, Shaman, Mages, Priests, Warlocks even... there are very few that can consistently stun and debuff them at no loss to DPS like having an OT warrior could.
There are a RIDICULOUS number of ways that your conceived cooldown rotation can go wrong with a death or valkyr carry also. Having a warrior OT is a permanent, low CD cooldown that you can always use (you can't exactly have an OT die).
This is going to sound pretty elitist too, but I have no idea why someone who hasn't killed past Gunship on 25 man would be arguing raid composition on 25 man Lich Kiing with me either? We 2 shot the 10 man version using a warrior OT as well... which becomes drastically more effective given the smaller number of classes providing the warriors overall utility.

Edgewalker
02-22-2010, 08:27 PM
@ Havix - I see you just got the Corroded Key too. I've found it a lot more useful than I thought it would be.
And Gargoyle Split heroic bracers... which makes me hate you. Never seen even the normal modes drop, and the first time I clear the zone on my alt paladin I see the heroic versions.

Aaediyen
02-22-2010, 10:56 PM
Back to the topic at hand, I seem to be getting more agro on the PTR by spamming IT than doing anything else with those frost runes.

Nephelai
02-22-2010, 11:20 PM
No I haven't been "studying" it, I've been killing it.
This is going to sound pretty elitist too, but I have no idea why someone who hasn't killed past Gunship on 25 man would be arguing raid composition on 25 man Lich Kiing with me either?

Wow, it not only sounds elitist, but its carelessly inaccurate considering the fact that I clearly have 25m BQL (guilds first kill, server second) and 25m Dreamwalker kills on the only one of my toons you could possibly know about(granted it is my favorite one). A toon that happened to have changed guilds about a month ago, and since then has been patiently sitting in on raids while the guild veterans do the farming on tuesday, only to be pulled in later in the week to grind the progression wipes, when said veterans don't all show up.

It dosen't really matter, because I lurk enough in enough different forums to know that you tend to incite this kind of back and forth often from players of all experience levels.

@vah Edge has an extremely polarizing way of wording things that gets me going.

Edgewalker
02-23-2010, 02:07 AM
It dosen't really matter, because I lurk enough in enough different forums to know that you tend to incite this kind of back and forth often from players of all experience levels.
.

All I ever ask for is a measure of experience when citing fight mechanics (people that try to explain them because they read a strategy or saw a video are ridiculous), a measure of real world experience (in the same vein, people that theorycraft without playing the game are ridiculous as well), and a measure of reality. Congratulations on your kills, but a BQL/VD kill doesn't really address the main purpose of my post. Why argue mechanics on a fight you haven't experienced?
I never try to be polarizing, but I do try to be truthful. It sucks if you are a frost DK right now. You have a worse / reverse scaling 1 minute cooldown, a non-healing main strike, you are losing a little bit of your defining edge because of the Icy Touch snap threat buff, you have a worse health pool (which doesn't mean everything, but is a measuring stick used by a lot of players), and you have a pretty large negative stigma in the tanking circle. I understand that it's frustrating wanting to raid as a frost DK while people like me constantly bash on the spec, tout Blood, don't give Frost it's due. I can appreciate and respect that.
However, this is a tanking forum. People that come here often want the absolutes on tanking. They want the best spec for each fight, they want the best gear for each fight, they want the best talents for each fight. They want everything broken down into nice little packages. While you CAN find some exceptions to what I am about to say, they are so few and far between, and overall irrelevant, it's better to leave them in the air and let the masses run away with the easy (And generally best) way to do things.

IF you are a raiding DK tank and you want to be the most beneficial to your raid (easiest to keep alive) with the best cooldowns... Go Blood. Stack Stamina. Pick up the new WoTN. Prosper.

You can still be your own player. You can still raid frost. Hell, you can raid Unholy if you want. No one's stopping you, and I'm not saying you are a "noob" or bad if you do. I am simply stating that Blood IS better overall. This change only cements that further. I have no idea why that's so offensive to some people here.

Aaediyen
02-23-2010, 02:22 AM
Well, I can tell you why people are having issues with your comments. You state things matter of fact and your tone is very cold overall. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything and you probably know what you're talking about, but people are going to close up like a mouse trap when you come across like that. At the end of your post you basically are telling people they take offense easily. Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.

Nephelai
02-23-2010, 03:44 AM
Well, I can tell you why people are having issues with your comments. You state things matter of fact and your tone is very cold overall. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything and you probably know what you're talking about, but people are going to close up like a mouse trap when you come across like that. At the end of your post you basically are telling people they take offense easily. Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.

That actually is extremely interesting, and a consequence that I am not particularly crazy about. All of the above got started when I was trying to point out that there is an extremely good way to open a boss fight as frost with a normal single target two disease opener, but then somehow that discussion got extremely derailed. The point I had been trying to make back then is that otherwise good opener has long had one flaw when compared to an HB opener, and that one flaw is the snap aggro provided by IT. From that perspective the change seemed good.

Of course what you have pointed out is interesting and a bit vexing really. I rather like that kind of dps that can be done with a "proper" prioritization system using rime and km procs effectively, and believe that even though dps isn't the tanks fundamental concern, that it contributes to the raid none the less. I am not really crazy with the idea that this system could be replaced with a rotation that sacrifices a large amount of damage for a substandard damage rotation packed with a novelty use of the IT threat multiplier.

Nephelai
02-23-2010, 04:02 AM
All I ever ask for is a measure of experience when citing fight mechanics (people that try to explain them because they read a strategy or saw a video are ridiculous), a measure of real world experience (in the same vein, people that theorycraft without playing the game are ridiculous as well), and a measure of reality. Congratulations on your kills, but a BQL/VD kill doesn't really address the main purpose of my post. Why argue mechanics on a fight you haven't experienced?


I made the comments about LK because... I have off tanked phase one on 10m through a number of attempts and know that what I said about the ease of handling the shamblers and ghouls as a frost dk is sound, because it was extremely easy for me to do. I know that the 25 man timers and mechanic difference for this are not different enough to have any relevancy to what I was saying, because I know what they are from studying the fight.

Phase 2 certainly needs more then chill blains to safely slow the valks in 25 man, chill blains can certainly be sufficient in 10 with maybe one redundant assignment just in case. I know this because I have experienced 10m Phase 2 (our pally tank provided the stun, while tanking the LK at the same time).

My raid comp had a bit of a problem with the fact that DBM didn't tell them who was being targeted with defile, so I haven't experienced phase 3, but I don't see anything about those spirits that particularly favors one class over another, maybe I will discover I am mistaken.

Now, unless this fight is exceedingly different then every single thing i have experienced since naxx, I know that experiencing the 10 man version qualifies as "some measure" of experience that is applicable to the 25m as well.

Edit: Will not respond further to this particular line of discussion unless it is moved to a new thread entitled "are you experienced, have you ever been experienced"

KnThrak
02-23-2010, 05:03 AM
Can I suggest that someone gives Neph and Edge a room to let it all out in? Like their own thread or so? :P

dotJEM
02-23-2010, 06:36 AM
Well, I can tell you why people are having issues with your comments. You state things matter of fact and your tone is very cold overall. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything and you probably know what you're talking about, but people are going to close up like a mouse trap when you come across like that. At the end of your post you basically are telling people they take offense easily. Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.

If that is aimed at my initial posts, I would very much like you to go over them again and outline exactly where you think there is such kind of problems. (until the point where I Exploded at a person waiving the "your not hardcore so these things should not concern you" or whatever flag... not even knowing where I stand on raiding)...

The initial posts contains wordings as "if you ask me", "in my opinion", "personally", "seem to", "Not sure for this"... If those have misguided anyone to belief I was stating anything out from facts, then I Apologise... But are those terms really that hard to understand?... The upper part of the post is all stated as "facts", well it is all copied directly from the PTR patch notes, so if that contains to harsh wording please tell blizzard and not me.

I Do state some along the way... I would like to pick up on some of them...
- "Adding it to Frost Fever as i point out wouldn't only be a Single Target Threat boost, bot an AoE one as well, and that is surely not needed." : The first part is evidently true, if FF got a threat boost our AoE tanking would be improved, I doubt anyone would argue against that. Second part where I say it is surely not needed, ok fair enough correction "I doubt very much that is needed"... none seems to have argued against that however.

- "for slimes currently HB > IT for obvious reasons" : can't see why this shouldn't be true, but ok... I do apologize for not stating is as my conclusion instead of a general one.

If not please remember Quotes :(
_____________________________________________

Besides that, as for the whole Blood vs. Frost fight, fair enough... I fail to understand the dearly blood tanks point of view on all should be blood for end game because that is "simply the best DK tank spec"... why are you people even tanking?... Shouldn't you all go DPS because As far as I know there is better tank classes than us, like in the good old days?

NOTE: I'm not stating in the above that Blood is the best tanking spec, that is taking out from what so many seems to state and use as an argument for blood... I won't get into that fight any more...

Anyways, forget that because I was never here to debate those things, I was here to debate the changes and how they affect different spec's, what might be good, what might be bad, what might be overlooked.

My hope for the Death Knight class is not that we have Blood as the dominant spec that all has to use for tanking in PvE, but that any Death Knight can choose to tank as Frost, Unholy or Blood according to his personal preference, what he think is cool, what he think is fun.

I don't really see the major difference in survival of the to current major spec's, and I do belief it is truly sad that Unholy as a tanking spec seems so dead as I experience it when looking at forums, Frost seems to have a good representation in discussions as well as blood, but can't remember when I last saw a discussion about Unholy as a tanking spec, Indicating that it may be closet to not used...

Edgewalker
02-23-2010, 08:36 AM
Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.

I don't think it will be that much of an issue, Threat past the opening sequence is such a trivial thing most of the time you lose DPS at virtually no gain.

Proletaria
02-23-2010, 09:22 AM
Blood has been the premier tanking spec since the 3.1 unholy nerfs and will continue to be so well into the future.

DK's are no longer used (might be after 3.3.3, but not now) as tanks on LK progression (see fixed bug and disease spreading post) as there are other and better ways to snare valks and handle spirits. Bears/paladins/warriors simply bring much more to the encounter and raid.

Bottom line: I'm not sure how much of this is just inexperience (non-Kingslayers) on the Lich King encounter or how out of touch people have become with this class in general, but i'm totally confused by the amount of bad information here.

jere
02-23-2010, 10:49 AM
DK's are no longer used (might be after 3.3.3, but not now) as tanks on LK progression (see fixed bug and disease spreading post) as there are other and better ways to snare valks and handle spirits. Bears/paladins/warriors simply bring much more to the encounter and raid.

Bottom line: I'm not sure how much of this is just inexperience (non-Kingslayers) on the Lich King encounter or how out of touch people have become with this class in general, but i'm totally confused by the amount of bad information here.



I don't really buy that statement. Just looking at the top 5 kills of 25 man LK at world of logs, at least 2 of them use DK's as tanks. I would agree they are used less, but not at all is really stretching it. It is probably better to cut the hyperbole/misinformation down some in favor of facts. There are may be better ways to tank certain things, but that doesn't make DK's limp in the encounter.

On Topic: The buffs DK's got were very nice. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the WotN buff plays out, but I know our main DK tank is definitely excited.

Esch
02-23-2010, 11:20 AM
On Topic: The buffs DK's got were very nice. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the WotN buff plays out, but I know our main DK tank is definitely excited.

I'm very excited myself, as I function as a Frost tank to provide Imp Icy Talons (Windfury) to the raidgroup. With both a possible recruit/replacement for that buff and the DK changes, I'm looking forward to PTR testing some of the Blood/Unholy (dps) changes. Only issue that Frost does dominate heroic/trash content, which makes me pause as I do enjoy having solid control during heroic dailies for guildmates.

I have noticed a number of "WotN will be OP" comments, but I found out last night that AD is actually very similar now. The major differences are AD's GS aspect and that AD functions at 20%, rather than WotN's 15%. Was AD changed at some point and I missed the note? It does lend credence to WotN 3.3.3 going live as it is on PTR if AD is already performing the same 'full' reductions on hits that cross the 35% threshold as that implies WotN will be comparatively balanced to a talent already in game.

Proletaria
02-23-2010, 11:27 AM
I don't really buy that statement. Just looking at the top 5 kills of 25 man LK at world of logs, at least 2 of them use DK's as tanks. I would agree they are used less, but not at all is really stretching it. It is probably better to cut the hyperbole/misinformation down some in favor of facts. There are may be better ways to tank certain things, but that doesn't make DK's limp in the encounter.

On Topic: The buffs DK's got were very nice. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the WotN buff plays out, but I know our main DK tank is definitely excited.

Once again, seek out the information about pestilence and necrotic plague bug and you will understand why DK tanks were utilized there. It was not hyperbolic to suggest that was the sole reason to bring them (talk with a few of these top DK's if you want more infomation, you can find most of them on the EJ benefactor's forum). I'm certainly excited about the wotn buff, and the Icy Touch buff too.

jere
02-23-2010, 11:32 AM
I was more referring to the assertion that DK's aren't used at all, which isn't really true. Used less, maybe yeah, but not at all seems reaching is all. For one there really isn't even any evidence of that, plus you know there are still going to be people who do non-optimal things and still succeed, regardless of the issues. Warriors are probably the worst off tank in terms of relative survivability, but people will still use warriors to tank everything because they can and they like warriors. I think the same will hold true for DK's, again though, there is no evidence to support the statement in either direction.

jere
02-23-2010, 12:16 PM
I have noticed a number of "WotN will be OP" comments, but I found out last night that AD is actually very similar now. The major differences are AD's GS aspect and that AD functions at 20%, rather than WotN's 15%. Was AD changed at some point and I missed the note? It does lend credence to WotN 3.3.3 going live as it is on PTR if AD is already performing the same 'full' reductions on hits that cross the 35% threshold as that implies WotN will be comparatively balanced to a talent already in game. One of the other big difference is that the 20% reduction only applies to damage below the threshold. It doesn't knock 20% off of the entire hit, just the part that is below 35%.

As an example, if you have 50k HP and get hit for 50K damage as a paladin, then you will take the first 32500 damage of that hit at 100% damage and the last 17500 damage will be reduced down to 14000. So instead of taking a full 50k damage, you would take 46.5k damage after AD, for a net savings of 3500 damage. If a DK with the new WotN took that hit they would take .85*50000 = 42500 damage for a savings of 7500 damage.

There are probably also situations where AD reduces damage better than WotN. I was just using that situation so you could see the difference in how the two abilities are applied. I am not trying to imply one is better/worse than the other at this time, just trying to illustrate the mechanics.

Molecule
02-23-2010, 12:33 PM
There are probably also situations where AD reduces damage better than WotN.

Yup. Specifically, any time more than 75% of the pre-reduction damage you take is below the 35% threshold, AD will reduce more damage than WotN will.

Lord Soth
02-23-2010, 12:33 PM
I seem to be confused about how WotN works on strikes that hit you while you are already under 35%. One guy, and I can't recall where, posted that his logs showed the WotN as an absorb and that they continued so long as the resultant hp total was under 35% regardless of whether or not the hp total prior to the strike was above 35%. If he is right, and not merely talking out his arse, the removal of the CD is a major improvement to WotN, since this would mean any hit while below 35% will be reduced on top of the hit that actually dropped you accross that thresh hold.

Miste
02-23-2010, 12:58 PM
That's how it used to work and does work with the current PTR. On live, it is nearly impossible to remain below 35% and proc WotN again. The initial hit that took you below the 35% threshold procced the original absorb and started the 15s cooldown.

This is not a major buff though. If you spend more than 2-3 seconds below 35% or are constantly dipping down there, your raid is probably heading to a wipe because the boss is about to kill you.

Lord Soth
02-23-2010, 01:04 PM
Well, if you take a cleave from Marrowgar full on and survive, it most assuredly will have dropped you below 35%. That will trigger the 15% reduction. I don't think he ever cleaves back to back, so perhaps the 15% reduction on the follow up swing might actually save you if the healer got spiked or for whatever reason couldn't top you off right away after the cleave....not that you should ever take a cleave full on, but it is an example.

Edit: And this means that PvPers will QQ over the 15% dmg reduction in that last 35% health on a DK.

Esch
02-23-2010, 02:16 PM
One of the other big difference is that the 20% reduction only applies to damage below the threshold. It doesn't knock 20% off of the entire hit, just the part that is below 35%.

I had to double double check, and I'm going to have to metion this tonight. The 'fine print' eluded me when I was discussing this last night. We (myself & raidmate) misconstrued the tooltip. Blargh.

Kazeyonoma
02-23-2010, 02:20 PM
I'll admit I misconstrued the tool tip on Ardent Defender as well since textually they seem the same as WOTN.

Proletaria
02-23-2010, 03:57 PM
I was more referring to the assertion that DK's aren't used at all, which isn't really true. Used less, maybe yeah, but not at all seems reaching is all. For one there really isn't even any evidence of that, plus you know there are still going to be people who do non-optimal things and still succeed, regardless of the issues. Warriors are probably the worst off tank in terms of relative survivability, but people will still use warriors to tank everything because they can and they like warriors. I think the same will hold true for DK's, again though, there is no evidence to support the statement in either direction.

I think it's poor form to assume that dk tanks being used in so few LK kills is fine. Sub-optimal arguments are really straw-men here. You cannot talk about top 200 kills and sub-optimal compositions in the same line of reasoning. As far as warriors go, they have a VERY important role in LK tanking in safeguard/intervene MT for soul reapers as well as stunning valks like a champ. Two things that deathknights cannot do in any form or fashoin. You could argue this isn't tanking the lich king, that it is a secondary role, or any number of red-herring issues, but the fact is warriors have a niche on the lich king encounter and (much like anub'arak before him) the deathknight is fairly sub-standard at any tanking role for the encounter (wotn changes may change this).

There is plenty of evidence regarding tank usage in the logs. Feel free to point out dk tank usage that I missed. According to Zarko's thread on the WoW tanking boards dk representation at the lich king was sub 10% pre-plague gimmick nerf, i'd shudder to think what it is at right now.

jere
02-23-2010, 04:45 PM
I never said the situation was fine (I never said how I thought the situation was either way). However, it isn't nearly as dire as you make it sound either. Saying no DK's tank the LK is simply wrong. There's not much more to that. Is it worse for them? I am not arguing that either way, however, I don't think misrepresenting something is going to help your argument. Hopefully the WotN changes will help out DK's for the LK if it is bad for them.

Edgewalker
02-23-2010, 05:56 PM
Personally I have no problems tanking the LK, the problem is just the huge variance in performance. It isn't as bad as Anub'Arak was, but warriors are still definitely the singular best OT for the fight.
Also I really get annoyed at warriors that complain about being the "OT". The "OT" job is the important job. Nothing about the lich king himself is difficult, it's everything the warriors end up tanking that cause problems. Diseases/Enrages on shamblers, dealing with Valkyrs during defile, and Raging Spirits. I doubt many guilds have issues with Soul Reaper past night 1.

Edgewalker
02-23-2010, 05:59 PM
I don't really buy that statement. Just looking at the top 5 kills of 25 man LK at world of logs, at least 2 of them use DK's as tanks. .

They weren't used for tanking, but for a cheap method of disease stacking. His statement WAS a little exaggerated, but a lot of the (already very low representation) numbers of DK tanks used on LK in the top 200 kills were probably skewed from this result. I would expect in the 10% range now.

jere
02-23-2010, 06:25 PM
Yep, I could see that. I agree about the OT comment too. I think sometime people just get hung up on the OT/MT mentality and forget where the importance lies for an encounter.

Proletaria
02-23-2010, 11:30 PM
Yep, I could see that. I agree about the OT comment too. I think sometime people just get hung up on the OT/MT mentality and forget where the importance lies for an encounter.


You're misunderstanding me. They were off-tanks because of the gimmick. How do you think a no-block tank fares tanking a dozen ghouls and two shamblers? It isn't pretty, and I can assure you that no dk was the "off-tank," in those parses. They were there solely to get plauged, spread it with pest.

I'm not suggesting "oh we got relegated to OT duty!" Far from it. I would relish the idea that i was a highly effective OT. As i mentioned earlier about warriors, between stuns and mobility, intervene/safeguard for reaper, they have a niche. I like the idea of having a niche, but exploting a bug (repeat: BUG, fixed bug) with pestilence is not a niche.

Edgewalker
02-24-2010, 12:06 AM
You're misunderstanding me. They were off-tanks because of the gimmick. How do you think a no-block tank fares tanking a dozen ghouls and two shamblers? It isn't pretty, and I can assure you that no dk was the "off-tank," in those parses. They were there solely to get plauged, spread it with pest.

I'm not suggesting "oh we got relegated to OT duty!" Far from it. I would relish the idea that i was a highly effective OT. As i mentioned earlier about warriors, between stuns and mobility, intervene/safeguard for reaper, they have a niche. I like the idea of having a niche, but exploting a bug (repeat: BUG, fixed bug) with pestilence is not a niche.

He was talking to me, which agrees with you.
Silly bear.

Proletaria
02-24-2010, 12:20 AM
He was talking to me, which agrees with you.
Silly bear.

I didn't take that from his post (even after re-reading it), but i'll take your word for it. Anyhow, to respond to what you said earlier, our representation was fairly low even with that bug live. I find it fairly illogical to assume they went up after the fix.

On the bright side, frost with chillblains is nice for saurfang hardmode if you don't have enough snares... =/

Edgewalker
02-24-2010, 01:22 AM
I didn't take that from his post (even after re-reading it), but i'll take your word for it. Anyhow, to respond to what you said earlier, our representation was fairly low even with that bug live. I find it fairly illogical to assume they went up after the fix.

On the bright side, frost with chillblains is nice for saurfang hardmode if you don't have enough snares... =/

I would expect the representation to go up as more casual 10 man / 25 man guilds with less options got to him. Even on encounters like Vezax HM you saw non-DK tanks gradually rise as guilds with less options got to him / started trying him. Weird phenomenon that doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the class.

I think "I agree about the OT comment too. I think sometime people just get hung up on the OT/MT mentality and forget where the importance lies for an encounter." was referring to me saying Warrior OT's make a bigger difference in the fight than having any other MT. I wish I had AOE Stun, Demo, and Sunder :(

jere
02-24-2010, 05:02 AM
It was in agreement with your statement on how the OT job is the most important in that situation (and I extrapolated to other situations). I think people get too hung up on thinking OT < MT and get riled a lot.

Esch
02-24-2010, 06:38 AM
It was in agreement with your statement on how the OT job is the most important in that situation (and I extrapolated to other situations). I think people get too hung up on thinking OT < MT and get riled a lot.

The stigma of being an 'OT' still lasts from MC content, where two tanks handled 'trash' until the raid could deal with the 'boss'. Until WotLK, if you weren't the MT, you were a lesser tank and thus 'not as good'. I have seen paladins react to this in WotLK by insisting to be the MT, even if fight mechanics favor another tank, or the adds favor sustained AoE tanking. It's not that MT is a more important job, but the fear that doing the OT work will devalue that tank.

My complaint is that DKs are still lacking the AP debuff in the toolbox, and I dislike how in all the changes, that still not on the Dev radar. That lack makes add tanking far more difficult as a result.

Satorri
02-24-2010, 06:45 AM
Just for the sake of being a stickler, has anyone actually proved that WotN *does* act differently from AD (i.e. 15% against the whole hit not the sub 35% portion)?

I haven't seen any evidence of that yet and if anyone has a good link, I would appreciate it.



And people get all bent out of shape about titles. I had a tank rage quit when I told him he was going to be our "4th" tank, which he already was, since he had a swing spec and our 3rd tank did not. Raiding is a team sport, everyone has to play their part to get the job done, we just happen to use the term "Main" tank to refer to the tank on the boss, even if the boss isn't the important tanking job comparatively. Tanking Freya was actually kind of boring, giant green lady following me around while I had other business to attend to. >.<

AP debuffs currently come from Warriors (DPS or Tank), Paladins (Prot, Ret, or Holy can get it, though Holy rarely does), Druids (in Bear form, so usually only from Bears), Hunters (Carrion Bird pets, if they aren't busy min/maxing personal damage with a wolf), and Warlocks (<3 Curse of Weakness). When it really matters you *can* get it. The only situation where you may reasonably want it more (*not* need) would be 10-mans if your group just doesn't have it, but that is part of the challenge of grouping a 10-man for composition.

DK tanks do not *need* to provide it themselves for the sake of balance. We may want it, but we don't *need* it, so there is no good cause for it to be on the Dev table for adding and balancing.

Jedd
02-24-2010, 07:30 AM
Just for the sake of being a stickler, has anyone actually proved that WotN *does* act differently from AD (i.e. 15% against the whole hit not the sub 35% portion)?

I haven't seen any evidence of that yet and if anyone has a good link, I would appreciate it.



Not proof but GC's comments strongly imply it:

" Ardent Defender and Will of the Necropolis work differently. Ardent Defender reduces less of the damage of a big hit that takes you over the threshold, but it has the Cheat Death component instead. They are just different abilities. "

followed by

"Consider a tank with 56,000 health. There are two situations in which she will die:

Situation One: Two 30K melee hits back to back. Healers are asleep or something so there is no healing.
-- A paladin with Ardent Defender will take 30K from the first swing, have ~4000 absorbed from the second and will be dead unless "Cheat Death" is off cooldown.
-- A DK with Will of the Necropolis will take 30K from the first swing, have ~4500 absorbed from the second, and will barely survive.

Situation Two: A single massive spike of 60K damage (Fusion Punch, Sindragosa breath, Soul Reaper, etc.)
-- The paladin will have ~4000 damage absorbed, and will still die, unless "Cheat Death" is off cooldown.
-- The DK will have ~9000 absorbed and will survive, albeit with maybe 5000 health left. She's still dead in the next hit without lots of healing."

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23329103342&sid=1&pageNo=18#341

Proletaria
02-24-2010, 10:52 AM
I would expect the representation to go up as more casual 10 man / 25 man guilds with less options got to him. Even on encounters like Vezax HM you saw non-DK tanks gradually rise as guilds with less options got to him / started trying him. Weird phenomenon that doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the class.

I think "I agree about the OT comment too. I think sometime people just get hung up on the OT/MT mentality and forget where the importance lies for an encounter." was referring to me saying Warrior OT's make a bigger difference in the fight than having any other MT. I wish I had AOE Stun, Demo, and Sunder :(

I think the entire line of argument that MT/OT roles is pissing off (warriors? DK? Not too sure who is implicated..) players to be a tangent. As far as representation goes, of course the larger the sample size, the more likely you are to encounter the outliers (deathknights) you seldom see in a smaller sample (simply because fewer exist in the pool of "raid tanks"). It isn't a "weird" phenomenon that guilds who cannot replace tanks on-demand have to use what they've got and make it work (or wait for nerfs/bench your dk as my guild did for H Anub25). Doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the class? Sure it does. The further down the ladder you travel from world first to last, the more reliant these raids are on having an optimal comp. They don't have kungen tanks, healers with split-second reaction times, and dps who know every nuanced trick they can pull to optomize their effect in a given encounter. If you look at the mechanics of the Lich King encounter, there are three fundamentals to master in normal mode: Necrotic Plague, Valks/Defile, and Soul Reaper (Spirit phase is nasty too, but by the time you get there, you're probably coordinated enough to handle it in a few attempts).

Necrotic Plauge used to be the reason to bring a dk (again, bugged, but a reason nonetheless).
Valks and Defile phase is HUGELY effected by having a warrior tank around.
Soul Reaper is currently tailor-made for bears, and to a lesser extent paladins. A warrior off-tank is also HUGE here. Just cannot stress how amazing the safeguard talent is on this part.
And the entire encounter centers around control of undead adds, snapping threat on newly spawned adds, and manging raid damage. Paladins are top-notch at the general theme of the encounter.

So, chop the top off that list and you have literally nothing a dk does better (heck, nothing a dk even does well, or OK at) in the whole mess. I'll grant you this is ONE encoutner and one of a very few in the game right now that i feel worthless on, but it feels disgusting to know that just like t9, i've come to the final encounter of the instance only to get side-lined for better suited tanks. I'm just hoping they crank out 3.3.3 before I'm tanking him in hardmode.

Edgewalker
02-24-2010, 11:10 AM
I think we are still agreeing with one another and I am just wording it poorly. I don't think it's acceptable that the representation only gets higher because people don't have other options. I also don't like that I MT every other fight in the zone but not LK because warriors are infinitely better at adds and druids are infinitely better at solo tanking Soul Reaper.

Kazeyonoma
02-24-2010, 11:45 AM
how are your warrior tanks picking up the adds, cuz i'm taunting like a fiend and they still walk away from me before they reach me... i've given up and just let my dk drop dnd's onto me and the adds, while i tank LK, and i simply do a charge/shockwave to his adds when he needs an enraged shambling taken care of. I find myself literally spamming taunt (with vig on the other tank for refreshes), and using my throwing weapon just to get them to reach me for me to hit em with a dev/tclap/etc.

Esch
02-24-2010, 12:06 PM
AP debuffs currently <list>. When it really matters you *can* get it. The only situation where you may reasonably want it more (*not* need) would be 10-mans if your group just doesn't have it, but that is part of the challenge of grouping a 10-man for composition.

DK tanks do not *need* to provide it themselves for the sake of balance. We may want it, but we don't *need* it, so there is no good cause for it to be on the Dev table for adding and balancing.

Actually, it's kinda hard to get it in my 25 group, which is why it's annoying. It's taken a fair number of discussions to get the debuff in raids, rather than reliance on a DPS's spec and/or willingness to lose DPS to keep tanks alive. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the same toolbox as other tank classes. Currently, DKs get cooldowns in lieu of shields (IMO) but still lack an AP debuff. Boss tanking is tolerable, but adds... really? Is it reasonable to stick me on a side on Dreamwalker and ask me to rely on X DPS to give me a debuff that the Paladin/Druid/Warrior can provide themselves if they are getting swarmed?

Flavor is variety, differences and other aspects to make classes unique. Toolboxes are filled with tools a role needs, and frankly, Tanking requires an AP Debuff as a mechanic. We can argue the method of application, but the need is real.

For comparison, every healer has an instant, a fast, a large, a 'multiple' heals and debuff-removal, if spec'ed out. How well some abilities work is debatable, but ultimately, you can rely on X healer in Y role the majority of the time if you can't find a better fit, as the toolbox is generally adequate. Aye, some healers fit particular raid roles better, yet it's not that for a class missing a tool that the healer-role has been given.

Does that make a bit more sense? (and apologies for the massive tangent, but I'm still hoping 3.3.3 PTR sneaks said AP Debuff in for at least some testing)

Edgewalker
02-24-2010, 12:41 PM
how are your warrior tanks picking up the adds, cuz i'm taunting like a fiend and they still walk away from me before they reach me... i've given up and just let my dk drop dnd's onto me and the adds, while i tank LK, and i simply do a charge/shockwave to his adds when he needs an enraged shambling taken care of. I find myself literally spamming taunt (with vig on the other tank for refreshes), and using my throwing weapon just to get them to reach me for me to hit em with a dev/tclap/etc.

You can position where they actually spawn from by pointing the LK in various directions. Optimally you want the ranged camp, then the shambler, then the melee camp with the LK. Using drudge ghouls to stack the buff adds more than you need to do, you can just let drudge ghouls beat on random melee and totally ignore them. Once you have their positioning down it's just a matter of an MD, or a shield slam and then running a few yards.

Proletaria
02-24-2010, 12:42 PM
how are your warrior tanks picking up the adds, cuz i'm taunting like a fiend and they still walk away from me before they reach me... i've given up and just let my dk drop dnd's onto me and the adds, while i tank LK, and i simply do a charge/shockwave to his adds when he needs an enraged shambling taken care of. I find myself literally spamming taunt (with vig on the other tank for refreshes), and using my throwing weapon just to get them to reach me for me to hit em with a dev/tclap/etc.

Our prot warrior is spec'd and glyphed for aoe threat (cleaving, etc.) and gets tricks from our rogues at regular intervals (ie. when new adds spawn). Since he doesn't ever have to tank the lich king himself, survial isn't at a premium and he can afford to use this set-up. Stray adds do pop out from time to time, but it's not a flood of aggro to the melee dps.

We tank the Lich king about 10-15 yards from the shambler/ghoul tank, so there isn't much distance for them to travel, and since we've become adept at letting the plague handle the adds for us, our melee position themselves on the opposite side of arthas from the add pile so that incidental isn't causing aggro problems. Basically the adds (with proper plague managment) will burn without any dps help. If your dps are dropping massive aoe, then they are wasting potential dps on arthas. The only excuses are those who have aoe in their regular rotation (ie. ret paladins, warriors, blood deathknights, etc.) and even then, as i said, it's something you can minimize with positioning.

Simple Diagram: (M=melee dps, A=Arthas, T=MT, O=OT, B=Shamblers/Ghouls)

M-A-T------O-B
---*---->------*
(adds spawn and get tricked, then move away from Arthas/dps over to the offtank who sits on them until they die of plague)

Satorri
02-25-2010, 07:17 AM
Actually, it's kinda hard to get it in my 25 group, which is why it's annoying.
Yeah, I've had trouble keeping a 3% miss on the boss in my 25s (which is far harder to come by since there are 4 class/specs who *can* provide it and 1 of which will lose a lot of dps to do so, MM hunters), but I'm not clamoring for that to be given to more people because of it. I think that's just poor fortunes on our part, not for lack of Blizzard's effort.


I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the same toolbox as other tank classes. Currently, DKs get cooldowns in lieu of shields (IMO) but still lack an AP debuff. Boss tanking is tolerable, but adds... really? Is it reasonable to stick me on a side on Dreamwalker and ask me to rely on X DPS to give me a debuff that the Paladin/Druid/Warrior can provide themselves if they are getting swarmed?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have it, but I don't think we *need* it. And for the record, Paladins can only reduce the AP of one target, and that is only if they spec into it (which isn't a terrible reach so it is not uncommon). So we have no more support against multiple targets than Paladins.

By the same measure Paladins and to a slightly lesser degree Bears cannot apply the attack speed debuff as well as we as DKs can. We put it out with FF which is really easy to spread and maintain 100%.

Warriors have a reasonably easy time in that they have a close range pulse on a 6 sec CD they can and usually will use on AoE groups (but can be a pain on a single target compared our always having FF regardless of spec).

Paladins only reduce AP and attack speed on their judged target and judgment CD vs duration is such that you will realistically only have one target covered at a time.

Bears *can* apply it with Maul and Mangle. Normally these are single target but the debuff lasts long enough and the moves have no CDs so that a diligent Bear *can* tab around and place it on multiple targets. If they have Maul glyphed and/or use Berserk they can apply it to multiple targets at a time, but that still requires smart target swapping and will rarely support 100% uptime on every target unless the group is smaller than 5, reasonably speaking.

So the tools are applied differently to different effectiveness for AoE groups you're describing. For ease of coverage and use it would look something like this (Easy ===> Hard):
Attack Speed reduction: DK ===> Warrior =====> Bear ======> Paladin
AP Debuff: Warrior/Bear =============> Paladin (XXDKXX)

I don't think it's really a game balance problem. It would be nice for all the tanks to be able to do it, but I don't think we're suffering from not being able to.




Flavor is variety, differences and other aspects to make classes unique. Toolboxes are filled with tools a role needs, and frankly, Tanking requires an AP Debuff as a mechanic. We can argue the method of application, but the need is real.
If it were *needed* we would fail as tanks without it. And we don't. Ergo no *need*.

The miss chance provided by raid buffs is easily as important a tool, but none of the tanks can provide it. Wouldn't it be nice if we could for reliability? That doesn't mean we *need* to be able to. Raid balancing is part of what makes raids interesting. Not everyone can do it the same for availability, but because some cannot does not mean the system is broken and needs fixing.


For comparison, every healer has an instant, a fast, a large, a 'multiple' heals and debuff-removal, if spec'ed out. How well some abilities work is debatable, but ultimately, you can rely on X healer in Y role the majority of the time if you can't find a better fit, as the toolbox is generally adequate. Aye, some healers fit particular raid roles better, yet it's not that for a class missing a tool that the healer-role has been given.
Healers suffer the same vulnerability. You can't go based on heals, as that is more appropriately likened to our threat building tools. Instead let's compare utility to utility, you mentioned dispels.

Priests = dispel magic (2 at a time), and Abolish Diseases (ticking removals) (Holy *can* spec to dispel Poisons but it is rare for that to be 100%, if at all)
Paladins = dispel magic, poison, and disease (1 of each per cast, must spam to dispel stacks)
Druiids = dispel curses (1 at a time), Abolish Poisons (ticking removals)
Shamans = dispel poisons/diseases via totem (like an abolish but AoE single cast), dispel one poison/disease/curse (1 each per cast, spam to remove stacks)

Priests and Paladins can't touch curses, Druids and Shamans can't touch magic, Druids can't do diseases. It is not uniform, you rely on the group to provide the coverage, sometimes asking DPSers to help with dispels when it matters, the same as asking DPS to provide damage reduction.

Fathom
02-25-2010, 11:08 AM
Tank toolkits are never going to be completely uniform, since it's boring game design to have every tank class have identical tools for all situations. Blizz has been pretty clear that they think some disparity is necessary to keep the game interesting, and the AP debuff seems like one of those places where DK's get the short end of the stick and we have to live with it.

Given that it's not like we don't enjoy the flipside of these kinds of design decisions (one of two tank classes with a short cd interrupt, one of two tank classes with a ranged silence, one of two with more than one short cd taunt) it's not the most onerous thing in the world.

Proletaria
02-25-2010, 12:35 PM
Tank toolkits are never going to be completely uniform, since it's boring game design to have every tank class have identical tools for all situations. Blizz has been pretty clear that they think some disparity is necessary to keep the game interesting, and the AP debuff seems like one of those places where DK's get the short end of the stick and we have to live with it.

Given that it's not like we don't enjoy the flipside of these kinds of design decisions (one of two tank classes with a short cd interrupt, one of two tank classes with a ranged silence, one of two with more than one short cd taunt) it's not the most onerous thing in the world.

GC posted recently that "good feedback" on the WoW boards was exemplified by someone saying "I don't like my class because of ...," although he did point out that might be vague. I wish more players would come forward and explain how annoying it is to be the sole tank without an ap debuff.

We're one of two classes with or without a lot of things, but we are not one of two with the ap debuff. We're on our own there. And yes, you can work around it. I've worked around it for a year now. It's no more or less annoying than it was, but each time there is an encounter *cough lich king* where it is a CRITICAL damage reduction for some important burst *cough soul reaper* I get to spend the next few mins wondering if i can have the ret pally take care of me, or if i need to ask the warlock to keep CoW up.

In the end, it's a disparity that is going to stick around a while. Blizzard has shown they are willing to fix a LOT of things before they are willing to re-examine homogenized utility. I think it will be the success or failure of the DK tank class/spec to rebound at the end of the expansion, and going into cata, that will decide wether or not we still lack that basic debuff.

Edgewalker
02-25-2010, 03:14 PM
It isn't FLAVOR to not have an AP debuff. It's an oversight, and it's poor design.
People misuse the term flavor or design decision way too much. WoTN vs AD is flavor. Vamp Blood vs Last Stand is flavor. Flat out not having what should be a baseline ability for any tanking class is, for lack of a better term, dumb.

Acidbaron
02-25-2010, 04:08 PM
Death Knight tanks (blood) Give an AP raid buff 10%, okay it doesn't stack with that of other classes. But neither does the AP hostile debuff.

In addition, we have Hysteria increasing physical damage of 20% for 30 seconds, long 3 min CD should be reduced to 2 minutes to be in line with other things but okay. It's still a massive boost for fury warriors and feral druids especially.

Which is unique in comparison to the other tank classes unless i'm mistaken.

Fathom
02-25-2010, 04:25 PM
It isn't FLAVOR to not have an AP debuff. It's an oversight, and it's poor design.
People misuse the term flavor or design decision way too much. WoTN vs AD is flavor. Vamp Blood vs Last Stand is flavor. Flat out not having what should be a baseline ability for any tanking class is, for lack of a better term, dumb.

Sorry, but that's a pretty subjective statement. You've, as far as I can tell, just arbitrarily declared some abilities as a 'baseline tanking ability' and some not, and in a way that leads to all sorts of odd conclusions if you follow it through.

If Vamp Blood vs. Last Stand is a flavor difference does that mean Pallies and Frost DKs are missing a baseline ability? How about a 10s interrupt, I could probably argue that that's a baseline tank ability, maybe even a baseline melee ability, if I really wanted to, but Pallies are shut out from that. Wouldn't it be reasonable for Pallies to argue for a charge under this kind of logic (all the other tanking classes have some sort of ability to move them or the mob into melee range instantly, surely that counts as tanking baseline)? How about giving DK's a raid health buff? All the other tanks have one (commanding shout/gift/sanc).

Calling something a baseline tanking ability just because you want it is just calvinball.

Edgewalker
02-25-2010, 05:47 PM
[QUOTE=Fathom;381588
If Vamp Blood vs. Last Stand is a flavor difference does that mean Pallies and Frost DKs are missing a baseline ability?
Calling something a baseline tanking ability just because you want it is just calvinball.[/QUOTE]

Are you being 10% serious with that statement, or are you just trying to troll?

Fathom
02-25-2010, 05:59 PM
Are you being 10% serious with that statement, or are you just trying to troll?

With which statement? That a Last Stand-like temporary health boost is a baseline tank ability? No, that was hyperbole to demonstrate how thin the basis for declaring an AP debuff a baseline tank ability was (i.e. that you could declare Last Stand/Vamp Blood/Survival Instincts a baseline tank ability with pretty much the same logic).

That arbitrarily calling an AP debuff a baseline tank ability is calvinball? Not only 10% serious, but 100% serious.

Edgewalker
02-25-2010, 07:17 PM
That arbitrarily calling an AP debuff a baseline tank ability is calvinball? Not only 10% serious, but 100% serious.

It's really not even worth it to argue with you people sometimes :\
I'm just going to let this one go.

Proletaria
02-26-2010, 02:19 AM
Death Knight tanks (blood) Give an AP raid buff 10%, okay it doesn't stack with that of other classes. But neither does the AP hostile debuff.

In addition, we have Hysteria increasing physical damage of 20% for 30 seconds, long 3 min CD should be reduced to 2 minutes to be in line with other things but okay. It's still a massive boost for fury warriors and feral druids especially.

Which is unique in comparison to the other tank classes unless i'm mistaken.

Poor comparison. You might compare Abom's might to Blessing of Might, Battle Shout, or Leader of the Pack, but not AP debuffing. You also might compare hysteria to battle rez, divine sacrifice, or sunder armor, but, once again, not AP debuffing.

If you actually run down the utilities a dk bring to the table (in a tank spec, usually blood), you have a VERY short list indeed. We certainly aren't bursting at the seems with these tools, and I've got to wonder why people continue to point to Hysteria and Abom's Might (the sum total of our raid contribution) and imply that these amazing talents make an ap debuff for dks a laughable concept.

Xequecal
02-26-2010, 02:42 AM
One thing I think is seriously being overlooked is the huge value of Icy Touch doing damage * 7 as threat. This is insane. It means that threat no longer matters in the slightest, you can gear/spec for total survivability. Go ahead and spec 43/23/5 while dual-wielding Crusader's Glory. You'll still break 10k TPS! With 6500 AP and that spec, simply casting Icy Touch once every 5 seconds does over 5k TPS by itself!

Acidbaron
02-26-2010, 05:50 AM
Poor comparison. You might compare Abom's might to Blessing of Might, Battle Shout, or Leader of the Pack, but not AP debuffing. You also might compare hysteria to battle rez, divine sacrifice, or sunder armor, but, once again, not AP debuffing.

If you actually run down the utilities a dk bring to the table (in a tank spec, usually blood), you have a VERY short list indeed. We certainly aren't bursting at the seems with these tools, and I've got to wonder why people continue to point to Hysteria and Abom's Might (the sum total of our raid contribution) and imply that these amazing talents make an ap debuff for dks a laughable concept.

I was pointing out that we had our own -unique- tools to our disposal compared to other tanks, my post wasn't intended to say our raid buffs were the best of all or to even be a comparison in strenght.

My point was that we do bring something to a 10 man setup and that our buffs in 25 man setup are also often overwritten or 'useless' as other classes can do so, but yes we are most subject to our tools becoming useless as the AP buff is passive and so is it from other classes while you'll never see another dps warrior use sunder/demo shout etc unless asked for, and that our other on target debuff part is of a spell all other dps dk use aswel.

it's not because i'm not shouting for more utility that i'm opposed to the idea of getting another tool.

Emi
02-26-2010, 08:03 AM
One thing I think is seriously being overlooked is the huge value of Icy Touch doing damage * 7 as threat. This is insane. It means that threat no longer matters in the slightest, you can gear/spec for total survivability. Go ahead and spec 43/23/5 while dual-wielding Crusader's Glory. You'll still break 10k TPS! With 6500 AP and that spec, simply casting Icy Touch once every 5 seconds does over 5k TPS by itself!
I recall reading a post with some math comparing it to what SS did and the end result was about the same which was what GC stated was their intention.

Furthermore, im getting more and more worried from DK's that see this change to IT and get all nuts about it for the wrong reasons. I cant help but picture them abusing this change in order to satisfy their own ego which will end up resulting in a nerf. Really, this change is being made to remove a long time disadvantage DK's had and not to enable you to win every TPS race with another tank on a epeen contest.

Satorri
02-26-2010, 09:46 AM
I actually already have an idea for a fix in mind. I'll bounce it off you all before I post it officially.

Adjust it so that IT does this added threat, when in Frost Pres, on targets not affected by FF.

That's what I'm playing with so far. It would keep it from suggesting an all-IT spec (which I can already imagine how to create), and it would not make Glyph of Disease even less appealing to the people who are already a minority. It could still be used heavily but you would then want to consider its value against Epidemic, and add an element of risk and reward for letting FF fall off and losing the debuff.


And just because I'm thinking about it, the IT-spam spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0E00hZhxe0A0Ioc0fuzAo0x:Tad

Finally a reason to take BotN *and* DRM. OB to convert FU pairs, BS to convert Blood runes, and spam IT like it's going out of style with about the best damage you could hope for (and a crit on demand, thank you Deathchill). I don't think the spec could be touched for burst threat. IT twice on the way in, Pest when you get there, BS BS (RS procs), Blood Tap, OB, then dump a couple FS and laugh all the way home.

Emi
02-26-2010, 10:31 AM
That has already been mentioned on the wow forums Satorri. Anyway it would also mean we'd actually want to have FF drop if we want to hold on to the threat gain. Not sure i like that for both threat but specially because it means letting the attack speed debuff drop. Perhaps adjust the threat modifier in case FF is already on but not remove it completely.

Satorri
02-26-2010, 10:52 AM
Well, the purpose of the change, purportedly was to improve our burst threat on picking up new targets, not to buff our threat overall which has not been questioned.

We'll see what comes of it and roll with the punches, so to speak. =)

Esch
02-26-2010, 12:08 PM
Priests and Paladins can't touch curses, Druids and Shamans can't touch magic, Druids can't do diseases. It is not uniform, you rely on the group to provide the coverage, sometimes asking DPSers to help with dispels when it matters, the same as asking DPS to provide damage reduction.

The toolboxes, however, are consistent. All healers have some sort of cleansing (with GC already stating that making it possible for any healer to remove any debuff being a Cataclysm consideration), some combination of buffs (PW:Fort, MotW, Blessings & Totems) along with a selection of heals I listed previously.

If you were were talking pre Vengance, where only druids/warriors had a AP Debuff, I feel you'd have an adequate argument. However, druids picked up a shield mechanic, which DKs can emulate with cooldowns, but three of four tank classes have an AP debuff when Vengance changed. DKs don't have an AP Debuff. It's an imbalance and is proving to be an issue that arises on add fights, with Dreamwalker being my current example.

If you would prefer to argue healers, remove the ability of one of them, any of them, to have access to an instanct heal/shield/OhCrAp button (Riptide, Holy Shock, PW:Shield & druid HoTs come to mind). Then put that healer into current content. The healer would rightfully state they're missing part of the default toolbox Blizzard has considered for developing content, and thus making it much harder to perform for lack of that tool.

This isn't a 'grass is greener' issue IMO, but a reality that the toolbox has specific abilities that can vary to allow flavor. However, if you put a warrior, druid or paladin on X mob, they have the option to AP Debuff. DKs are forced to rely on external sources or simply suck the extra hits. How much extra damage and thus pressure does that put on the DK player (and his healers) merely for an oversight by Blizzard?

If you don't mind Satorri, may we move this to tells at this point if you wish to continue? I'm derailing this discussion at this point.

Proletaria
02-26-2010, 12:59 PM
I was pointing out that we had our own -unique- tools to our disposal compared to other tanks, my post wasn't intended to say our raid buffs were the best of all or to even be a comparison in strenght.

My point was that we do bring something to a 10 man setup and that our buffs in 25 man setup are also often overwritten or 'useless' as other classes can do so, but yes we are most subject to our tools becoming useless as the AP buff is passive and so is it from other classes while you'll never see another dps warrior use sunder/demo shout etc unless asked for, and that our other on target debuff part is of a spell all other dps dk use aswel.

it's not because i'm not shouting for more utility that i'm opposed to the idea of getting another tool.

My point is merely that, regardless of the utility we currently have, we're far below that of any other tank. Right now I believe the AP debuff is the most important thing we lack. We do hear a lot about how we are just envious of another tank(s)' toolset, but it's fairly standard at this point on all tanks, and regardless of how the content is balanced, their is an assumed balance by all tanks having the tool but one. Namely: that your raid won't have to jerry-rig it's comp, or tell some of it's dps to focus on keeping a target debuffed.

Vlad
02-26-2010, 06:36 PM
Come on now, I was having a fun little back and forth with Edgewalker, but his posts are at least not so narrowly biased as to completely ignore things.

You laughed off Frigid Deadplate.. but most of us realize that 3percent avoidance, is 3 percent avoidance, and certainly not to be scoffed.

You completely ignore Improved Frost presence even though, assuming a 50K hit, it would be 1000 mitigation, while listing "more health" under blood... er uh... 1 percent more stam per point, right?

You mention spell deflection while ignoring acclimation. Really now, the 30 percent chance of having an extra 50 resistance to one hit is higher odds then your parry chance... and it just might even stack.

You made no mention of the fact that frosts IBF lasts quite a bit longer then bloods (6 more seconds is an eternity in the world of cd's)

And heres a little frost tank secret.. since after the start of a fight we are usually boasting a nice fat threat lead, we can allways break our prioritization to do atypical sub optimal threat stuff, when needed... like when our healer is cc'd, or out of los behind an iceblock, or otherwise not able to get that next couple heals off... we do have DS on our toolbar, and some of us actually do know how to use it. Granted, we get a 10percent heal instead of a 15percent heal.. but then we specialize in creating FU pairs.. so...

You kinda left a few things out of unholy too, like better magic damage survival tools then either of us have, but even people who like to use UH know that it is lagging behind the other two trees in a number of respects.

Indeed, all good points.. I am a blood bigot tho :)

Proletaria
02-26-2010, 07:36 PM
Indeed, all good points.. I am a blood bigot tho :)

Except avoidance IS to be scoffed at in present content (and most of the content this expansion), acclimation is truly awful (doesn't even proc off sindragosa's arua, i mean, c'mon), and the extra mitigation from fp/extra uptime on IBF is only sitautionally better than what blood can offer. Those situations are: physical damage so high that 2% more dmg off a hit is > the thousands of hp gained by VotTW and said hit is just so ludacriously large that VB doesn't allow you to consistantly survive. WOTN on a 15s cd made blood a little behind on those giant physical hits (if it happened to go on cd before the actual burst came), but post-patch I doubt you can even count that as a blood shortcoming.

The change to wotn pretty well cements blood as superior.

Feanorr
02-26-2010, 09:58 PM
Adjust it so that IT does this added threat, when in Frost Pres, on targets not affected by FF.

I had the same idea. The only problem I see is that it have to be affected only by your FF; not sure how difficult it would be technically.

Another solution will be to create an all new ability, with the same effect but with a cd (of 6sec or so); it would prevent us to spam it, without messing with the dps use of IT. The problem I see there is if it miss, we cant recast it; maybe make it a physical attack for less miss. This solution is not as good as the first one, but if the first one is technically hard to implement, it will be better than just nerfing the threat.

Edgewalker
02-26-2010, 10:43 PM
How much threat IT does after the initial application is totally and completely irrelevant. DK burst threat needed the help, not the sustained. Completely destroying a solid DPS/DS rotation for even 2000 extra TPS would be extremely pointless anywhere past 10 seconds into the fight. The change was for Marrowgar/LDW/Valithria types of encounters, it works for those encounters, and undoubtedly won't change how traditional single target threat is handled. I don't think Blizzard would care if people used some weird hybrid specs that spam IT... it just means some player out there wants unneeded omen numbers at the expense of stats that might actually matter, like damage and survivability.

Stengel
02-27-2010, 01:47 AM
how are your warrior tanks picking up the adds, cuz i'm taunting like a fiend and they still walk away from me before they reach me...

I swapped with the paladin tank and he does the adds now. It seems to work much better. If you want to tank the adds, make sure you do not taunt them too early, otherwise the damage they take from aoe effects will be enough to make them walk straight back after the fixate from taunt wears off. I suppose tricks is your best bet. Educate your dps to focus on single target dps on the LK instead of padding the meter cleaving ghouls. I'd recommend saving Heroic Throw for Horrors.

If you insist on having a DK as offtank, charge/shockwave to help him dealing with enrages seems inefficient, let a hunter dispel the enrage effects instead, and have a warlock drop Curse of Weakness on Horrors to lower their damage.

Nephelai
02-27-2010, 02:21 AM
Except avoidance IS to be scoffed at in present content (and most of the content this expansion), acclimation is truly awful (doesn't even proc off sindragosa's arua, i mean, c'mon), and the extra mitigation from fp/extra uptime on IBF is only sitautionally better than what blood can offer. Those situations are: physical damage so high that 2% more dmg off a hit is > the thousands of hp gained by VotTW and said hit is just so ludacriously large that VB doesn't allow you to consistantly survive. WOTN on a 15s cd made blood a little behind on those giant physical hits (if it happened to go on cd before the actual burst came), but post-patch I doubt you can even count that as a blood shortcoming.

The change to wotn pretty well cements blood as superior.

Quick napkin math. A tank who takes 25K hits after all mitigation save frost presence (improved or otherwise) and who has 40 percent avoidance (dodge/parry/miss) before frigid dead plate.

Without frigid dead plate and without improved frost presence, said tank will average 41,400 damage in the average three auto attacks.
3[0.6*0.92(25000)]=41,400
With frigid dead plate and with improved frost presence the same tank will average 38,475 damage in the average three auto attacks.
3[.57*0.90(25000)]=38,475

25K is not "so high" by ICC standards, and yet that 2,925 point difference is greater then the "thousands of health" worth of stamina difference you are getting out of VoTW, and we haven't even dealt enough damage to bottom out yet. The disparity only becomes greater as you increase damage until the combination of incoming damage netted against heals finally drops you below the 35% threshhold.

Granted, the above will have to be re-evaluated in terms of WoTN once we see how it plays out live.

As far as acclimation goes, if it procced off of Sindragossa's aura, it would be rediculously OP, just as it was OP on twin valks (constant 3 stack uptime against both schools), or on either of the most recent two VoA fights. A constant 150 resistance would marginalize the tanking challenge in that fight and create a huge margin of error on the tank rotation for the other tank (particularly if combined with other sources of frost resistance).

Instead, the 30 percent chance of having 50 more resistance just "helps," and has better odds of helping then spell deflection... better odds of proccing on one breath, and it sticks around for 12 seconds when it does proc. The talent does not need to stack to reduce damage, it just needs to stack to make the damage reduction rediculous.

Edit: oh yeah, and frost presence damage reduction applies to all damage, not just the physical type.

KnThrak
02-27-2010, 04:25 AM
I think that's one often undervalued part of Frost. The passive damage reductions read weak, but they aren't, and Acclimation is less chancy than it appears (12s is a fairly large window, I just wish the procchance was higher). Just to be sure though, if I proc it from a certain attack, is the 50 Resist already applied to that very attack?

Satorri
02-27-2010, 05:29 AM
I don't think Blizzard would care if people used some weird hybrid specs that spam IT... it just means some player out there wants unneeded omen numbers at the expense of stats that might actually matter, like damage and survivability.

For you or I, I don't think they would. The place where they would care is for the people to whom it does matter. When you take an under-geared tank and have them able to out-threat tanks in superior gear easily *and* it starts being abused, then they have concerns.

The truth is, threat really does matter to some people, it is a challenge and a struggle. It's not all epeening.

Proletaria
02-27-2010, 10:49 AM
Quick napkin math. A tank who takes 25K hits after all mitigation save frost presence (improved or otherwise) and who has 40 percent avoidance (dodge/parry/miss) before frigid dead plate.

Without frigid dead plate and without improved frost presence, said tank will average 41,400 damage in the average three auto attacks.
3[0.6*0.92(25000)]=41,400
With frigid dead plate and with improved frost presence the same tank will average 38,475 damage in the average three auto attacks.
3[.57*0.90(25000)]=38,475

25K is not "so high" by ICC standards, and yet that 2,925 point difference is greater then the "thousands of health" worth of stamina difference you are getting out of VoTW, and we haven't even dealt enough damage to bottom out yet. The disparity only becomes greater as you increase damage until the combination of incoming damage netted against heals finally drops you below the 35% threshhold.

Granted, the above will have to be re-evaluated in terms of WoTN once we see how it plays out live.

As far as acclimation goes, if it procced off of Sindragossa's aura, it would be rediculously OP, just as it was OP on twin valks (constant 3 stack uptime against both schools), or on either of the most recent two VoA fights. A constant 150 resistance would marginalize the tanking challenge in that fight and create a huge margin of error on the tank rotation for the other tank (particularly if combined with other sources of frost resistance).

Instead, the 30 percent chance of having 50 more resistance just "helps," and has better odds of helping then spell deflection... better odds of proccing on one breath, and it sticks around for 12 seconds when it does proc. The talent does not need to stack to reduce damage, it just needs to stack to make the damage reduction rediculous.

Edit: oh yeah, and frost presence damage reduction applies to all damage, not just the physical type.

Theorycraft does tell us that avoidance will reduce our damage (often by a great deal) over time, but this just ignores the reality of tank healing (namely 1-2 seconds refills your hp to the top barring mechanics to prevent it) and spike damage. EH > Avoidance is not highly debated anymore. Most people accept the fact that having more health is better in nearly every situation. ICC doesn't have any notable exceptions.

Acclimation works wonders on saphiron and the valks. Two very easy encounters without that talent. I don't see how you could judge this as anything but a complete failure of a talent, espcially given it's location in the tree and the cost. I don't think it SHOULD necessarily be worth it all the time (making unholy loose it's niche, essentially), but it is halarious to consider it as the stronger bit of frost as a tanking tree.

2% dr vs. 1k hp. The hit landing would need to be in excess of 50k dmg in order to make the 2% dr of greater value than the health. Add in the wotn proc and you essentially have no scenario where imp fp is a superior choice. Any hit that large is going to be mitigated by wotn. Simply put, the combination of physical only cooldown, avoidance, and 2% dr does not compare in practical ICC appciations to universal cooldown, stamina, and wotn. That isn't to say "nowhere is UBA more effective," which clearly isn't true, but anywhere UBA is more effective (festergut) wotn (espcially post-patch brings blood back up to par. Nowhere is it ineffective to spec blood.

KnThrak
02-27-2010, 04:45 PM
Sorry Proletaria, but that's just a plain misconstruction of how Frost vs Blood works.
Please compare (if you want to compare) +3% Stamina vs -2% damage taken, and separately selfhealing vs 3% avoidance.

Just like 3% Avoidance, Selfhealing is overcompensated by the healers. It is still an often-praised fact of Blood that skilled blood tanks can cushion blows themselves. And it is important. Still the healers heal you as if you don't do that but if they ever for whatever reason can't do it there chance you survive it either way. Same with the Avoidance.

Tomehere321
02-27-2010, 11:39 PM
Frost tanks are using acclimation?? I havent ran a frost spec since before i got into tanking raids, mind you, but even then acclimation was a weak area to put points in.
I always thought that a big reason frost tanks didnt take this talent was that frost spec didnt really have much leeway with where u could put your points, esspecialy if your going to dw (which if your running frost you probably are dw'ing). I think that there are better places to put those points that would pay off more in the long run. Sorry if this seems a bit off-topic, but i just saw the word acclimation and got a little scared O.O

Proletaria
02-28-2010, 01:54 AM
Sorry Proletaria, but that's just a plain misconstruction of how Frost vs Blood works.
Please compare (if you want to compare) +3% Stamina vs -2% damage taken, and separately selfhealing vs 3% avoidance.

Just like 3% Avoidance, Selfhealing is overcompensated by the healers. It is still an often-praised fact of Blood that skilled blood tanks can cushion blows themselves. And it is important. Still the healers heal you as if you don't do that but if they ever for whatever reason can't do it there chance you survive it either way. Same with the Avoidance.


Where did i mention self-healing?

Nephelai
02-28-2010, 12:14 PM
Frost tanks are using acclimation?? I havent ran a frost spec since before i got into tanking raids, mind you, but even then acclimation was a weak area to put points in.
I always thought that a big reason frost tanks didnt take this talent was that frost spec didnt really have much leeway with where u could put your points, esspecialy if your going to dw (which if your running frost you probably are dw'ing). I think that there are better places to put those points that would pay off more in the long run. Sorry if this seems a bit off-topic, but i just saw the word acclimation and got a little scared O.O

I have run numerous specs both with and without acclimation, and the damage difference patterns are visible in many many fights, though they are larger in some then others. Assuming you have about 130 resist to the school of magic you are taking damage from (usual raid baseline), the first stack increases your mean damage reduction by about 7 percent to that school, the second stack increases your mean damage reduction by about 5 percent, and the third stack increases your mean damage reduction about 4 percent (reflecting the diminishing returns nature of resistance). At each position the actual percent of partial resist is represented by a probability distribution divided into discreet 10 percent damage reduction brackets. As you can see, the biggest decrease in damage taken per second from a particular school actually occurs with the first stack, the other stacks are just icing.

If you look at logs you can see varying levels of uptimes on all of the following fights: Lady Deathwhisper, Blood Prince Council, Valithria Dreamwalker, Festergut, Sindragossa. In all of those cases it is reducing exactly as much damage intake as it is supposed to. In a world where tanks produce way more cruising threat then they need, and where everyone knows that some of the popular threat talents in frost tank builds go into sub par stats, I can't imagine why you can't free up a couple of points to pick up the only direct magic damage reduction talent you have available. Especially when it really does decrease your magic damage, it really is fairly reliable, and the percents of increased partial resists that accompany each stack really are significant.

When I went DW I just pulled two points out of Black Ice, and haven't missed them. You could also pull one out of KM and keep 4/5 black ice, since there is a strong opinion that the last point in KM results mostly in proc over writes. I don't really care to debate all the threat stats you can pull those points from and still go 3/3 acclimation, without ever noticing the small threat loss. The important thing is the often hailed statements against acclimation are made by people who just got pissed off when they saw the resistance formulas and accompanying tables, and didn't want to take the time to figure out what they all meant. They have decided the talent sucks, because they don't want to take the time to understand what it is doing.

KnThrak
02-28-2010, 01:27 PM
Where did i mention self-healing?

Sorry, it sounded needlessly provocative. Didn't mean to incite, just typed it very bad. :(

Anyways, what I wanted to say was: Presenting 3% stamina for Blood cannot be done without mentioned 2% mitigation for Frost. These stack very nicely against each other, 103% HP against 100% damage respectively 100% HP vs 98% damage.

Now saying that the 3% Avoidance is useless because it gets overcompensated by healers is a fair assessment - if questionable - but should not be done without also mentioning that Blood's often-stated selfhealing is just the same in a different colour really. If one ignores both - fair enough. But then one is still left with Blood having nothing above Frost which warrants going Blood if the Raid could use IIT for raidutility and got 10% AP covered.

So it comes down the ol' faithful: utility the raid needs decides first and foremost. Now if one compares unreliable survival, there is also selfhealing & WotN (yes I call the new one "unreliable", no healer is ever going to try reduce the healing to specifically account for WotN, you get healed just as much as if you didn't have the talent!) vs 3% Avoidance & Acclimation.

And ofc there's Unholy. *sigh*

Edgewalker
02-28-2010, 02:55 PM
So it comes down the ol' faithful: utility the raid needs decides first and foremost. Now if one compares unreliable survival, there is also selfhealing & WotN (yes I call the new one "unreliable", no healer is ever going to try reduce the healing to specifically account for WotN, you get healed just as much as if you didn't have the talent!) vs 3% Avoidance & Acclimation.

And ofc there's Unholy. *sigh*

Uhh.... new WOTN is about as reliable as it gets as far as tanking cooldowns go. It's more reliable than Toughness and Anticipation, it's better than Imp. FP, it's better than Frigid Dreadplate by a mile and UBA on a lot of encounters. New WOTN is the DEFINITION of reliable.

KnThrak
02-28-2010, 03:14 PM
Uhh.... new WOTN is about as reliable as it gets as far as tanking cooldowns go. It's more reliable than Toughness and Anticipation, it's better than Imp. FP, it's better than Frigid Dreadplate by a mile and UBA on a lot of encounters. New WOTN is the DEFINITION of reliable.

And gets 100% ignored by healers when judging in their inner mind how to heal you. Contrary to 3% more stamina or 2% less damage taken which are constant effects over your entire healthpool. Yes, WotN will in some situations save your life. If we trust Blizzard not in many, this'd be consistent with how AD works actually (ignoring it's 1Up). But it's not reliable in the sense that healers can depend on it to reduce the healing you need - just as they can't rely on 3% Avoidance or Blood's selfhealing.

Edgewalker
02-28-2010, 05:25 PM
And gets 100% ignored by healers when judging in their inner mind how to heal you. Contrary to 3% more stamina or 2% less damage taken which are constant effects over your entire healthpool. Yes, WotN will in some situations save your life. If we trust Blizzard not in many, this'd be consistent with how AD works actually (ignoring it's 1Up). But it's not reliable in the sense that healers can depend on it to reduce the healing you need - just as they can't rely on 3% Avoidance or Blood's selfhealing.

WoTN will always, always reduce the amount of raw healing you need to survive. Healer's do not change their healing style for virtually anything in the game once it hits for a base amount of damage... they spam and it's up to the tanks avoidance, armor, stamina, cooldowns, AD/WoTN to keep them alive. If you think healers reactively heal or judge based on the life remaining on a tank or a 2% stamina difference, you clearly have never played a healer anywhere beyond blue geared heroic content.
Luckily for DK's we have WoTN (active VERY reliably 100% of the time, at a fixed health percentage) that increases our virtual health pool significantly.

Proletaria
02-28-2010, 11:57 PM
Sorry, it sounded needlessly provocative. Didn't mean to incite, just typed it very bad. :(

Anyways, what I wanted to say was: Presenting 3% stamina for Blood cannot be done without mentioned 2% mitigation for Frost. These stack very nicely against each other, 103% HP against 100% damage respectively 100% HP vs 98% damage.

Now saying that the 3% Avoidance is useless because it gets overcompensated by healers is a fair assessment - if questionable - but should not be done without also mentioning that Blood's often-stated selfhealing is just the same in a different colour really. If one ignores both - fair enough. But then one is still left with Blood having nothing above Frost which warrants going Blood if the Raid could use IIT for raidutility and got 10% AP covered.

So it comes down the ol' faithful: utility the raid needs decides first and foremost. Now if one compares unreliable survival, there is also selfhealing & WotN (yes I call the new one "unreliable", no healer is ever going to try reduce the healing to specifically account for WotN, you get healed just as much as if you didn't have the talent!) vs 3% Avoidance & Acclimation.

And ofc there's Unholy. *sigh*

I ofc grant you that self-healing is difficult to count on for more than overheals (with a few notable exceptions like old Hardmode Vezzax), and yes, that puts it in similar territory to avoidance, but the self-healing components of blood aren't talented (rune-tap and mark of blood are usually left out of a standard blood spec) so it's not really a fair comparison. If i dropped 3 talent points for death-strike to heal me, (and imp DS is just a threat talent in case you're wondering) then I would say you had a point.

As edgewalker said, wotn is currently somewhat reliable, and it's going to be the epitome of reliable post-patch. It isn't about giving healers a dramatically diffirent way to heal you through the whole encounter. It's about surviving a periodical tank-smashing burst and still having enough health left to get a fast heal and be able to survive the next normal hit that lands. Blood is outstanding in this regard. Frost and unholy CAN, but they are not as reliable and have a plethora of drawbacks that blood does not share. For frost it is talent bloat, emphasis on avoidance, and a cd that only affects physical damage. For unholy it is also bloat, but includes no real passive buffs (non-magical), and reliance on avoidance to keep bone-shield competetive.

I fully advocate the usage and testing of a variety of specs, but i'm still confident when i say blood is and will continue to be the tanking tree of choice.

Satorri
03-01-2010, 06:58 AM
WotN is survival when you need it most.

*If* your health dips that low, WotN is a very nice margin to keep you from hitting that dead-point.

Another way to look at it is that there are 3 general scenarios:
1.) You are taking regular but not light switch (health full, health empty, health full) hits.
2.) You are taking a hard beating with regular enough large hits that your health is flapping (Festergut <3).
3.) You are getting crushed and the hit will kill you.

In situation 1, if your health drops it is not often a hit-hit-dead scenario, so the save will not be game-saving but it may just make you easier to survive in that moment for whatever the healers' interruption or distraction was.

In situation 2, when it procs you should be thrilled, and in theory this is where it will proc most and we'll see the highest value of the talent. Can you do without? Of course, everyone else does, but this may make you that much less of a concern/stress for your group.

In situation 3, it is unlikely that 15% damage reduction will save you, but then often enough nothing will. *If* that 15% margin is enough for you to squeak through, and it does happen once in a while, you will be elated you have that protection.

I've been considering the ramifications of taking it all along, and to me the significance is simple. It is a decision, as always, in the math of threat vs survival. If you have all the threat you need, there's not much reason not to take it, it will extend your health nicely when it matters and when it doesn't you're none the worse for wear.

Blood tanks rely on? Health, self-healing, and being very healable, right? We get minimal other talents for mitigation/avoidance (Str => Parry but that's a pretty small one for the % Strength gains translation).. We rely on having a huge health pool to give the healers time. We smooth out the apparent damage taken by healing ourselves steadily, and we use Vamp Blood to improve the value of every heal so we can overpower incoming damage.

This is now a reliable mitigation talent that covers us for this vulnerability in the one scenario where we are vulnerable: low health without our only serious and regular mitigation buff (IBF).

Hard to question its value, unless you are more concerned with threat than survival, which seems rare enough in fixed raid teams.

Edgewalker
03-01-2010, 10:13 AM
Frost will be the singular best threat spec after the patch in my book (and really what you should spec if you have threat problems in mind). 45% haste vs 25% haste now, an additional 4% strength buff, 10% additional strength on UA, a much higher % damage increase on Dual Wield Specialization, and Imp. WF over 10% AP, which is a harder to get raid buff due to the class spread.
Really can't wait to use it on the easier hitting fights, should be quite fun.

TLDR Version - If you are concerned about threat next patch, why be Blood?

Proletaria
03-01-2010, 11:00 AM
TLDR Version - If you are concerned about threat next patch, why be Blood?

Who is concerned about threat with Icy touch working the way it currently is on the PTR? I'm confused.

The way it looks right now, blood out-survives every spec and get's more than enough of a threat boost from the IT change(unless you're using glyph of disease).

Just remember, once your threat is higher than anyone else's in the raid, every TPS beyond that point is worth nothing.

Edgewalker
03-01-2010, 11:25 AM
Just remember, once your threat is higher than anyone else's in the raid, every TPS beyond that point is worth nothing.

I have no idea who or why anyone would be concerned about threat, but if they are to the point they are going to drop WoTN, why go blood?
Frost should be a higher DPS spec as well, with a raid buff that isn't as easily achieved as 10% AP.

Proletaria
03-01-2010, 08:09 PM
I have no idea who or why anyone would be concerned about threat, but if they are to the point they are going to drop WoTN, why go blood?
Frost should be a higher DPS spec as well, with a raid buff that isn't as easily achieved as 10% AP.

That's a good point, but why on earth would you drop wotn? I agree frost dps is in for a boost, and it stands to reason frost tps will go sky high, but like I said, that much threat is just unnecessary.

Edit: I'm guessing you were responding to Satorri, oops.

Edgewalker
03-01-2010, 08:45 PM
That's a good point, but why on earth would you drop wotn? I agree frost dps is in for a boost, and it stands to reason frost tps will go sky high, but like I said, that much threat is just unnecessary.

Edit: I'm guessing you were responding to Satorri, oops.

Unless you need Chillblains or Windfury, I have no idea why anyone would be anything other than Blood for anything, ever. I've had that opinion for about.... 8 months now ^^

Swam
03-01-2010, 10:04 PM
Cause frost and unholy still work and are still fun. I dont like blood tanking not cause it isnt a great spec, but because I enjoy frost a lot more.

KnThrak
03-02-2010, 12:26 AM
Unholy works where it works too. Few fights encourage clever use of AMZ but the skill can be amazing when you fight the right thing for it.
Two exampled I can recall from recent times were blocking Pungent Blight at Festergut and noticing while running past someone that someone didn't notice Mallable Goo, and absorbing the impact with AMZ.

In a way, the whole concept of having an oh-shit timer which does not only affect you yourself is very interesting. It's a bit sad there's comparatively few uses for it but when there is, I can understand why it has a 2 minute and not a 1 minute cooldown.

Sterbefall
03-02-2010, 07:20 AM
Satorri, I really don't get why you're arguing against WotN at all, even in the vein of "does it fit with the rest of the spec" which is more RPish than practical. Blood has fantastic EH and the new WotN makes it even better.

For the moment, let's ignore the damage reduction bonus of crossing the boundary with big hits. For the bottom 35% of your health, each hit is reduced by 15%. Let's use damage x and health y. The damage taken to kill you with 35% health is: 0.35 * y = x * 0.85. Solve for x. 0.411764706 y = x. Now that we have what you can absorb in raw unmitigated damage, let's add in the original. 1.06176471. You've just gained over 6% EH in the worst case scenario. It gets better when you bounce over the boundary.

I just cannot for the life of me see a good reason to not take it. It's better than VotTW (unless I've miscalculated). And to end an argument before it starts, 3% stamina is meaningless as well if your healers are keeping you topped off and you're not taking dangerously large hits.

Denekawa
03-02-2010, 07:53 AM
I think the general idea here is to make us all decide which spec to go with as opposed to going with the defacto raid spec. As tantilizing as HB is, I just can't justify it as a main raiding spec. I'd rather let the Paladin be the trash whore than sacrifice EH on the boss fights where it really matters. TPS isn't as much an issue on boss fights as it is on trash. Frost has the upper hand for sure on trash, but on boss fights? It's a toss up with a bit of leverage on the side of Blood. Stamina still is the king of tanking and as much as we would like to think our other talents stack up to it, it doesnt pan out that way. The tank with the most HPs tends to live a bit longer, which in a lot of fights can mean, success or failure.

I suppose if my guild were further progressed, I would change my thoughts on that. But right now, every little thing to help the healers keep me up is about the number one priority on the list of things to do. The DPS surely would be a threat at some point, but until they start to learn to live, their potential to out threat me is lost in a face plant.

KnThrak
03-02-2010, 09:24 AM
For the moment, let's ignore the damage reduction bonus of crossing the boundary with big hits. For the bottom 35% of your health, each hit is reduced by 15%. Let's use damage x and health y. The damage taken to kill you with 35% health is: 0.35 * y = x * 0.85. Solve for x. 0.411764706 y = x. Now that we have what you can absorb in raw unmitigated damage, let's add in the original. 1.06176471. You've just gained over 6% EH in the worst case scenario. It gets better when you bounce over the boundary.

And the Blizzard argument is that the current one (with the cooldown) is virtually the exact same strength, all they're eliminating are some edge-cases with perpetual room-wide AE (Festergut, Lana'thel, Sindragosa come to mind).
And right now WotN is accepted as a decent talent, but no one is raising an alarm flag about it, in fact there's just as many DKs switching to Frost or even Unholy on ED than those going Blood. Now if you could statistically prove that for current content the new WotN is substantially superior to the current one not only on paper but in an actual, wipe-affecting fashion...

Havenwood
03-02-2010, 09:24 AM
Any other Blood tanks considering dropping the currently almost requisite for single target threat glyphs (RS & DS) assuming the IT PTR changes go live? With a comforatable threat cushion from IT we have some fun options for glyphs opened up.

Sterbefall
03-02-2010, 09:37 AM
I think Blizzard looked at one edge case (Patchwerk hitting for 115% of the tank's health) to decide the non cooldown version was dangerous. The removal of the cooldown and the minimum damage makes it significantly strong, making blood tanks much easier to heal on hard hitting bosses (especially fast hitting ones now).

I'm not sure what statistical proof you need above and beyond what I already wrote. The 15 second cooldown is what really weakens the current version, making it effective only against infrequent nuke attacks (and not really increasing EH as the new version does).

Proletaria
03-02-2010, 09:41 AM
Any other Blood tanks considering dropping the currently almost requisite for single target threat glyphs (RS & DS) assuming the IT PTR changes go live? With a comforatable threat cushion from IT we have some fun options for glyphs opened up.

Do you feel a compelling reason to drop the death-strike glyph? I suppose you could swap out RS, but why DS?

Edgewalker
03-02-2010, 11:15 AM
And the Blizzard argument is that the current one (with the cooldown) is virtually the exact same strength, all they're eliminating are some edge-cases with perpetual room-wide AE (Festergut, Lana'thel, Sindragosa come to mind).
And right now WotN is accepted as a decent talent, but no one is raising an alarm flag about it, in fact there's just as many DKs switching to Frost or even Unholy on ED than those going Blood. Now if you could statistically prove that for current content the new WotN is substantially superior to the current one not only on paper but in an actual, wipe-affecting fashion...

There most certainly are not any raid tanks, anywhere, switching to Unholy. There are maybe a tiny, tiny, tiny amount that raid as frost.

Edgewalker
03-02-2010, 11:16 AM
Do you feel a compelling reason to drop the death-strike glyph? I suppose you could swap out RS, but why DS?

I have to agree with you here... there simply aren't any great glyphs to switch too either.

Molecule
03-02-2010, 11:42 AM
Any other Blood tanks considering dropping the currently almost requisite for single target threat glyphs (RS & DS) assuming the IT PTR changes go live? With a comforatable threat cushion from IT we have some fun options for glyphs opened up.

Truth be told, Glyph of Rune Strike is already pretty unnecessary for threat. It's almost completely useless for AoE threat and single target threat is absolutely fine without it. At various points I've run Glyph of Death and Decay and Glyph of Disease and I have never missed Glyph of Rune Strike.

By the way, frost tanks are useful in 10 mans with two DK tanks. Someone's gotta tank all the trash and it goes a lot faster if that person isn't Blood. :P

Lilithium
03-02-2010, 01:10 PM
Heck, I tank frost DW, and have for a good while now.

Works for me.

Nephelai
03-02-2010, 02:54 PM
Actually, something just occured to me that I don't believe I have seen any of the blood tanks mention. With the changes to Icy Touch, wouldn't it make sense for yall to drop epidemic (and even Death Rune Mastery) and use a short disease rotation. I am thinking something like IT,PS,HS,HS,DS, (dump).

Edit: removed edit, had a talent build in mind but my quick thought involved bad talent math

Nephelai
03-02-2010, 03:35 PM
The future of Death Knight Tanking?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSeY2VxsOUQTba,9dU3eO,11599

AKA.. the Big Icy Touch and Im one hell of a buff bot build.

I just looked at the above build again, and trading icy reach for endless winter would probably be a good call.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSeY9Y1VeVeB5c,9dU3eO,11599

Edgewalker
03-02-2010, 04:29 PM
No. Threat is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT an issue beyond the first 3-4 seconds of the fight. All of these weird builds may provide marginal TPS increases, but they will drastically lower DPS, they will remove DS self-heals from the rotation, and they will force you to go specs that remove a lot of worthwhile talents. There is just absolutely no reason to ever spec for Icy Touch, or ever change your playstyle from exactly how it is right now unless you are having TPS issues beyond the opener/fresh mobs.


"By the way, frost tanks are useful in 10 mans with two DK tanks. Someone's gotta tank all the trash and it goes a lot faster if that person isn't Blood. :P"

I hate the person that invented the "Frost is the AOE" tank mantra. Blood AoE tanking is barely under Frost, and it's just as good if not better than Unholy. If your blood tank was having threat issues with multiple mobs he was simply doing it wrong.

Nephelai
03-02-2010, 04:39 PM
Actually, assuming that silly spec I posted even would work right, you would be sacrificing one percent of avoidance (and possible RS procs since you are converting three percent of avoidance from dodge to miss). With an IT,PS,BS,BS,DS rotation you would still be getting an average of one DS every ten seconds, but now they would be spaced better then IT,PS,HS,HS,DS,dump,DS,HS,HS,HS,HS,dump, and assuming your raid dosen't have an enhance shaman, Icy Talons will increase raid dps more then the drop in raid dps caused by the novelty rotation.

Lilithium
03-02-2010, 04:46 PM
I totally agree. Having done blood, their ability to spam BB makes them phenomenal aoe tanks. As Satorri likes to point out, at a certain level of play, it does boil down to preference. While a blood tank has obvious benefits for certain hardmode encounters, frost is no slouch. Even Unholy can do the job, but until they make certain changes to bone shield (or if they even bother) it's noticeably less solid than the other two trees.

On the topic of icy touch changes, I think anything that's needed to be said about it, has been said. Specs specific to IT nerf themselves in different ways. It's not unlike the Unreleting Assault build for Warriors. It's an interesting concept, but one that hardly warrants use in raids.

Leucifer
03-02-2010, 05:25 PM
All three can perform.

Question is, which one is most intuitive or the build that you're the best with?

Agree. Once you get a full stack of death runes... spamming BB drives threat and AoE damage through the roof. Downside is: it takes some time to get those death runes. Frost has AoE more readily at disposal with Howling Blast. You can argue that and say DnD, but Howling blast has some upsides that DnD doesn't. As for Unholy..... once Unholy gets rolling... they can maintain high threat nicely, but they take some buildup.

Thing is, do you sacrifice real raid utility chasing after that one trick? Remember, you're building a tank. Your job is to hold aggro and survive the consequences of it. Any bonuses you can provide are awesome. Dealing out damage just happens to be something the DK tank excels at compared to its counterparts (imo). But if you do nothing else beyond keeping all your targets fixed on you and not beating on teammates, you're winning. I don't care how ugly you do it, just so long as you're effective.

So, ask yourself, does this build allow you to do your two main "jobs"?
1) Gain/hold aggro?
2) Survive the results of that aggro?

Edit: Going to counter this right now.
1) Cooldown on Howling Blast is less than DnD
2) Howling Blast can be a freebie with procs
3) DnD uses 3 runes, Howling Blast uses 2 or none, depending
4) Area of affect and range for Howling Blast is greater
5) Howling Blast can infect targets with Frost Fever, enabling a single disease rotation on all targets in one attack.

Those are the main ones I see.

Nephelai
03-02-2010, 05:31 PM
Took another look at it and went ahead and dropped the point in sudden doom for mark of blood. Made a little more sense.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSeY9Y1VevF2PX,9dU3eO,11599

Leucifer
03-02-2010, 05:39 PM
By the way, a deathknight is effectively a "warrior class"...... why the hell can't we use shields?
Did we all sleep through that lesson?

They're supposed to be the "hero" class. Would it kill to give us shields? Yeah.... I know. Frost presence plus that would equal imbalance.

On a final note: how the heck do they really plan to make worgen DK's? I can't imagine Blizz being cool with people skipping their new starting zone either with DK's or with paid character conversions. Just a random thought

Nephelai
03-02-2010, 05:43 PM
By the way, a deathknight is effectively a "warrior class"...... why the hell can't we use shields?
Did we all sleep through that lesson?

They're supposed to be the "hero" class. Would it kill to give us shields? Yeah.... I know. Frost presence plus that would equal imbalance.

On a final note: how the heck do they really plan to make worgen DK's? I can't imagine Blizz being cool with people skipping their new starting zone either with DK's or with paid character conversions. Just a random thought

They have already said that they will freeze character conversion to allow time for worgen server firsts. I would imagine they will do the same for DK race choices. Also if you look closely at the cataclysm parry design, I think it will pretty much offset our lack of shields in the expansion, and under current mechanics the lack of a shield is only noticable under certain circumstances (lots of small hits from aoe mobs, annub adds)

Proletaria
03-02-2010, 07:18 PM
Truth be told, Glyph of Rune Strike is already pretty unnecessary for threat. It's almost completely useless for AoE threat and single target threat is absolutely fine without it. At various points I've run Glyph of Death and Decay and Glyph of Disease and I have never missed Glyph of Rune Strike.

By the way, frost tanks are useful in 10 mans with two DK tanks. Someone's gotta tank all the trash and it goes a lot faster if that person isn't Blood. :P


Two dk tanks in a 10man raid? EWWW

Leucifer
03-02-2010, 08:04 PM
They have already said that they will freeze character conversion to allow time for worgen server firsts. I would imagine they will do the same for DK race choices. Also if you look closely at the cataclysm parry design, I think it will pretty much offset our lack of shields in the expansion, and under current mechanics the lack of a shield is only noticable under certain circumstances (lots of small hits from aoe mobs, annub adds)

Cool. That would make sense. Glad to hear that.

The comment regarding shields was more of the logical nature. In a way..... a DK is more like a samurai than a knight. Samurai didn't use shields in their fighting techniques. In that light, heh, cool.
The balance between parry and block in Cataclysm I think will help now that you point it out and I look again. Under current circumstances, frost presence makes up for the armor value loss, but it doesn't make up for the "block" mechanic. Plus side.... all we have to focus on is driving up parry and dodge. Downside.... currently parry has some downside with the flurry afterwards. Good point though, and in that light, I like the change.

Molecule
03-02-2010, 08:28 PM
I hate the person that invented the "Frost is the AOE" tank mantra. Blood AoE tanking is barely under Frost, and it's just as good if not better than Unholy. If your blood tank was having threat issues with multiple mobs he was simply doing it wrong.

I'm not sure how to interpret this. Are you suggesting that blood has comparable snap AoE to frost? Sustained threat doesn't matter very much since AoE trash doesn't really last long. If you think that blood has anywhere near the snap AoE threat that frost does, I'm not sure what to tell you. I've played both specs and seen other people play both specs, and that's not even remotely true.

Molecule
03-02-2010, 08:32 PM
Two dk tanks in a 10man raid? EWWW

We've never had any problems with it.

Edgewalker
03-02-2010, 09:37 PM
I'm not sure how to interpret this. Are you suggesting that blood has comparable snap AoE to frost? Sustained threat doesn't matter very much since AoE trash doesn't really last long. If you think that blood has anywhere near the snap AoE threat that frost does, I'm not sure what to tell you. I've played both specs and seen other people play both specs, and that's not even remotely true.

I'm suggesting that the only threat that matters is the threat that holds mobs over DPS, and Blood does that without much effort at all. Sustained threat DOES matter in AoE packs by the way, unless you are talking about heroics, which can be tanked by virtually any class and aren't really a valid talking point for threat or specs.

Molecule
03-02-2010, 09:47 PM
Blood sets up its threat in about 6 seconds. Frost does it in 1.5. That's a pretty significant difference when you're killing trash packs within 15-20 seconds of the dps starting.

That's not the only thing Frost is better at in ICC though. Don't get me wrong, overall Blood is a stronger tank spec right now, but the versatility from having two differently specced DKs is worthwhile if they're your only two tanks.

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 02:32 AM
All specs will get more than the necessary amount of snap threat required to tank in 1 Icy touch post-patch. After that, your regular rotation will more than suffice (as it already does). This is single target.

Multi-target threat is still fine with any spec, but i don't see a lot of reason to argue over it given we're the flat-out worst aoe tanks (in terms of damage taken) in the game due to the way block currently works and the fact we lack it in any form.

As Edge said, threat is the last, least, and most insignificant issue our class will be dealing with post-patch regardless of spec. We'll be a lot more concerned with our still-lacking raid utility in the face of druids (who are a better choice for our tanking role in every way), warriors (who lack our EH but have encounters basically designed around their utilities), and paladins (who split the diffirence of EH, massive utility, and aoe tanking) who are still going to be better choices as raid tanks.

Cheers and let us hope cataclysm has better baindaids.

Acidbaron
03-03-2010, 05:17 AM
Death Grip (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/49576/) now has a 8 yards minimum range.

From latest ptr, Can't understand the reason behind it other then reducing the usefulnes of it.

Stinks like a PvP change without being completely thought thru on the PvE side.

Satorri
03-03-2010, 07:04 AM
I don't care for it, but I can imagine why it would be put in. It is likely a PvP change for the sake of making sure we have one less interrupt while being in melee range to smash, but with the PvE upshot that we have to be a little more tricky to use it as a taunt on a boss (take a step away and Death Grip, not that big a deal).

On consideration, I don't think it will be a terribly noticeable change once you adapt to the rare situation that you use Death Grip in melee range (5-8 yrds with latency wiggle).

Satorri
03-03-2010, 07:14 AM
Took another look at it and went ahead and dropped the point in sudden doom for mark of blood. Made a little more sense.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSeY9Y1VevF2PX,9dU3eO,11599

It is an interesting spec, but I expect you will find it rather weak on threat. Maybe that doesn't concern you, but it seems risky. No HS, no OB (Imp DS is nice but its threat is conditional to your need for health), moderate BS, no FS for RP dumping (relying on DC which is weaker, but 3/3 in SoB for more RP?). I assume you're hanging your hat on IT primarily for easing threat, but you also don't have DRM or BotN to let you use more than 2 per rune set which would also leave you unable to DS and has you filling with PS which will also be pretty light.

On the survival side you hit a lot of the tastiest buffs, with the delectable Imp DS heals, Vamp Blood, WotN, the nice support heals from Imp Rune Tap and Mark of Blood, while also grabbing Frigid Dreadplate.

We've seen builds like this before, and they tend to be ditched past heroics for more pure builds. Do you think the IT change will support it?

Have you tried it out, or is this still just an intellectual exploration?

Bosk
03-03-2010, 07:22 AM
And gets 100% ignored by healers when judging in their inner mind how to heal you. Contrary to 3% more stamina or 2% less damage taken which are constant effects over your entire healthpool. Yes, WotN will in some situations save your life. If we trust Blizzard not in many, this'd be consistent with how AD works actually (ignoring it's 1Up). But it's not reliable in the sense that healers can depend on it to reduce the healing you need - just as they can't rely on 3% Avoidance or Blood's selfhealing.

That will be more true the better the healers in your raid are. In my BFF guild we do not get such perfect performances, and I can see this version of WotN being stronger the worse your healers are.

Maybe not an important viewpoint to those of you in harder guilds than me, but I'd nonetheless expect forums to still erupt in tears about how OP it is (as they did with AD).

Satorri
03-03-2010, 07:30 AM
but I'd nonetheless expect forums to still erupt in tears about how OP it is (as they did with AD).
Already happening. =)

But then it happens for lesser things.

Edgewalker
03-03-2010, 11:51 AM
That will be more true the better the healers in your raid are. In my BFF guild we do not get such perfect performances, and I can see this version of WotN being stronger the worse your healers are.

Maybe not an important viewpoint to those of you in harder guilds than me, but I'd nonetheless expect forums to still erupt in tears about how OP it is (as they did with AD).

You have to realize that all the posters in this thread that are citing perfect healer performance and never dipping below the 35% threshold are completely full of $#@$, or they don't pay attention to their health bars.

Molecule
03-03-2010, 12:12 PM
You have to realize that all the posters in this thread that are citing perfect healer performance and never dipping below the 35% threshold are completely full of $#@$, or they don't pay attention to their health bars.

Not only this, but even if you have perfect healer performance, heals don't come reactively in raids. If you are a tank, you are being constantly spammed by at least one person. Mana is no issue in current content, so "perfect play" as a tank healer doesn't mean analyzing your tank's health bar, it means pushing out a Holy Light every 1.5 seconds. The bottom line here is that the new WotN will, at least for level 80 content, never be worse than a 6.2% stamina buff, and realistically will be quite a bit better because it reduces some damage above the 35% threshold.

To look at it another way, if you never drop below 35% health, you get absolutely zero benefit from an arbitrarily high buff to your stamina. You could get a stamina buff of 50% and it would be completely gratuitous if you're never dropping below 35% (except insomuch as it improves your death strikes and rune taps). I doubt that anyone here would turn down a 50% stamina buff though. So what does that say about the reality of the way WotN is going to work for level 80 content?

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 12:15 PM
I have ~63k raid buffed hp in a raw EH set.

In order for wotn to proc, I must take a hit large enough to put me at or below 22050hp. That means I have to take a hit for 40950 damage from full hp.

I'm not full of -explative deleted- when I tell you, Edge, that doesn't happen much between burst mechanics.

Let's say i'm taking 12k hits from some boss. I need to take a little over three consecutive hits without a heal for the effect to proc. Let's say i'm taking 20k hits (on the high end of what you can expect a regular attack to be in ICC, barring encounter mechanics like festergut's), then i still need MORE THAN TWO consecutive hits -with no healing at all- before it procs.

It's being changed so that it will function as intended: to actually help blood tanks take a sizeable hit with VB up and live long enough that the bonus healing effect isn't wasted. You are not going to constantly hover in the wotn range with your healers cleverly allowing your hp to dip near zero just to gain efficient damage intake to hps ratio. Tank healers (like all healers) still have nearly infinite mana pools and will bomb heal you at the same rate they always have. WotN is going to prop you up when you don't have IBF for a burst mechanic because as i've repeated over and over again: VB IS NOT A GOOD ANTI-BURST DAMAGE COOLDOWN! All the bonus healing in the world is not going to make a bit of diffirence when you gain a pitiful sum of hp compared to last stand and survival instincts or the cheat-death mechanic of AD.

While we're comparing wotn to AD you might as well look at it this way: AD is wotn and vb rolled into one. It's a secondary cd with baked-in mitigation for 3 talent points. Wotn is the baked-in mitigation (3 talent points) for a 1 talent point secondary cd which otherwise looks weak in comparison to every other cd in the game for use as a cooldown. Sure, I can just pop it whenever it comes up, use it as bonus healing and nothing more, but encounters are designed with regular burst damage and the expectation that we can and will use our primary and secondary cooldowns in tandem to stop it from killing us. If I haven't gotten the point across, i'll repeat it one more time: vb fails at that role, wotn props it up, and wotn with an icd consistantly failed at that role. That is why it is being buffed.

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 12:18 PM
To look at it another way, if you never drop below 35% health, you get absolutely zero benefit from an arbitrarily high buff to your stamina. You could get a stamina buff of 50% and it would be completely gratuitous if you're never dropping below 35% (except insomuch as it improves your death strikes and rune taps). I doubt that anyone here would turn down a 50% stamina buff though. So what does that say about the reality of the way WotN is going to work for level 80 content?

Once again, burst mechanics are why we stack stam. Regular boss damage between these events is not meaningful and it will not regularly proc wotn unless your healers are allowing you to dip dangerously low (in which case, the upcoming burst may kill you despite wotn).

If arthas didn't use soul-reaper, I could easily tank him in a dps spec with enough tanking gear on to defense cap. He hit's like a kitten so long as the plague is well managed in p1.

Molecule
03-03-2010, 12:25 PM
Once again, burst mechanics are why we stack stam. Regular boss damage between these events is not meaningful and it will not regularly proc wotn unless your healers are allowing you to dip dangerously low (in which case, the upcoming burst may kill you despite wotn).

If arthas didn't use soul-reaper, I could easily tank him in a dps spec with enough tanking gear on to defense cap. He hit's like a kitten so long as the plague is well managed in p1.

Um, I think we agree with each other actually.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the new WotN is going to be overpowered. It's definitely by far the best 3 talent points you can take as a death knight in terms of boosting your mitigation and overall effective health, but overbudgeted isn't the same thing as overpowered. My post was a reductio ad absurdum response to the people that are saying WotN isn't useful because you rarely drop below 35%; the point was that if you don't feel like you need WotN because you don't drop low enough, then you don't need any equivalent survival increase, which is clearly wrong.

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Sorry if i mis-interpreted, but i feel like wotn is being grossly over-stated and under-stated at the same time here. I'm just trying to give a realistic picture of what the talent is meant to do and how it's going to funciton.

Edgewalker
03-03-2010, 12:49 PM
It changes in heroics I suppose. LDW, DBS, Festergut, Sindragosa, Valithria, will constantly push you below the barrier.
The rest have the potential, but don't do it regularly.

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 01:40 PM
I've tanked those on heroic and I don't see being "constantly" pushed below 35% as a reality. I agree, festergut will be about as good as it gets for wotn, but otherwise i'm unconvinced based on my own experience.

Nephelai
03-03-2010, 02:29 PM
It is an interesting spec, but I expect you will find it rather weak on threat. Maybe that doesn't concern you, but it seems risky. No HS, no OB (Imp DS is nice but its threat is conditional to your need for health), moderate BS, no FS for RP dumping (relying on DC which is weaker, but 3/3 in SoB for more RP?). I assume you're hanging your hat on IT primarily for easing threat, but you also don't have DRM or BotN to let you use more than 2 per rune set which would also leave you unable to DS and has you filling with PS which will also be pretty light.

On the survival side you hit a lot of the tastiest buffs, with the delectable Imp DS heals, Vamp Blood, WotN, the nice support heals from Imp Rune Tap and Mark of Blood, while also grabbing Frigid Dreadplate.

We've seen builds like this before, and they tend to be ditched past heroics for more pure builds. Do you think the IT change will support it?

Have you tried it out, or is this still just an intellectual exploration?

Purely intellecutal would be correct. For threat, as compared to a standard blood build, it would rely on glacier rot and Black Ice, buffing the threat multiplied damage of an icy touch, that is now coming out every 10 seconds (instead of every 20 as it does in an epidemic build). Thats really where the build started. I got to thinking about how the icy touch threat multiplier would reward tanks for dropping epidemic, and that lead me to see what could be done with icy touch buffs in an epidemicless spec. I made sure to go into both raid buffs, because the dps loss of a build built around a high threat icy touch has bothered me since it was announced, so adding the melee haste buff eased my conscience a bit.

The biggest drawback I can see with that build is that the lack of death runes and the short rotation kills BB spam in aoe situations (of course black ice willl improve the aoe threat generation from diseases). I think an aoe rotation with that build would likely be something like DnD, IT, PS, Pest, (dump) DS, BB, IT, PS, Pest (dump) DS, BB, IT, PS, Pest (dump) DnD... etc

Not sure that would cut it, even with the increased frost/shadow damage.

I still would like to run it on the ptr on single target tests to see if relying on the icy touch gimick would work, but haven't found the time (afterall the idea hit me on a tuesday, and we all know what tuesdays are for).

Edit: I tossed SoB in there to try to minimize the situations where an RNG of RS procs leave you too starved to hit IBF or AMS. Of course that build makes the interrupts cheap, so its less of a problem for those.

Edgewalker
03-03-2010, 03:25 PM
I've tanked those on heroic and I don't see being "constantly" pushed below 35% as a reality. I agree, festergut will be about as good as it gets for wotn, but otherwise i'm unconvinced based on my own experience.

I doubt you've tanked DBS or LDW on 25 man heroic if you don't see the 35% threshhold...
the 10 man versions are completely different.
Sindragosa also hits considerably harder than Festergut with just her base attack.
I don't mean this post to at all sound elitist, it's just how it is.

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 03:41 PM
I doubt you've tanked DBS or LDW on 25 man heroic if you don't see the 35% threshhold...
the 10 man versions are completely different.
Sindragosa also hits considerably harder than Festergut with just her base attack.
I don't mean this post to at all sound elitist, it's just how it is.

My anecdote could beat your anecdote at checkers.

Nephelai
03-03-2010, 05:11 PM
Good news, a blue post has confirmed the DG change is an unintended bug and will not go live.

Edgewalker
03-03-2010, 05:35 PM
Anecdotal evidence is still evidence?

Proletaria
03-03-2010, 11:40 PM
Anecdotal evidence is still evidence?

How about a nice game of peggle?

And while we're on the topic: what the hell is with the projecting skill? The ball never goes where it is supposed to. I much prefer the alien aoe zapper method.

Nephelai
03-04-2010, 12:23 AM
Been trying to test that novelty build on the PTR, but it appears that rune strike is bugged. Not proccing at all, and making any good testing hard.

Edit: The spec is doing just over 1600 single target dps on level 80 world elites with no RS procs (since they seem to be broken). Threat without RS in a mix of ICC 10/25 gear (threat stats maxed, just over 5700gs) is in the 5K to 6K range self buffed, solo testing.

Edit: been running it in randoms now, its actually holding aggro without RS against the standard 5380 GS's that abound in that realm. AOE pulls are even smoother then expected, though not as easy as with HB.

Edgewalker
03-04-2010, 01:58 AM
How about a nice game of peggle?

And while we're on the topic: what the hell is with the projecting skill? The ball never goes where it is supposed to. I much prefer the alien aoe zapper method.

Zapper method is way better, borderline overpowered.

Proletaria
03-04-2010, 03:33 AM
Zapper method is way better, borderline overpowered.

Check and mate sir.

Edit: king me.

Proletaria
03-04-2010, 03:34 AM
Been trying to test that novelty build on the PTR, but it appears that rune strike is bugged. Not proccing at all, and making any good testing hard.

Edit: The spec is doing just over 1600 single target dps on level 80 world elites with no RS procs (since they seem to be broken). Threat without RS in a mix of ICC 10/25 gear (threat stats maxed, just over 5700gs) is in the 5K to 6K range self buffed, solo testing.

Edit: been running it in randoms now, its actually holding aggro without RS against the standard 5380 GS's that abound in that realm. AOE pulls are even smoother then expected, though not as easy as with HB.


Link to the novelty build in question?

Bosk
03-04-2010, 04:27 AM
Sorry if i mis-interpreted, but i feel like wotn is being grossly over-stated and under-stated at the same time here. I'm just trying to give a realistic picture of what the talent is meant to do and how it's going to funciton.

The point I was making is that some talents will do exactly that; depending on the raid you have. It looks like the people saying it is OP will really be overstating it in live play for good guilds, but they could well be quite correct for the less good guild. My pally tanking partner got ressed by AD on almost every time we tried Festergut last night. In situations like that (for people like me) it will likely be incredible. I fully appreciate that if you are 'doing it right' you ought not to utilise the talent frequently.

How can I get worldoflogs to show how long I spent on low health in a fight?

Satorri
03-04-2010, 06:58 AM
I don't know that you can Bosk, I don't think the combat log stores health data, so World of Logs wouldn't know what your total health is unless it collected overheal and overkill data, which would normally be unnecessary (and scary as a tank since you'd have to be killed a few times).

Proletaria
03-04-2010, 12:43 PM
The point I was making is that some talents will do exactly that; depending on the raid you have. It looks like the people saying it is OP will really be overstating it in live play for good guilds, but they could well be quite correct for the less good guild. My pally tanking partner got ressed by AD on almost every time we tried Festergut last night. In situations like that (for people like me) it will likely be incredible. I fully appreciate that if you are 'doing it right' you ought not to utilise the talent frequently.

How can I get worldoflogs to show how long I spent on low health in a fight?

I'll put it to you like this.

The "perfect health" arguments (whereby healers are either sub-par or deliberately allowing you to dip into wotn every swing) have a problem: If you're riding that low, anything more than an average hit is going to kill you. If you're topped off, then you stop getting the "free EH." I just think the premise is silly: you're talking about equally perftect healers to both abuse and get no use out of it. It's no stretch of the imagination to consider that reality will probably lie between the two. You will get wotn procs (it's there for a reason), but I highly, highly doubt you'll chain them back to back to back to back as though every encounter were hardmode lichking 25 and you were taking 51k hits.

Nephelai
03-04-2010, 01:30 PM
Link to the novelty build in question?

I had linked it a few posts earlier but here it is again:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSeY9Y1VevF2PX,9dU3eO,11599

Like I said, it is hard to test it perfectly with RS being apparently bugged on the PTR, but it is holding aggro in randoms without RS. I was just cycling through IT,PS,BS,BS,DS,DC on single target pulls. What I found myself doing on aoe pulls was more of a DnD,IT,PS,Pest, Tab IT,PS, BB, Tab IT, PS, BB, etc (inserting DC's after tab if still in blackout)... type of thing. It was a bit more work then the aoe pulls I do in frost, I did alot more proactive tabbing and checking Omen, but then paranoia about the builds aoe output probably fueled that as much as neccessity.

I was just mostly surprised that it was holding single target aggro with zero rune strikes. It's built to get alot of value out of that 7X threat multiplier on icy touch while providing both the blood and frost tree raid buffs, but with the addition of RS it could be crazy.

Edit: Oh, and a funny anecdote, if you try to find a new random player in the ptr they have this new thing where it teleports them strait to the party leader. There is an apparent oversight on this feature in Occ. We had two party members rage quit when they teleported into the middle of the instance with no drake in their bag, and ended up just doing the last boss with three drakes.

Proletaria
03-04-2010, 04:42 PM
I had linked it a few posts earlier but here it is again:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSeY9Y1VevF2PX,9dU3eO,11599

Like I said, it is hard to test it perfectly with RS being apparently bugged on the PTR, but it is holding aggro in randoms without RS. I was just cycling through IT,PS,BS,BS,DS,DC on single target pulls. What I found myself doing on aoe pulls was more of a DnD,IT,PS,Pest, Tab IT,PS, BB, Tab IT, PS, BB, etc (inserting DC's after tab if still in blackout)... type of thing. It was a bit more work then the aoe pulls I do in frost, I did alot more proactive tabbing and checking Omen, but then paranoia about the builds aoe output probably fueled that as much as neccessity.

I was just mostly surprised that it was holding single target aggro with zero rune strikes. It's built to get alot of value out of that 7X threat multiplier on icy touch while providing both the blood and frost tree raid buffs, but with the addition of RS it could be crazy.

Edit: Oh, and a funny anecdote, if you try to find a new random player in the ptr they have this new thing where it teleports them strait to the party leader. There is an apparent oversight on this feature in Occ. We had two party members rage quit when they teleported into the middle of the instance with no drake in their bag, and ended up just doing the last boss with three drakes.

Interesting spec. I'll have to give it a spin on the ptr myself.

Nephelai
03-04-2010, 05:01 PM
Interesting spec. I'll have to give it a spin on the ptr myself.

Tell me how it went, heh... and say hi to the 15 million druids.

GravityDK
03-07-2010, 04:22 AM
On the icy touch change.

Has anyone recently confirmed it is (still) giving a 7x threat multiplier?

That spec linked above is 'interesting' although without 5/5 anticipation for dodge, I wouldn't use it in ICC.

I suspect the most pragmatic way to use the new IT will be to spec traditionally, as you do today, but to use a different rotation in your first 20s. Something like: IT IT PS BS BS / IT IT IT IT.
After that, go into a normal blood or frost rotation so you deliver proper damage.

It's been said earlier, once your threat is substantially ahead of the dps, it is more useful for a raid tank to cause damage than hollow threat.

The exception here is new tanks to L80, who undergear the fellows in 5-mans, and those players might want to keep spamming IT through the whole dungeon (albeit if you're frost opening with glyphed HB is better for AOE).

Proletaria
03-07-2010, 07:05 AM
I can see the new Icy Touch (and afaik it's still gettin 7x threat on the test realm) returning us the option of occasionally using "sarth" specs: ie. the veteran of the third war + unholy or frost tree deep subspec, for some encounters. I'm pretty cautious about these specs in general applications though. Having no knowledge of the new encounters in the sanctum, I can't think of an ICC encounter off-hand that I wouldn't rather use a more traditional blood spec on. That being said, i'll probably have a re-spec'ing field day if any of these changes go live.

Nephelai
03-07-2010, 10:32 AM
That spec linked above is 'interesting' although without 5/5 anticipation for dodge, I wouldn't use it in ICC.


I admit I don't like the the way the tree "looks" without 5/5 anticipation, but it is important to remember that with the addition of frigid deadplate it only looses 1 percent avoidance compared to a traditional blood tanking spec. Granted the loss of 4 percent dodge will affect RS procs (though again, how badly this impacts actual RS procs is difficult to determine with RS being bugged on the PTR).

GravityDK
03-07-2010, 01:54 PM
but it is important to remember that with the addition of frigid deadplate it only looses 1 percent avoidance compared to a traditional blood tanking spec.

Very good point, I had overlooked that comparison, which in turn does make it ICC-viable. I think I'd take 1 from WotN and move it into HS for that build though (normally I would only use 3/3 wotn), for cleave for AOE and more single-target dps.

The loss of dodge is quite marginal to RS procs. I think it's something like 1% dodge ~= 0.25% TPS.

Proleteria, I agree, nothing currently requires an Unholy-Vot3W, and in fact because of the 5% (and more) stam aura in ICC, nothing in there will ever require it, but maybe the Ruby Sanctum could use a high-stam bone shield IT spam. It'd be kinda sad to have a fight again which requires one weird spec. :)

KnThrak
03-08-2010, 02:29 AM
Anecdotal evidence is still evidence?

The problem with that is two-fold.
First, there is anecdotal evidence for everything. There is anecdotal evidence for Mages out-tanking Prot-Paladins. Mathmatically extremely rare but consider the millions of millions of billions of hits delivered in millions of millions of fights... is it any wonder you'll hit a fight where a Mage dodges 10 hits in a row?
Case in point I need to find the screenie again but back in vanilla on our very first Chromaggus attempt a rogue managed to tank him for 35 seconds after everyone else died, avoiding every attack and resisting every spell. Yes, you can get that lucky.

The other problem is that Blizzard rarely cares about single cases. They see a weighted average of 2 000 000 datapoints, we see the one where we get kicked from the raid for being "rubbish". The perspective is way different, to us the one experience matters more than the 1 999 999 where there wasn't a problem, for Blizzard it matters than in 550 000 of those we were statistically 8% better than someone else, and they nerf us. We read that, think "but wtf, I already get powerstomped?!?!?!" and are pissed off. They ignore the single case where it causes an issue in favour for overall balance.

Edgewalker
03-08-2010, 11:03 AM
The problem with that is two-fold.
First, there is anecdotal evidence for everything. There is anecdotal evidence for Mages out-tanking Prot-Paladins. Mathmatically extremely rare but consider the millions of millions of billions of hits delivered in millions of millions of fights... is it any wonder you'll hit a fight where a Mage dodges 10 hits in a row?
Case in point I need to find the screenie again but back in vanilla on our very first Chromaggus attempt a rogue managed to tank him for 35 seconds after everyone else died, avoiding every attack and resisting every spell. Yes, you can get that lucky.

The other problem is that Blizzard rarely cares about single cases. They see a weighted average of 2 000 000 datapoints, we see the one where we get kicked from the raid for being "rubbish". The perspective is way different, to us the one experience matters more than the 1 999 999 where there wasn't a problem, for Blizzard it matters than in 550 000 of those we were statistically 8% better than someone else, and they nerf us. We read that, think "but wtf, I already get powerstomped?!?!?!" and are pissed off. They ignore the single case where it causes an issue in favour for overall balance.


There is a huge difference between the way they are presented. Also single cases make up the whole... I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't very confident that my experience would be the experience Blizzard saw the majority of the time in a hard mode situation.

Banterloft
03-08-2010, 02:28 PM
With the mulitiplier to IT could we move into a more survivable DPS build while still holding viable threat and survivability?

Bosk
03-09-2010, 01:37 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614404862-mastery-system-preview.html

With the first hints to the way Mastery would work for Frost I think it is looking incredibly likely that we will see tank/dps/pvp Masteries for blood/frost/unholy. There will be many unhappy guys out there but it really should be feasible to balance us through a whole expansion this time.

KnThrak
03-09-2010, 05:15 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614404862-mastery-system-preview.html

With the first hints to the way Mastery would work for Frost I think it is looking incredibly likely that we will see tank/dps/pvp Masteries for blood/frost/unholy. There will be many unhappy guys out there but it really should be feasible to balance us through a whole expansion this time.

This is not evident from his post. I saw the +damage too, but another one said there's an important announcement coming up about that, and I somewhat doubt it's that Blood will be the tank tree.

Why?

Feral Druids. They're in the same boat. And good luck to Blizzard if they'Re trying to make Feral a tank-only tree, not that it'd help them. :)

Tomehere321
03-09-2010, 06:50 AM
That spec linked above is 'interesting' although without 5/5 anticipation for dodge, I wouldn't use it in ICC

Not use the dodge talent?? In the words of kyles mom,

"What what whaa?!?"

I dont really think that u should spec out of that, surviability is a must for a tank... Threat means absolutly nothing if you are dead, and as little a difference as 5% dodge will make with the debuff in Icc, i would still never ever try tanking it in a spec without it.

Nephelai
03-09-2010, 01:34 PM
Not use the dodge talent?? In the words of kyles mom,

"What what whaa?!?"

I dont really think that u should spec out of that, surviability is a must for a tank... Threat means absolutly nothing if you are dead, and as little a difference as 5% dodge will make with the debuff in Icc, i would still never ever try tanking it in a spec without it.

Did you read down past the post you quoted? If not see frigid deadplate (at the expense of repeating myself 1/5 anticipation plus 3/3 frigid dead plate equals one percent less avoidance then the standard blood specs currently being used).

In other news, I tested the spec on patchwork last nite on the ptr. Rune Strike appears to be working now so I got a little group together and we did a five man patchwork kill (10m). Two tanks, Two Deeps, one heals. The spec held up very well in terms of threat against a 7k range dps. My TPS on a clone of my Bladefist DK was in the 10K neighborhood throughout the fight with no rogues, no hunters and only kings beyond the self buffs the build supplies.

The single target damage ratios on patch broke down as follows

RS= 39.8%
Melee= 15.7%
BS= 9.1%
DS= 8.3%
FF= 6.4%
BP= 6.0%
IT= 4.9%
PS= 4.2%

The mean RS hit 87.3 percent of the time with a mean damage of 3147. and crit 12.7 percent of the time with a mean damage of 6293. That should give you a good breakdown of the cruising threat the build has with an aprox. 5750 GS (high threat stats).

So threat wise even though it sacrifices alot of threat buffs in favor of raid buffs and survival, it seems to hold its own pretty well. That's not even IT spamming per se, just one IT per rune set.

Edit: oh and as to the comments about mastery, my read is that it is going to amplify the effects of the numerical values behind each talent you spec into by some talent adjusted coeffeicient. I do not think it is applying some all around "tree specific" buff. Edit Edit: grrr, maybe this is incorrect, but its how I woulda dun it...lol.

Dagmarr
03-19-2010, 06:30 PM
I was under the impression that the Icy Touch change was to smooth the initial pull for DKs, as IT is a spell so if it does miss, you can be up the creek on a dps check.

For those who glyph Howling Blast and forsake IT, well personally I think that is a sub par way of playing, as it makes Obliterate hit substantially weaker, plus you lose the extra damage from Blood Strike and Blood Plague.

Satorri
03-21-2010, 05:41 AM
Single disease methods became generally unpopular when ToT was added to the game. When Frost was mostly the domain of 2-handers you could lose very little by shifting your priority to HB over OB using OB like Devastate to SnB as the tool to spam when you can't use HB to try to get it off CD sooner. When ToT came out and dual wield was the threat power, OBs hit so hard with two diseases that it made the simpler single disease operation less appealing, but not non-existent. Never under-estimate what *easy* can do to improve your performance where it counts.

This IT change is important, and I think it will generally get everyone more interested in using IT even if they aren't spamming it. I suspect Glyph of HB will still hang around the way Glyph of Disease does, not because it is a big threat bump but because it makes life easier, it makes your job a bit easier. Min/maxers will not use it for the sake of getting the most measurable value out of their rig, but others will still use it for peace of mind.

I have come to love the play style of Blood. I don't ride the tides of popularity and absolutist performances, I don't particularly need to. I love to play with my off-spec to stay fluent in what is possible, but for me all this changes is that when I IT it will be delightfully more bursty, and I will likely abuse that when I want to spike some threat, particularly at range.

dotJEM
03-26-2010, 08:44 AM
Well now that the patch is here, it might be interesting to revive this threat a bit...
Sadly i can only conclude that the IT change is exactly as bad as i feared it would be.

Technically I have done some testing on XT, Patch ect... whatever I could think of was "Still-standing" boss fights... and then I went with something no DK tanks should ever do (In my opinion), i removed RS and OB from my rotation...
With what results?... that I'm running over 11k TPS stable as a 2H Frost specked tank... and that is a to warm welcome of an IT focused rotation... (That is pure BS, PS, IT and FS rotation)...

Now I deliberately removed OB/RS because I wanted to see just how bad things had gotten...
Granted the DPS would be better had i used those, but that was not what was under the test bench in this turnaround...

Well... While it is lovely that I can properly out threat anything moving now as a DK...
I think this is to much of an Open door for DK tanks with previously poor TPS performance...

what are others results if you forget about anything than trying to make sure you spam IT as often as possible??
(Not because it is necessarily the best way to go for a tank, but because the IT change is interesting to see how much we can bank out)

Edgewalker
03-26-2010, 05:55 PM
Technically I have done some testing on XT, Patch ect... whatever I could think of was "Still-standing" boss fights... and then I went with something no DK tanks should ever do (In my opinion), i removed RS and OB from my rotation...
With what results?... that I'm running over 11k TPS stable as a 2H Frost specked tank... and that is a to warm welcome of an IT focused rotation... (That is pure BS, PS, IT and FS rotation)...
)

Would love to see those parses so I could give you your actual TPS performance. It's not going to be 11K.

Satorri
03-27-2010, 05:48 AM
Does anyone have a good threat parser? 11k sounds pretty easy to hit from what I've seen using only IT and supporters as Frost.

I was cruising around 15-18k as Blood using DS to convert FU pairs to Death runes and spamming IT instead of HS. /cry That was still using RS, mind you.

Küren
03-27-2010, 12:50 PM
Omen should be 100% accurate because it uses the API but it includes any threat even if it isn't yours. I found TankadinTps at Maintankadin a while ago and it doesn't look to be too far off but you need to adjust the IT threat value in the code for it to be close to accurate. WMO has a threat report but I have no idea if it is accurate.

I find the IT change is nice but not overboard if used as intended. Of course you can spam IT to boost up threat but that doesn't seem necessary. I've also found that for once I have to watch what I do as the usual habit of throwing up diseases while the other tank is picking up a mob or boss is a bad idea now. I'm not sure that is any different than if your warrior tank decides to Shield Slam ASAP when you were throwing up diseases. It's just something we have to adjust to.

Nephelai
03-27-2010, 02:37 PM
Omen should be 100% accurate because it uses the API but it includes any threat even if it isn't yours. I found TankadinTps at Maintankadin a while ago and it doesn't look to be too far off but you need to adjust the IT threat value in the code for it to be close to accurate. WMO has a threat report but I have no idea if it is accurate.

I find the IT change is nice but not overboard if used as intended. Of course you can spam IT to boost up threat but that doesn't seem necessary. I've also found that for once I have to watch what I do as the usual habit of throwing up diseases while the other tank is picking up a mob or boss is a bad idea now. I'm not sure that is any different than if your warrior tank decides to Shield Slam ASAP when you were throwing up diseases. It's just something we have to adjust to.

I have certainly found this "need to adjust" thing this week. I have some habits like, reapplying diseases immediately after a taunt off instead of hammering an OB because it used to be a lower threat use of runes that wouldn't yank aggro back, that need to be changed now. Even on trash pulls I have found that running up and starting my rotation on a mob I intend to let the other tank hold will often yank aggro, and if the other tank is starting off on a boss pull, then allowing him to slap the boss around a few times before I open up is essential to a smooth start.

None of these adjustments are "hard" but there are certainly some old habits that must die hard.

Edgewalker
03-27-2010, 10:12 PM
Does anyone have a good threat parser? 11k sounds pretty easy to hit from what I've seen using only IT and supporters as Frost.

I was cruising around 15-18k as Blood using DS to convert FU pairs to Death runes and spamming IT instead of HS. /cry That was still using RS, mind you.

WoWMeterOnline and doing the threat conversions yourself is the best way. Omen is extremely spiky, even with the right settings it doesn't give an accurate read. I think that's where most people are reporting these numbers, they aren't averaging in the large lulls in frost runes (aka the reality portion of IT spam).

Satorri
03-28-2010, 06:29 AM
Indeed, for Kuren. Omen is nice to see what is live, but I wouldn't put too much faith on remembering TPS snapshots. It is accurate for whatever window you set, but you only remember the numbers of when you glance at it, so you are only seeing moments of threat, not the overall averages or component breakdowns.

Really what I would love to see on top of the breakdown is a profile. It's never about how much threat you make, most tanks can handily out-threat their dps down the road, that is not an issue, but it can be very key to see burst and opening responses and profiles. I'm weird, I like looking at stuff like that.

dotJEM
03-29-2010, 11:59 AM
Ive glanced at omen as well as using Skada, Skada should (Afaik) also use the build in API, the difference is that Skada is measures TPS over an entire encounter, may be useful in these debates...

If people feel the need i can run logs, but currently it is a hog on my computer (can't wait to get a new one)...
I gues others could pinch in as well.

And for TPS parsers, does anyone have an accurate multiplier for IT?... last i heard was around 7, and all considering that IT crits for up towards 3.5k in a fully raid buffed environment, 11 a'int that far fetched with a rotation of sillyness.

The IT change MAY be ok if used as intended, but rest assured, nothing ever is used that way if it can be abused...
This can be a very welcoming door for tanks who previously didn't understand the important parts of TPS...
But far to welcoming if you ass me, and I in particularly don't like if it for the TPS is beneficial to leave out attacks that in my mind should be your main attacks.

I'm not sure how i feel about this being a welcome to DW-Frost who uses tank weapons either...
It is certainly now doable, and it may push the selection of slow DPS tanking weapons down the line...
I Always liked the Idea that we was meant to use strong hitting weapons, but that is of course an opinion of mine...

Anyways... Easter is coming up, won't have time to generate logs until after...
So if really necessary, others could pinch in until i get back.

Küren
03-29-2010, 12:41 PM
Skada uses the built-in API too. There aren't too many add-ons calculating it.

The IT multiplier is about 7. The Frost Presence multiplier is about 2. Therefore, the threat from IT is about 14 times it's damage. In Blood spec with no buffs I'll hit for 940 on IT and the threat is about 13.8k. I still feel IT threat only gets out of hand with crits and the damage modifiers in raids.

Satorri, it's an interesting idea and I don't think any of the parsers break it down by time. TankadinTPS will break it down by ability so it has graphs that are similar to what you get at WoL/WMO.

I do agree though that any report that includes the TPS shown in Omen isn't scientific. I only use it to look at the total threat value. As DKs our threat is all over the place. I've noticed that other classes are much more consistent on that number though.

Itandir
03-31-2010, 10:43 AM
Ok so in summary, what spec have the best survivability / threat produce?

KnThrak
03-31-2010, 04:29 PM
Bloofronholy

SolHeiM
04-09-2010, 01:13 PM
Ok so in summary, what spec have the best survivability / threat produce?

Not quite sure. I played around with a spec today, which is slightly different from the one I'm posting here. I thought this would be the best for ridicuLOL single target TPS, because you get to press Icy Touch 6 times in a row with a 130 RP bar for maximum Frost Strike dumps.

The sustained threat is about 9-11k I think, and when you get around to spam your Icy Touch you easily burst up to over 20k.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0gh0hZGxe0Abf0c0cuzAo0x

Glyphs: Obliterate, Frost Strike and Rune Strike

Here's two screenshots of my performance in a 10H ICC raid.
http://lotto.3rex.net/festergut.jpg
http://lotto.3rex.net/putricide.jpg

Edgewalker
04-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Ok so in summary, what spec have the best survivability / threat produce?

It doesn't matter. Threat production with every spec is beyond what any DPS will be pulling threatwise.

KnThrak
04-09-2010, 11:33 PM
Yes, and survivability is easy to raid. Blood on average, situationally Frost or Unholy have the upper hand but it is only in isolated cases, and there's too few of them to bring them up to par. The new WotN just beats the living daylight out of the other two specs when it comes to surviving blunt trauma. :)