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stgeorge
02-19-2010, 10:35 AM
I read through the Rotface encounter thread and our 10-man group watched the tankspot video and we thought we understood, but we clearly didn't - 10 straight wipes, every single one of them under 1 minute in duration.

We were completely flummoxed by how the spray works, it seems sometimes he would turn and face someone, other times he'd be spinning around - at least 5 people would get hit by it.

The oozes came out very quickly, like every 4 or 5 seconds it felt like. By the time the first person kited his ooze out the second ooze was already formed and before we could form the big ooze, a third ooze was already in the raid. We would typically have 4 oozes out before we could finally form a big ooze (but by that point 5-6 people were dead)

The small oozes would take at least 5 seconds before they formed together, usually dancing around each other never quite touching which killed our dps (and caused 2 players to eat 2 sets of AOE).

We had 3 healers, and in 7 of the attempts 2 healers were the first to get the oozes which caused almost immediate wipes. We tried 2 healing one time, but the raid just flat out got wiped when a healer had to kite.

Is it really meant to be this hard? For reference, we 1 shot the prior bosses except for Saurfang which we usually need 2 or 3 attempts. We average about 36-38K raid DPS on Festergut when our Disc priest goes shadow.

Tanks: Warrior (boss), DK Frost (kiter)
Heals: Shaman, Paladin, Disc Priest (goes shadow for 2 heal attempts)
DPS: Mage, DK Blood, Fury Warrior, 2 Hunters

Colonel Mustard
02-19-2010, 12:23 PM
If by spray, you mean slime spray, it works just like it does in normal mode, he picks a target, and starts hurling.

We usually just wing this one, one tank, three healers, casters spread out, hunter usually kites.

Not sure what's going on with the oozes, haven't had the same problem, when you try to merge the oozes you don't need to be on the actual ooze, just dance around a bit in front of it and the little ooze paths to the big one. Save freedom or cooldowns for if the kiter happens to end up in slime, but try to stay away from it, better to move the boss from the middle and kite around the slime.

When someone gets the infection, make sure they move as fast as possible, and when just outside the raid dispell it, that will ensure the ooze spawns and is already pathing along when you try to merge it. Waiting with dispelling it until the target is on the ooze is often a time waster. I think we usually blow up two oozes before the boss is dead.

When he casts vile gas, spread out so you don't link it, there's usually a brief moment to do so.

Hope any of this is of use.

stgeorge
02-19-2010, 01:14 PM
Well, we can't even get a big ooze to form before half the raid is dead. We had two people literally standing on each other with 2 little oozes who refused to form together until 5 seconds later (at which point both dps were dead). We've had the big ooze just glide right over a little ooze without forming together. Healers are constantly pulling aggro on the big ooze or even better, being forced to kite.

Then I go read World of Logs and I see 85% of all 10 man guilds wipe on Rotface. The average 10-man guild capable of killing the boss is doing 60k raid dps in a 10-man, so I can see how it's easy when you're killing the boss in under 90 seconds, but that's never going to happen for us.

I think the second half fights might be a bit overtuned if on 10-man normal, you have 50-60% guilds clearing the first 5 bosses (reasonable) and then it drops down to 15% for the next 5 (unreasonable) and 1% for the lich king (which means guilds like ours will never see that - or more likely any decent player we have will jump ship to a high-end raiding guild leaving us in a constant state of mediocrity).

Ack, I'm ranting, it's been a tough raiding week.

Bashal
02-19-2010, 01:18 PM
It sounds like a general lack of coordination handling the oozes.

The mutating infections (at first, certainly within the first minute) really don't come every 5 seconds, its more like 12. But when things are hectic it can seem like less time.

There are a few different ways to do this fight. They all work; some methods just click for you more than they did for someone else.

* In the end, my raid settled on cleansing immediately. THis means the infected person needs to start moving to the ooze kiter (or the first guy to get a little ooze) right away, too.... and in the correct direction ;)

* The dps are kind of "spread out" at melee range behind him; if he turns in someone's general direction to puke, they move around to his side temporarily (usually 2-3 people have to move).

* At 10% health we stop cleansing, and just burn the boss (heroism if ya got it).

If it makes you feel any better, between two different ICC10 groups, we easily wiped more than 20 times before we finally killed him. Some bosses just kinda throw you for a loop until you get a couple of kills in.

The reason why we cleanse immediately is because the infection gives a debuff that reduces healing received, which can make it hard to keep them alive if they take any additional damage beyond what the infection gives.

Bashal
02-19-2010, 01:23 PM
I think the second half fights might be a bit overtuned if on 10-man normal, you have 50-60% guilds clearing the first 5 bosses (reasonable) and then it drops down to 15% for the next 5

Count on the encounters being nerfed as time goes on. That seems to be blizzard's strategy for ensuring everyone sees it, yet at the same time giving more uber people a bit more of a challenge.

Quinafoi
02-19-2010, 02:46 PM
If you're losing half your raid in the first minute of the encounter, it isn't because the encounter is overtuned. There are very serious problems with the raid in general if you aren't capable of surviving even that long. There isn't sufficient information provided to determine what the problems are for your raid.

On the boss turning...
The boss turns to cast Mutated Infection and Slime Spray. If you react to the wrong one, you may end up running right into the other. Slime Spray has a cast time, pay attention to the cast bar for the boss, if you don't see him casting, you don't have to move out of the way. The closer you are to the boss, the easier slime spray is to dodge, you have to move 2 yards to get out of the path instead of 10 yards. However, even if you're at range such as after a big ooze explosion, you can still avoid much of the slime spray if you are paying attention to it while you are running back in to the middle.

On the small oozes...
1. Everyone has to know where they are running out to before they run. If they run to the wrong side of the room, that's their fault. Look before you leap. You have 12 seconds to get out of the raid, that's plenty of time to figure out where you are going first before you drive halfway across the country in the wrong direction.
2. Never clense a person unless they are both moving in the right direction (towards the big ooze) and already out of the center. The dot ticking on the person even with the healing reduction debuff is still less to heal through than the aura of the slime on the entire raid. If they ran out of the raid the wrong way, don't clense them early either otherwise you just have a mob chasing them until they can get it merged.
3. No one is responsible for merging your slime except yourself. If you fail to merge the slime that spawns from you, that's your fault. No one can correct it for you. Learn from your mistake and stop repeating it. No one else can move your character for you.
4. You don't have to kite small oozes. Little wake up call, but a small ooze isn't going to kill you if your healing is sufficient for the encounter. For that matter, you will take damage regardless because you can't outrun it completely like you can with the big ooze. The first person to get it can simply wait for the second person to come out. They don't need to run around in a circle while the other person chases them. Just stand in place, wait for the second person, when they merge, both run back and the kiter takes over. If you can't merge the first two when there is nothing else going on in the encounter yet, your raid has absolutely no chance of completing this encounter.

Muffin Man
02-19-2010, 03:14 PM
Is it really meant to be this hard? For reference, we 1 shot the prior bosses except for Saurfang which we usually need 2 or 3 attempts. We average about 36-38K raid DPS on Festergut when our Disc priest goes shadow.

Not to be harsh. But in many ways Rotface is the first difficult boss.

If you have the dps/hps/eh. Marrowgar, Gunship, Festergut will fall without much effort.

Deathwhisper isn't difficult either, though it does require a little awareness. Saurfang can be tough if your dps are tunnel visioners, which by ICC I doubt they are. But once the beasts are focused properly, it's a straightforward fight.

Rotface though... it's one hell of a coordination check (Princes and Valithira are also crazy).

Small oozes not forming could be lag. Either the server doesn't think they're close enough to merge or it's graphical lag and they've already merged (nameplates help with the latter).

A frost DK might just be the perfect tank for the big ooze. So healers should never be getting aggro from the big slime. Frost Fever, Howling Blast, Death Coil is quite a toolbox for kiting.

One thing I've noticed for Rotface is that panic usually dooms raids. It sounds like it's happening to you guys if you can't figure out the spray. Rotface will face someone, then start to spray. He doesn't continue to move. But if people are jittery and running back and forth then of course they'll have difficulty locating a safe zone. If people are jittery and spread out instead of stack up, he'll end up facing almost any direction. Then main advantage to having two separate groups is that the instant he turns you'll know whether or not he's targetting you. But if you guys are sloppy and spread out.. maybe he's targetting you or maybe he's not, and where exactly is the edge of his cone?

You still have to be careful to adjust if he targets someone running with the slime, either the infected person or the kiter. That's just an element of randomness that your raid will have to deal with.

Learning this fight is about milestones.

The first one is getting the big ooze formed and kited away from the raid.

The next one is surviving an ooze explosion.

The last one is keeping your calm through his soft enrage (there's no emote, he just started infecting people faster and it gets more frenetic).

Good luck.

stgeorge
02-19-2010, 03:40 PM
If you're losing half your raid in the first minute of the encounter, it isn't because the encounter is overtuned. There are very serious problems with the raid in general if you aren't capable of surviving even that long. There isn't sufficient information provided to determine what the problems are for your raid.

On the boss turning...
The boss turns to cast Mutated Infection and Slime Spray. If you react to the wrong one, you may end up running right into the other. Slime Spray has a cast time, pay attention to the cast bar for the boss, if you don't see him casting, you don't have to move out of the way. The closer you are to the boss, the easier slime spray is to dodge, you have to move 2 yards to get out of the path instead of 10 yards. However, even if you're at range such as after a big ooze explosion, you can still avoid much of the slime spray if you are paying attention to it while you are running back in to the middle.

On the small oozes...
1. Everyone has to know where they are running out to before they run. If they run to the wrong side of the room, that's their fault. Look before you leap. You have 12 seconds to get out of the raid, that's plenty of time to figure out where you are going first before you drive halfway across the country in the wrong direction.
2. Never clense a person unless they are both moving in the right direction (towards the big ooze) and already out of the center. The dot ticking on the person even with the healing reduction debuff is still less to heal through than the aura of the slime on the entire raid. If they ran out of the raid the wrong way, don't clense them early either otherwise you just have a mob chasing them until they can get it merged.
3. No one is responsible for merging your slime except yourself. If you fail to merge the slime that spawns from you, that's your fault. No one can correct it for you. Learn from your mistake and stop repeating it. No one else can move your character for you.
4. You don't have to kite small oozes. Little wake up call, but a small ooze isn't going to kill you if your healing is sufficient for the encounter. For that matter, you will take damage regardless because you can't outrun it completely like you can with the big ooze. The first person to get it can simply wait for the second person to come out. They don't need to run around in a circle while the other person chases them. Just stand in place, wait for the second person, when they merge, both run back and the kiter takes over. If you can't merge the first two when there is nothing else going on in the encounter yet, your raid has absolutely no chance of completing this encounter.

I came here to get advice and I appreciate everyone's help so far. But you need to realize that not every guild is full of superstars who can dance around multiple boss mechanics and still pop out 9000 DPS while 2 healing everything and power-kill the boss in under 90 seconds.

If 85% of the guilds *who take the time to send logs to Worlds of Logs* (which means these are more organized guilds already) are failing this encounter in normal, then perhaps the encounter is too hard. Hard modes should be tuned for 10%-15% completion rate. Normal mode should not. That's it for the soapbox. :)

Mammoth
02-19-2010, 04:16 PM
Q is right though. Rotface is the first boss you can't cover for other player's shortcomings. You either move out of Slime Spray or you get hit. You either kite your little Ooze properly into the Big Ooze or you take a ton of damage over time and die; or form a second Big Ooze; or cause Little Ooze AOE damage to the rest of the raid. My 10-man guild still hasn't downed Rotface (though recent absences due to RL have contributed) and it all comes down to people not properly avoiding slime spray and failing to kite oozes. We have the tanks, heals, and DPS for it. We're still working on raid awareness and that's why we struggle on Rotface. A few things we've learned:

Oozes merging: the graphics for this are problematic. The oozes will frequently graphically merge several seconds after they are brought within range. Our solution is to simply make sure you've brought them close enough and get on with your business. Trust that the oozes will merge rather than stand in the two AOEs and die waiting for the graphic of the merge.

Dispel as soon as the infected player gains distance from the raid. The 50% healing debuff will kill them if they end up taking any additional damage.

Q said it already but it bears mentioning. Players must figure out where they need to go before they move. One step in the wrong direction means you are now 2 steps behind.

Fledern
02-19-2010, 04:47 PM
I came here to get advice and I appreciate everyone's help so far. But you need to realize that not every guild is full of superstars who can dance around multiple boss mechanics and still pop out 9000 DPS while 2 healing everything and power-kill the boss in under 90 seconds.

If 85% of the guilds *who take the time to send logs to Worlds of Logs* (which means these are more organized guilds already) are failing this encounter in normal, then perhaps the encounter is too hard. Hard modes should be tuned for 10%-15% completion rate. Normal mode should not. That's it for the soapbox. :)

There is no such requirement to beat this encounter. And yeah, our guild is full of the opposite of superstars but we did manage to beat this encounter both in 10man and in 25man (and in 25man you have way more opportunities to fuck up :P)

From your description, it sounds like your primary problem is your dispeller - he's dispelling the disease before the infected moves out of the raid. That's a lot of raiddamage right there and healers are probably panicing trying to heal up everybody and missing one of the tank, the kiter or the little ooze kiter and then everything goes to hell.

This is what we do to beat the encounter reliably:

1. Assign one and only one dispeller. Nobody else should try dispelling. The dispeller should dispel just as the person comes near the big ooze (or the ooze kiter if the big ooze hasnt formed yet).
2. People with little ooze should wait to see their ooze merge with the big one before running back. The big ooze has a pretty hefty range at which it can absorb the little one so it's possible to stay out of its aoe range and still deposit your little ooze. The merging can take a good 3-5 secs so be prepared to hang out there for a bit
3. Mark the ooze kiter with a very visible mark. We use either orange circle or the yellow star. Both are the lowest priority for DBM usage but if the ooze kiter gets infected it'll overwrite it. Give marking privilages to your ooze kiter so he can mark himself back
4. Make it clear to everyone that it's their job to take their disease/little ooze to the big ooze. Not the kiters job. One raidmember came up with a very good analogy that made everyone understand it really well: The ooze kiter is a schoolbus driver, the big ooze is the bus. Your little ooze is your child. The bus doesnt come to pick up your child, you go to get your child onboard to where the bus can pick him up :)
5. Let the ooze kiter run through the green puddles covering the quadrants. But make sure that NOBODY ELSE goes in there. The ooze kiter is a tank and is being healed, having the healers deal with more heal targets is asking for trouble. If the kiter is going through a puddle, the diseased should wait for him at the exit point.

All this setup does is it makes sure that only 3 people at any time need healing: The tank, the kiter and the diseased.

As for avoiding the spray, if he turns to put mutated infection on somebody it's over in an instant and he turns back anyway. If he turns to puke, you should have ample time to run away anyway. The trick of having everyone stand in melee range is also good - only the hunters will need some range - sides of the boss are usually good places where they'll (hunters) need minimal movement.

Once you get this running smoothly, you'll notice that diseases start coming in in faster intervals. The idea is to NOT panic. That proved to be the hardest hurdle to get over for us. It's very possible to have a big ooze exploding and 2 infected people running about with little oozes attached to their ass. While visually that looks complicated, there's absolutely no change in game mechanics and if you keep cool, you should continue on fine.

Third nasty thing to manage is the Big Ooze explosion. Best person to watch for this is the tank. He should also be watching which quadrants got covered and which quadrants just cleared so he knows where he should kite the boss on the explosion. If he complains about it being complicated, slap him hard, he has the easiest job in the encounter. He should wait & watch the big ooze, see it cast the green blobs, announce on vent to everybody to get out and kite the boss the hell away from the middle where the raid just was.

The fight does require quite a bit of coordination to get right but if people keep cool & observe the schoolbus trick, it should settle down pretty fast.

(So far, i've seen all encounters except LK first hand and i'd say Putricide is the hardest one with Rotface coming up second. Dont despair at wiping a lot :P)

Muffin Man
02-19-2010, 07:40 PM
I came here to get advice and I appreciate everyone's help so far. But you need to realize that not every guild is full of superstars who can dance around multiple boss mechanics and still pop out 9000 DPS while 2 healing everything and power-kill the boss in under 90 seconds.

If 85% of the guilds *who take the time to send logs to Worlds of Logs* (which means these are more organized guilds already) are failing this encounter in normal, then perhaps the encounter is too hard. Hard modes should be tuned for 10%-15% completion rate. Normal mode should not. That's it for the soapbox. :)

He's giving you the boss mechanics. If you panic or if you think that the fight is just too hard, then you're not going to make progress. It's a demanding fight since it randomly puts people on the spot. Anubarak was like that too during the submerge phases. You could go weeks without being chased. Then you get targetted a immediately die... that's a pretty steep learning curve.

There are a lot of fights were at first gasp it's like... how are we going to do it. A lot of 25 man guilds had that feeling for Thorim when they couldn't even get past the gauntlet. Hell as a tank, the first few times I tried tanking Thorium's arena I felt like it was just overtuned. Remember Mimiron? All those phases, so many things to remember and run from.

Or a more recent example FACTION CHAMPIONS. People railed against it up and down the forums. People said it wasn't possible for PvE only guilds to beat them. All these people claimed that despite being superstars they just couldn't beat the encounter.

But eventually they just took it one step at a time, killing one champion before wipe, then two... at least with Rotface you'll get a lot of repetition on spawning oozes and 'handing' them off to the kiter. By default you'll get some practice avoiding his slime spray. This is a great fight for putting raiding markings on raiders too. One on the kiter, and one on each 'group leader' like for KT melee. Then you just follow the appropriate mark at the appropriate time. Break the fight down into manageable steps.

If my non-Yogg killing 10-man guild can down Rotface then yours can learn it too.


Oozes merging: the graphics for this are problematic. The oozes will frequently graphically merge several seconds after they are brought within range. Our solution is to simply make sure you've brought them close enough and get on with your business. Trust that the oozes will merge rather than stand in the two AOEs and die waiting for the graphic of the merge.

Try my nameplates trick. Outside of the first week, I've been tanking this fight, but it worked then with the graphical lag and I'd assume it still does.

Also, when merging small oozes. Always bring them to where the big ooze is going, don't chase after the big ooze. I recall that the small ooze would fake out on trying to merge with the big ooze if you approached from behind.

jigarita
02-19-2010, 07:56 PM
This fight has been the thorn in our side for weeks. We have wiped more than I can count. Last night was our best attempt getting down to 12%. I will tell you our first dozen attempts were a lot like yours... Not making it past a min. Here are some of the things that are working for us:

1. All ranged (except hunter) grouped up on Rot's behind. Boss tank announces "MOVE" when the spray happens and basically boss tank and raid switch places. All the raiders move behind the boss while he is spraying and the Boss Tank moves to the side and close to his front (stay out of spray). The two leg method on tankspot was a little too much for us with the "is it me that has to move?" Everyone moves, plain and simple.

2. A priest follows our Kiter tank around on their run. He keeps heals up on the tank and dispells the mutation. All the raiders are suggested to zoom their camera's all the way out and look down on the raid. It makes it so that they can see the tank and big ooze from anywhere. When someone gets infected they run straight to the tank even if it is straight through the boss.

3. Explosion - Boss Tank calls it out... "Explosion - Left(Right)" everyone straff to left or right depending on where a puddle of green goo happens to be at that moment. Worst case has been happening where a spray and an explosion overlap. That is what got us at 12%. :S

The main thing is practice. i have had one raider that gets really annoyed with the weeks of wiping on this boss. It is frustrating. The thing is it is challenging. We keep doing better. Last week our best attempt was 36%. Last night we got it to 12%.

I like to have a challenge and I see this as a challenge but one that is doable. Believe me we aren't the best raiders in the bunch. We average about 5k dps. So we aren't the elite. Yet we got this far and we will keep chugging along.

Hope this helps someone.

Quinafoi
02-20-2010, 01:41 AM
I came here to get advice and I appreciate everyone's help so far. But you need to realize that not every guild is full of superstars who can dance around multiple boss mechanics and still pop out 9000 DPS while 2 healing everything and power-kill the boss in under 90 seconds.

If 85% of the guilds *who take the time to send logs to Worlds of Logs* (which means these are more organized guilds already) are failing this encounter in normal, then perhaps the encounter is too hard. Hard modes should be tuned for 10%-15% completion rate. Normal mode should not. That's it for the soapbox. :)

Please direct me to the blue post that says if you spend an hour fighting a boss you are entitled a kill and loot.

Simply showing up at the boss does not necessarily mean you can kill it.

Bottom line. You spend 10 attempts on it. Maybe your raid is one of those raids that needs 50. That's just the way some raids are. Not everyone learns at the same pace. You claim to already understand the mechanics of the encounter, that's great. "Knowing is half the battle." Now you just have to put that knowledge to use and work at it. Knowing alone isn't enough to get a kill. If you simply give up and say it's too tough, well, then the encounter beat you before you even got there.

Things you are doing right...
Your raid has a problem and you're seeking help, nothing wrong with that.
Things you are doing wrong...
Assuming your raid is entitled easy content, that simply because they know the strat they should be gaurenteed a kill. Complaining about the fight being too hard isn't going to help you get beyond the fight. You have to work at it, simple as that. If life provides you no challenges, you will never grow. The same holds true in the game.

If you're going to complain about the fight being too hard, no amount of advice is going to change that. Any failures you make you will simply mark up as the fight is overtuned and unfair. You won't learn from your mistakes and you won't improve because you'd consider it meaningless, what's the point of attempting to learn an encounter if it is overtuned and you have no chance of winning.

Rudolpho
02-20-2010, 07:12 AM
Rotface is not hard with practice. I had an amazing group for the first 8 weeks of ICC and rotface rolled over us for like 2 weeks. Once we finally got him down, we had brought in 2 pugs and still managed with no deaths. Now, my group has changed. Still have about half of the same people but this week the new group tried rot for first time and took about 5 tries for the new people to learn the mechanics and down him. He is just really really easy if people can pay attention and DONT panic.

gacktt
02-20-2010, 08:26 AM
Rotface on 10 man is a control fight, even if you all do 3k dps on average he will die as long as you can handle slimes, even if they come every 6 seconds you should still be able to handle all of it as it is part of the fight. Wiping comes as a domino effect, if the slime kiter fails then you will wipe, if people fail at merging or swim around in pools or don't avoid explosion then yeah you will go down one by one.------ Doing 8-9k dps for everyone just makes his normal mode a joke because you get to bypass the soft enrage of 6 second applications, you'll still have to learn how to survive 2 or so minutes of his soft enrage for hard mode.

Mr.Winkle
02-20-2010, 09:06 PM
I'm not sure where you got your worldoflogs info from either, the average dps for a kill is 34.5k with kills as low as 20k.

There's no enrage timer as far as i know, its more just about execution. We wiped >20 times before everyone got the hang of it, but now we can 1-shot it.

Here's some additional tips:

1) When mereging the slimes just hame the small slime kiter run through the big slime. The kiter will take 1 5k tick of dmg but the slimes will merge. Sometimes there does seem to be a small delay on the merge animation, it;s just something you need to get used too.

2) Keep kiting small slimes to the big slime even when it's begining to explode, they still merge.

TBH if you're wiping inside 1 minute then somethings going really wrong. It's only at the 3 minute timer that he starts putting out slimes every 6 seconds.

Kloon
02-21-2010, 07:55 AM
I lead a 10man team in my guild there, last week we struggled with him and killed him at like eight attempt, with only me being alive (Paladin tank, i kited the ooze's, soloed last 2%)

This week we 1shotted him, with only 1 dead, our setup was:

Tanks: 1 Paladin (Kiter) & 1 Druid.
DPS: 2 Rogues, 1 Priest, 1 Destruction Warlock and 1 Survival Hunter
Healers 2 Holy Paladins (One cleansing the disease) 1 1 Restoration Druid.

mangaart1st
02-21-2010, 09:38 PM
I lead two different 10 mans for ICC each week. I run one myself, and Raid Lead both. I can tell you this my primary group it tooks us exactly 30 attempts for our first kill. This was before the HP nerf which was imo badly needed. Since then that group in the following weeks slowly took less and less attempts per week. Now that group 1 shots every week. My 2nd group, going in with the knowledge I had from my first group took roughly 8-9 attempts for their first kill.

In all I have probably a total of 80 something attempts on Rotface between two groups.

The only hints I can give you is this:

**PAITENCE**

We start with 3 heals in both groups and until 50% one of our healers help with DPS and we Heroism at the start. Mainly this fight like everyone has stated is a fight of milestones.

Natal
02-22-2010, 01:47 AM
How effective are cleansing totems? My guild is having problems with this fight and we started using cleansing totems, it certainly seemed to help but I have heard mixed feelings about using them? If anybody knows a prior post or has any experience using them in this encounter please let me know, thanks!

Mr.Winkle
02-22-2010, 03:27 AM
How effective are cleansing totems? My guild is having problems with this fight and we started using cleansing totems, it certainly seemed to help but I have heard mixed feelings about using them? If anybody knows a prior post or has any experience using them in this encounter please let me know, thanks!

A cleansing totem isn't ideal since it only ticks once every 5 seconds. You really want the slime injection cleansed immediately since the debuff does serious damage.

Bashal
02-22-2010, 08:48 AM
not every guild is full of superstars...

Lol.

My guild isn't full of superstars.

We never got yogg, or firefighter, three knocks, or (of course) algalon.
We never full-cleared TOGC10.

But we can get rotface. You can, too, if you keep at it.

Quinafoi
02-22-2010, 08:54 AM
A cleansing totem isn't ideal since it only ticks once every 5 seconds. You really want the slime injection cleansed immediately since the debuff does serious damage.

Clensing the debuff immediately is universally bad. The raid ends up taking significantly more damage. You never clense it immediately but rather wait until the person is out of the raid before clensing it. The aura, however small it may be, is more than double the damage if applied to the entire raid than that of the person with the debuff who has a healing reduction on them.

Small Ooze = Inflicts 3,413 to 3,587 Nature damage every 2 seconds to players within 10 yards.
Mutated Infection = 3,413 to 3,587 damage every 1 second for 12 seconds, and reduces healing received by 50%.

3500 DPS with 50% healing reduction means it requires 7000 HPS to counter.
1750 DPS x 8 People (assuming kiter and prior infected person are not in the raid) = 14,000 DPS w/o Mortal Debuff = 14,000 HPS required to counter.

By clensing immediately, you double the healing required. Never clense immediately, wait until the person moves before clensing.

Theotherone
02-22-2010, 09:17 AM
Don't feel bad, we have the same issues with Rottface, it's pretty much of a cluster fuck. We one shot everything; and even have Festergut down now (5 sec to enrage the first time, now it's beat the enrage by 30 sec); but Rottface; we got ozzes dropping in the middle of the raid, we got the kiting tank with the big ozze avoiding the slime at the expense of coming into the raid; we have people getting puked on, etc. I think the observation that it's panic is the correct one; and our main 10 man group has some good experienced, raiders, but it's as if once this fight gets going people strip their undies and don't break the fight down into it component parts; which would make it pretty simple. It really is just an a twist on Grobulus; fights we've all seen and done. You'll get it just like we'll get it and then like with all fights once you beat it a light bulb goes off and it's farm mode.

I think what people need to do is visualize what they're going to do in the upcoming fight; "if this happens, I do this; if that happens, I do this, etc."; they say, the people who have the best chance to survive a plane crash are those who actually look for the closest exit before take off; if you know where you're going before the panic sets in, you'll react appropriately,

jaykaywhy
02-22-2010, 10:29 AM
How effective are cleansing totems? My guild is having problems with this fight and we started using cleansing totems, it certainly seemed to help but I have heard mixed feelings about using them? If anybody knows a prior post or has any experience using them in this encounter please let me know, thanks!

Cleansing totems are a bad idea. Since the cleansing effect pulses every 5 seconds, unless you have it timed perfectly that your shaman puts down the Cleansing Totem timed so it'd pulse right as the infected reaches the offtank, the ooze could wind up anywhere in your raid.

jaykaywhy
02-22-2010, 10:38 AM
I read through the Rotface encounter thread and our 10-man group watched the tankspot video and we thought we understood, but we clearly didn't - 10 straight wipes, every single one of them under 1 minute in duration.

We were completely flummoxed by how the spray works, it seems sometimes he would turn and face someone, other times he'd be spinning around - at least 5 people would get hit by it.

The oozes came out very quickly, like every 4 or 5 seconds it felt like. By the time the first person kited his ooze out the second ooze was already formed and before we could form the big ooze, a third ooze was already in the raid. We would typically have 4 oozes out before we could finally form a big ooze (but by that point 5-6 people were dead)

The small oozes would take at least 5 seconds before they formed together, usually dancing around each other never quite touching which killed our dps (and caused 2 players to eat 2 sets of AOE).

We had 3 healers, and in 7 of the attempts 2 healers were the first to get the oozes which caused almost immediate wipes. We tried 2 healing one time, but the raid just flat out got wiped when a healer had to kite.

Is it really meant to be this hard? For reference, we 1 shot the prior bosses except for Saurfang which we usually need 2 or 3 attempts. We average about 36-38K raid DPS on Festergut when our Disc priest goes shadow.

Tanks: Warrior (boss), DK Frost (kiter)
Heals: Shaman, Paladin, Disc Priest (goes shadow for 2 heal attempts)
DPS: Mage, DK Blood, Fury Warrior, 2 Hunters


Your problem is obvious in that you're not actually familiar with the boss mechanics.

When someone has the Mutated Infection, he takes personal DoT damage, but easily healable. You should not be dispelling a Mutated Infection while the person is in the raid. The first and second person should not be "kiting an ooze" out of the raid, simply because there should be no ooze in the raid to begin with.

Ooze in the raid = Raid-wide AoE damage
Mutated Infection = Single-target damage.

First person with the ooze runs to the offtank and STAYS there. You can dispell it at this point, but make sure the Infected person STAYS with the offtank. When the second person gets Mutated Infection, s/he runs towards the offtank, then gets dispelled.

Once the little oozes have been cleansed and merge into a big ooze, THEN they can run back into the raid.

The Ooze has a pulsing aura that does two things: merges with other oozes and AoE damage. If you happened to catch just after it pulsed, they won't merge for another few seconds.

Slime Spray is easily avoidable. Have all your DPS and Healers stack up behind Rotface. When he does the the cast time for slime spray, everyone needs to run out of the AoE Cone Effect, either just straight through him (no collision ftw), or strafe to his laterals.

Don't be so quick to claim that the encounter is too hard; other guilds have done it, you can too.

jaykaywhy
02-22-2010, 10:42 AM
I came here to get advice and I appreciate everyone's help so far. But you need to realize that not every guild is full of superstars who can dance around multiple boss mechanics and still pop out 9000 DPS while 2 healing everything and power-kill the boss in under 90 seconds.

If 85% of the guilds *who take the time to send logs to Worlds of Logs* (which means these are more organized guilds already) are failing this encounter in normal, then perhaps the encounter is too hard. Hard modes should be tuned for 10%-15% completion rate. Normal mode should not. That's it for the soapbox. :)

I love that disparity.

Either your guild is full of superstars that can dance multiple boss mechanics, while performing 9000 D/HPS and one-shot bosses on your first attempt;

or you can't down Rotface.

stgeorge
02-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Your problem is obvious in that you're not actually familiar with the boss mechanics.

When someone has the Mutated Infection, he takes personal DoT damage, but easily healable. You should not be dispelling a Mutated Infection while the person is in the raid. The first and second person should not be "kiting an ooze" out of the raid, simply because there should be no ooze in the raid to begin with.

Ooze in the raid = Raid-wide AoE damage
Mutated Infection = Single-target damage.

First person with the ooze runs to the offtank and STAYS there. You can dispell it at this point, but make sure the Infected person STAYS with the offtank. When the second person gets Mutated Infection, s/he runs towards the offtank, then gets dispelled.

Once the little oozes have been cleansed and merge into a big ooze, THEN they can run back into the raid.

The Ooze has a pulsing aura that does two things: merges with other oozes and AoE damage. If you happened to catch just after it pulsed, they won't merge for another few seconds.

Slime Spray is easily avoidable. Have all your DPS and Healers stack up behind Rotface. When he does the the cast time for slime spray, everyone needs to run out of the AoE Cone Effect, either just straight through him (no collision ftw), or strafe to his laterals.

Don't be so quick to claim that the encounter is too hard; other guilds have done it, you can too.

People are saying it's 12 seconds between mutated infections (felt a lot quicker, we would be dead in a minute with about 4-5 oozes out). It took 5 seconds for the first 2 oozes to merge if we made it that far (at which point the 2 dps waiting are taking 6k/second damage, and several times they were in the way of the slime spray or a slime pool formed underneath them). Maybe it's bad luck. 7 of the 10 attempts the first 2 with the oozes were healers, and they could not heal while trying to get the slimes to merge.

We wound up getting a big ooze on 2 of the attempts, but the raid was half dead and the big ooze would just go to the middle both times and wipe everyone.

Slime Spray is not "easily avoidable" - we had the raid run through the boss, but he would just turn and spray the raid anyway. I didn't understand it. The healers couldn't keep up, they were doing about 3000 HPS each. Maybe that's not enough, I don't know.

Less skilled guilds have to deal with these mechanics with total precision where one mistake = wipe, while highly skilled guilds can usually just power through stuff and make mistakes and not even notice. I'm sure the fight feels easier when you're never in any danger of dying due to one mistake wiping the raid.

It's too much of a jump from Festergut to Rotface. No casual guild is going to be able to keep members for 10+ wipes on a single boss. They get bored and stop coming, they will hop to another guild, they will go PVP or they will pug and not be available. I don't think Blizzard really understands the mentality and skill level of the casual raider they are so desperately trying to push into raiding.

We'll just keep tooling about in the first wing.

Quinafoi
02-22-2010, 02:59 PM
People are saying it's 12 seconds between mutated infections (felt a lot quicker, we would be dead in a minute with about 4-5 oozes out). It took 5 seconds for the first 2 oozes to merge if we made it that far (at which point the 2 dps waiting are taking 6k/second damage, and several times they were in the way of the slime spray or a slime pool formed underneath them). Maybe it's bad luck. 7 of the 10 attempts the first 2 with the oozes were healers, and they could not heal while trying to get the slimes to merge.

Depending on how the people die, they can spawn an additional slime on death. Obviously if they die with the debuff it spawns a slime but other mechanics will also cause a slime to spawn if they die from it (don't know the complete list). Mutated Infection starts at 12 seconds between casts, at about 3 minutes into the fight it reaches its minimum time which is about 6 seconds between casts. At that point on, the fight never changes until the boss is dead or the raid wipes. If you can survive minutes 3-4, you can survive minutes 4-5, though eventually you will run out of resources (healer mana). The rate he casts Mutated Infection is relatively predicatble, however, because if people die from other mechanics may lead to additional small ooze spawns, you can get more oozes than you'd expect in a shorter time frame.


Slime Spray is not "easily avoidable" - we had the raid run through the boss, but he would just turn and spray the raid anyway. I didn't understand it. The healers couldn't keep up, they were doing about 3000 HPS each. Maybe that's not enough, I don't know.

Again...
The boss turns to cast BOTH Mutated Infection and Slime Spray. Most likely your people are reacting to the wrong cast, running to the other side only to have him cast Slime Spray in the direction they chose to run to. Once he picks a direction to cast Slime Spray, he does not move or turn until the cast is over. Once he starts his cast (has a cast bar) his direction is fixed and will not change. When the castbar appears, that's when you get out of the way. Not before. Not after.


Less skilled guilds have to deal with these mechanics with total precision where one mistake = wipe, while highly skilled guilds can usually just power through stuff and make mistakes and not even notice. I'm sure the fight feels easier when you're never in any danger of dying due to one mistake wiping the raid.

No.
This encounter is designed such that even a strong raid can have a chain reaction wipe. If a person dies, a slime is spawned aggros on a healer because the person it came from is dead, runs to the raid, aggro held by either tank's AoE threat in their rotation, DPS AoE abilities, or healer threat it stays in the raid unless the person with aggro realizes it quickly enough and gets it out of the raid. If someone else dies in the raid, now you have a big ooze in the raid. While it does allow for the off tank to pull it out of the raid and merge it with the other big ooze, the raid takes considerable damage from a big ooze being in the raid. More people die from that damage, spawning more oozes. That is your typical chain reaction wipe. Where a skilled raid differs from an unskilled one is usually in their understanding of the mechanics and their reaction to it. If after the first person dies, the person who gets aggro from the small ooze realizes it in a timely fashion, they can get it out of the raid before the issue compounds itself. While yes, killing the boss faster makes the fight easier. The skilled raids have to deal with the exact same mechanics you do, they are just better at handling it.


It's too much of a jump from Festergut to Rotface. No casual guild is going to be able to keep members for 10+ wipes on a single boss. They get bored and stop coming, they will hop to another guild, they will go PVP or they will pug and not be available. I don't think Blizzard really understands the mentality and skill level of the casual raider they are so desperately trying to push into raiding.

This gets into the whole discussion of how do you define "casual". Our casual 25 man for example took about 40 attempts before our first kill, we have one shot it the past two weeks though. If we gave up at 10, we wouldn't have killed him. If every boss in the game took fewer than 10 attempts and you were assured a kill, then every boss would have been killed already by everyone, and Blizzard would have 6 months of people getting bored before an expansion. I think Blizzard understands better than you think. Raiding isn't for everyone. And those that choose to participate will have varying levels of success and have varying rates of progression.

Are you also upset that you can't earn the Gladiator title by putting in your 10 matches a week and losing them all? I mean surely Blizzard has to understand that you've clearly earned the title and the rewards after your 10 failed attempts each week... right?

Fledern
02-22-2010, 04:06 PM
From your wording, i'm beginning to get the feel your real & major problem is a "we cant do this" attitude. Unless you change that, yes, you will not kill him.

Now for the details:

Infection:
The infection IS on a 12 sec timer that gets faster & faster, down to 6 secs. 6 secs is ample enough time for infected people to move out of the raid. If you're having people die before that, then it can only mean somebody is dispelling them ahead of time. People iceblocking, bubbling, etc will also drop off the slime right inside the raid, so warn people to not try to cheat the mechanic. And even if they do, it's a recoverable error. Oozes start out with a huge aggro lead and are immune to taunt - which means nobody can shake it off them. If the target iceblocks or dies, that aggro resets and the ooze will latch onto somebody else, probably a healer. Whoever has the aggro on the ooze should kite it out of the raid asap, just as if he got the infection. We get this sort of mess all the time. I use a tooltip addon that shows targeting info. So i just hover over the little ooze inside the raid, see who it's targeting, and call him out on vent to move out.

Ooze merging:
Oozes tick for 3K every TWO seconds not per second in a 10 yard radius. So unless you had 4 people standing right on top of each other, there's no way you had 6K/sec damage incoming. The people with mutated infection and after dispelling, an ooze attacking them have to be healed yes, and in the chaos, forgetting to heal them is a mistake easily and frequently done. But the damage involved is nowhere near.
Oozes dont take 5 secs to merge. There is however some server latency issues involved. If you have the first infected person stand still and have the second person with the ooze run up to 10 yrd (8 yrds would be preferable), in about 2 secs MAX, the oozes will merge. Nobody needs to do any panicy running about, just wait there for the oozes to merge. As soon as they see the big ooze healthbar THEN they should get the heck away from there asap.

Slime spray:
Easily avoidable. Quinafoi has explained it clearly. If you see a castbar, you move, if you dont see a bar, you dont move. I see some sort of contradiction here. Either your raiders are too slow at moving out of raid that the disease looks dispelled too quickly - in which case, they certainly wouldnt be able to move out when the boss turns around to cast infection and turns back, it'd look instantaneous to them, OR your raiders are so blazingly fast that they react with super speed to everything and get caught by server lag. I wish i had raiders with such reflexes, consider yourself lucky & work around it. This issue is one that falls under the PAY ATTENTION heading

Next, the question you havent apparently faced yet. Kiting the big ooze. This is done way better with somebody who can kite & aggro while at range. We've found paladin tanks, any sort of deathknight or hunter can do it. Warriors & bears turned out to be horrible kiters. We've found the best way to kite is to let the kiter enter the slime puddles while kiting. He should be getting healed anyway so it wont be too much problem. The real problem will be if people with an ooze on their ass try to go into puddles to get rid of their ooze. That's a no-no. They should wait for the kiter out of the puddle at his exit point. This will mean you will have 3 heal targets during the raid (4 targets once the infection time drops to 6 sec). Boss Tank, Big Ooze kiter, Infected/Ooze person.


The fight itself is complicated and once the infection time drops to 6 seconds, lots of stuff start going around in every portion of the room, leading people to panic & make mistakes. That is the hard part of the encounter and that is the part that's making everybody hate this boss. But until then, it's really really easy. If it's not happening for you, it's because your raiders either dont know the full mechanics of the fight or arent paying attention.

As for keeping a raid together through 10 wipes. It is quite possible. But it requires several things:
1) The raid leader should NEVER get the "we cant do this" attitude
2) After each wipe, the reason should be analysed and the fix made known to all so somebody else doesnt make that mistake again.
3) You should be having SOME progress. For example, you get to see a big ooze explode at least. Then 2nd ooze explode, etc.
4) If the raiders arent really paying attention, then work with them individually, preferably through whispers instead of vent/raidchat. Keep a positive attitude.

We are a pretty casual guild. Some of our 10man runs have the best people & they clear up to the Lich King in one sitting. Some others arent so good and always get stuck on either Rotface or Putricide. If i ever for once believed in "we're too casual to get this done", we'd never go anywhere. I've taken those "not so good" players and ran them through Ulduar hardmodes for protodrakes. Some of them have even done Algalon. Sure it took way more effort than our initial good-player group did but they managed it. And they greatly improved their play so now they count among our good players.

It's all in your head.

sycoman2
02-22-2010, 05:39 PM
As other people have said Rotface is a pure coordination check, if you have the dps to kill fester while standing there and nuking, you have the dps to kill rotface while running around taking care of oozes.

My guild 2 shot fester of our first night of attempts right on enrage.
But it took us about 35 attempts over 2 weeks to down rotface.

Everybody needs to understand the mechanics of the fight and everybody needs to be aware of whats going on.

They need to know where the slime floods are about to happen so they never run into them.
They need to know where the kiter is at all times.
They need to run out of the group immediately when they get infection.
They need to move immediately to not get hit my slime spray.

One big problem we had is people panicking and running around like crazy with a little ooze on them.
If there is not a big ooze formed the you need to run out to the kiter and just stand there and let the thing beat on you until another person gets an ooze, at which point that person comes to you and both just stand there until the big ooze forms.

To ensure proper behavior of the little oozes you need to make sure of a few things.
You absolutely can not let a person with the infection or an ooze die.
People with ooze can not use any sort of immunity or agro drop skills, and to be safe no agro reducing skills either. Also mirror images is know to screw shit up.
Oozes pealing off their intended target to a random person may not screw you at the beginning but it can esily lead to a big ooze forming in the middle of the group during the last phase where infections are comming out much faster.

Timely disposal of little ooze is what this fight is all about.
Which brings me to the issue of dispelling.
There are a lot of people on both sides of the issue so i'll weigh in on it.

The dangers of dispelling immediately are AoE raid damage, and during the speed up phase, multiple ooze in the raid leading to very bad things.

The danger of waiting to dispel is keeping the person alive through the healing debuff.
It is very hard to keep people with the infection alive if rotface happen to slime spray in their direction while they are running to the kiter.

My guild dispels immediately but in order for that to work you need to have people who are paying attention. If your people move the second they get the infection, dispelling immediately will work for you but if they dont, you may have to wait a bit.

stgeorge
02-23-2010, 08:16 AM
Are you also upset that you can't earn the Gladiator title by putting in your 10 matches a week and losing them all? I mean surely Blizzard has to understand that you've clearly earned the title and the rewards after your 10 failed attempts each week... right?

You can lose forever in Arena and BG and still get fairly decent PVP gear (not the best though). You will never get gear from Rotface if you keep wiping on Rotface - and you will probably lose players and fallback to wiping on the first and second boss as you have to gear up new people. I don't think the comparison is applicable. Imagine if you every time you failed a quest, you lost XP until you fell back a level. That's what constant raid wiping is like for a casual guild.

If your 25-man guild can field the same 25 people every week over 40+ wipes, then it's certainly not casual at all. Imagine if half your raid was new people every week because you constantly are losing people and have to bring in undergeared people, that's casual.

Update - we've already lost 2 healers and our top 2 DPS (1 of whom said he refuses to spend gold on constant wiping), so tonight we start again with a new group.

Bashal
02-23-2010, 09:47 AM
People are saying it's 12 seconds between mutated infections (felt a lot quicker, we would be dead in a minute with about 4-5 oozes out).

As I mentioned before, it can feel faster in the heat of the moment. Especially if things are going bad and getting disorganized. I'd like to point out that 60/12=5. So if you are wiping at about the 1-minute mark... you'll have 4-5 oozes up if the infections come every 12 seconds or so.


It took 5 seconds for the first 2 oozes to merge if we made it that far (at which point the 2 dps waiting are taking 6k/second damage, and several times they were in the way of the slime spray or a slime pool formed underneath them). Maybe it's bad luck.

That definitely sounds like a coordination issue. The only solution is practice. And yeah, that means wipes, until you can get it right. It's just how it is.


Slime Spray is not "easily avoidable"

Your experience with it just doesn't seem to match ours. Once he starts casting the slime spray (it's a channeled cast), if you move, he doesn't track the person initially targeted.


Less skilled guilds have to deal with these mechanics with total precision where one mistake = wipe, while highly skilled guilds can usually just power through stuff and make mistakes and not even notice. I'm sure the fight feels easier when you're never in any danger of dying due to one mistake wiping the raid.

My guild isn't one of the "just power through it" guilds. Honest. We have mostly 10-man gear, and some craftables. Sometimes we clear a boss, even rotface, with no deaths. Sometimes people die and we recover and pull it off. Sometimes people die and we wipe.


It's too much of a jump from Festergut to Rotface. No casual guild is going to be able to keep members for 10+ wipes on a single boss. They get bored and stop coming, they will hop to another guild, they will go PVP or they will pug and not be available. I don't think Blizzard really understands the mentality and skill level of the casual raider they are so desperately trying to push into raiding.

Some encounters are harder for some guilds than others, even if their general skill levels are comparable. Blizzard really can't account for this. You just have to sort out what is going wrong, and work on it.

Quinafoi
02-23-2010, 09:48 AM
You can lose forever in Arena and BG and still get fairly decent PVP gear (not the best though). You will never get gear from Rotface if you keep wiping on Rotface - and you will probably lose players and fallback to wiping on the first and second boss as you have to gear up new people. I don't think the comparison is applicable. Imagine if you every time you failed a quest, you lost XP until you fell back a level. That's what constant raid wiping is like for a casual guild.

If your 25-man guild can field the same 25 people every week over 40+ wipes, then it's certainly not casual at all. Imagine if half your raid was new people every week because you constantly are losing people and have to bring in undergeared people, that's casual.

Update - we've already lost 2 healers and our top 2 DPS (1 of whom said he refuses to spend gold on constant wiping), so tonight we start again with a new group.

Oh, so your definition of a casual raid is a PUG. If you're replacing half your raid every week, its a PUG. The problem is the raid itself, starting with the raid leader. Your attitude likely won't attract many good candidates.

Imagine if my raid was new...
You mean back when we were in Naxxramas in November/December of 2008?
Thaddius took like 3 weeks to get I think, and that was one hell of an annoying run back. The casuals simply didn't spend enough time grinding heroics and what not to gear themselves up enough to clear the place the first time in the door. Probably took around 30 or so attempts at him as well (fewer attempts because the run back was longer than the time to do an attempt). Still have a certain shaman who I don't think has ever made the jump to Thaddius... ever.

Over the course of this expansion, I've led 4 different raids and co-led another, several of which run multiple days (excluding random pugs I also often end up leading). And I'm not talking different content either, I'm talking completely different groups of people. You think you're the only raid leader out there who has problems keeping a group together? We have maybe about half the raid that was the same throughout the expansion. We had one attempt at directly sabataging the raid during lack of progress times in Ulduar (attempting to destroy the raid by stealing the remaining core players). We had times when a half dozen or so people stopped showing up in Ulduar on the second night due to lack of progress and ended up brining undergeared subs which only contributed to the lack of progress. When we did start progressing again, suddenly people wanted to come back, but many of them had already lost their spots.

Anyways... little newsflash for you.

Rotface is immune to stgeorge's whine.

Sorry, but Rotface isn't going to feel sorry for you. And neither will most of the people here. You came here asking for advice and got enough of it to write 10 encounter guides. Yet all you do is make excuses for yourself. Quit complaining and do something about it. If you have a problem with your raid wanting easy loot and unwilling to put in the effort for it, replace them with people who are willing to work at it. Though I don't think it will matter much if the raid leader themself has this exact same problem.

Bashal
02-23-2010, 09:55 AM
If you have a problem with your raid wanting easy loot and unwilling to put in the effort for it, replace them with people who are willing to work at it.

And if those replacements would be undergeared... help them get gear first.

stgeorge
02-23-2010, 12:43 PM
Oh, so your definition of a casual raid is a PUG. If you're replacing half your raid every week, its a PUG. The problem is the raid itself, starting with the raid leader. Your attitude likely won't attract many good candidates.

Imagine if my raid was new...
You mean back when we were in Naxxramas in November/December of 2008?
Thaddius took like 3 weeks to get I think, and that was one hell of an annoying run back. The casuals simply didn't spend enough time grinding heroics and what not to gear themselves up enough to clear the place the first time in the door. Probably took around 30 or so attempts at him as well (fewer attempts because the run back was longer than the time to do an attempt). Still have a certain shaman who I don't think has ever made the jump to Thaddius... ever.

Over the course of this expansion, I've led 4 different raids and co-led another, several of which run multiple days (excluding random pugs I also often end up leading). And I'm not talking different content either, I'm talking completely different groups of people. You think you're the only raid leader out there who has problems keeping a group together? We have maybe about half the raid that was the same throughout the expansion. We had one attempt at directly sabataging the raid during lack of progress times in Ulduar (attempting to destroy the raid by stealing the remaining core players). We had times when a half dozen or so people stopped showing up in Ulduar on the second night due to lack of progress and ended up brining undergeared subs which only contributed to the lack of progress. When we did start progressing again, suddenly people wanted to come back, but many of them had already lost their spots.

Anyways... little newsflash for you.

Rotface is immune to stgeorge's whine.

Sorry, but Rotface isn't going to feel sorry for you. And neither will most of the people here. You came here asking for advice and got enough of it to write 10 encounter guides. Yet all you do is make excuses for yourself. Quit complaining and do something about it. If you have a problem with your raid wanting easy loot and unwilling to put in the effort for it, replace them with people who are willing to work at it. Though I don't think it will matter much if the raid leader themself has this exact same problem.

Never said I was the raid leader - I'm just looking to help to get us through a rough spot. Everyone has been helpful and probably has been in this situation once or twice before. So thank you again everyone. Another thing you don't understand about casual guilds is that we don't throw away people because they don't play well or because they may not be paragons of pure unselfish raiding. That's what hardcore guilds do, we make do with what we've got - good players and bad players. Yes, it does mean we won't get to kill all the bosses.

I'm not asking for pity, I wanted help on Rotface and I'm happy to have received it. It'll be a long time before we get back to that point having to bring up 2 new healers again. Hopefully by the time we get there again, it's been nerfed or we'll overgear it or maybe Cataclysm will be out and we can enjoy the place at level 85.

Quinafoi
02-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Another thing you don't understand about casual guilds is that we don't throw away people because they don't play well or because they may not be paragons of pure unselfish raiding.

Our raid has what is called a reserved policy, meaning if you become a reserved member and maintain the reserved requirements, I am obligated to continue inviting you. So until such time as they fail to maintain the minimum requirements, within the raiding organization I am powerless to remove them.

Peter Gibbons: But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

The thing you don't understand about casual raids is you're not the only one out there.

casecase89
02-24-2010, 09:11 AM
I personally don't think the Rotface encounter is over tuned for 10man. My guild, which I am the main Tank/Raid leader of, have been into ICC for about 7-8 weeks now with 1 night in ICC a week. We got our first attempts in Last night and on our 3rd attempt we got him to 28%. Like most of the people have said here, the best thing you can do is make everyone understand the concept of, you need to be where the first infected person is, no excuse. Once you have that its moving out of the ooze explosion, which we haven't had a problem with last night.

jaykaywhy
02-25-2010, 03:05 PM
People are saying it's 12 seconds between mutated infections (felt a lot quicker, we would be dead in a minute with about 4-5 oozes out). It took 5 seconds for the first 2 oozes to merge if we made it that far (at which point the 2 dps waiting are taking 6k/second damage, and several times they were in the way of the slime spray or a slime pool formed underneath them). Maybe it's bad luck. 7 of the 10 attempts the first 2 with the oozes were healers, and they could not heal while trying to get the slimes to merge.

1 minute = 60 seconds / 5 oozes = 12 seconds per ooze; its not really pertinent to the discussion, but it does illustrate the feeling of overwhelmness is getting to you, as to the actual difficulty of the fight.

The off tank should already be in position by the time the fight starts. Everyone should know where the off-tank is and ready to run to him if they get infected. You know where the slime pools are going to form ( 4 corners of the room) and you have some time to move OUT of them as they're spilling.



We wound up getting a big ooze on 2 of the attempts, but the raid was half dead and the big ooze would just go to the middle both times and wipe everyone.

If the big ooze is going through the raid, it means either the Off-tank is not putting out enough threat to out-threat the healers, or he's kiting it too fast. If he's too far from the big slime, the big slime will try to cut through the raid to close the distance.[/quote]



Slime Spray is not "easily avoidable" - we had the raid run through the boss, but he would just turn and spray the raid anyway. I didn't understand it. The healers couldn't keep up, they were doing about 3000 HPS each. Maybe that's not enough, I don't know.

Even if people weren't avoiding the initial slime spray, if people are getting sprayed, they should know enough to MOVE. If everyone is stacked behind Rotface, he's ALWAYS going to face in the same direction to target Slime Spray. During the 1.5sec cast time, that's enough time for everyone to either move away, or someone to call it. DBM shows you when Slime Spray will be cast. Since its a channeled spell, even if people are caught in it, they should be aware enough to MOVE.



Less skilled guilds have to deal with these mechanics with total precision where one mistake = wipe, while highly skilled guilds can usually just power through stuff and make mistakes and not even notice. I'm sure the fight feels easier when you're never in any danger of dying due to one mistake wiping the raid.


That statement doesn't even make sense. You guys are NOT making one mistake. You're making mistake after mistake after mistake, and no guild, no matter their gear, can expect to survive that. Seeing as how you're not dealing with the mechanics correctly, how can you even tell the mechanics are what's wrong in this equation?

When my 10man team first downed Rotface, we did it with ToC10 and a month of first wing gear. It wasn't that impressive, but that's who the 10man is attuned for.



It's too much of a jump from Festergut to Rotface. No casual guild is going to be able to keep members for 10+ wipes on a single boss. They get bored and stop coming, they will hop to another guild, they will go PVP or they will pug and not be available. I don't think Blizzard really understands the mentality and skill level of the casual raider they are so desperately trying to push into raiding.

We'll just keep tooling about in the first wing.

That's reflective of YOUR personal story. My 10man team has been working on Sindragosa since that wing's release; one time spending 2 hours 9-manning it, just to get the mechanics of P3 naturally. If your raid members aren't dedicated enough to keep trying at it, then that really reflects their personal commitment to progression. Are they maximizing their efforts outside the raid? Are they reading strats, farming consumables, farming badges? If so, then they'll keep coming. If not, then they're dead weight anyway.

Instead of asking for the bar to be lowered, or seeking confirmation that its set too high, you should consider asking your raid to rise up to the challenge.

It's not impossible for a casual guild. It is impossible with baddies.


Raids are meant to be a challenge.

jaykaywhy
02-25-2010, 03:16 PM
Never said I was the raid leader - I'm just looking to help to get us through a rough spot. Everyone has been helpful and probably has been in this situation once or twice before. So thank you again everyone. Another thing you don't understand about casual guilds is that we don't throw away people because they don't play well or because they may not be paragons of pure unselfish raiding. That's what hardcore guilds do, we make do with what we've got - good players and bad players. Yes, it does mean we won't get to kill all the bosses.

I'm not asking for pity, I wanted help on Rotface and I'm happy to have received it. It'll be a long time before we get back to that point having to bring up 2 new healers again. Hopefully by the time we get there again, it's been nerfed or we'll overgear it or maybe Cataclysm will be out and we can enjoy the place at level 85.


Honestly, if you're having trouble with the coordination of Rotface, Blood Prince Council and Dreamwalker are going to make you tear your hair out.

I'm in a casual guild, man. Don't give me that "oh, you guys are all elitists, you don't understand the plight of the casual." I've wanted to kick some of the members of my 10man team because of their badness many MANY times, but I've refrained. I've had to put 1-3 spots every week for the past 3 months because there's always someone that can't make it.

If you really want to progress in ICC, then get yourself a good solid base to work with. 5-6 members who are good at their class and eager to see new bosses. People without a negative attitude; people who think "why is this so hard?" is not going to help you. The question should be "what can I do to improve?" If you just want to wait till 85 to see content, then save yourself the repair bill and just farm heroics and the spire wing all day.


It's supposed to be the final raid of Wrath of the Lich King expansion and, lore-wise, it ends the storyline started in 2001 with WarCraft 3 and the most famous villain in the WarCraft universe. It's not supposed to be a 10man heroic.

edit: if your top DPS and healers left because they're tired of wiping, then they obviously don't appreciate the same "casual guild" environment that you do.
so find people to replace them, however undergeared they may be, and acknowledge to them that certain nights are going to be a huge wipefest. i'd much rather take the undergeared person who's punctual and reliable versus the guy in all 277s who'll bail after the first night of wiping on a boss.

Liquidska
02-25-2010, 04:47 PM
Another thing you don't understand about casual guilds is that we don't throw away people because they don't play well or because they may not be paragons of pure unselfish raiding.

Why do you assume your the only casual guild? I raid with my real life friends. We raid 1 night a week for 3 hours and our roster always has at least 1 floating spot.

You just need to practice this fight. This fight is a lot like mimiron in Uldur. There is really nothing you can do but just pratice pratice pratice. There is a lot going on in this fight, if you truly do feel you have a solid group that under stands the fight and they are geared for the encounter. Then only thing that is left out is actually doing it. Patrice until you get it right, it's a hard fight. But just saying that it's "over tuned" and "blizz needs to fix this" isn't going to get you anywhere.

Mr.Winkle
02-26-2010, 11:11 AM
Clensing the debuff immediately is universally bad. The raid ends up taking significantly more damage. You never clense it immediately but rather wait until the person is out of the raid before clensing it. The aura, however small it may be, is more than double the damage if applied to the entire raid than that of the person with the debuff who has a healing reduction on them.


The person is always outside the raid immediately, why would you ever have them hang around in the raid group.

Quinafoi
02-26-2010, 12:25 PM
The person is always outside the raid immediately, why would you ever have them hang around in the raid group.

Sorry, but I'm uncertain how someone who should be grouped up right on the boss can immediately not be there when the boss applies an instant cast that randomly selects them as a target? The functional lower bound on player movement in reaction to a mechanic such as this is...

Human Reaction Time + Latency + (Player Movement Speed / Distance to Cover) = Time to Reach Safe Distance from Raid
Human Reaction Time + Latency = Time to Clense Instantly
All values in this summation are always greater than 0, therefore the sum of them is always greater than 0.
This is why functionally it's impossible for a player to be in two places at once. You can't be both in the proper position on the boss and instantly away from the boss and the rest of the raid.

They don't "hang around in the group". They have to get out of the group because thats where they were.

If you clense immediately... the difference between the two also has some importance.
(Player Movement Speed / Distance to Cover) = Time the Raid Takes Damage from the Ooze

That is the measure of how bad clensing the debuff immediately is (assuming human reaction time and latency of both players is identical). On 10 man... the Ooze aura ticking on the raid is four times the rate of damage done to the individual with the debuff. Even though they take 50% less healing, it requires double the healing to heal the aura on the raid because now it is doing damage to the entire raid except the kiter and the last person to run out, posted earlier. On 25 man these numbers would be even more severe.

I'm not entirely up to date on my quantum physics, but I think in World of Warcraft physics it is still impossible to be in two places at once. You can't be both on the boss and 10 yards away from the boss simultaneously (though with enough server lag I did once /dance with one of my bank alts that the server didn't despawn yet). There is time inbetween required to travel that distance.

Bashal
02-26-2010, 12:33 PM
While it's true that it may produce more overall healing needed, that damage is spread out among multiple players, and as long as the infected/cleansed party moves asap, the damage is very non-lethal, is easily dealt with, and prevents there from being any healing issues on the person who was infected (no healing recieved reduction). Mind you, we do this with 3 healers. If you were thinking of a 2-healer arrangement, I can see how that might be the feather that breaks the camel's back.

YMMV I suppose though; like I said, what works for one group doesn't always work for another. Cleansing right away (on 10-man) works incredibly well for my groups, which is why we do it.

Quinafoi
02-26-2010, 12:44 PM
If you clense it too fast, the person standing in fire may not realize they are standing in fire, thus reacting to mechanic slower as well and increasing raid damage further. Also, intentially spawning small oozes in the raid can lead to the big ooze being formed in the raid when the debuffs are applied faster. The aura of the big ooze is far more threatening... and so is the fact that it will probably turn and play whack-a-healer before the kiter can hit it.

Having oozes in the raid is bad, it increases the odds of additional problems being created as well.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 08:45 AM
I spoke to some people in a more successful 25-man guild (top 5 on the server) that is having success in 25-man (10/12).

They said that Rotface-10 is far more difficult on 10 than 25 and in their 3 10-man squads (composed of players in mostly ilvl 264 gear and TOGC 258 gear) only one of the squads gets past Rotface-10. Even overgearing it, they still wipe due to kiting healers or mechanics converging unfavorably. His observation is that Blizzard took the 25-man encounter and reduced the numbers slightly rather than evaluating if mechanics make sense. On the official forums, Rotface-10 has a thread every few days talking about how ridiculous it is.

His advice was to not bother with Rotface-10 until you are doing 50k+ raid DPS on Festergut-10 and that you need to have 2 healers (one of which must be a resto druid which we don't have) who could single heal the encounter if necessary. Neither of these will ever be a reality for us, so it sounds like ICC being accessible to casual guilds was a little unrealistic on Blizzard's part.

Bashal
03-01-2010, 09:18 AM
I spoke to some people in a more successful 25-man guild (top 5 on the server) that is having success in 25-man (10/12).

They said that Rotface-10 is far more difficult on 10 than 25 and in their 3 10-man squads (composed of players in mostly ilvl 264 gear and TOGC 258 gear) only one of the squads gets past Rotface-10. Even overgearing it, they still wipe due to kiting healers or mechanics converging unfavorably. His observation is that Blizzard took the 25-man encounter and reduced the numbers slightly rather than evaluating if mechanics make sense. On the official forums, Rotface-10 has a thread every few days talking about how ridiculous it is.

His advice was to not bother with Rotface-10 until you are doing 50k+ raid DPS on Festergut-10 and that you need to have 2 healers (one of which must be a resto druid which we don't have) who could single heal the encounter if necessary. Neither of these will ever be a reality for us, so it sounds like ICC being accessible to casual guilds was a little unrealistic on Blizzard's part.

We don't do 25's so I haven't seen the 25-man version of the encounter, but I'm going to have to disagree here. My guild (a) isn't uber leet, we're like 25th on progression or something on my realm for 10's; (b) doesn't outgear the encounter; (c) uses three healers; and (d) can reliably get rotface-10 down -- sometimes it takes a few tries, but we get him.

That RL you talked to has the approach of "outgear the encounter", which is a common theme for people who raid in 25's and also do 10's. It's an easy solution since they have access to gear that is .5 tiers higher than what drops in 10's. "Outgear the encounter" is not a strategy, just an inevitability for people who raid in 25's. It's a bit of a cop-out, to be honest, to claim that's necessary to beat rotface-10, when clearly it isn't.

Perhaps rotface 25 is too easy? ;)

Acidbaron
03-01-2010, 09:26 AM
Then sorry to say, those people will not kill rotface on heroic as what they are telling you boils down to;

"We honestly can't really handle the mechanics aswel, we just kill it cause we out gear it", which in my opinion is complete bullcrap. They are right about it being harder on 10 then 25. They are wrong aswel on having to use 2 healers and zerg it down before the oozes start to pop out fast.

I'm part of a social team, raiding twice a week and reaching the blood queen in a single night, but this isn't something that happend overnight nor do we outgear the place, We 1-2 shot rotface, yes you read that right. One shot. So you're really just looking for excuses to give up honestly, We wiped for hours untill we got it right on rotface.

The fight is all about raid awareness, rotface is a full tactical fight where you have to be aware about your surroundings and prioritize your actions, which again comes down to practice, practice and practice, As festergut is your gear check and rotface is your 'raid intelligence' check.

We use 3 healers on rotface we don't always have heroism and we kill it week in, week out.

So if you want to succeed stop trying to find justification for your whines, pick yourself and your raid team up and practice, see where you wipe and see how you can prevent it and go again. And keep doing that untill you get it right even if the first kill is messy just keep at it, take breaks on time and always go in with fresh heads and help each other forward.

Cause honestly what i am reading is not a 'casual/social' team issue, what i am reading in your post is a mentality issue, where once people hit a brick wall they want to sit down and set up a picknick waiting for it fall over preferably not on them, rather then taking a sledgehammer and get rid of it.


Now let's go over your original post and move past the "rotface is too hard!" mentality.

Is the Death knight being used actually tank specced and geared? If the answer is No, then there's your first issue since if he gets hit, he'll go splat.

Appoint a healer to dispelling, some people say not dispelling is the way to go but i find it too hard on the healers near the end due to the healing debuff.

Now what i read is your people not being able to spot the add tank fast enough and the forming of the first ooze taking too long.

One, try to make it so your off tank keeps marking himself (goes off if he gets the debuff) There are macros for that.
Two, the first person who gets the first small ooze, moves out and waits unless needing to move for the flood. You cannot outrun the small slime, trying to kite it is pointless, second person who gets it and just runs to that person. that should make it a fast painless proces.

There are a lot more hints and tips but to be honest, this isn't the first thread on this and the original post contains more then enough information for those willing to kill it and researching tactics and then tailoring it to your raid team is all part of that proces.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 09:36 AM
Just because a fight is hard, doesn't mean it's overtuned. Raiding isn't for everyone. If something as little as 10 wipes scares you, it's not for you. If you're upset by something so small then you haven't been raiding very long. Just because it is trivial to get tier 9 gear now, doesn't mean that everyone in it is ready for tier 10. You aren't running farm content and can't expect all your kills to only take an attempt or two. This is the highest level progression content.

"Good news everyone..."
stgeorge's whine crits Rotface for 0 damage.

Go do 10 man Firefighter. That's only tuned to 226 item level, clearly you can handle it right. I mean you're geared well enough to handle it so of course you should be able to right?

Bashal
03-01-2010, 09:53 AM
On the official forums, Rotface-10 has a thread every few days talking about how ridiculous it is.

Which is an example of why I usually stay away from the WoW forums.

There are some decent posts there, but by and large it is only a good source of misinformation and QQ.

mangaart1st
03-01-2010, 10:02 AM
I currently run 2 10 mans and raid lead the 25 man for my guild. I think the main thing about Rotface that is catching a lot of people is the return of fights where EVERYONE must be accountable for knowing the mechanics of the fight and executing them correctly. Does no one remember Terron Gorefiend back in BT. Guilds would instantly call for a wipe or would be wiped if certain players got called early for ghost duty. These players never bothered to learn how to do the ghost's or just didnt care assuming, "Hey I probably wont get picked out of 24 other people".

Well, thankfully for these types of people there haven't been to many fights where the individual person could very easily lead to a guaranteed wipe in WolK raiding, and could be "carried" through boss mechanics without a lot of hinderance to the group. Till ICC that is. Once your get passed the first 4 bosses in ICC almost all the bosses inside require people to execute the mechanics properly or almost assuredly causing a wipe.

Festgut: Not getting spores in the right places. (everyone can be spored)
Rotface: Not kiting your slime correctly. (everyone but the boss tank can be injected)
Blood Council: Everyone spreading out correctly for Empowered Shock (everyone gets targeted with the shock)
BQL: Not bitting before becoming MC'ed (everyone has the potential to be the first bitten, subseqently everyone will be biten aside from your tanks)
Professor Putricide: Not handling Gas Cloud/Green Slimes Correctly (Everyone by the abom and boss tank can be targeted by either)

I know there's some mechanics for Sindragosa and LK that everyone has to be aware of but they escape me atm. Is Rotface hard?, mechanics wise not really. Does Rotface allow for players to skimp on knowing the mechanics and be able to allow the rest of the group to carry them through?, not at all. If it makes those having difficulty with the fight feel any better. My main 10 man took 30 attempts for our first kill, my 2nd took roughly 10. Altogether, in 10 mans between my two groups i have a bout 80+ total attempts on rotface with about 10 total kills between them. Now tho, after EVERYONE has learned and has experience with the mechanics we one shot every week.

So TLDR: Make everyone accountable to learn the importance of fight mechanics and execution or your going to have to pray the RNG never selects those few that don't get picked for any of the mechanics.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 10:08 AM
Rotface is hard. Deal with it.

The people here can lecture you day and night about handling the mechanics correctly. We can't move your character out of the fire for you. Sooner or later you just have to get off your butt and do something about it. Quit complaining and quit trying to justify your failure. Your failure is no one else's fault. It's not Blizzard's fault. It's not the fault of people here or on any other forum. None of us have any impact on how your raid actually executes the fight. We aren't the ones playing it, you are.

Step one, admit you failed.
Step two, understand why you failed.
Step three, correct it.

If you're afraid of a fight just cause its hard, you'll never get any better. Quit complaining and get better.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Rotface is hard. Deal with it.

The people here can lecture you day and night about handling the mechanics correctly. We can't move your character out of the fire for you. Sooner or later you just have to get off your butt and do something about it. Quit complaining and quit trying to justify your failure. Your failure is no one else's fault. It's not Blizzard's fault. It's not the fault of people here or on any other forum. None of us have any impact on how your raid actually executes the fight. We aren't the ones playing it, you are.

Step one, admit you failed.
Step two, understand why you failed.
Step three, correct it.

If you're afraid of a fight just cause its hard, you'll never get any better. Quit complaining and get better.

The problem is it's disproportionately difficult compared to the raid up to that point. There needs to be a progression and going from 2-shotting the first 5 bosses to 20 wipes (and I see hundreds of other groups are having the same problem, so don't pretend it's an isolated problem) is not good raid design. The fact that this fight is far easier in 25-man shows there is something wrong here.

The skilled raiders can clear ICC-10 in 2 nights and then go wipe all they want in hard modes. Let the casual guilds work on ICC-10 at a reasonable pace without putting up impossible roadblocks like Rotface-10 - a roadblock which doesn't exist in ICC-25!

The problem is normal mode is too hard (past the first wing) and hard mode is too easy (judging by the blistering progress). Both raids are becoming boring to the groups they are intended for. It sounds simple to fix to me. Maybe we'll have to wait until Cataclysm.

Veldine
03-01-2010, 10:57 AM
The problem is it's disproportionately difficult compared to the raid up to that point. There needs to be a progression and going from 2-shotting the first 5 bosses to 20 wipes (and I see hundreds of other groups are having the same problem, so don't pretend it's an isolated problem) is not good raid design. The fact that this fight is far easier in 25-man shows there is something wrong here.

The skilled raiders can clear ICC-10 in 2 nights and then go wipe all they want in hard modes. Let the casual guilds work on ICC-10 at a reasonable pace without putting up impossible roadblocks like Rotface-10 - a roadblock which doesn't exist in ICC-25!

The problem is normal mode is too hard (past the first wing) and hard mode is too easy (judging by the blistering progress). Both raids are becoming boring to the groups they are intended for. It sounds simple to fix to me. Maybe we'll have to wait until Cataclysm.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. There are numerous examples of casual guilds clearing Rotface in this thread and yet you seem to champion the cause that he's too hard for casual guilds? Out of curiosity, what is your raiding history?

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Rotface is hard. Deal with it.

The people here can lecture you day and night about handling the mechanics correctly. We can't move your character out of the fire for you. Sooner or later you just have to get off your butt and do something about it. Quit complaining and quit trying to justify your failure. Your failure is no one else's fault. It's not Blizzard's fault. It's not the fault of people here or on any other forum. None of us have any impact on how your raid actually executes the fight. We aren't the ones playing it, you are.

Step one, admit you failed.
Step two, understand why you failed.
Step three, correct it.

If you're afraid of a fight just cause its hard, you'll never get any better. Quit complaining and get better.

Also, you can clearly see I admitted to failure in the first post - why would I post here otherwise? I understand why we failed - the encounter is improperly tuned and too hard for our group. We can't correct it because the solutions are: to overgear it, or to overskill it. Since we continually lose players any time we wipe excessively, we are stuck continually gearing up people on the first few bosses. Once we gear those people up and hit a roadblock, they take off to another guild (often one of the top tier guilds). Casual raiders nowadays hop from guild to guild at a drop of a hat. I know you clearly don't have to deal with this, so why act like it's so easy to solve?

You should consider yourselves lucky to be with players who put up with 30+ wipes and stick around. It's not common outside of the top tier of guilds (which I suspect is what most of you here enjoy).

Bashal
03-01-2010, 11:02 AM
The problem is it's disproportionately difficult compared to the raid up to that point.

The problem is unless they make everything really easy (relative to the more hardcore guild's ability), then there will always be some boss that more casual players will hit a brick wall with, and will make the same argument you are now.

The fact of the matter is: not everyone will full-clear ICC in normal mode. Due to changes in their design philosophy, more people than ever could have before will, though. Take for example the original Naxxramas... as I understand it, basically nobody saw more than a boss or two in the place.

The real difference here, is not that you and others have hit some brick wall somewhere, but that you are (apparently) unwilling to tough it out a bit. Wiping 10 times, 20 times, whatever on a boss is not a big deal as long as you manage to keep getting closer to a kill. Recognising when people are getting tired of wiping on a boss and calling it for the night is also important.

My guild is somewhere in the middle of the road. From your point of view, we may look like some kind of uber guild. Sites like guildox say no. We hit brick walls and eventually get past them. Sometimes we don't clear everything before the next tier of content comes out, and some stuff gets left undone due to lack of interest. I'm OK with this for the most part.

This is what raiding is. Its been designed for people who are willing to look at the way they play and make constructive improvements to overcome a challenge. "Stepping up their game", as it's commonly called. You are currently being faced with a challenge and aren't handling it well. That has to do with the mentality of you and the people in your raid; I'm willing to bet anything you want that most if not all of those folks in your raid could improve enough to be able to get that boss down, they just don't want to.

And if they don't want to, that's fine. That's their decision and they aren't in my raid. But that is not and (I hope) never will be the standard that Blizzard bases their boss encounters on.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. There are numerous examples of casual guilds clearing Rotface in this thread and yet you seem to champion the cause that he's too hard for casual guilds? Out of curiosity, what is your raiding history?

Show me numbers. I say that most guilds are not beating Rotface-10. World of Logs shows 85% fail rate across 20000+ samples. These are people who are submitting logs. I think the actual is much worse since most casuals won't upload their fails.

Here's my history:

Vanilla - never raided
BC - only Kara (we could only get past Attumen once the 3.0 nerf came in)

Never tried any hard modes. We are a core of about 5 people who have "stuck it out" and we continually bring in 5 people to pad out the 10-man and they never end up sticking around.

Naxx-10 - cleared this instance (this was a good instance and we enjoyed it a lot - this is what all "normal" raids should be like)
Ulduar-10 - killed FL, XT, Razor, Kolo and Auriya - no Iron Council, Ignis or keeper kills (Hodir and Freya wiped us many times like Rotface, and we got stuck losing raiders every week that we wiped 10+ times on Hodir or Freya)
TOC-10 - no faction champion kills (same deal - continually gearing people up on first 2 bosses only to lose them)
ICC-10 - first wing + Festergut - 20 wipes on Rotface, never tried the other wings.

We lost some of the DPS & heals from our last Rotface attempt, so now we're back to working on Saurfang and it looks like we'll need to find more people again next week.

I don't have any agenda - I just want our guild to enjoy ICC the same way you guys are and maybe see a final boss for once like we did with KT (which was a great experience for our guild - we want to get back to having fun in a raid and sorry, but wiping a million times is not fun).

Bashal
03-01-2010, 11:21 AM
I just want our guild to enjoy ICC the same way you guys are and maybe see a final boss for once like we did with KT (which was a great experience for our guild - we want to get back to having fun in a raid and sorry, but wiping a million times is not fun).

Part of that fun -- for many of us -- is finally killing that boss that wiped us so damn many times, then going back next week and doing it again, and marveling at how much easier it was the next time around. "Wow, look how much we improved!"

If people just keep doing the same thing over and over and don't try to figure out what they were doing wrong, that's just smashing your fists uselessly at a brick wall, and I'm not suprised that they quit.

The raid leader, someone in that group needs to be able to see what's wiping you guys and pick something specific to improve on. If people see they are getting closer to a win, they'll stay, especially if that progress is pointed out. You keep wiping at the 1-minute mark, so it sounds like you're just going in doing the same exact thing each time and somehow expecting different results. Do you see the problem with that?

You have 5 people who'll stick around? I'd call that a good start. Try to find five more, is my advice. They're out there somewhere. They may even be in your guild currently.

Again, part of making this successful is recognizing the mood of the raid and calling it early if you need to, go do something else instead, whether its in ICC or somewhere else. Don't burn the raiders out.

Veldine
03-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Those worldoflogs ratings are skewed tho. ie. A guild may have wiped on Rotface like 3 times and and killed him on the 4th try. They don't show the percent of guilds that have downed Rotface. I think our guild uploaded a couple of nights of wipes on rotface (like 16 in one night or something like that).

Only reason I asked for your raiding history is that there are always c***block fights in every raid. (ie. vael and patchwerk in bc, etc). Just can't imagine someone complaining about an encounter with only 10 wipes compared to those fights (and I am in a casual guild itself...most of us raid at most 5 hours a week these days)

Theotherone
03-01-2010, 11:38 AM
Also, you can clearly see I admitted to failure in the first post - why would I post here otherwise? I understand why we failed - the encounter is improperly tuned and too hard for our group. We can't correct it because the solutions are: to overgear it, or to overskill it. Since we continually lose players any time we wipe excessively, we are stuck continually gearing up people on the first few bosses. Once we gear those people up and hit a roadblock, they take off to another guild (often one of the top tier guilds). Casual raiders nowadays hop from guild to guild at a drop of a hat. I know you clearly don't have to deal with this, so why act like it's so easy to solve?

You should consider yourselves lucky to be with players who put up with 30+ wipes and stick around. It's not common outside of the top tier of guilds (which I suspect is what most of you here enjoy).

Actually, players who stick with it are not limited to top tier guilds. I'm in a very good guild, but we're not getting any world firsts, nor do we try too (we're mostly adults who have work and family that get in the way); we're composed of a core of people who came from some top raiding guilds (I'm not one of them, but I really enjoy raiding), we like to raid, we like each other and we'll endue wipe after wipe until we "get it"; we understand progression. Seems you need people who understand progression. Also with the people leaving, if you ain't beating the fight with them, you ain't gonna miss them.

As for us, we're still working on Rottface too. This past Tuesday people were getting tired of the wipes so when the trash respawned (yet again), we took a break to get a look a Dreamwalker; ran the gauntlet without issue, got our Frost emblem and took three or four shots at Dreamwalker; it's is a fun fight, especially for a hunter (I live to kite adds) and was a nice break from Rottface. We haven't gotten back to Rottface this week with people's work schedules getting in the way; but sometimes a change of scenery is good and I feel we'll get him this week.

If it's all easy mode, it's not fun. Come on don't you look forward to that collective "Yeeeeaaaaah, we did it. Good job everybody" when the boss finally goes down. I know it's just a stupid game, but that's a great feeling of accomplishment and is almost better then the loot. I stress "almost" :)

Bashal
03-01-2010, 11:42 AM
We can't correct it because the solutions are: to overgear it, or to overskill it.

Or to attempt to apply some of the large volumes of advice which has been provided to you. You aren't hearing the answer you want, which apparently is "yeah it's too hard" and are disregarding what we've been saying.

atcq
03-01-2010, 11:42 AM
We are a core of about 5 people who have "stuck it out" and we continually bring in 5 people to pad out the 10-man and they never end up sticking around.

The problem isn't the encounter then. It's your raid, or lack of it. Effectively, you're pugging Rotface.

You need to find another good 5 people to add to your core, and find a way to keep them.

Selyndia
03-01-2010, 12:24 PM
Also, you can clearly see I admitted to failure in the first post - why would I post here otherwise? I understand why we failed - the encounter is improperly tuned and too hard for our group. We can't correct it because the solutions are: to overgear it, or to overskill it. Since we continually lose players any time we wipe excessively, we are stuck continually gearing up people on the first few bosses. Once we gear those people up and hit a roadblock, they take off to another guild (often one of the top tier guilds). Casual raiders nowadays hop from guild to guild at a drop of a hat. I know you clearly don't have to deal with this, so why act like it's so easy to solve?

You should consider yourselves lucky to be with players who put up with 30+ wipes and stick around. It's not common outside of the top tier of guilds (which I suspect is what most of you here enjoy).

A few things…

First, I am not in a top guild, we do alright, but we weren’t people clearing Ulduar hard modes, or killed Anub ToGC 25. In fact, a substantially larger portion of the population here are about where I am and you are than you think. We are basically a run of the mill, middle of the road raiding guild. Rotface took us a long time to learn. So did Thaddius 25 and Sapphiron 10 in Naxx, and so did a lot of Ulduar including Yogg, Thorim 25, Freya and Mimiron 10. ToGC brickwalled us on Beasts for a VERY long time, and we’re currently having issues with Sindragosa. Every guild will have its own bosses (Similar to how everyone has their own El Guapo) that cause them issues, how you handle that is what makes or breaks a guild.

Second, never blame the encounter for your wipes. We made the exact same mistake with Rotface 10. We initially thought it was “Stupidly tuned” and in an awkward place in progression. The thing is: it wasn’t. What it is is a test to see if you have the coordination, movement and communication necessary to do other bosses. If you can’t kill Rotface, then Professor Putricide and Blood Queen are going to brickwall you just as badly. Know what happened when we figured out a strategy for Rotface and refined it? We started one shotting the stupid thing; but it doesn’t mean you can be lax, because it can quickly cause a wipe with those inattentive.

Third, nearly 60% of guilds that are raiding ICC 10 have killed Rotface. 60% is an enormous amount of guilds to be clearing content that had originally been “reserved” for only the top 5% and is a far cry from being “Inaccessible” to casual players.

Fourth, all guilds are constantly recruiting. This is not just the “Casual Raid Guilds” lament, but something all guilds, regardless of progression must constantly be on top of. Take a peek over at wowprogress and see how many people join and leave the top guilds on the various servers on a regular basis. One of the absolute hardest lessons for early raiding guilds to learn is that they must constantly recruit or else their roster stagnates and they might lose raids due to one or two people.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 12:27 PM
The problem isn't the encounter then. It's your raid, or lack of it. Effectively, you're pugging Rotface.

You need to find another good 5 people to add to your core, and find a way to keep them.

It's not completely pugged, we try to fill up the last 5 from within the guild. Usually we end up pugging 1 or 2 spots from outside. When we make good progress on the first few bosses, they want guild invites. When we hit a roadblock, they are gone. It's been like that since Ulduar. We had a really vibrant guild during the Naxx days, sometimes having 15+ signups and we eventually ran Naxx-25 with another guild and clearing that. It was the most fun I've ever had as a raider honestly. I could see why people enjoyed raiding.

Since then, it's been a slog. The guild fell apart after the first couple of weeks of wiping in Ulduar, and we pressed on with the core group + a few steady raiders until we got to the keepers and the beginning of the 10-15 wipe nights. This went on for a couple of weeks and then finally people starting dropping in droves and moving to other guilds who were progressing further. It's been like that ever since and raiding is not much fun when you're constantly stuck on the same bosses (or even better, moving backwards in progress).

If you have more than 10+ people ready to go every week and you can bring the same players then you are not casual - you might not be hardcore, but you are certainly not a casual guild. There is definitely a middle tier of efficient raiders who are very well skilled and don't make many mistakes (they visit communities like TankSpot & EJ) and can field a consistent team every week. You make constant progress and you probably never move backwards on bosses once you get them down once.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 12:40 PM
Step one, admit you failed.
Step two, understand why you failed.
Step three, correct it.


Also, you can clearly see I admitted to failure in the first post - why would I post here otherwise? I understand why we failed - the encounter is improperly tuned and too hard for our group. We can't correct it because the solutions are: to overgear it, or to overskill it.

I see step one there. I don't see step two or step three.

You say it is impossible, there are plenty of people that have killed it. Last I checked I didn't have MacGuyver, Chuck Norris, or Mr. T. in my raid and we managed to kill it. You want impossible, I remember a bugged patch back when Alar phase two would meteor every 10-15 seconds. That was a fun bug where you would have over 50 adds before the fight was over, and guess what, some people still beat the encounter even with that bug. That was a bug which caused the encounter to be insanely difficult, however still not impossible. They did correct that bug in a hotfix half way through the week.

Rotface is hard, but far from impossible. It may be impossible for you however if you can't correct your attitude. Again, it is no one elses fault other than your own that you can't complete the encounter. You can't blame Blizzard for releasing an encounter you can't do, you didn't even make it half way through tier 8 and you think you've developed the raiding skills to clear tier 10. Honestly, tier 10 is still a joke compared to the classic Temple of Ahn'Qiraj and Naxxramas. You want hard, those were hard. Rotface is a pushover compared to that (if you could kill two bosses in Naxxramas at level 60, your raid was probably in the top 3 for the server).

Step one, admit you failed. Complete.
Step two, understand why you failed.

Blaming Blizzard for designing a well tuned encounter, does not constitute as understanding where you failed. You can never understand your failure if all you do is blame others. Until you complete step two, you can not move on to step three. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Step three, correct it.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 12:48 PM
If you have more than 10+ people ready to go every week and you can bring the same players then you are not casual - you might not be hardcore, but you are certainly not a casual guild.

Well there's a new definition of casual. Casual player is now defined by the number of people on their friends list. If you have more than 5, you're not casual.

All the hardcore players must spend a lot of time on facebook and other social networking sites. Because if casual is defined by number of friends you have, hardcore must also be defined that way. What's the threshold there? 1000 friends?

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 12:50 PM
Third, nearly 60% of guilds that are raiding ICC 10 have killed Rotface. 60% is an enormous amount of guilds to be clearing content that had originally been “reserved” for only the top 5% and is a far cry from being “Inaccessible” to casual players.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I need to see stats on this.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Icecrown_Citadel/Rotface/

Here's the rundown to save you a trip. Only Rotface and Blood Princes have a lower 25-man wipe %. Both of them have mechanics that severely punish the 10-man raid.

Look at Rotface's 10-man wipes compared to the other 10-man bosses, far higher than any other boss. That says the whole story right there.

Boss: Total 10-man wipes, 10-man wipe %, Total 25-man wipes, 25-man wipe %

Marrowgar: 30k wipes - 31%, 42k wipes - 36%
Deathwhisper: 34k wipes - 33%, 67k wipes - 47%
Saurfang: 53k wipes - 45%, 73k wipes - 49%
Festergut: 70k wipes - 60%, 192k wipes - 81%
Rotface: 174k wipes - 83%, 165k wipes - 80% -- NOTE: 25-man is more successful than 10-man!
Putricide: 98k wipes - 81%, 203k wipes - 92%
Princes: 90k wipes - 82%, 94k wipes - 77% -- another poorly tuned 10-man encounter
Bloodqueen: 45k wipes - 73%, 142k wipes - 93%
Valithria: 40k wipes - 78%, 82k wipes - 87%
Sindragosa: 68k wipes - 92%, 61k wipes - 92%
Lich King: 68k wipes - 98%, 74k wipes - 99%

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 12:53 PM
I see step one there. I don't see step two or step three.

You say it is impossible, there are plenty of people that have killed it. Last I checked I didn't have MacGuyver, Chuck Norris, or Mr. T. in my raid and we managed to kill it. You want impossible, I remember a bugged patch back when Alar phase two would meteor every 10-15 seconds. That was a fun bug where you would have over 50 adds before the fight was over, and guess what, some people still beat the encounter even with that bug. That was a bug which caused the encounter to be insanely difficult, however still not impossible. They did correct that bug in a hotfix half way through the week.

Rotface is hard, but far from impossible. It may be impossible for you however if you can't correct your attitude. Again, it is no one elses fault other than your own that you can't complete the encounter. You can't blame Blizzard for releasing an encounter you can't do, you didn't even make it half way through tier 8 and you think you've developed the raiding skills to clear tier 10. Honestly, tier 10 is still a joke compared to the classic Temple of Ahn'Qiraj and Naxxramas. You want hard, those were hard. Rotface is a pushover compared to that (if you could kill two bosses in Naxxramas at level 60, your raid was probably in the top 3 for the server).

Step one, admit you failed. Complete.
Step two, understand why you failed.

Blaming Blizzard for designing a well tuned encounter, does not constitute as understanding where you failed. You can never understand your failure if all you do is blame others. Until you complete step two, you can not move on to step three. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Step three, correct it.

Again, you fail to understand that I am not alone. If you're doing AQ and Naxx at level 60, you are not casual. Your rudeness doesn't help your cause also - but I can see from your posting history that you are rude to everyone so I'm not going to take it personally. Have a nice life.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 12:56 PM
Marrowgar: 30k wipes - 31%, 42k wipes - 36%
Deathwhisper: 34k wipes - 33%, 67k wipes - 47%
Saurfang: 53k wipes - 45%, 73k wipes - 49%
Festergut: 70k wipes - 60%, 192k wipes - 81%
Rotface: 174k wipes - 83%, 165k wipes - 80% -- NOTE: 25-man is more successful than 10-man!
Putricide: 98k wipes - 81%, 203k wipes - 92%
Princes: 90k wipes - 82%, 94k wipes - 77% -- another poorly tuned 10-man encounter
Bloodqueen: 45k wipes - 73%, 142k wipes - 93%
Valithria: 40k wipes - 78%, 82k wipes - 87%
Sindragosa: 68k wipes - 92%, 61k wipes - 92%
Lich King: 68k wipes - 98%, 74k wipes - 99%


Here is another piece of fortune cookie wisdom for you.

How many times other people wipe, has nothing to do with how many times you wipe. Some raids wipe 50 times on a boss. Some raids wipe 2 times on a boss. Quit trying to compare yourself to others, your problem is in your group. You have to focus on your group to correct it. I had a similar issue in my 25 man raid where one of the captains was looking at stats for other raids. Other raids wiped 50 times before they killed this boss. I basically had to tell the captain to shut it. How good or bad someone else does has no impact on how well we do. The same raid we were comparing to, we beat Deathbringer Saurfang in half the attempts and actually advised the other group how to improve their technique.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 12:59 PM
Again, you fail to understand that I am not alone. If you're doing AQ and Naxx at level 60, you are not casual. Your rudeness doesn't help your cause also - but I can see from your posting history that you are rude to everyone so I'm not going to take it personally. Have a nice life.

You came here asking for advice. You ignore it. All you do is make excuses for yourself. I'm rude to people who think they are entitled to something which they are not. You think you're entitled trivial content. Raiding is a priviledge, not a right. If people aren't willing to work at bettering themselves, no amount of advice offered will make any difference.

Bashal
03-01-2010, 01:03 PM
...There is definitely a middle tier of efficient raiders who are very well skilled and don't make many mistakes (they visit communities like TankSpot & EJ) and can field a consistent team every week. You make constant progress and you probably never move backwards on bosses once you get them down once.

You seem to have come here with certain impressions -- certain beliefs -- which are unfounded.

My guild makes mistakes in raids, the raid wiping kind. I've made more than my share of them.

My guild's raiding teams are not 100% static. People's availability changes every few months. Some people vanish into a black hole, never to be seen again. Some people leave because we aren't full clearing X instance.

We've even had a raid crippled to the point where we can no longer down certain bosses. We fixed this.

All of the problems you have listed: retention, lack of coordination, lack of patience, these are all run-of-the-mill issues that every guild, every guild except for "we are a family-oriented leveling guild, we have 2 bank tabs and a tabard" has to deal with.

Let me tell you what I'm hearing from the short history you've given us: You had a heyday back with naxx. Things were good, but people got complacent. Then things got a little harder in ulduar (as it should be!), you made progress but it wasn't the lolgearfarm they had become used to. They started ditching you. It continued to slowly go downhill from there.

You can lament it, or you can fix it.

Bashal
03-01-2010, 01:16 PM
...
Rotface: 174k wipes - 83%, 165k wipes - 80% -- NOTE: 25-man is more successful than 10-man!
...
Princes: 90k wipes - 82%, 94k wipes - 77% -- another poorly tuned 10-man encounter
...

Rotface has a 3% difference in failure rate between 10 and 25-man and you find this troublesome? Setting aside for the moment that this is only what people have chosen to upload and report, a 3% difference is basically no difference at all. If out of 100 tries, I wipe a whopping 3 additional times more than expected, that is easily attributable to bad luck, as opposed to the tuning of the encounter.

Princes: a 5% difference. Same as above.

These statistics don't back up your case in the slightest.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 01:49 PM
Rotface has a 3% difference in failure rate between 10 and 25-man and you find this troublesome? Setting aside for the moment that this is only what people have chosen to upload and report, a 3% difference is basically no difference at all. If out of 100 tries, I wipe a whopping 3 additional times more than expected, that is easily attributable to bad luck, as opposed to the tuning of the encounter.

Princes: a 5% difference. Same as above.

These statistics don't back up your case in the slightest.

That might be true with a low numbers of sample, but the more samples you have, the more rigid these % become and therefore begin to show anomalies more accurately. Is 3% of your salary worth haggling over? Maybe your boss would love to hear that -3% and 3% is the same to you come time for raises. :)

But to say there is absolutely nothing there at all is being a little insincere. The huge number of 10-man Rotface wipes compared to the other bosses means nothing? Or that Rotface just happens to be 1 of 2 bosses with this discrepancy? The other boss being one that requires 3 tanks, which is more punishing for a 10-man than a 25-man?

I think my fate has been sealed here and you are all set against me already. The groupthink here is pretty thick and I've never seen so many people be upset at a compliment (that you are all great raiders and just refuse to acknowledge it) just to prove a point. It's kind of like what Ghostcrawler said. People have no idea just how good the elite players are until they see what they can do. The gap between them and you guys (approximately 10X according to GC) is the same gap between you guys and people like me and my guild (10X). I have no problem saying the elite players are 100X better than I am, why do you have a problem being 10X better? Food for thought.

There are 3 levels of raids already:

10-man
10-man heroic/25-man
25-man heroic

Let us have 10-man and you guys can have your 10-man heroic/25-man and the best-of-the-best can have 25-man heroics. I think this is what Blizzard wants to do also, but they are just not executing it very well.

Bashal
03-01-2010, 01:55 PM
But to say there is absolutely nothing there at all is being a little insincere. The huge number of 10-man Rotface wipes compared to the other bosses means nothing? Or that Rotface just happens to be 1 of 2 bosses with this discrepancy? The other boss being one that requires 3 tanks, which is more punishing for a 10-man than a 25-man?

I'm saying the results are so close that the difference is insignificant.

You don't understand statistics. I wouldn't rely on those stats to prove anything, really. It's called a margin of error. The reported success/failure rate does not necessarily match the actual success/failure rate, which would be a combination of what was and what was not reported.

You also don't know how many unreported attempts there are relative to the reported attempts. What if there were 100,000 unreported attempts? 500,000? And how would those unreported attempts skew the logs? Neither of us can know.

Even if those statistics are 100% brutally accurate, a three percent difference in difficulty is so close that it is meaningless. I'm going to say it again: 3 more wipes out of a hundred compared to 25-mans is nothing. A blip on the radar.

We aren't haggling over 3% of my salary. Stick to the point, please.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 02:02 PM
You seem to have come here with certain impressions -- certain beliefs -- which are unfounded.

My guild makes mistakes in raids, the raid wiping kind. I've made more than my share of them.

My guild's raiding teams are not 100% static. People's availability changes every few months. Some people vanish into a black hole, never to be seen again. Some people leave because we aren't full clearing X instance.

We've even had a raid crippled to the point where we can no longer down certain bosses. We fixed this.

All of the problems you have listed: retention, lack of coordination, lack of patience, these are all run-of-the-mill issues that every guild, every guild except for "we are a family-oriented leveling guild, we have 2 bank tabs and a tabard" has to deal with.

Let me tell you what I'm hearing from the short history you've given us: You had a heyday back with naxx. Things were good, but people got complacent. Then things got a little harder in ulduar (as it should be!), you made progress but it wasn't the lolgearfarm they had become used to. They started ditching you. It continued to slowly go downhill from there.

You can lament it, or you can fix it.

You see, I didn't consider Naxx to be a "lolgearfarm". You do because it was so easy for you, but it was challenging for us. But no boss in there took more than 5 wipes, and we would generally see some improvement with each wipe. Every single raid must be a lolgearfarm for you then since you do a lot better in them than we do.

With Rotface we wipe 20 times and the same thing happens every single time, the oozes come too fast, he turns to spray the raid after they've moved, he spawns slime pools under the offtank every time, he injects a healer every time we wiped, the game refuses to merge 2 small oozes, the game refuses to merge big ooze with small ooze. Sorry, but this is too much RNG. Things have gotten so fast and frantic you can't even tell what happened.

Saurfang is a great encounter. We wiped several times until we could see what was causing the blood power, and we were able to correct it and get better each time until we got it (5 wipes max). This doesn't happen with Rotface. The numbers on World of Logs bear out a huge discrepancy in the number of wipes on Rotface.

I am more confident now that this will get fixed but it will be a while before I can see it for myself.

Bashal
03-01-2010, 02:04 PM
You see, I didn't consider Naxx to be a "lolgearfarm". You do because it was so easy for you, but it was challenging for us.


It challenged us while we learned the fights. Farming it afterwards became easy. And you fared better than my guild, then: we wiped more than 5 times on some bosses.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm saying the results are so close that the difference is insignificant.

You don't understand statistics. I wouldn't rely on those stats to prove anything, really. It's called a margin of error. The reported success/failure rate does not necessarily match the actual success/failure rate, which would be a combination of what was and what was not reported.

You also don't know how many unreported attempts there are relative to the reported attempts. What if there were 100,000 unreported attempts? 500,000? And how would those unreported attempts skew the logs? Neither of us can know.

Even if those statistics are 100% brutally accurate, a three percent difference in difficulty is so close that it is meaningless. I'm going to say it again: 3 more wipes out of a hundred compared to 25-mans is nothing. A blip on the radar.

We aren't haggling over 3% of my salary. Stick to the point, please.

Yet there it is - 3% more on 25-man than 10-man. 90k more wipes than any other boss. The numbers don't fit your point, so you decide it's irrelevant (that must mean you never lose an argument). The fact remains, more people wipe on Rotface 10-man than the "more difficult" 25-man version. Please provide any information you have that proves your point and I'd be happy to consider it and change my position if warranted.

And I feel bad that you can't take a joke - don't take things so seriously, we're just having a civil discussion.

Bashal
03-01-2010, 02:20 PM
I see how you're trying to look at this now, and I'll tell you my interpretation of it.

The boss is a coordination check. People get their ducks in a row, clear the boss, and have an easier time on the later bosses -- which also require more coordination than before -- because they got themselves properly coordinated. Again, assuming that the reports are in some way reflective of the actual, unknown number of tries on all bosses.

And I don't see how your comparison was a joke. I took it for a bad attempt at disregarding what I was saying.

And I think I'm done with this thread.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 02:21 PM
It challenged us while we learned the fights. Farming it afterwards became easy. And you fared better than my guild, then: we wiped more than 5 times on some bosses.

Well, to be honest, we didn't get into Naxx until March of 2009, and there were many videos and strategies out already and players who were able to come into our raid and show us the mechanics. It was probably a lot more difficult doing it when Wrath first came out in November/December with little information available and not a lot of people familiar with the mechanics. We didn't kill the end-wing bosses until a couple of months later, but people were itching to get into Ulduar instead of getting more gear out of Naxx and those same people were the first to leave when Ulduar got too tough

Hodir was the end of Ulduar for us - wiped at the first frozen blows every single time (around 10% in), just an instant raid wipe. This was with everyone in 2 pieces of frost resist gear that the raid leader bought for everyone with his own gold. Still half the raid stopping showing up after 2 straight nights of wiping.

Quinafoi
03-01-2010, 03:09 PM
You do because it was so easy for you, but it was challenging for us.

You really believe that you're the first person to ever have to actually work to receive their rewards. We spent three weeks working on Thaddius in 25 man (30+ attemtps). If anything the main difference between you and the rest of us is that we didn't give up after 10 attempts, we kept working at it and got our kill on Rotface after 40 attempts.

Just because we did it sooner than you does not mean we did any less work than you, in fact we probably worked harder than you had to because things get progressively easier over time.

Fledern
03-01-2010, 03:26 PM
OK, for some reason i still believe you're not beyond recovery so i'll attempt one more time.

IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD!!!

Rotface is a hard encounter yes, but nowhere near hard. World of Logs reports is nowhere near a good statistic for measuring encounter difficulty. If you want a more accurate presentation, try wowprogress.com. Here's the link: http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier10_10 . That link says 58.75% of guilds have killed Rotface 10. It lists which guilds, when, etc. About as accurate as you can get. (For comparison, 91% got saurfang, 75% got Festergut). Definitely within the realm of doable.

About 10man being harder than 25man. Trust me that's not true. High-end 25man raiding guilds are used to having one or two people make mistakes during an encounter. And there are 23-24 others to cover up that mistake. When they go into a 10man setting, that single mistake looks like harder to recover from for them. On the other hand, for most casual guilds, 25man is way more difficult because you have 15 more potential fuckups waiting to happen. Wowprogress says, only 28% managed rotface on 25man. (that could be because there are less 25man raiders out there too. Aint statistics a bitch :P)

Now please take the following words as from someone in a somewhat similar atmosphere. We are a casual guild that only kicks people for offensive behaivor, ninjaing or cheating. Otherwise, if you're in, you stay in. Our raids therefore are formed from who we have. BUT.

a) Raid composition is important. I'm not saying micromanage all the buffs you can get, align with the stars or anything. But if you go with a 3 druid, 3 warrior team like we did last week, you WILL have problems, even if everyone plays well. Try to have the most basic buffs for example. Even if you dont have a paladin, you can get a gimped version of kings through leatherworking drums. No priest? runescroll of fortitude. No druid? mark of the wild is availble through some other thing (was in inscription?). Make sure you have some sort of replenishment (shadowpriest, survival hunter, demo? lock, retri pala). Stuff like that. http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/ is a very good tool to use.

b) You have too many of a certain class and none of some other required class? Welcome to the world of casual raiding. The answer? Recruit. And never stop. Keep them coming. Dont worry, the assholes will either adapt to your atmoshpere or leave of their own free will. What will happen is, you will be able to divide the core team you have into two groups, have them both decked out in decent raid composition. There will be some competition for spots too, that keeps people on their toes.

c) Change your "we cant do this" attitude. Actually this should be the first thing you do. It's the primary step to planning the success trip. You can. You really can. But you must WANT to in the first place. Weeks of wiping, followed by people leaving can drag down morale. Suck it up, get back on the horse. Evaluate your crew and how long it'll take that crew to understand the mechanics of the fight.

d) Distill the fight into MAX 3 bullet points. Those 3 points can be different for different jobs in the raid. That's ok. But if you whisper somebody 3 simple lines to follow, then you can hold them accountable. They still need to know all of the fight for a smooth kill but at the worst you can do a "Rotface for dummies" and make everybody learn their 3 jobs.

e) Keep your cool. Just one person keeping their cool can make a huge difference in a hectic fight. When doing heroic 25man Worms in ToGC, our 2 tanks died with only the 3rd left up. Everybody was thinking "oh another wipe" while i calmly told the remaining tank to tank the fixed worm and the dps to continue doing their job. We got the kill. Me being cool at that second was what saved the raid. Of course for all that calm to come through, you need proper ventrilo discipline, ie nobody else should be speaking unnecessarily.

Now, for some tips for the rotface fight:

1) Mark your ooze kiter. I prefer the orange circle. It's highly visible and deadly boss mods doesnt use it for this fight. Very funny but people seem to be missing a gigantic green blob running about but can perfectly pick out a small orange circle.

2) Tell everyone to zoom out to max. They need to be able to see the whole room to know where to run.

3) Assign a single dispeller. If your ooze kiter is a paladin, that's the best option as he can cleanse when he sees everyone is in proper position. Otherwise reserve somebody who can afford to spare the attention. Only ONE person should be dispelling.

4) Assign your to-do points

DPS bullet points (ok it's 4, so bite me :P)
a) If the boss has a cast bar, run to his back, run back once he's finished.
b) If you get an infection, run to the BIG OOZE. Make sure your ooze merges into it before you run back.
c) If you get an infection and there is no BIG OOZE, run to the ORANGE CIRCLE AND STAY THERE UNTIL THERE IS A BIG OOZE
d) DO NOT, under any circumstance, run into a green puddle.

Kiter bullet points
a) Always run in a circle and in the same direction (the design on the floor is a good guide - it should keep him within healing range)
b) Keep a 20 yard distance from the Big Ooze.
c) Do not shy away from running through a puddle. Ask for extra heals, hand of freedom, etc to help you through.

Tank bullet points
a) Watch which quadrant has just got clear of ooze puddle
b) Wait till the big ooze explosion throws the green stuff in the air before you start kiting
c) Try your best to kite the boss to a safe place (the quadrant that just cleared of ooze is a safe place. The entrance door is another good place)

Healer points:
a) Heal the tank - duh
b) Heal the ooze kiter - more duh but this is something that slips a lot. Especially when one of the healers gets infected
c) Heal the person with the infection. KEEP HEALING till he's back in position.

The above wont get you a kill. You will still have to learn about multiple big oozes, handling small oozes inside the raid, big ooze absorbing new little ooze just while it's exploding (and resetting its explode), staying out of slime spray while the boss is kited away from an ooze explosion, etc. Those are the hard parts of the encounter. The above will get you to those points, hopefully with everyone alive. However, even in those instances, the basic mechanics stay the same and people CALMLY observing the above should make progress. DPS, while important for keeping the hectic part of the fight short, isnt a huge requirement.

-------------

As a reference, our guild is a casual 25man raiding guild. We also do a lot of 10man stuff. Our history one of everybody wanting in on 10mans for the easy loot and chickening out on the 25mans because it requires a lot more coordination. Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, you name it. Yes we never got to kill Yogg25 even though we got him to 3%. Why? because nobody showed up for the next try - Yogg turned out to be too hard for the casuals. So yes, i can easily relate to your atmosphere. But, trust me, Rotface is doable. Both in 10 and in 25.


We have about 15 awesome players that can do and has done hardmode stuff (Algalon 10, Tribute to Insanity, etc). Then we have about 9-10 more who are decent players, do their job as told but are unable to read a fight on the go. Then we have about another 10 who just will not learn stuff. Our 25man raids consists of people from all 3 groups. Basically whoever wants to go that night (thus the greater-than-25 roster). We still managed Rotface 25 (which is WAY harder than 10man, trust me). We also do 10mans. Some weeks in 3 groups. The awesome players are equally spread between the groups (so that no group feels like they're the crap group). One group manages to clear to Sindragosa in one sitting. Another group spends the evening wiping on either Rotface or Putricide. The difference? Group2 has people that just dont care enough. What are we doing? trying to recruit people who care.

Good luck

Muffin Man
03-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Hodir was the end of Ulduar for us - wiped at the first frozen blows every single time (around 10% in), just an instant raid wipe. This was with everyone in 2 pieces of frost resist gear that the raid leader bought for everyone with his own gold. Still half the raid stopping showing up after 2 straight nights of wiping.

I don't understand the expectations you have then. There's been content in the past that you couldn't down, and all of a sudden content you can't down now is Blizzard's fault?

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 11:11 PM
OK, for some reason i still believe you're not beyond recovery so i'll attempt one more time.

IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD!!!

Rotface is a hard encounter yes, but nowhere near hard. World of Logs reports is nowhere near a good statistic for measuring encounter difficulty. If you want a more accurate presentation, try wowprogress.com. Here's the link: http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier10_10 . That link says 58.75% of guilds have killed Rotface 10. It lists which guilds, when, etc. About as accurate as you can get. (For comparison, 91% got saurfang, 75% got Festergut). Definitely within the realm of doable.

About 10man being harder than 25man. Trust me that's not true. High-end 25man raiding guilds are used to having one or two people make mistakes during an encounter. And there are 23-24 others to cover up that mistake. When they go into a 10man setting, that single mistake looks like harder to recover from for them. On the other hand, for most casual guilds, 25man is way more difficult because you have 15 more potential fuckups waiting to happen. Wowprogress says, only 28% managed rotface on 25man. (that could be because there are less 25man raiders out there too. Aint statistics a bitch :P)

Now please take the following words as from someone in a somewhat similar atmosphere. We are a casual guild that only kicks people for offensive behaivor, ninjaing or cheating. Otherwise, if you're in, you stay in. Our raids therefore are formed from who we have. BUT.

a) Raid composition is important. I'm not saying micromanage all the buffs you can get, align with the stars or anything. But if you go with a 3 druid, 3 warrior team like we did last week, you WILL have problems, even if everyone plays well. Try to have the most basic buffs for example. Even if you dont have a paladin, you can get a gimped version of kings through leatherworking drums. No priest? runescroll of fortitude. No druid? mark of the wild is availble through some other thing (was in inscription?). Make sure you have some sort of replenishment (shadowpriest, survival hunter, demo? lock, retri pala). Stuff like that. http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/ is a very good tool to use.

b) You have too many of a certain class and none of some other required class? Welcome to the world of casual raiding. The answer? Recruit. And never stop. Keep them coming. Dont worry, the assholes will either adapt to your atmoshpere or leave of their own free will. What will happen is, you will be able to divide the core team you have into two groups, have them both decked out in decent raid composition. There will be some competition for spots too, that keeps people on their toes.

c) Change your "we cant do this" attitude. Actually this should be the first thing you do. It's the primary step to planning the success trip. You can. You really can. But you must WANT to in the first place. Weeks of wiping, followed by people leaving can drag down morale. Suck it up, get back on the horse. Evaluate your crew and how long it'll take that crew to understand the mechanics of the fight.

d) Distill the fight into MAX 3 bullet points. Those 3 points can be different for different jobs in the raid. That's ok. But if you whisper somebody 3 simple lines to follow, then you can hold them accountable. They still need to know all of the fight for a smooth kill but at the worst you can do a "Rotface for dummies" and make everybody learn their 3 jobs.

e) Keep your cool. Just one person keeping their cool can make a huge difference in a hectic fight. When doing heroic 25man Worms in ToGC, our 2 tanks died with only the 3rd left up. Everybody was thinking "oh another wipe" while i calmly told the remaining tank to tank the fixed worm and the dps to continue doing their job. We got the kill. Me being cool at that second was what saved the raid. Of course for all that calm to come through, you need proper ventrilo discipline, ie nobody else should be speaking unnecessarily.

Now, for some tips for the rotface fight:

1) Mark your ooze kiter. I prefer the orange circle. It's highly visible and deadly boss mods doesnt use it for this fight. Very funny but people seem to be missing a gigantic green blob running about but can perfectly pick out a small orange circle.

2) Tell everyone to zoom out to max. They need to be able to see the whole room to know where to run.

3) Assign a single dispeller. If your ooze kiter is a paladin, that's the best option as he can cleanse when he sees everyone is in proper position. Otherwise reserve somebody who can afford to spare the attention. Only ONE person should be dispelling.

4) Assign your to-do points

DPS bullet points (ok it's 4, so bite me :P)
a) If the boss has a cast bar, run to his back, run back once he's finished.
b) If you get an infection, run to the BIG OOZE. Make sure your ooze merges into it before you run back.
c) If you get an infection and there is no BIG OOZE, run to the ORANGE CIRCLE AND STAY THERE UNTIL THERE IS A BIG OOZE
d) DO NOT, under any circumstance, run into a green puddle.

Kiter bullet points
a) Always run in a circle and in the same direction (the design on the floor is a good guide - it should keep him within healing range)
b) Keep a 20 yard distance from the Big Ooze.
c) Do not shy away from running through a puddle. Ask for extra heals, hand of freedom, etc to help you through.

Tank bullet points
a) Watch which quadrant has just got clear of ooze puddle
b) Wait till the big ooze explosion throws the green stuff in the air before you start kiting
c) Try your best to kite the boss to a safe place (the quadrant that just cleared of ooze is a safe place. The entrance door is another good place)

Healer points:
a) Heal the tank - duh
b) Heal the ooze kiter - more duh but this is something that slips a lot. Especially when one of the healers gets infected
c) Heal the person with the infection. KEEP HEALING till he's back in position.

The above wont get you a kill. You will still have to learn about multiple big oozes, handling small oozes inside the raid, big ooze absorbing new little ooze just while it's exploding (and resetting its explode), staying out of slime spray while the boss is kited away from an ooze explosion, etc. Those are the hard parts of the encounter. The above will get you to those points, hopefully with everyone alive. However, even in those instances, the basic mechanics stay the same and people CALMLY observing the above should make progress. DPS, while important for keeping the hectic part of the fight short, isnt a huge requirement.

-------------

As a reference, our guild is a casual 25man raiding guild. We also do a lot of 10man stuff. Our history one of everybody wanting in on 10mans for the easy loot and chickening out on the 25mans because it requires a lot more coordination. Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, you name it. Yes we never got to kill Yogg25 even though we got him to 3%. Why? because nobody showed up for the next try - Yogg turned out to be too hard for the casuals. So yes, i can easily relate to your atmosphere. But, trust me, Rotface is doable. Both in 10 and in 25.


We have about 15 awesome players that can do and has done hardmode stuff (Algalon 10, Tribute to Insanity, etc). Then we have about 9-10 more who are decent players, do their job as told but are unable to read a fight on the go. Then we have about another 10 who just will not learn stuff. Our 25man raids consists of people from all 3 groups. Basically whoever wants to go that night (thus the greater-than-25 roster). We still managed Rotface 25 (which is WAY harder than 10man, trust me). We also do 10mans. Some weeks in 3 groups. The awesome players are equally spread between the groups (so that no group feels like they're the crap group). One group manages to clear to Sindragosa in one sitting. Another group spends the evening wiping on either Rotface or Putricide. The difference? Group2 has people that just dont care enough. What are we doing? trying to recruit people who care.

Good luck

This is a good post with many good tips - thanks for the effort in boiling it down in bite-sized chunks that I can pass along to the specific people if we ever get back to Rotface, and I appreciate it.

stgeorge
03-01-2010, 11:26 PM
I don't understand the expectations you have then. There's been content in the past that you couldn't down, and all of a sudden content you can't down now is Blizzard's fault?

I think Blizzard over-estimates the capabilities of the raiders they are pushing into overly difficult normal modes. Here's how I think they should do Cataclysm raids (since it's too late for Wrath). Divide the raids into classes:

10-Man Normal - Naxx-level raid difficulty (simpler mechanics and no enrage timers) - ILVL 300
10-Man Heroic / 25-man Heroic - ICC-level raid difficulty (complex mechanics and tight enrage timers) - ILVL 314
25-Man Hardcore - Sunwell-level raid difficulty (each boss is impossible without being fully geared from the previous boss) - ILVL 321

Alternatively they can do the ICC model of letting you set each boss to the level you want. This would fix our problem where we could drop Rotface to Normal to get past him. When we learned the basics and got some gear, we could try again on a harder mode. But then again, Blizzard knows what they are doing.

jaykaywhy
03-02-2010, 02:44 AM
I spoke to some people in a more successful 25-man guild (top 5 on the server) that is having success in 25-man (10/12).

They said that Rotface-10 is far more difficult on 10 than 25 and in their 3 10-man squads (composed of players in mostly ilvl 264 gear and TOGC 258 gear) only one of the squads gets past Rotface-10. Even overgearing it, they still wipe due to kiting healers or mechanics converging unfavorably. His observation is that Blizzard took the 25-man encounter and reduced the numbers slightly rather than evaluating if mechanics make sense. On the official forums, Rotface-10 has a thread every few days talking about how ridiculous it is.

His advice was to not bother with Rotface-10 until you are doing 50k+ raid DPS on Festergut-10 and that you need to have 2 healers (one of which must be a resto druid which we don't have) who could single heal the encounter if necessary. Neither of these will ever be a reality for us, so it sounds like ICC being accessible to casual guilds was a little unrealistic on Blizzard's part.


"I spoke with someone who told me what I wanted to hear so we must be right and everyone else is wrong."

edit: just petition blizzard to start letting you do 10man heroic nexus and utgarde keep. honestly, all i hear is a lot of whining.

you can't honestly say it's "too hard for your group" when you haven't had a stable group (the same people) longer than 2 weeks. every time you do, you're relearning the encounter as every raid composition is different.
if you keep losing people every week, your first step should be to recruit people who are willing to learn the raid (wipe).

the people that have posted here aren't better raiders than you. i haven't cleared sindragosa yet. my raid group did togc10 once, after ICC came out, and it was a huge wipefest.

i'm a casual and i welcome the challenging raid. it's really what distinguishes icc10 from being a "raid" versus a 10man heroic dungeon.

sorry, everyone has offered you advice, tips, and strategy on how to better approach this encounter and your raid as a whole, but you seem wholly unreceptive to even consider the advice taken. in any given situation, there's two types of factors-- within your control and beyond your control. once you've done everything that's within your control, do you have the right to complain about things beyond your control. but you haven't; not by a long shot. instead, you come on this forum asking if other people think its overtuned for 10mans. people have said "no, but it IS challenging", yet you continue to argue that it is, in fact, overtuned. you've already made up your mind regarding this fight, so why bother.

stgeorge
03-02-2010, 06:10 AM
"I spoke with someone who told me what I wanted to hear so we must be right and everyone else is wrong."

edit: just petition blizzard to start letting you do 10man heroic nexus and utgarde keep. honestly, all i hear is a lot of whining.

you can't honestly say it's "too hard for your group" when you haven't had a stable group (the same people) longer than 2 weeks. every time you do, you're relearning the encounter as every raid composition is different.
if you keep losing people every week, your first step should be to recruit people who are willing to learn the raid (wipe).

the people that have posted here aren't better raiders than you. i haven't cleared sindragosa yet. my raid group did togc10 once, after ICC came out, and it was a huge wipefest.

i'm a casual and i welcome the challenging raid. it's really what distinguishes icc10 from being a "raid" versus a 10man heroic dungeon.

sorry, everyone has offered you advice, tips, and strategy on how to better approach this encounter and your raid as a whole, but you seem wholly unreceptive to even consider the advice taken. in any given situation, there's two types of factors-- within your control and beyond your control. once you've done everything that's within your control, do you have the right to complain about things beyond your control. but you haven't; not by a long shot. instead, you come on this forum asking if other people think its overtuned for 10mans. people have said "no, but it IS challenging", yet you continue to argue that it is, in fact, overtuned. you've already made up your mind regarding this fight, so why bother.

The advice (for the most part) has been "My guild did it real easy, it's not hard, you just need to..." (the part they leave out is either A: they have TOGC-25/ICC-25 gear or B: they wiped 100 times to get a kill or C: this boss isn't for baddies). Getting lucky on a kill on the hundredth wipe is not fun or repeatable. There is no strategy to this fight other than "have abnormally incredible healers & DPS that can overpower the massive amount of incoming damage". Once you can heal the raid through being in big ooze AOE, little ooze AOE and random slime spray + slime pool, then yes, I agree that the fight will seem easy and the mechanics not that hard to follow.

Theotherone
03-02-2010, 08:19 AM
May the hand of the almighty forum monitor come down and smite this thread.

Quinafoi
03-02-2010, 08:58 AM
May the hand of the almighty forum monitor come down and smite this thread.
Definately a lost cause I agree.

mangaart1st
03-02-2010, 11:41 AM
Well, I'll add my last 2cp to this thread before the impending lock.

I think the whole issue with this is not the fight at all. It's the manner in which the group is being lead and those in the group itself. Before I get, "You in one of those awesome progression guilds of course you'll say that", my guild is in round 80 in 25 man progression, and 38 in 10 man. I run two seperate 10 mans every week that have different compositions and skill levels. Group A took 30 attempts to kill rotface 10, Group B took 8. Group A took 7 attempts at Blood Council, Group B took 15.

Heres the point. If your not the raid leader you need to talk to the raid leader. The raid leader is responisible to hold the group together during progression attempts at new bosses. If your raid leader is allowing 2-4 people to up and quit over wipes he didn't recruit or invite people to the group with the right mindset.
The first thing I asked the other 19 ppl I run my two groups with was..

Can you HANDLE wiping dozens of times? course they say yes.
So I ask again, Will you show up everyone week baring RL to put in attempts with no guarantee of gear, but for the sake of seeing the content progressed through? again most say yea sure.
So I ask a 3rd ? Can you accept not getting gear over people who have been doing the runs for weeks now wiping and progressing to this point? If they still say yes, then I wanted them in my group.

So in closing, from a raid leader's prospective.. I don't see a fault in the mechanics of the fight. The only time it was overtuned for 10 man was when he had 30% more health, which we required significant overgearing from what it should have required in order to have the dps to complete the encounter. I see the fault with not constructing a group of individuals willing to put in the time and necessary wipes to learn and complete a encounter. I attribute this mostly to the raid leader whos primary function is maintaining the morale of the raid and reinforcing that the group can be successful.

stgeorge
03-02-2010, 12:03 PM
Well, I'll add my last 2cp to this thread before the impending lock.

I think the whole issue with this is not the fight at all. It's the manner in which the group is being lead and those in the group itself. Before I get, "You in one of those awesome progression guilds of course you'll say that", my guild is in round 80 in 25 man progression, and 38 in 10 man. I run two seperate 10 mans every week that have different compositions and skill levels. Group A took 30 attempts to kill rotface 10, Group B took 8. Group A took 7 attempts at Blood Council, Group B took 15.

Heres the point. If your not the raid leader you need to talk to the raid leader. The raid leader is responisible to hold the group together during progression attempts at new bosses. If your raid leader is allowing 2-4 people to up and quit over wipes he didn't recruit or invite people to the group with the right mindset.
The first thing I asked the other 19 ppl I run my two groups with was..

Can you HANDLE wiping dozens of times? course they say yes.
So I ask again, Will you show up everyone week baring RL to put in attempts with no guarantee of gear, but for the sake of seeing the content progressed through? again most say yea sure.
So I ask a 3rd ? Can you accept not getting gear over people who have been doing the runs for weeks now wiping and progressing to this point? If they still say yes, then I wanted them in my group.

So in closing, from a raid leader's prospective.. I don't see a fault in the mechanics of the fight. The only time it was overtuned for 10 man was when he had 30% more health, which we required significant overgearing from what it should have required in order to have the dps to complete the encounter. I see the fault with not constructing a group of individuals willing to put in the time and necessary wipes to learn and complete a encounter. I attribute this mostly to the raid leader whos primary function is maintaining the morale of the raid and reinforcing that the group can be successful.

Some very good points and I agree with it in principle - we do ask those types of questions and people always say yes. The trick is finding people who stick to it when the crap hits the fan.

Also, I'm not sure why people think this thread should get locked? From what I've seen the moderators admonish people for being outright rude or causing trouble, not for having differing opinions. Certainly they've seen the thread by now and if I did anything wrong, please point it out. If I offended any of you with my opinions, I'm sorry, but in no way shape or form have I attacked people or acted like an asshole. That's more than 1 or 2 of you here can say, for certain. You don't see me trying to get you banned for not agreeing with what you're saying. For the rest of you, thanks for your help and advice.

Quinafoi
03-02-2010, 12:23 PM
Also, I'm not sure why people think this thread should get locked?

Posting & Chat Rules - READ ME BEFORE POSTING

Whining of any sort will be deleted. That's about all that needs to be said about that.

redneck6979
03-02-2010, 12:40 PM
My guild (a strict 10 man) spent 3 or 4 weeks (8 hour raiding weeks) working on Rotface. The first time we downed him was great but it felt more like luck than skill. We have since downed him every week since then and we are still working on having more than 1-2 members standing at the end. This was the same for us with Festergut also.

One of the things that I really like about ICC is that the bosses make you think. I think most players have became to lazy and just want to get in, kill boss, loot and move on.

The best way to conquer new content to be consistent. Same group/group make up and time. If you expect a kill the first time in the encounter than you will fail. If you get the kill the first time in the encounter then it isnt hard enough to make one learn the fight mechanics.

Fledern
03-02-2010, 12:56 PM
There is no strategy to this fight other than "have abnormally incredible healers & DPS that can overpower the massive amount of incoming damage".

My mistake. Definitely a lost cause.

stgeorge
03-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Posting & Chat Rules - READ ME BEFORE POSTING

Obviously this thread has not been deleted. Perhaps you should read the whole thing yourself:


Have respect for fellow members' viewpoints. Just because you don't agree with what someone has said is no reason to insult them. This goes equally for the ever-cliche if you do X, you're bad. Explain why it's a bad idea instead of the ad hominem attack.

Simply, use your common sense and treat others as you would like to be treated.

Muffin Man
03-02-2010, 03:17 PM
Definately a lost cause I agree.

But he agrees with everything in principle!

Maybe I was too gentle with my earlier post.

You didn't down Hodir, what makes you think your raid has what it takes to down Rotface? Content has to be learned and it's supposed to be a progression. My guild never got Yogg, so ya you can skip content but within reason. If you're skipping half of Ulduar then I wonder what the bonafides of your raid are since Rotface is most similar to Mimiron in terms of what it takes to down the boss. Are people just treating the entire thing like a glorified heroic? That's an attitude that won't get you very far in ICC. It's tuned for casuals: sure the blues said that, but they also said that ICC would be *hard* since it's the last raid. They never designed it so everyone can waltz in and get their title/loot. They put the statue in Dalaran so everyone can see the 'end of the game.' That should tell you that they don't expect everyone to clear LK normal, 10, 25, or heroic difficulty.


The advice (for the most part) has been "My guild did it real easy, it's not hard, you just need to..." (the part they leave out is either A: they have TOGC-25/ICC-25 gear or B: they wiped 100 times to get a kill or C: this boss isn't for baddies). Getting lucky on a kill on the hundredth wipe is not fun or repeatable. There is no strategy to this fight other than "have abnormally incredible healers & DPS that can overpower the massive amount of incoming damage". Once you can heal the raid through being in big ooze AOE, little ooze AOE and random slime spray + slime pool, then yes, I agree that the fight will seem easy and the mechanics not that hard to follow.

I know that some of the people I raid with liked to pug 25, but I know for a fact that neither tanks do and we both lacked any 251 gear, which should offset the fact that we walked in with a few pieces of 245 gear. But you know what? Gear doens't matter on this fight. Rotface doesn't hit hard. The big ooze one shots people it catches. He still has 7.5 million hp. We can down Festergut with about 30 seconds to spare and Rotface is still a 6+ minute fight.

Don't think that gear trivializes the fight. No amount of gear will let you skip his 30% soft enrage. No amount of gear will help your dps survive slime spray or slime explosions. No amount of gear will let your healers heal the kite tank through Big Ooze melee-ing him. It's not a gear check. Rotface hits relatively light (doubly so after you see Festergut). The raid damage has to be avoided. DPS can't stack enough hp to survive taking those hits over and over again. It's not a gear issue.

He has so much hp and the mechanics of the fight mean that this is a long fight. So high dps won't allow you to cheese it. You cannot avoid a slime explosion or slime spray. And you cannot avoid kiting oozes around.

jaykaywhy
03-02-2010, 03:24 PM
The advice (for the most part) has been "My guild did it real easy, it's not hard, you just need to..." (the part they leave out is either A: they have TOGC-25/ICC-25 gear or B: they wiped 100 times to get a kill or C: this boss isn't for baddies). Getting lucky on a kill on the hundredth wipe is not fun or repeatable. There is no strategy to this fight other than "have abnormally incredible healers & DPS that can overpower the massive amount of incoming damage". Once you can heal the raid through being in big ooze AOE, little ooze AOE and random slime spray + slime pool, then yes, I agree that the fight will seem easy and the mechanics not that hard to follow.


Fine, take all my posts that I've posted in this thread and addend the following--

A) No one in our raid had more than 1pc from ICC25 the first time we downed Rotface. We've never done TOGC25 and we've only done TOGC10 once and we vowed never to go back there again.

B) We didn't wipe 100 times, but we did wipe a few times. The game doesn't care how bad you want it or how many times you've wiped. It only cares if you can deliver.

C) It's NOT for baddies. ICC shouldn't be. But making a few mistakes here and there doesn't make you a baddie. Trying to tank the entire duration of a slime spray does.

How much more explicit do I have to make this? Your raid should just disband as a whole. If your whole raid has the same attitude you do, I get a feeling where the failure is really coming from.

stgeorge
03-02-2010, 09:57 PM
Good news everybody, now there is a raid-wide buff and we one-shot first 5 bosses in about 90 minutes and then killed Rotface and Valithria in 3 tries each before we called it for the night! Looks like Blizzard is paying attention after all, it was so much easier to heal through the damage with the raid buff in place, instead of people getting one-shot instantly in the first minute, we were able to save some people at 10% and keep it going. Everyone was able to see the mechanics much more clearly since we weren't dying instantly anymore.

There were still a lot of problems getting oozes to merge, but at least people weren't dying immediately waiting for the game to register a merge, the healers were able to catch up and keep people healed. Apparently the buff will get bigger over time so good to see Blizzard finally realizing that raiding is not about wiping endlessly - it's about having fun.

Acidbaron
03-03-2010, 05:27 AM
The buff didn't came from nerf cries, the buff was planned already since before the instance was released.

You're going to get stuck again on the professor and blood queen and not to mention sindragosa if healing was too hard for your healers at that fight.

Anyhow could this thread be closed, as it's long gone past it's usefulness. And there's more then plenty of threads and post on rotface for those who want to kill it rather then moan.

stgeorge
03-03-2010, 08:25 AM
The buff didn't came from nerf cries, the buff was planned already since before the instance was released.

You're going to get stuck again on the professor and blood queen and not to mention sindragosa if healing was too hard for your healers at that fight.

Anyhow could this thread be closed, as it's long gone past it's usefulness. And there's more then plenty of threads and post on rotface for those who want to kill it rather then moan.

Just wanted to share some good news finally - thanks for the kind words on how we'll fail no matter what. The healing was actually easier now with the buff, we could make a mistake and recover from it finally so we can actually figure out what to do now before being killed instantly. But you are right, if we had incredibly talented healers before, the buff wouldn't be necessary.

Mr.Winkle
03-03-2010, 09:01 AM
Just wanted to share some good news finally - thanks for the kind words on how we'll fail no matter what. The healing was actually easier now with the buff, we could make a mistake and recover from it finally so we can actually figure out what to do now before being killed instantly. But you are right, if we had incredibly talented healers before, the buff wouldn't be necessary.

I actually completely disagree with your statement.

Congratulations on killing Rotface, but i very much doubt the 5% buff was the trigger for the kill. Rotface is about execution rather than brute force. After having killed him once you'll wonder what all the fuss was about the next time you kill him (has been a 1-shot for us after our 1st 30+wipe kill). Please don't make the assumption that you only got the kill through a healing buff, assuming your healers can now out heal any raid mechanic will lead to a lot more wipes in the remainder of icc.

A lot of the comments in this thread are still valid, a lot of the fights in ICC are still execution based, having a reliable raid group you can go back in with week after week will lead to much greater success than any raid wide buff. It sounds like your raiders just need practice. The more you raid, the more you become aware of raid mechanics.

1 thing that still troubles me is your little anecdote about Hodir. How on earth can your raid wipe on frozen blows?

stgeorge
03-03-2010, 09:12 AM
I actually completely disagree with your statement.

Congratulations on killing Rotface, but i very much doubt the 5% buff was the trigger for the kill. Rotface is about execution rather than brute force. After having killed him once you'll wonder what all the fuss was about the next time you kill him (has been a 1-shot for us after our 1st 30+wipe kill). Please don't make the assumption that you only got the kill through a healing buff, assuming your healers can now out heal any raid mechanic will lead to a lot more wipes in the remainder of icc.

A lot of the comments in this thread are still valid, a lot of the fights in ICC are still execution based, having a reliable raid group you can go back in with week after week will lead to much greater success than any raid wide buff. It sounds like your raiders just need practice. The more you raid, the more you become aware of raid mechanics.

1 thing that still troubles me is your little anecdote about Hodir. How on earth can your raid wipe on frozen blows?

I'm not saying we overpowered the mechanics through healing, I'm saying we actually had a chance to see the mechanics now since instead of people dying immediately and causing a wipe, people would get hit to 10% and we would recover and then after a while people weren't making the same mistakes anymore. It was much more accessible and it's because of the buff. Too many of these fights are: one mistake = wipe and there's no chance to learn.

Let's be honest here, how many people can actually pull a boss blind anymore and learn as you go? It's not possible anymore, you need tankspot videos and wowwiki guides to even have a chance and only the most skilled players and guilds can survive a mistake to learn from it. The rest of us, even with all these guides & videos, just die immediately to overtuned bosses and have no chance to learn from the wipes.

If we wipe on these other bosses, then we'll wait for a bigger buff. I hope this is how every Cataclysm raid works - though I think they are actually trying to make it so that people don't die instantly anymore by giving additional armor & stamina to all the non-plate classes and by making it so tanks don't get destroyed in 2 shots anymore. I think that is a great idea.

stgeorge
03-03-2010, 09:34 AM
The most important thing was that we saw progress now after each wipe and that does a lot to get people interested in continuing. Endless wipes with no progress at all is not fun unless you're a masochist. Instead of one mistake wiping the raid and nobody learning anything, we could actually recover from those and know what to do better each time. I think people were also not incredibly nervous over wiping the raid (which caused even more mistakes).

We actually had our worst Saurfang encounter (3 marks allowed) and we still killed him in 1 shot since the marks were easily healable now. Before we'd wipe as soon as the second mark came which overwhelmed the healers and caused both the marks to die. The buff had a huge impact.

Maybe our new healers were "better" though they were much less geared (only TOC + badge stuff) and had much less raid experience than our previous crew of healers.

Mr.Winkle
03-03-2010, 09:47 AM
There is of course an innate problem with the mechanics you just described though. If a raid mechanic can't actually kill you, where's the challenge?

It's one of the reasons that raids like Naxx are no longer entertaining. When there's no challenge and no risk, there's no fun.

stgeorge
03-03-2010, 10:11 AM
There is of course an innate problem with the mechanics you just described though. If a raid mechanic can't actually kill you, where's the challenge?

It's one of the reasons that raids like Naxx are no longer entertaining. When there's no challenge and no risk, there's no fun.

Challenge means different things to different people. If one set of people want a more challenging encounter they can easily elect not to wear gear upgrades or enchants/gems, turn off raid buffs and don't use flasks & fish. Yet nobody ever does that...

I think Naxx is great fun for me - we enjoyed getting the speed kill on Patchwerk finally during a raid weekly and we recently got Undying. Yes, it's not impressive to do it now and maybe that even upsets people, but we had fun and were challenged.

Mr.Winkle
03-03-2010, 03:43 PM
Challenge means different things to different people. If one set of people want a more challenging encounter they can easily elect not to wear gear upgrades or enchants/gems, turn off raid buffs and don't use flasks & fish. Yet nobody ever does that...

I think Naxx is great fun for me - we enjoyed getting the speed kill on Patchwerk finally during a raid weekly and we recently got Undying. Yes, it's not impressive to do it now and maybe that even upsets people, but we had fun and were challenged.

Challenge does indeed mean different things to different people, but to take your argument to its logical conclusion what if the ICC raid buff was 100%. Would you then still enjoy the raid, when it would be little more than a 10man heroic? I doubt it.

stgeorge
03-04-2010, 07:59 AM
Challenge does indeed mean different things to different people, but to take your argument to its logical conclusion what if the ICC raid buff was 100%. Would you then still enjoy the raid, when it would be little more than a 10man heroic? I doubt it.

If that's the only way we can complete the instance, then we would certainly enjoy it.

It upsets people when they see less skilled people get the same rewards. They feel it is rewarding "less effort" but from what I've seen the skilled groups roll through content and get bored easily while the less skilled groups have to execute much more precisely to get through it (sometimes on sheer luck) and fail a lot more for it due to lack of gear or less ability to hit buttons faster. So who is really putting in less effort? The elite guild who sleepwalks through one-shotting content every week and complaining about "lolgearfarms" or the average guild who wipes 50 times to barely get lucky (if at all).

Hard modes are there (and should be unbuffed) for people who want the ultimate challenge and get the best rewards. Normal mode is for *everyone* to complete the raid. Blizzard's concept, not mine.

The raid-wide buff goes in the direction of having 3 tiers of difficulty - so everyone should be happy now? Everyone can self-tune rather than having Blizzard enforce it on them. It isn't a zero-sum game where one's success must equal someone else's failure.

Mr.Winkle
03-04-2010, 08:34 AM
If that's the only way we can complete the instance, then we would certainly enjoy it.

Ahh but it's not, currently you are content becuase the recent buff has meant that your raid now finds adequate challenge in the encounter, it's neither so hard that you can't even imagine beating it neither is it so easy as to offer no challenge. But what if the buff was 100%, as i said above, the game would no longer be enjoyable for you. That was my point.


It upsets people when they see less skilled people get the same rewards.

I don't think people get upset when others achieve what they have laready achieved. I think people get upset that a game they currently enjoy no longer becomes enjoyable. This whole thread was built on the premise that Rot-Face 10 was to hard, thus is was not enjoyable for you, your solution was to nerf the instance (or buff the raiders as Blizzard has done), now you are satisfied but others are no longer, what's the difference?



Hard modes are there (and should be unbuffed) for people who want the ultimate challenge and get the best rewards. Normal mode is for *everyone* to complete the raid. Blizzard's concept, not mine.

The raid-wide buff goes in the direction of having 3 tiers of difficulty - so everyone should be happy now? Everyone can self-tune rather than having Blizzard enforce it on them. It isn't a zero-sum game where one's success must equal someone else's failure.

I agree it would appear Blizzard are trying to offer 3 tiers of difficulty, but they haven't offered it in a consistent way. When you keep moving the goalposts is it no wonder people don't like it? Also note that with a constantly increasing raid buff the goal posts will continue to keep moving. It sounds like a 5% raid buff has given you a nice little boost, but do you think you'll need a 30% buff, and if you don't will you go back to 0% buff?

stgeorge
03-04-2010, 10:58 PM
Latest in-game fix:

- In both normal and heroic versions of the 10 player Rotface encounter, the mutated infection ability will not be cast as quickly while the fight progresses.

Looks like even Blizzard agreed it was overtuned!

Acidbaron
03-05-2010, 05:26 AM
It is most likely a fix to tune the heroic version not the normal version and they couldn't change one without the other, since if they found it overtuned on normal they would've tweaked it much earlier as they did with other fights, not months after the initial release ;)

Not that you would believe me, as you're so set that you and your raid team are inferior human beings and all the rest here who killed it without the buff and nerf are super human and that's what people have been trying to drill into that skull of yours without succes.

You described that being able to get further into the fight made you learn the encounter, which means the mechanics weren't too hard, it just means lacking the endurance and proper preparation to set thru and actual learn the mechanics, As gearwise Festergut is your gearcheck. Makes me wonder though if you're not here to troll as all you did was ignoring majority of the advice people offered.

Anyway if you're not, it's a shame you didn't learn anything from all of this. Cause if you did then the next hard fight you would bump into then you would probably not find it such a hopeless situation and spent the time and energy defending that a fight from your view is too hard, into trying to learn the fight and how to avoid certain mechanics or combination of mechanics that wipe you.

That's it from me, and no longer going to get baited into replying here.

stgeorge
03-05-2010, 06:43 AM
It is most likely a fix to tune the heroic version not the normal version and they couldn't change one without the other, since if they found it overtuned on normal they would've tweaked it much earlier as they did with other fights, not months after the initial release ;)

Not that you would believe me, as you're so set that you and your raid team are inferior human beings and all the rest here who killed it without the buff and nerf are super human and that's what people have been trying to drill into that skull of yours without succes.

You described that being able to get further into the fight made you learn the encounter, which means the mechanics weren't too hard, it just means lacking the endurance and proper preparation to set thru and actual learn the mechanics, As gearwise Festergut is your gearcheck. Makes me wonder though if you're not here to troll as all you did was ignoring majority of the advice people offered.

Anyway if you're not, it's a shame you didn't learn anything from all of this. Cause if you did then the next hard fight you would bump into then you would probably not find it such a hopeless situation and spent the time and energy defending that a fight from your view is too hard, into trying to learn the fight and how to avoid certain mechanics or combination of mechanics that wipe you.

That's it from me, and no longer going to get baited into replying here.

In the end, Blizzard saw Rotface had a problem with the mutating injection being too fast or they wouldn't have nerfed it ON TOP of the 5% buff (which tells you how bad it was). I'm sure they expected a lot more clears after the buff and still saw a considerable number of wipes.

You can see in my first posts that the mutating injection & oozes were coming too fast (and it still was prior to this nerf, just that it doesn't instantly kill people with the 5% buff). Get out of the echo chamber.