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Aex
02-19-2010, 01:58 AM
What about gemming dodge only?

I've got 18 possible gem slots wich would give me around 9% dodge with only 20 dodge gems. This would give me around 9% (a total of around 40% dodge if i swap trinkets aswell) and a 5400 hp loss from the gems and would still have 40k unbuffed.

How would "Chill of the Throne" affect this? As now when i've got around 27% dodge and around 10% dodge inside ICC. (I suck at math tbh)

vine
02-19-2010, 03:45 AM
Personally I gear/gem Armour > Stam > Threat > Dodge.

Avoidance plays very little part in my ICC gearing choices. Chill of the Throne combined with all the amazing +armour pieces leave avoidance very far behind. If you are fine for threat (hit/expertise) then I would ignore socket bonuses and wack +30stam in everything. This is coming from a Blood DK though, so I'm a bit of a stam whore.

Aex
02-19-2010, 03:50 AM
Well i'm a Warrior as i forgot to mention so it would give quite a lot avoid.. Nothing that i'm going to try tho unless it's superawesom cuz stamina will still be my priority. Just tought i'd bring up a discussion and see what ppl think.. i haven't seen any discussion about it yet.

I mean around 40% dodge, 23% parry & 17% block..wouldn't that make up for the hp loss?

vine
02-19-2010, 03:55 AM
Gemming dodge will give lots of avoidance regardless of class, and you'll find there's a loooooot of discussions on avoidance vs stam.

Mačl
02-19-2010, 04:05 AM
Being a warrior I would rather research how much avoidance/sbr you would get by gemming +def.

But the argument of avoidance versus stamina has been mostly resolved by going armor/stam wherever you can. People have started gemming agi/stam in red slots for the armor/threat/avoid you get for that.
In ICC 9% avoid will not be as valuable as 5400 life. Healers will have to continue spamming heals on you and your +9% avoid will go straight into overheal. If you have 35% avoid post chill then you will be in a good position to push armor and stamina. Festergut is THE tank killer encounter I have actually witnessed as a healer and I can tell you that 9% avoid won't help you to consistently avoid being two shot.

Airowird
02-19-2010, 08:18 AM
It is never a good idea to gem purely Dodge, due to DR. At some point Parry rating will definately be better and it is not too uncommon for Defense to reach that level without already stacking Dodge as well.

If you want to know about how effective it would be against key bosses, try the spreadsheet and see what kind of Burst Time etc. you get.

Satorri
02-19-2010, 09:46 AM
Avoidance vs Health is a very long running discussion.

The reason it is a discussion and not a cut-and-dry "here's how it is" is because they are apples and oranges in how they work so there is no clean way to draw a relative comparison. In other words you can't say X dodge is worth Y health.

I *can* tell you what to expect. With high avoidance and lower health you (and your healers) will see your health fluxuate in larger steps when it does move, but it is rare that a healer will actually find you harder to keep alive. The only place that will be a little funky is in tank-buster bosses. Bosses who hit for massive hits (a la Festergut on 3rd inhale) will hit you less so your healers will appreciate that, but when you do get hit you may find a few more cases of "you just died."

For practical results, stacking health as many/most tanks do is safe, but laborious for healers. You take more damage but you are harder to kill for the fact that you can eat big bursts of damage.

Avoidance gearing can be powerful, but semi-randomly unsafe in very specific encounters. Smart play can help cover that, and in general it *shouldn't* be an obviously broken game play. I've played more than a little trying to push a more extreme avoidance setup and have had no real problems yet, but I haven't tried applying it to some key fights where I know it will be put to the test (i.e. Festergut).

Bashal
02-19-2010, 10:26 AM
Avoidance vs Health is a very long running discussion....

*summarizes*

Fairly put.

OP's question has been answered.

Now someone please close this quick before it becomes a 10-page EH vs. Avoidance thread.... :P

MellvarTank
02-19-2010, 11:33 AM
Now someone please close this quick before it becomes a 10-page EH vs. Avoidance thread....

Seconded.

Edgewalker
02-19-2010, 03:00 PM
Stamina and armor are the only statistics that matter in ICC. Stamina first, armor second. You can't gem armor (no, agility doesn't count).

Do the math.

Airowird
02-19-2010, 05:25 PM
Stamina and armor are the only statistics that matter in ICC. Stamina first, armor second. You can't gem armor (no, agility doesn't count).

Do the math.
I did and use Burst Time as a mean. Avoidance still matters (although generally, HP stuff still trumps it.)

Kojiyama
02-19-2010, 05:47 PM
As WarTotem says... putting aside the Avoidance vs. Stamina debate (search for one of the 10000 threads on it already!) if you are interested in gearing for survival, for whatever reason, you still will never want to gem pure Dodge.

Typically, even in survival time or burst time calculations Stamina is slightly better than avoidance point-for-point. However, usually the value of avoidance is strong enough that mixed gems for Stamina socket bonuses are alright. That's why you see some tanks matching sockets with Def/Stam and Dodge/Stam gems. You will still never want to gem pure Dodge, as it will simply reduce your burst time--which is what you care about if you are making an effort to gem for dodge. In other words, it's self-defeating.

It's also worth noting that at high gear levels, Defense Rating is better for a Warrior than Dodge Rating in terms of avoidance and burst time.

So, TLDR version:
a) Gem all Solid gems
-or-
b) Gem Solid + Dodge/Stam + Def/Stam gems

Never gem pure Dodge.

Rampart
02-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Once you have enough stam and armor to meet the EH requirements, then avoidance starts become more useful.

Generally speaking, the only dodge gems I use are for red sockets when there's a +5 or better stam socket bonus. +10 dodge and +15 stam gems that is.

krc
02-20-2010, 04:48 PM
Once you have enough stam and armor to meet the EH requirements, then avoidance starts become more useful.

Generally speaking, the only dodge gems I use are for red sockets when there's a +5 or better stam socket bonus. +10 dodge and +15 stam gems that is.

Not to be nit picky but I am pretty sure that 5 stam socket bonuses don't exist, do you mean 6?. The problem is that once you say "When you hit the EH requirement" at that point you out gear the encounter and might as well throw on dps gear unless there is no real threat of hitting the enrage timer and a ton of raid wide damage. I personally and many others like to go with 15 stam and 10 agility on red sockets when the bonus is 9 stam or more because in terms of damage reduction agility is 98% as effective, the armor helps on not avoidable but mitigable attacks and the crit adds damage.

Aggathon
02-21-2010, 02:05 PM
I forsee this thread ending badly, just like every other EH vs. avoidance thread. I could write a freaking novel about it (and ended up writing a guide with a gemming section), but all I'll say for now is that avoidance stats don't become "more useful" once you reach an "EHP minimum." There are a plethora of reasons behind this, but basically it's because healing and boss mechanics have changed since brutallus.