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Lux
02-18-2010, 05:41 PM
Having been in innumerable groups with someone asking me why I don't use D&D I'm beginning to wonder...should a DK tank always be using D&D regardless of spec etc?

I've read over the DK tanking thread on here in some detail and use a single disease rotation with Howling Blast Glyphed. I find that I put out very reasonable threat on both multiple and single targets, and yet I'm still being asked "why no death and decay?" at least once a day (not by anyone pulling aggro either).

Am I seriously mentally challenged to not be using it? I'm not happy just being 'ok', I want to be the best I possibly can, and if that will help, I'll change my rotation to work it in :)

Thanks!

Edgewalker
02-19-2010, 12:25 AM
DnD is not a single target tool for any spec. For Unholy/Blood, DnD should be used on virtually ever cooldown for AoE packs. For Frost, you don't have a huge reason to do it.

Airowird
02-19-2010, 12:44 AM
As Frost I use it as opener on AoE packs(>3 mobs).
DnD-HB-BB does tons of damage and beats any other combo with or without DnD.
Once I opened up with that I usually follow it with HB>BB>OB prio as usual.

Tomhvk
02-19-2010, 02:45 AM
Im going to go ahead and ninja this thread, ive just received 2pc t10.5 and i decided to glyph dnd aswell, I have heard that dnd is the highest 'threat per rune cost' before the extra 20%+20% dmg for DnD with 2pc and glyph, ive found it very helpful. I can only really use DnD if i mess up my rotation and im left with lots of ruens open, at the start of a fight, or a well timed blood tap or erw. Does any 1 know a DnD rotation, or if a DnD rotation is even viable?

As far as the issue with DnD on single target mobs, i use it at the start and then thats it.

As far as your issue with aggro, your best bet is to ask for MD / ToT's everytime, apply IT and PS, use your main attack (SS / HS / OB) then pop erw, use your main attack 2/3 more times, reapply IT + PS main attack again, then use blood tap etc. Try not to hit the RP cap, and u should be fine.

Deathshay
02-19-2010, 03:52 AM
Dnd is mandatory for blood and unholy tanks, while for frost, it is one of your 4 big aoe functions, where the order of power is: DnD>HB>Diseases>BB
That priority is kind of personal, and mind you that DnD is more expensive to fire off than the others. If you ask me, for frost tanks it is a nice tool to easily gather packs, as it gives you a different aggro type, which is far better if the mob group is not comming in one big bunch. Generally for frost tanks, it is used for a stable and large treath lead on aoe packs, which is far easier to get to every mob, than HB/disease/BB combos, and supply you with far more treath than the quick fast treath bombs. So I would suggest using it for aoe packs as an opener, or during a fight to easily gather sidepulls, asuming you can pop the runes ready and off cooldown.
At Tomhvk, DnD should be very powerfull doe to the 1.8 treathfactor of standard, but that "threat per rune cost" is probably only for single target, so it is still very usefull for aoe situations.
One thing to note, is that all our aoe options are on some sort of cooldown, and therefore using "one more" cooldown, will significantly help your aoe, since you will still have lots of runes for singletarget attacks which in large aoe packs are almost useless.

Satorri
02-19-2010, 08:20 AM
DnD is not a single target tool for any spec. For Unholy/Blood, DnD should be used on virtually ever cooldown for AoE packs. For Frost, you don't have a huge reason to do it.
Couldn't have said it better.

Though admittedly I don't use it on CD as Blood, I just use it to start a pull. But then, most group pulls don't last 15 seconds, definitely not more than a straggler or two.

As Frost I won't usually use it unless I can set it up well in advance to grab a pat's initial attention. HB, *especially* with a single disease/glyphed setup, is plenty strong for grabbing everything's attention, so it doesn't *require* DnD. That said, if you want a super safe group pull, you can just preset DnD for the pull, HB to spread diseases, pop BB and go get a drink while you wait for runes to come back.

Theotherone
02-19-2010, 09:07 AM
Group or single target I drop DnD - I see no reason not to; it's just part of my pull routine.

Bashal
02-19-2010, 09:35 AM
When I used to tank on a frost DK, I found DnD to be horribly inconvenient. HB seemed more than sufficient.

Satorri
02-19-2010, 10:27 AM
I have a why not for you Theotherone:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?60096-DnD-T10-and-glyph

=)

Even with every possible buff to it, DnD is still not worth its cost on single targets, it just gets closer to comparable with the one possible exception being an Unholy setup specifically designed to make it worth using all the time.

Wilhem
02-19-2010, 10:41 AM
Group or single target I drop DnD - I see no reason not to; it's just part of my pull routine.

As blood I don't use DnD on less than 3 mobs ever. I can IT > PS > Pestilence > BB and have solid aggro on both of them and both of my disease up. If someone attacks the "wrong" target I have DG and Dark Command if they manage to pull aggro, which they normally don't (maybe a mage that gets a few crits in a row)... DnD's aggro is not that solid.

Although i'll agree with Satori in that most pulls are dead within 1 DnD in anything other than a raid.

Theotherone
02-19-2010, 10:47 AM
I have a why not for you Theotherone:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?60096-DnD-T10-and-glyph

=)

Even with every possible buff to it, DnD is still not worth its cost on single targets, it just gets closer to comparable with the one possible exception being an Unholy setup specifically designed to make it worth using all the time.

Yeah, I see, but I've grown so accustomed to it, so that it's just part of what I do on pulls; drop DnD then HB, then go from there or in Blood; DnD, then a HS etc. - the biggest drawback being Rune cool-down.

dotJEM
02-19-2010, 11:25 AM
I have a why not for you Theotherone:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?60096-DnD-T10-and-glyph

=)

Even with every possible buff to it, DnD is still not worth its cost on single targets, it just gets closer to comparable with the one possible exception being an Unholy setup specifically designed to make it worth using all the time.

Your math is wrong... as i also pointed out in that post now, DnD actually ticks for 11 ticks... not 10...
PROPERLY won't make a Threat pr. Rune difference in the final results... but never the less... it is wrong >.<

Satorri
02-19-2010, 12:02 PM
Full of fiesty. It doesn't make the math *wrong* it makes it slightly off. 11 ticks instead of 10 means you can increase the values for DnD by 10% and have the correct values.

Try to relax some.

dotJEM
02-19-2010, 12:43 PM
Full of fiesty. It doesn't make the math *wrong* it makes it slightly off. 11 ticks instead of 10 means you can increase the values for DnD by 10% and have the correct values.

Try to relax some.

The input is wrong, that makes the result wrong and as such the math for the specific question.
The formulas is not wrong...

Funny that you say "Try to relax some."...

I did "Properly" in UPPER and >.< to indicate that id didn't matter much, and that...
It was a friendly poke... that you clearly took as an offence...

nothingsjim
02-19-2010, 02:37 PM
I have a why not for you Theotherone:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?60096-DnD-T10-and-glyph

=)

Even with every possible buff to it, DnD is still not worth its cost on single targets, it just gets closer to comparable with the one possible exception being an Unholy setup specifically designed to make it worth using all the time.
You ignored two major factor in that calculation of yours, Boss Armor and 13% extra spell damage debuff from e.g Curse of Element or Ebon Plaguebringer. I don't know why but you only included the latter in the calculation of D&D's threat in unholy section, while that buff is pretty much universal now in raid where it's always present from a warlock or boomkin.

I will use Blood Secion as reference as i am a Blood Tank myself.

As a tank we are pretty much stuck with 0, or may be around 100 ArP at best depanding on our weapon, and even with Sunder Armors and Faerie Fire up, you will have to at least subtract 30-35% of overall damage from the attacks, which in turn lowers the threat. Using the maths from the link you posted, Blood tank's replacement for D&D, which is a DS+HS, hits for 9840 (With DS Glyph), while in reality it could NEVER hit for that much on a boss.
The damage from D&D is not reduced by armor, and it gains an extra 13% damage from spell debuff, which makes its final damage, T10 and Glyph included, from the 6211 according to your calculation, to 7018 damage overall. Which makes it generate around 28000 threat overall.
So yes, D&D should be used after you obtained 2 piece of T10, hell, it could be used even before that, it's just it's no better than standard rotation, while with 2 piece T10 it clearly becomes a winner.

Also, allow me to ask a question, can anyone confirm/deny that Dancing Rune Weapon is adding threat to its owner now? If so it might actually be a good threat talent...

Satorri
02-20-2010, 04:47 AM
There is suspicion that it is (along with Gargoyles for Unholy), but there was some ambiguity in the confirmation last I checked. There was a thread on DK.info where they were trying to establish, but I've lost the link.

And if you want to get nitpicky on the DnD math you could also factor the hit chances, etc. DnD will have a lower hit chance (not the full spell miss chance last time I checked, but higher than melee), but also cannot be parried/dodged. We can't always assume to have any buff or debuff, it's not helpful to the many people who run 10-mans and may not have it. That makes the math a bit trickier if you're trying to reach a general audience.

I try to maintain a pretty high level of depth but I always miss something. =)

Fortunately factors like the 13% spell buff are easy to incorporate as it can be applied directly to the final numbers, and armor reduction as well (though don't forget the 10% from B-G if you want to factor for Blood).



If you want to make conclusions about the further implications and impacts of DnD, you may want to also consider RP generation (15 for 3 runes as opposed to 25 for 1 and 2 combined, or 30 for 3 individual), combined with longer blackouts, and the impact on procs and other tree-specific interactions like Rime procs for Frost.

Küren
02-20-2010, 09:39 AM
Yes, we had a couple people confirm (using Omen or two tanks) that DRW threat is counted as your own threat. However, it is not getting bonus threat as you would due to Frost Presence. The damage it does is the threat you get. Because of that, it should provide around a 25% increase in threat for its duration.

Another interesting thing is that while it says it makes the same attacks as you, it would auto-attack the mob even if I was not. You can run away from a mob and watch as the rune weapon continues to auto-attack the mob. There may be some interesting uses for it them. The Rotface slimes come to mind since it allows you to get some threat and not be in melee range.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 10:52 AM
I've been using DRW for a bit now, it's really a very nice 1 point investment. It's also very hard to use without SoB, so look at it more as a 2 point investment if you aren't 1/3 already.
I went 3/3 to do testing on it uninhibited, will drop some soon.

Tomehere321
02-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Im going to just sum this up for you-

If your current rotation that you are running is working for you, then stick with it! You seem like you know what you're doing, most frost rotations dont really include DnD, and i think its because HB and BB give plently of threat on multiple targets. I really wouldnt try working a dnd into in, but a lot of the posts in here contain good information. there are a lot of ways to play your Dk, and as long as you're keeping threat, you dont have anything to worry about. Most ppl just arent knowlegable about all the different tanking styles of dks.

Lux
02-22-2010, 02:57 AM
Thanks everyone for all your replies :)

Sounds like I'll just continue what I'm doing then, as its working a-ok for now at least.

Ty again

dotJEM
02-22-2010, 05:22 AM
Thanks everyone for all your replies :)

Sounds like I'll just continue what I'm doing then, as its working a-ok for now at least.

Ty again

There is ofc always the well... more common cases.
For a Patchwork style fight... DnD as an opener only, those fights are rare though.

This sums up my usage somewhat.

Marrowgar: I use DnD on every Phase 2 End (or just before so my runes are mostly off CD)
Lady: Good for Inital open on adds.
Ship: Opener for new adds or at jump.
Saur: If you can control it with Adds spawning, just before switch to you (Unessesary though)
Fester: Initial Pull
Rot: Slimes (Dk's are superior in Add tanking compared to E.g. warriors, so I am always stuck on adds, maybe on the run in after the explosion for the MT)
Fessor: Initial Pull (and maybe of side switches if your not to comfortable with strafing and hitting him)
Prices: Initial pull but Not nessesary.
Queen: Initial Pull and after Air phase.
Sindra: Initial Pull, before tank switch but not nessesary.

The before tanks switch usages.
- Not to soon to waste it, and not to late to break your rotation... it has to be time so you get some of the ticks, yet don't get hurt in your rotation after the taunt... Effectively you will get maybe 5 ticks but properly never more, but it never hurts if those ticks are free.

Satorri
02-22-2010, 05:31 AM
I've been using DRW for a bit now, it's really a very nice 1 point investment. It's also very hard to use without SoB, so look at it more as a 2 point investment if you aren't 1/3 already.
I went 3/3 to do testing on it uninhibited, will drop some soon.

Has it been track-ably good? I've been considering shifting some points around if the 3.3.3 changes go through as-is to try and grab WotN *and* not sabotage my threat too much from what I'm used to.

Proletaria
02-22-2010, 03:17 PM
Has it been track-ably good? I've been considering shifting some points around if the 3.3.3 changes go through as-is to try and grab WotN *and* not sabotage my threat too much from what I'm used to.

What talent points would you take over wotn that would boost your threat significantly? Necrosis is now lower tps per point than sd.

I see little reason to deviate from http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERVh0IcborssxhxZ0gh the standard blood spec at the moment after the patch. Take a point out of sudden doom for DRW if you want the smallest sustained threat loss possible: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERVh0IcbodssthxZ0gh:idGVmM

Bosk
02-23-2010, 03:23 AM
It is a trash/aoe tool, and for that reason the 2pc bonus is lame :(

Satorri
02-23-2010, 05:33 AM
"Standard" Blood spec meaning the "most popular" by armory tracking?

I have one floating point right now in Sudden Doom that could jump to DRW for testing. Though I think Edge hit it on the head, it's a little awkward to use while tanking for the heavy heavy cost. You pretty much have to leave empty GCDs to save up RP so you can pop it for burst later unless you stack in points into SoB. I don't use SoB now and I have a strong rhythm set. In order to get points for these I would either have to trade other survival abilities I've been enjoying, trade Hysteria (seems silly, since it would trump DRW's value to me), and the other place I was considering trading was Abom's Might. For raids it might not be a big deal since they're making auras passive and always on, and MM hunters/Enhance Shamans aren't uncommon, and losing 2% Str isn't a deal breaker as a tank. That said, it feels better having it for when I don't have that raid buff.

All in all, WotN isn't getting some magic bullet that I think will make a huge difference, but as I tank the back of ICC, I am curious to see if it makes things a little easier on my healers when things are rough.

Proletaria
02-24-2010, 09:59 AM
Using the spec I suggested eh?

And no, standard blood spec as in EJ boards' heavily theorycrafted and debated standard blood spec. Courtesy of Suno.

Molecule
02-24-2010, 10:34 AM
I respecced into DRW last night just to try it out. I didn't test extensively but from what I saw it seemed like the 1/1 DRW and 1/3 Scent of Blood were generating about the same amount of threat as the 2/3 Subversion that was replaced by them. It's a lot more fun to use though, and for certain fights (e.g. Anub, Sindragosa, and anything with a tank switch) it's probably going to be somewhat better so I'm probably going to stick with it.

Proletaria
02-24-2010, 11:47 AM
I respecced into DRW last night just to try it out. I didn't test extensively but from what I saw it seemed like the 1/1 DRW and 1/3 Scent of Blood were generating about the same amount of threat as the 2/3 Subversion that was replaced by them. It's a lot more fun to use though, and for certain fights (e.g. Anub, Sindragosa, and anything with a tank switch) it's probably going to be somewhat better so I'm probably going to stick with it.

Better in what way?

Molecule
02-24-2010, 12:06 PM
If threat is an issue (and I'm not saying it really is, like I said I just think it's roughly equivalent to the other talent points and somewhat more fun to use, but IF threat were an issue) then DRW becomes better relatively any time you spend a period of time not tanking the boss and not generating meaningful threat on it. The "ideal" situation for DRW is if you are able to generate threat for exactly 12 seconds every 90 seconds. Obviously there is no fight like that, but the longer a boss spends in an unattackable phase the closer it gets to this limit and the better DRW becomes.

Bosk
02-25-2010, 08:29 AM
DRW generates threat?

Acidbaron
02-25-2010, 08:58 AM
Believe he means the extra death rune from unholy and frost runes, getting an additional HS/DS in.

nvm mixed up DRM with DRW.

Satorri
02-25-2010, 09:07 AM
DRW generates threat?

Currently, tests are suggesting that the damage the weapon deals translates equal threat to the tank (not affected by Frost Pres multipliers). So essentially it is a 25% threat bump for 12 sec.

Bosk
03-04-2010, 08:29 AM
My rogue is going to cry when he learns that his Personal Bloodlust (Hysteria) is going away!

Molecule
03-04-2010, 10:23 AM
My rogue is going to cry when he learns that his Personal Bloodlust (Hysteria) is going away!

Did I miss something? What's happening to Hysteria? :(

Edgewalker
03-04-2010, 10:52 AM
Dropping Hysteria for any reason is pretty ridiculous. It's an extremely good buff for a 1 point investment.

I think I'll end up keeping DRW. I use it and Corpse Explosion and have actually had some varied success with both on different encounters. DRW is a greater DPS gain than a TPS gain, but I find DPS more beneficial as of late since TPS is so... easy.
I don't have Imp. Icy Touch currently though... 3.3.3 will probably bring a change to my spec.

Angriff
03-04-2010, 11:30 AM
I grabbed DRW about a week ago and I have to say I'm loving it. Like Edgewalker says, it's not a huge TPS increase single target, but it gives you a little bit more control of burst threat and it increases your dps for tanking. But where I'm really loving it is AoE threat. When you get the diseases from both you and the Rune Weapon pestilenced out on a pack you can do some pretty great AOE TPS, especially if you have an Unholy DK putting out Ebon Plaguebringer.

Insahnity
03-04-2010, 04:13 PM
I'll admit my baby DK is not enough to explain this.

Corpse explosion only occurs when you get something down to 'splode, which means you survived the biggest hump, gaining snap aggro on a pack of mobs. Sustaining aggro on a pack is rarely a problem, which is the only thing that CE would help. I would accept that if you are the only DK with it, it's a useful but slight raid DPS addition, nothing more. Helping aggro, I'm not following.

KnThrak
03-05-2010, 12:31 AM
Does anyone know whether the gargoyle transfers threat to the DK, too?

Satorri
03-05-2010, 06:26 AM
I believe it was caught in the same catch, transferring damage unmodified as threat.

I also expect that this was unintended and *might* be fixed in the future.

Bosk
03-05-2010, 08:22 AM
Yes, we had a couple people confirm (using Omen or two tanks) that DRW threat is counted as your own threat. However, it is not getting bonus threat as you would due to Frost Presence. The damage it does is the threat you get. Because of that, it should provide around a 25% increase in threat for its duration.

Another interesting thing is that while it says it makes the same attacks as you, it would auto-attack the mob even if I was not. You can run away from a mob and watch as the rune weapon continues to auto-attack the mob. There may be some interesting uses for it them. The Rotface slimes come to mind since it allows you to get some threat and not be in melee range.

Isn't Omen just making its own calculations on threat - I mean indirectly estimating threat form the combat log and not directly reading a threat api from the mob?

Küren
03-07-2010, 01:19 AM
No, Omen hasn't worked like that for a while. Blizzard provides an API call to get the exact threat values on a creature. Omen should provide accurate numbers as it was changed to use that API. Because Omen provides the raw threat numbers, it cannot tell you your actual threat. It includes threat from things like Tricks of the Trade and Misdirect. Those non-API based tools still have value but they need to make sure they are accurate. All the testing I was referring to was done using Omen though.

Someone even did a test where they had someone taunt off them but then not attack and popping DRW would pull the threat back to the DK.

We're fairly sure DRW is providing threat as described. What we don't know is whether it was intentional.

Bosk
03-08-2010, 07:13 AM
Ah, thanks for the info Küren.