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View Full Version : Warrior Multi-mobs, Tab target vs Cleave



jugggernaut
02-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Hey everyone,

In heroic and raid environments multi mob targeting is always fun for me, its a challenge sometimes and I love doing it. I was recently wondering about tar tageting vs t clap and cleaving however. When I tab target I usually SS/Revenge to give some nice aggro lovin. I watch Omen as the threat numbers jump.I have heard almost everywhere that t clap and cleaving is just as good for aggro. When I cleave I understand it splits the aggro and it doesnt really go up as fast/as much. I agree with this only when dps is actually assisting and not hitting the thing with the most hp in order to do 'max dps.'Cleave like heroic strike, turns extra rage in aggro, but how much?

What im trying to say I guess is, Cleave gens almost no threat so why do it so much?

Kazeyonoma
02-17-2010, 03:56 PM
you can cleave AND tab target at the same time, and as a warrior there's no reason not to keep tclap on cd when aoe tanking. tclap, shockwave, tab target shield slam/devastates (maybe even a revenge if you want the stun or they buff it back up to a useful state) all while spamming cleave.

Güth
02-17-2010, 04:04 PM
What im trying to say I guess is, Cleave gens almost no threat so why do it so much?

Because in an aoe tanking situation your choices for damage dealing swings are:

A. Cleave - Hits 2 or 3 targets (if glyphed) puts threat on all targets hit

B. Heroic Strike - Hits 1 target, high threat

C. White Swing - Hits 1 target, low threat

Personally I'd rather hit 2-3 targets than 1 at a time, if you were to tell the group/raid to wait on dps so you could Heroic Strike each mob before they get attacked you'd quickly find yourself without a group/raid to tank for.

Like Kaz said, Cleave does not trigger a global cool down on abilities so there is no reason not to tab and Shield Slam / Devastate while Cleaving as well as keep Thunder Clap and Shockwave on cool down.

Brage
02-17-2010, 04:18 PM
Never used cleave as a tank and i've never had the need to. You need to get it glyphed + talented before it's worth it and its just not needed.
If i got 3 targets on me and some AoE'er is pulling 1k threat on them, i'd rather use a HS for 1.2k threat on 1 of them to keep it than use cleave for 800 threat on all 3 and not keep any of them - numbers are an example. With cleave you get consistent AoE threat but in lower ammounts and at a higher rage cost and you practically need to spam it inorder to produce suffecient threat. With HS i find that you can throw 1 + devastate on 1 mob and then switch to another target without having to worry.

Dreadski
02-17-2010, 04:22 PM
Never used cleave as a tank and i've never had the need to. You need to get it glyphed + talented before it's worth it and its just not needed.
If i got 3 targets on me and some AoE'er is pulling 1k threat on them, i'd rather use a HS for 1.2k threat on 1 of them to keep it than use cleave for 800 threat on all 3 and not keep any of them - numbers are an example. With cleave you get consistent AoE threat but in lower ammounts and at a higher rage cost and you practically need to spam it inorder to produce suffecient threat. With HS i find that you can throw 1 + devastate on 1 mob and then switch to another target without having to worry.


I usually find myself tanking between 8 and 12 or even as high as 15 mobs at once. 3 I could see using HS but when you pull 2-3+ groups at a time you need to get as much threat on as many mobs as possible as quickly as possible.

jugggernaut
02-18-2010, 01:17 AM
Personally I'd rather hit 2-3 targets than 1 at a time, if you were to tell the group/raid to wait on dps so you could Heroic Strike each mob before they get attacked you'd quickly find yourself without a group/raid to tank for.

Like Kaz said, Cleave does not trigger a global cool down on abilities so there is no reason not to tab and Shield Slam / Devastate while Cleaving as well as keep Thunder Clap and Shockwave on cool down.

I have tried this out a few times and it seems the burst threat of tabbing ss/rev/dev it faster aggro, while cleave is def alot slower it does let me hit more than one with a weapon swing. speaking of weapon swing, when i get cleave qued up and tab for ss/dev wont those instand attacks come out first followed by a cleave?

Supermassive
02-18-2010, 02:47 AM
Def like said earlier, run in, Shockwave, TC, then tab target while rev,dev, and ss.
(the reason I'd say use rev also is because cleave is hella expensive.)

And about the queu of cleave:
Cleave ignores your GCDs, it hits whenever you do a normal weapon swing.
so sometimes itll hit before, sometimes after, sometimes at the same time.

mavfin
02-18-2010, 10:51 AM
Kaz hit it on the head. Why not do both? I tab around and hit mobs with whatever's up, and cleave, and keep TC/Shockwave on cooldown. Works fine for me.

Kazeyonoma
02-18-2010, 11:04 AM
I have tried this out a few times and it seems the burst threat of tabbing ss/rev/dev it faster aggro, while cleave is def alot slower it does let me hit more than one with a weapon swing. speaking of weapon swing, when i get cleave qued up and tab for ss/dev wont those instand attacks come out first followed by a cleave?

the cleave will come out whenever your next swing comes, if you swing before you hit ss/dev then it'll cleave then you'll ss/dev, if you just finished a swing, you queue up cleave, then hit ss/dev you'll probably ss/dev first, then your cleave will come out.

On next swing attacks are based solely on your .... you guessed it... next swing, so weapon speed factors in a lot on these, and largely why slow weapons have always been shot down as tanking weapons because of lower HS usage (although that is changing now with the devastate buffs).

mavfin
02-18-2010, 02:24 PM
the cleave will come out whenever your next swing comes, if you swing before you hit ss/dev then it'll cleave then you'll ss/dev, if you just finished a swing, you queue up cleave, then hit ss/dev you'll probably ss/dev first, then your cleave will come out.

On next swing attacks are based solely on your .... you guessed it... next swing, so weapon speed factors in a lot on these, and largely why slow weapons have always been shot down as tanking weapons because of lower HS usage (although that is changing now with the devastate buffs).

Basically, for more than one mob, I use cleave, as cleave and heroic strike are mutually exclusive. They're both 'next melee' attacks, which fire on your white swing timer, if I'm understanding correctly. Basically, cleave/HS will *replace* your next white swing, rather than supplement them.

(Not contradicting Kaz, just adding some info, I hope.)

Brage
02-19-2010, 03:28 PM
@ Dreador
Well yeah ok. but if you tank that many mobs at once you're gonna need the glyph and the talents inorder for Cleave to make any difference anyway and then i can understand it.

From my experience, TC, well placed shockwaves and devastates/shield slams are more secure aggro especially because cleave is such a rage hog.

Güth
02-19-2010, 05:58 PM
@ Dreador
Well yeah ok. but if you tank that many mobs at once you're gonna need the glyph and the talents inorder for Cleave to make any difference anyway and then i can understand it.

I think you're greatly over estimating the extra 266.4 damage that 3/3 Improved Cleave adds, it's not a 120% damage boost to the entire Cleave, just the +damage component that is added to your weapon damage. (3/3 Improved Cleave is Weapon Damage + 466.4 damage, 0/3 would be Weapon Damage + 222 damage)

I would not consider that essential for aoe tanking in comparison to a normal Impale/Deep Wounds build, even in a 5man with stuff getting killed quickly that extra 266.4 damage will likely not be the deciding factor in who gets aggro.

Valkira
02-21-2010, 03:53 AM
I say cleave cleave CLEAVE! I cleave (glyphed) on every swing and if i don´t have the rage it means i'm not pulling enough mobs. IMO, tab targetting is just too slow to spread the threat around and its gets worse with more mobs. Charge, Tclap, step back and Shockwave, then cleave spam with SS/Dev each GCD, keeping tclap on cooldown. With nameplates up (i use tidyplates/threatplates) I just keep and eye on the mobs' health and if one mobs health starts dropping more than the others I just click on it and continue as before. The extra SS/Dev attention will hold that mob that someone has decided to burst or single-target. My left hand is busy enough without adding Tab to it. Get your mouse hand working more imo!

p.s. doing this on ICC trash makes me out-threat most other tanks except really really good pally tanks.

Brage
02-21-2010, 06:49 AM
I think you're greatly over estimating the extra 266.4 damage that 3/3 Improved Cleave adds, it's not a 120% damage boost to the entire Cleave, just the +damage component that is added to your weapon damage. (3/3 Improved Cleave is Weapon Damage + 466.4 damage, 0/3 would be Weapon Damage + 222 damage)

I would not consider that essential for aoe tanking in comparison to a normal Impale/Deep Wounds build, even in a 5man with stuff getting killed quickly that extra 266.4 damage will likely not be the deciding factor in who gets aggro.
I know how the talent works and that's exactly my point. Threatwise and ragewise, tab targetting and HS spamming is more threat than cleave without talents/glyph. With talents/glyph, the gap is only smaller. For quick packs that get AoE'd down i can see the use of cleave since you won't be needing solid ammounts of threat before the mob dies. But for packs that need to be dragged around and killed slowly - boss packs mostly -, stick with HS.