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caykor
02-16-2010, 09:40 PM
I have found some info out there saying that in ICC it is better to go with mongoose over blade ward. Was wondering if this is theory crafting proven or just personal preference of people. Any advice on which one to use would be most appreciated.

Muroku
02-17-2010, 07:22 AM
I prefer Mongoose to blade ward because it has a higher uptime overall, and it adds to armor and threat via Agility/Wep Speed increase as well. Blade ward falling off after you parry is the deal breaker for me.

This isn't just for ICC, i've always liked it better. Blood draining is a better option, depending on what role you play in the raid.

MellvarTank
02-17-2010, 08:27 AM
This has been covered repeatedly. I recently switched to mongoose and have noticed a higher uptime, but I'd also like to try blood draining.. just haven't found an enchanter or scroll on the AH.

MishaPie
02-17-2010, 10:39 AM
Yes Blood draining would be a good one I think, but I hear it may have a chance to screw up Paladin's ardent defender. I think the possibility of that happening is very very low but does anything have any light to shine on the subject?

Azuae
02-17-2010, 04:18 PM
I always use Blood draining.

krc
02-17-2010, 04:24 PM
There are plenty of threads on this and if you look at the EJ thread you can see that in a standard boss who hits for 45k every 2.4 seconds Blood Draining is by far better but in the cirumstances we are in now the bosses generally will burst you down in a sense that the Blood Draining heal as it is reactive not proactive won't have time to heal you making Mongoose the better choice.

Bodasafa
02-17-2010, 06:32 PM
Blood Draining is generally the best enchant in all situations. Mongoose is comparable. Either one is a good choice.

Bladeward is not an enchant, its a waste of enchanting mats.

Aggathon
02-17-2010, 11:05 PM
Why do people keep knocking bladeward? post 3.2 it has a higher uptime and more avoidance than mongoose for a warrior. Mongoose has the added benefit of an armor proc, but for warriors the uptime is generally really low (30%-ish). For paladins, it is absolutely true that mongoose is better. Due to SoV pallies see an uptime of about 80% on mongoose, and pallys get better agi conversions than warriors, making it even better.

HOWEVER, having said that!! I personally think blood draining should be the enchant of choice, a 2k smart heal is > RNG imo.

Either way though, none of the enchants are game breaking, and if that's the difference between you killing a boss and not, then something is wrong.

Basically, for warriors:
Mongoose = lower avoidance/uptime than bladeward, but more mitigation (due to armor from agi) and more threat (from more crit from agi)
Bladeward = best raw avoidance for warriors
Blood Draining = the EHP encahnt (2k smart heal when you are low on health, it has actually saved my life a few times, most notably on anub'arak25 HM)

For Pallies, Mongose >> Bladeward, but I still <3 me some Blood Draining.

Akeber
02-18-2010, 07:19 AM
Why do people keep knocking bladeward? post 3.2 it has a higher uptime and more avoidance than mongoose for a warrior.

Do you have some parses for comparison, or a link to one? I've read many places where people say it's "better since 3.2", but no hard numbers as to how much better, and no comparison to mongoose.

Bodasafa
02-18-2010, 07:33 AM
Why do people keep knocking bladeward?
Bladeward = best raw avoidance for warriors

Because the best option for tank is to gear, gem, and enchant for EH. Bladeward is not EH. Some fights may favor avoidance, but they are few and far between. If needed I would swap some rings and a neck, instead of put a sub par enchant on my weapon.

Aggathon
02-18-2010, 09:30 AM
Because the best option for tank is to gear, gem, and enchant for EH. Bladeward is not EH. Some fights may favor avoidance, but they are few and far between. If needed I would swap some rings and a neck, instead of put a sub par enchant on my weapon.

Read the rest of my post where I say blood draining is the best.

@Akeber: There were several threads done on this, it's kind of hard to dig up and I don't have time to right now, a lot of it is people just spewing accusations without any real data, but there's 1 thread around that has a lot of actual parses from several different people on multiple fights and it shows bladeward as higher/better than mongoose for warriors. For paladins absolutely mongoose is better. Bladeward and Mongoose were also close pre- 3.2, but when the agi coeffs got nerfed and parry coeffs got buffed, bladeward became the clear victor.

Warrenar
02-18-2010, 10:07 AM
Not sure why warriors are knocking Blade Ward. Let me try to clear a few things up...

First off, stop trying to compare uptime from Blade Ward to Mongoose. You DONT WANT high uptime on Bladeward. What you want is high proc rate. If your having high uptime with Blade Ward it means you aren't parrying which means the enchant is doing nothing for you.

Second, outside of ICC Blade Ward is bad. This is because dodge is the dominant avoidance stat, you will most likely dodge in succession before you parry letting your proc of Blade Warding tick down unused. Inside of ICC, Blade Ward is good. This is because Parry is your highest stat. This means as soon as your charge of Blade Warding procs, it has a much greater chance of being used.

Here is a WoL for our Sindragosa pass : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yplb9ngp0vf4kwia/details/12/?s=16151&e=16737

If you looked at Damage by Spell, you'll see that Blade Warding hit 6 times meaning I parried 6 times thanks to Blade Ward. It says Sindragosa was hitting me on average for about 8.5k, so that is 51k damage I didn't take because of the enchant.

Here is my the WoL for the entire night http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yplb9ngp0vf4kwia/details/12/

Do the same thing. Blade Warding hit for 100 times. I was being hit on average for about 6k a piece (This is most likely including trash) which makes out for about 600,000 damage I didn't take throughout the night.

Is 240 armor going to mitigate 600,000 Damage throughout an entire night? No.
Is Blood Draining going to heal for 600,000 throughout an entire night? No.

Bodasafa
02-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Read the rest of my post where I say blood draining is the best.

I did, I was just responding to your question of why I was knocking Bladeward. I knew we already agreed, so I was confused also lol.

Hoar
02-18-2010, 11:57 AM
Blade ward is basically worthless. Everything that you stated above is wrong. You do not want to parry while blade ward is up. The attack table works by adding up all of your avoidance possibilities and populating a giant table. Adding 2-3% parry adds 2-3% parry and pushes dodge 2-3% down the table. The fact that your blade ward proc'd 6 times in a fight does not mean that you parried 6 times due to blade ward. You just so happened to parry 6 times while blade ward was active. With an added 2-3% chance to parry and a basic 21% chance to parry you would average 1 in 7+ parries to be due to the blade ward buff. Thus odds are that none of those 6 parries were due to blade ward being active. Now there may have been some dodges that would not have been dodges on the attack table if blade ward had not been active but this is impossible to know.
The only thing that blade ward gets you is 2-3% more avoidance for a very low uptime. Avoidance is not conditional. Every hit has the exact listed chance of being dodged/parried/blocked. 2-3% avoidance is near useless in ICC, 2-3% avoidance with a low uptime is most definitely useless.

Bodasafa
02-18-2010, 12:02 PM
Here is a WoL for our Sindragosa pass : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yplb9ngp0vf4kwia/details/12/?s=16151&e=16737

If you looked at Damage by Spell, you'll see that Blade Warding hit 6 times meaning I parried 6 times thanks to Blade Ward. It says Sindragosa was hitting me on average for about 8.5k, so that is 51k damage I didn't take because of the enchant.

There is no way you can prove that the extra parry rating from the enchant was the reason you parried. You already have a base parry chance from your item equips and talents.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46027#comments. "To sometimes to increase parry rating". Parry is already a chance to avoid an attack. So your stacking a chance to increase doing something that has a chance to avoid an attack. Awful lot of RNG in there.

Dreadski
02-18-2010, 12:34 PM
Blade ward is basically worthless. Everything that you stated above is wrong. You do not want to parry while blade ward is up. The attack table works by adding up all of your avoidance possibilities and populating a giant table. Adding 2-3% parry adds 2-3% parry and pushes dodge 2-3% down the table. The fact that your blade ward proc'd 6 times in a fight does not mean that you parried 6 times due to blade ward. You just so happened to parry 6 times while blade ward was active. With an added 2-3% chance to parry and a basic 21% chance to parry you would average 1 in 7+ parries to be due to the blade ward buff. Thus odds are that none of those 6 parries were due to blade ward being active. Now there may have been some dodges that would not have been dodges on the attack table if blade ward had not been active but this is impossible to know.
The only thing that blade ward gets you is 2-3% more avoidance for a very low uptime. Avoidance is not conditional. Every hit has the exact listed chance of being dodged/parried/blocked. 2-3% avoidance is near useless in ICC, 2-3% avoidance with a low uptime is most definitely useless.


There is no circumstance where parry pushes dodge off the table. Dodge is always rolled first in regards to incoming damage.

Aggathon
02-18-2010, 12:35 PM
Blade ward is basically worthless. Everything that you stated above is wrong. You do not want to parry while blade ward is up. The attack table works by adding up all of your avoidance possibilities and populating a giant table. Adding 2-3% parry adds 2-3% parry and pushes dodge 2-3% down the table. The fact that your blade ward proc'd 6 times in a fight does not mean that you parried 6 times due to blade ward. You just so happened to parry 6 times while blade ward was active. With an added 2-3% chance to parry and a basic 21% chance to parry you would average 1 in 7+ parries to be due to the blade ward buff. Thus odds are that none of those 6 parries were due to blade ward being active. Now there may have been some dodges that would not have been dodges on the attack table if blade ward had not been active but this is impossible to know.
The only thing that blade ward gets you is 2-3% more avoidance for a very low uptime. Avoidance is not conditional. Every hit has the exact listed chance of being dodged/parried/blocked. 2-3% avoidance is near useless in ICC, 2-3% avoidance with a low uptime is most definitely useless.

What are you talking about? Parry doesn't push dodge off the table, do you understand how the table mechanics work? Even then, block is the first thing pushed off the table, you would have to have absurd amounts of dodge and parry to get one of them knocked off the table, and even then you'd be at 100% avoidance anyways, so it doesn't matter (well technically 102.4% boss avoidance).

If you're saying "just because you parried with bladeward up doesn't mean you parried b/c of bladeward" the exact same logic can be applied to mongoose, which is a lower % per proc than bladeward.

Overall I agree with the judgement that avoidance sucks compared to EHP, which is again, WHY I SAID THAT BLOOD DRAINING WAS BETTER!!!!! All I'm saying is that bladeward is not as insignificant as people claim when compared to mongoose as far as avoidance goes.

Warrenar
02-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Blade ward is basically worthless. Everything that you stated above is wrong. You do not want to parry while blade ward is up. The attack table works by adding up all of your avoidance possibilities and populating a giant table. Adding 2-3% parry adds 2-3% parry and pushes dodge 2-3% down the table. The fact that your blade ward proc'd 6 times in a fight does not mean that you parried 6 times due to blade ward. You just so happened to parry 6 times while blade ward was active. With an added 2-3% chance to parry and a basic 21% chance to parry you would average 1 in 7+ parries to be due to the blade ward buff. Thus odds are that none of those 6 parries were due to blade ward being active. Now there may have been some dodges that would not have been dodges on the attack table if blade ward had not been active but this is impossible to know.
The only thing that blade ward gets you is 2-3% more avoidance for a very low uptime. Avoidance is not conditional. Every hit has the exact listed chance of being dodged/parried/blocked. 2-3% avoidance is near useless in ICC, 2-3% avoidance with a low uptime is most definitely useless.

Uh what? You don't want to parry while Blade Ward is up? I guess you'd rather dodge then :confused:...please rationalize this.

Basically what your saying is if a Druid has Mongoose and it procs, none of the dodges done while under the effect of the Mongoose had anything to do with the extra 2% avoidance you gain?

@Bodasofa
Like you said, there is no way to prove that my parries had anything to do with the enchant. But there's another side to your theory, there's no way to prove that those parries weren't because of Blade Ward.

There has been multiple times when I'll get a double stack of Blade Ward, then Parry almost instantaneously. In my opinion, having a burst of 29% parry rating and then parrying not two seconds later seems like I parried that attack do to having the burst avoidance from the enchant.

Hoar
02-18-2010, 12:44 PM
Ya, ya, I figured that parry was first as parrying is better than dodging (great logic there Blizz), I hadn't checked the table in a while. The entire argument still stands though, just ignore the dodge talk...it never happened. Anyway. Bladeward still sucks, I would argue that Mongoose is damn useless as well. You can't rely on a proc to be there when the RNG screws you on the attack table. Most any added avoidance on gear is pretty worthless over the base amount. Healers won't notice a 5-10% increase in a avoidance when you're avoiding 40% already in ICC. Blood draining might do you some good but I'd stick with the dps enchants until they put in an enchant that adds noticeable survivability.

MellvarTank
02-18-2010, 12:50 PM
Has anyone else noticed that this argument happens every time this subject is brought up?

Let's boil it down to what Agg, Dreador, Bodasafa, and just about anyone else has said when looking at the math to back it up:

Bladeward and mongoose are BOTH viable for avoidance enchants. Due to proc rates alone (and uptime), mongoose has a better uptime for paladins and bladeward has a better uptime for warriors, however neither is game-breakingly better and both are still fine for either class.

Druids use Mongoose or Blood Draining because they don't have parry, and DK's use their Runes.

Blood Draining is the best EH enchant currently (paladin, warrior, druid), and due to the viability of EH in current content is the enchant of choice.

Bodasafa
02-18-2010, 12:53 PM
Either way though, none of the enchants are game breaking, and if that's the difference between you killing a boss and not, then something is wrong.

All this debate aside, the above is the real moral of the story here.

Aggathon
02-18-2010, 01:02 PM
Ya, ya, I figured that parry was first as parrying is better than dodging (great logic there Blizz), I hadn't checked the table in a while. The entire argument still stands though, just ignore the dodge talk...it never happened. Anyway. Bladeward still sucks, I would argue that Mongoose is damn useless as well. You can't rely on a proc to be there when the RNG screws you on the attack table. Most any added avoidance on gear is pretty worthless over the base amount. Healers won't notice a 5-10% increase in a avoidance when you're avoiding 40% already in ICC. Blood draining might do you some good but I'd stick with the dps enchants until they put in an enchant that adds noticeable survivability.

How the table works, is lets say (for 100%, I won't get into decimals for simplicity)
Dodge = 25%
Parry = 20%
Block = 15%
Miss = 10% or something, obviously all these depend on your relative avoidance values, this is just an example

Dodge then takes up 1-25 on the table, parry takes 26-45, block takes 46-60, miss takes 61-70, getting flat out hit takes up 71-100.

/rolll 100
25
dodge

/roll 100
40
parry

/roll 100
50
block

/roll 100
90
hit

etc. etc., the only way to get knocked off the table is to have more than 100%

(This is more for all those people wondering wtf we were talking about) If you were to do a priority like (check dodge, then check parry, then check block, stopping whenever you hit a check) then each attack would require tons of calculations causing blizzards servers to crap themselves. Instead, they just do 1 calculation with a table and avoid all the annoying statistics crap involved.

As for not using blood draining because it's not game breaking, that's like saying you might as well gem socket bonuses for dps since 10 stam isn't going to matter for survivability in the grand scheme of things. Blood draining has saved my life as verifiable by WoL reports. Why you would choose a dps increase for a survivability increase, no matter how minor, baffles me. A tank's #1 job is to survive, let the dps do the dps. Gear/gem/enchant for survivability, no matter how marginal.

Edit: Also what MellvarTank said.

Warrenar
02-18-2010, 01:10 PM
Does anyone have any WoL for Blood Draining in ICC? I'd like to see how much healing it is doing throughout an entire night\encounter.

krc
02-18-2010, 01:13 PM
I would be curious to see those logs Agg, most of the deaths I am seeing in ICC Blood Draining doesn't have time to heal you as it is reactive but I may be wrong.

Aggathon
02-18-2010, 01:16 PM
Does anyone have any WoL for Blood Draining in ICC? I'd like to see how much healing it is doing throughout an entire night\encounter.

I could probably find you one, but tbh it's not about overall healing, it's about healing done when you need it. Frankly if it is saving your ass a lot, something is wrong. Imo blood draining is for when you get the really unlucky RNG streaks and you just need more hit points.

ehh... found one anyways: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9sa7rfukmab2nhjr/details/17/ over the course of the night it proc'd 26 times for Erobinia, if you click on the spell you can see when it healed Eraduun too (29 times, and era got 6 crits). Total healing on Erobinia was 34k

Aggathon
02-18-2010, 01:34 PM
I would be curious to see those logs Agg, most of the deaths I am seeing in ICC Blood Draining doesn't have time to heal you as it is reactive but I may be wrong.

Admittedly the best example was on Anub'Arak25 hardmode, which is obviously a fight with unique mechanics. On our first insanity kill I dropped to 50hp, if I hadn't had blood draining on I would have died. And that log is probably long since lost in the deleted archives of WoL since that was like 6 months ago.

The above logs do show that quite a bit of healing went on with blood draining though.

double postin'!

Warrenar
02-18-2010, 01:35 PM
Those are probably the highest numbers I've seen thus far for Blood Draining healing.

For his boss attempts I see:

1 Proc during Marrowgar (2102 heal)
2 Procs during Putricide (3073 [1.5k each] heal)
1 Proc during Sindragosa (1994 heal)
4 Procs during Blood Princes (4505 [1.1 each] heal)

It was four out of the eleven bosses his enchant did something. I'm still not completely convinced this is worthwhile, but those were "smart" heals so I suppose they could have made the difference between a wipe and pass.

Edit: I realize it's not about overall healing. When I was using this enchant it was during ToGC which didn't have trash. So overall then would've been just for bosses.

Airowird
02-19-2010, 01:04 AM
@Warrrenar;
If you never drop below 35% HP it never procs. Then again, if you never drop below 35% HP, you could've done the fight without Mongoose or Blade Ward anyway.

Mongoose is probably the best enchant for Druids and the best avoidance enchant for Paladins, while it comes relatively close to Blade Ward for Warriors.
Overall, you could probably slap on 25 agi or 25 hit/crit and tank everything just fine, because unlike Berserking for DPS, there is no awesome weapon enchant for tanks (except Runforges).

Fledern
02-19-2010, 04:46 AM
Beauty of Blood Draining comes out in progression:

Here's a log of a farm night:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8mv2lsqs48k903wb/details/22/
Blood reserve procced 5 times & healed for a tiny 3860 in total. Nothing to write home about

Here's a log of a progression night:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ggquw65q85d7zwaa/details/4/
Blood reserve procced 11 times & healed me for 10458.

It's not about how much healing you get, it's about you not dying while the healers scramble to get you back up. If you go deep into logs the enchant did exactly that.

<3 Blood Draining

Dragaan
02-19-2010, 07:06 AM
Blood draining is pretty awesome in ICC. There are several fights where you can get spiked down pretty fast (especially the heroics, both 10 and 25). I'm really happy with blood draining on lich king tho. He hits very, very hard and it usually ends up healing me ~10x per fight. Once I'm a bit more comfortable with my hp pool, I'll probably be using the corpse tongue coin on lich king as well.

Daavos
02-19-2010, 12:38 PM
To answer the OP question, as you can see there's still some debate which enchant is the best and why it is the best.

Brage
02-19-2010, 02:21 PM
The beauty of Blood Draining is that it's always effective healing + the more health you get the bigger chance of proccing it. Explanation on the last bit: Everything in WotLK is about burst damage, tanks take loads of it but so far we've either taken too little to drop below 35% or we drop down to 0% and die - a scenario where Blood Draining won't proc. The more health you get and the bigger your "35%" become, the higher the usage of Blood Draining.

That being said; i still don't see much use for it. The absolute maximum healing i've recieved from it during a progression raid in Ulduar a while back, was something in the lines of 30k over the course of 4 hours worth of raiding. And funny enough; the logs all show a bigger overheal from healers aswell, so i would've survived anyway theoretically.
It doesn't make that big of a difference which tank enchant you use. There's nothing exceptional and unless you're missing +hit and go for Accuracy, it's pretty much irrelevant.

Ubermicro13
02-21-2010, 04:43 PM
I used to have Blood Draining on my Pally Tank, but I ended up Killing myself due to Argent Defender.

Switched to Mongoose and Haven't seen a problem yet.

Kazeyonoma
02-22-2010, 10:00 AM
how exactly, does argent defender kill you with blood draining?

Aggathon
02-22-2010, 10:10 AM
how exactly, does argent defender kill you with blood draining?

^ THIS! That statement really confused me, doesn't argent defender make blood draining BETTER?

Akeber
02-22-2010, 11:06 AM
I used to have Blood Draining on my Pally Tank, but I ended up Killing myself due to Argent Defender.

Switched to Mongoose and Haven't seen a problem yet.

Argent Defender? I think you're referring to Ardent Defender.

The whole argument about BD causing AD to be leapfrogged was rendered moot waaaaaaay back in 3.2 when AD was changed.

drae
02-23-2010, 04:07 PM
The choice between enchants is really easy for me because of one statement I read from a much wiser tank then myself:

It's not about the the amount of damage you don't take, it's about how much damage you can take.

garrodd
02-24-2010, 01:34 PM
It's not about the the amount of damage you don't take, it's about how much damage you can take.


I don't understand this logic. Are you expecting to not get healed?

The thing that has always struck me about stamina is that it's usefulness seems to rapidly decline once you are safely able to survive any worst case scenario combos (things like a stomp and two melee hits, not something like all of your healers dying). Sure you might live longer when all of your healers are silenced or dead by mindlessly stacking stam, but who cares?

Then again, with mana being a non-issue for healers it really doesn't make a difference either way unless they break their fingers from spamming too much. You may as well pick the enchant with the prettiest graphic.

Aggathon
02-24-2010, 02:08 PM
I don't understand this logic. Are you expecting to not get healed?

The thing that has always struck me about stamina is that it's usefulness seems to rapidly decline once you are safely able to survive any worst case scenario combos (things like a stomp and two melee hits, not something like all of your healers dying). Sure you might live longer when all of your healers are silenced or dead by mindlessly stacking stam, but who cares?

Then again, with mana being a non-issue for healers it really doesn't make a difference either way unless they break their fingers from spamming too much. You may as well pick the enchant with the prettiest graphic.

God damned, this is so not going to turn into another EHP vs. Avoidance debate. I'm putting my foot down!

drae
02-24-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm saying it's more important to be able to withstand damage then avoid it. Your getting healed, as long as DTPS isn't higher then your healers' HPS it's better to gear to take greater amounts of damage, not less.

Getting hit consistently for a smaller portion of your life is better then getting hit less often for a larger portion of your life. Ask any healer which they prefer.

Blood Draining is the only EH enchant. Period. EH stacking is not stamina stacking, as I'm sure you understand.

EH doesn't stop becoming useful after the "worst case scenario" it makes those worst cases much less dangerous in the event of human error.

drae
02-24-2010, 02:20 PM
God damned, this is so not going to turn into another EHP vs. Avoidance debate. I'm putting my foot down!

Of course it will, the question of which weapon enchant is better is simply an EH vs. avoidance scenario (or threat, but then threat isn't really a consideration when you out threat your DPS by ~20% regularly); unless your talking mongoose vs. bladeward.

I don't like it either; I'm just trying to answer the question!

Kazeyonoma
02-24-2010, 02:25 PM
it's not just surviving 3 consecutive hits, it's about how much heals are needed to top you back up.

Take for example.

You have 45k hp buffed. Boss fires off ultra combo on you, and drops you to 5k hp, yay you survived! his next melee hit will land for 25k. In order to survive that next hit, you need to be healed for 20001 hp before the hit lands.

vs.

You have 55k hp buffed. Boss fires off ultra combo on you, and drops you to 15k hp, yay you surived as well! his next melee hit will land for 25k, in order to survive that next hit, you need to be healed for 10001 hp before the hit lands.

See, it's not just about pure unmitigated damage calculations, this affects how healers are able to control your health as well even AFTER you survive traumatic situations.

Aggathon
02-24-2010, 02:35 PM
I don't understand this logic. Are you expecting to not get healed?



Yes, because unless it is a situation where you have to use a cooldown but don't, the other most likely times for a tank to die are when you either can't be/aren't healed like if a healer gets silenced, or stunned, or your holy pally is divine pleaing, or something of that nature.

swelt
02-24-2010, 04:10 PM
Can I put forward an alternative hypothesis: All weapon enchants for tanks have of such a minor impact on overall performance that it makes little-to-no difference which you select.

Kazeyonoma
02-24-2010, 04:32 PM
I've been using a weapon chain for the hit since naxx...

Shico752
02-25-2010, 09:54 AM
IMO it all depends on what you need, if your healer is new or has some lat. problems take Blood draining (or even life ward if you think you'll get an up grade so and don't want to waste the mats) for help in healing, if your healer is awesome (like mine :D) then see if your threat is good if it needs more work then mongoose for crit and attack speed plus the armor. I have never used blade ward cause for some reason we seem to be lacking in enchanters that have it *shrugs* so I can't comment on Blade ward over Blood Draining or mongoose, my threat and healer is good so I use mongoose in the end but thats me. as for the chain, I don't use it cause A: who gets disarmed in raids B: I'm hit capped as it is. BUT if your a starting tank just hit 80 or still leveling go for the chain is fairly cheap to make and its still good

off topic slightly in pvp (areans more so) Blood draining would be the best choise, I was on my tree healing in WG (note on my realm ally always have like 10 tenasity it sucks seeing a mage the more heath then KT) watching a tank buddy in his fury spec rend a few allys blood draining stacked up quick when I got stun locked but a rouge pally combo and he got ambused by another pally, he hit 35% bam healed up war stomped them healed my self then him, we win FOR THE HORDE wg stays ours :D

Hourni
02-26-2010, 05:56 AM
Soooo, lemme see if im following the logic here...

Mongoose for Palladins

Druids ..uhmm..(dunno tbh,i stopped reading)

Death Knights . different kettle of eggs.

Warriors..Blood Draining if you dont trust your healers, Mongoose if your dps have itchy trigger fingers and Blade Warding if your a .. uhmm..need parry at times..err?..that you got no control over when it procs because your gear/hp is a bit low or summat?

Right?

man,i am as lost as tits on a fish.

can someone pass the crayons and draw me a picture?

Aggathon
02-26-2010, 06:45 AM
can someone pass the crayons and draw me a picture?

like so?

http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1143&d=1267195381

Hourni
02-26-2010, 09:12 AM
proper lol :)

MellvarTank
02-26-2010, 09:16 AM
This is the lesson you should take from this thread:

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/gallery/61934/chant1291Pop.jpg


1154

Aggathon
02-26-2010, 09:34 AM
Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator (http://www.tankspot.com/sendmessage.php)

MellvarTank
02-26-2010, 09:38 AM
Does it show up for you now Agg?

Angur
02-26-2010, 10:55 AM
personally I was using Mongoose all throughout WotlK content. I started using Blood Draining. I do not see any difference between the two enchants or in dire need for either. I figure that:

Blood Draining
- I have 50k health
- Boss Hits me for 35k
- I am now at 15k
- I am now below 35% (Weapon Proc) and I am going to get 2k free heals.
- Boss hits me again... I am dead.

Mongoose
- I have 50k
- Boss hits me for 35k
- I am now below 35%
- (Weapon Procs, I gain a bit of AV and threat)
- With the little bit of AV boss hits me again (which is LESS than 1%) I am dead.

Whatever way you look at it there is a chance you are going to live/die. Your healers keep you alive. If you are taking spiky damage, 2k every once and awhile doesn't hurt. If you are foolish to believe that the AV from Mongoose is actually worth while and make or break your raid then you need to fix your tank. Considering this topic is always popping up I am going to say that both enchants help. There isn't a "better" one.

We can provide each other with logs, proc's, mitigation all we want but either tanking weapon enchant is the right one to use.

swelt
02-27-2010, 12:19 PM
I approve of the mspaint school of theorycrafting!

Harmacy
02-28-2010, 09:18 AM
This is the lesson you should take from this thread:

That just made my day.

Crommi
03-01-2010, 05:09 PM
On Lich King, Blood Draining will proc everytime Soul Reaper goes off, healed me for total of 18297hp on a kill. Another fight where it really becomes active is last phase of Sindragosa.

uglybbtoo
03-01-2010, 07:57 PM
So it heals your for 18K the question is did that make or break the encounter? 18K in a boss fight is what some fraction of a percent.

A mongoose chant may have provided extra threat and stopped some dps dying etc or the extra agi kick may have saved you butt no way to know.


This has been over and over before there is no way to definitely say which is better it depends upon very situational things. Both chants are good and people will decide which they feel is better given there tank situation.

I do like Agg's colour selection criteria :-) But no HOT PINK chant in game :=(

Brage
03-02-2010, 02:01 AM
As i see it, it's not solely about for how much Blood Draning heals, but also when it heals. It's always effective healing and yes, something as meassly as a 2k heal can save the fight when combined with other factors. I'm very well aware that it won't matter against the hard hits from let's say Arthas, but change the scenario to one melee'er getting Defile and is slow on running so everybody near takes atleast 1 tick. Blood Draining now did it's job.
Don't consider it a heal as such, but more of a healing buffer.

Aggathon
03-02-2010, 06:01 AM
Don't consider it a heal as such, but more of a healing buffer.

Well put, it's the closest bliz is gonna let us get to a stam enchant =P