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Evassara
02-16-2010, 12:39 PM
One of our guild main tanks who does a very good job overall but only has 11 expertise.

He is a paladin.

I am a DW Deathknight and I know the important of expertise and usually run with 29 expertise.

I have noticed that on Trash I take more damage but on bosses I take less damage and he's better geared than I am.

I'm assuming expertise is the issue at hand, but wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing.

All tanks should have a minimum of 26 expertise whether they are using DW or Two Handed weapon right?

Molecule
02-16-2010, 01:16 PM
It depends on the trash, but most likely the different you're seeing (if it's large packs we're talking about) is due to the fact that the paladin has a block mechanic. Expertise makes very little difference on large trash packs because unlike boss fights causing one mob in a pack of six to parry haste is not going to be a significant damage increase.

Evassara
02-16-2010, 01:18 PM
It depends on the trash, but most likely the different you're seeing (if it's large packs we're talking about) is due to the fact that the paladin has a block mechanic. Expertise makes very little difference on large trash packs because unlike boss fights causing one mob in a pack of six to parry haste is not going to be a significant damage increase.

I understand that and thats what I assumed.

My real question is the following:

All tanks should have a minimum of 26 expertise whether they are using DW or Two Handed weapon right?

Evassara
02-16-2010, 01:27 PM
I just found somewhere else that a paladin was saying the following:

You get 6 from the prot tree, and another 10 from the glyph, so a total of 16.

If this is true, and if my guild paladin tank has 11 expertise then he would have 27 expertise and be fine. I'll have to check and see if he has the glyph.

Molecule
02-16-2010, 01:31 PM
The short answer is no; you don't need 26 expertise unless you are having threat issues. Most bosses in ICC don't parry haste, and even if they did there is nothing magical about 26 expertise except that it's the point where dodges stop happening (and there is no such thing as dodge haste so that's purely a threat consideration).

Also, I'm not sure about the glyph, but the expertise talent should already be included in the character sheet, so don't add it in twice.

Evassara
02-16-2010, 01:52 PM
The short answer is no; you don't need 26 expertise unless you are having threat issues. Most bosses in ICC don't parry haste, and even if they did there is nothing magical about 26 expertise except that it's the point where dodges stop happening (and there is no such thing as dodge haste so that's purely a threat consideration).

Also, I'm not sure about the glyph, but the expertise talent should already be included in the character sheet, so don't add it in twice.

You have a link by chance with the list of bosses that do parry-haste in ICC?

I found a site that is saying the following:

Lord Marrowgar – Parry Haste Disabled
Lady Deathwhisper -
Gunship Battle -
Deathbringer Saurfang -
Rotface -
Festergut -
Professor Putricide – Parry Haste Disabled
Blood Princes -
Blood Queen Lana’thel -

If this is accurate only a few bosses have Parry-Haste Disabled.

Molecule
02-16-2010, 02:44 PM
http://pwnwear.com/2010/02/09/parry-haste-doesnt-seem-to-exist-in-icc/

Loganisis
02-16-2010, 03:12 PM
*

Trademark
02-16-2010, 03:26 PM
Hit and Expertise relate to threat.

26 is where you stopped being dodged.

Where you stopped being parried is somewhere in the 50s (a lot of expertise).

So what does this mean? Everyone gets parried. You gear for EH to prevent parry haste from being an issue.

Pallys have a glyph that gives you a ton of Expertise.

Akeber
02-16-2010, 03:56 PM
Hit and Expertise may be helpful to improve threat generation, although notably for Paladins it is more effective point-for-point to get hit (which improves the chance for all of a Paladin's melee and spell attacks to hit), rather than just expertise (which, for a Paladin, only helps auto-attack and Hammer of the Righteous (http://www.wowwiki.com/Hammer_of_the_Righteous)).

This information is out of date.

Shield of Righteousness was changed in 3.3, it is now a melee attack that does holy damage, same as Hammer of the Righteous. As such, it is now able to be dodged or parried. Considering that ShoR and HotR are our two biggest threat moves, every paladin should try to reach the dodge cap. Considering the glyph of SoV count for ten skill, and we get another six from talents, it's really not that hard to reach dodge cap.

The six skill from talents will show on the character sheet, and so will the ten skill from the glyph, if you have SoV up. That's a total of 16, leaving only 10 skill (40 rating) needed from gear.