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PatrikL
02-16-2010, 07:40 AM
Is there any easy way for me to either in game or using say world of logs to check if all my raid members are applying the neccesary debuffs to bosses?

I started thinking about this recently when I asked a warrior in my raid if he made sure to remember to do demo shout on bosses (this example was rotface but this was in general)old me sure he would do that and that he would out it on his bars!? That told me that he had probably never used it during any raids earlier and made me think about going though other things which people might miss (not sure how many more there are but trying to learn them all)

Edit: Thought long and hard about which category to post this is and still not sure

Spirithooff
02-16-2010, 07:45 AM
Hi PatriKL,

There's an addon that is design to do exactly what you're asking for. Utopia
http://www.wowace.com/addons/utopia/
or
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/utopia.aspx

Hope it helps

Spirithooff/Alexstrasza/US

PatrikL
02-16-2010, 07:50 AM
Thanks will try it out and see if it does the job for me. Was a little bit shocked when I understod that many people dont bother with doing some of these things which dont directly benefits their own dps...

Satorri
02-16-2010, 07:53 AM
But but but, if I sunder as a Fury Warrior the sunder doesn't do damage itself?!


=)

I find it easier to explain to people that they can buff their own and the raid's dps by doing X, but I find it more challenging to convince people that it is worth helping the tanks or healers when they're dps.

PatrikL
02-16-2010, 08:01 AM
But but but, if I sunder as a Fury Warrior the sunder doesn't do damage itself?!


=)

Yeah this would probably be a good example also of what we are lacking in many raids. Would a fury warrior keeping 5 stacks of sunder up on a boss lose a significant part of his own dps or just so little that it is almost always a good idea?

Since we are on the topic of debuffs, can anyone tell me of an easy list of which debuffs applied to bosses stack and which do not?

PatrikL
02-16-2010, 08:02 AM
I find it easier to explain to people that they can buff their own and the raid's dps by doing X, but I find it more challenging to convince people that it is worth helping the tanks or healers when they're dps.

Its especially hard to get them to do these things when they know you are not happy with the damage output even while not helping the raid with these things ;)

Valalvax
02-16-2010, 10:07 AM
Yeah this would probably be a good example also of what we are lacking in many raids. Would a fury warrior keeping 5 stacks of sunder up on a boss lose a significant part of his own dps or just so little that it is almost always a good idea?

He'll lose his spot on the damage meter, but I think it winds up being just a little less actual damage

GŁth
02-16-2010, 11:04 AM
Since we are on the topic of debuffs, can anyone tell me of an easy list of which debuffs applied to bosses stack and which do not?

Debuffs in the same category will not stack together, omitted the passively applied debuffs (Master Poisoner, Blood Frenzy, etc.):

Attack Speed Reduction: Thunder Clap / Icy Touch (Death knight) / Judgements of the Just (prot paladin) / Infected Wounds (Feral druid)

Major ArP Debuffs (20%): Sunder Armor / Expose Armor (Rogue) / Acid Spit (Hunter worm pet)

Minor ArP Debuffs (5%): Faerie Fire (Druid) / Curse of Weakness (Warlock) / Sting (Hunter wasp pet)

AP Debuffs: Demoralizing Shout / Demoralizing Roar (Bear form druid) / Vindication (Paladin) / Demoralizing Screech (Hunter carrion bird pet)

Spell Hit Chance Increase (3% - Your raid): Improved Faerie Fire (Balance druid) / Misery (Shadow priest)

Hit Chance Reduction (3% - Enemy): Scorpid Sting (Hunter) / Insect Swarm (Balance druid, make sure it's unglyphed or it will not provide the hit reduction)

If I missed any I'm sorry.

Fenier
02-16-2010, 11:41 AM
AP debuffs also include Curse of Weakness

Spell Damage Taken: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of Elements

Crit Chance Taken: Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath, Master Poisoner

Spell Crit Chance Taken: Winter's Chill, Improved Shadow Bolt, Scorch

Pys Damage Taken: Blood Frenzy, Blood Poisoning

Bleed Damage: Mangle, Trauma, Stampede

Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Lava Breath, Mind-Numbing Poison, Slow

Healing Reduction: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Furious Attacks, Mortal Strike

drae
02-16-2010, 12:20 PM
MMO-Champion has a great raid comp tool here (http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/) put the specs of your raiders in and it will tell you what buffs and debuffs you should have covered.

Helps you make sure your bringing all the buff / debuffs you can. Then to track up time in WoL select the player / boss from the drop-down menus, buffs gained and buffs cast from the tabs.1062

Keep in mind that up-time on some bosses is gonna be bad regardless; Sindragosa's air phase is a prime example of a mechanic that will screw your debuff up-time. Also keep in mind that some debuffs get pushed off by others, resulting is funking up-times for given classes, an example: Imp. Thunderclap will push off Imp. icy touch and vice versa (at least that's how I understand it, it may be duration based, Im not positive). So while it appears that there up-time is bad, it's because someone else in the raid is also supplying it. I believe if you add up the players with that buff it should add up to total up-time.

PatrikL
02-16-2010, 03:35 PM
I didnt expect anyone would quote them from memory like that rather point me in some direction, so thanks a lot both GŁth and Fenier! I will try to learn these so I know them in the future.


Drae I will keep in mind that it is not always so easy to keep them up. What I am interested at least from the start is to make sure people bother to apply them at all. Some will come naturally of course. For example as an unholy DK (when I dps which is every now and then) I apply my disseases as a part of my rotation but it benefits both me and others, but there are prob a few cases where the dps dont see the need for it themselves and therefore do not bother. A good example of this would be Demo shout which I mentioned in the begining and especially so when I (as a DK) tank but have someone else who could give the AP debuff. Thanks a lot for the nice image btw, I am sure even I will find it now ;)

PatrikL
02-16-2010, 03:56 PM
So am I right in saying that when looking at some reports for for example Saurfang 25 fights and any AP debuff was only up for 30 secs during an 8 minute fight or in some fights not even that (checked all warriors, druids and locks), this really needs to be adressed in our raids? (just looked at this specific type so far since it is what brought it up)

If so I am a bit shocked at the facts that so few players know how important some of these things are. Having a warrior tank for example not making sure it is up is a bit odd I think.

How is it best done, telling people to make sure they are doing their duties in general (trusting them to remember their own after telling them what we expect in total) or assigning the duty of each type of debuff to specific players just as we do with buffs to players?

Fenier
02-16-2010, 04:11 PM
So am I right in saying that when looking at some reports for for example Saurfang 25 fights and any AP debuff was only up for 30 secs during an 8 minute fight or in some fights not even that (checked all warriors, druids and locks), this really needs to be adressed in our raids? (just looked at this specific type so far since it is what brought it up)

If so I am a bit shocked at the facts that so few players know how important some of these things are. Having a warrior tank for example not making sure it is up is a bit odd I think.

How is it best done, telling people to make sure they are doing their duties in general (trusting them to remember their own after telling them what we expect in total) or assigning the duty of each type of debuff to specific players just as we do with buffs to players?

Saurfang doesn't hit -that- hard, but you'd still make it much easier to heal other people during Marks of the Fallen Champion or what have you if your tanks are taking 15% or so less damage every melee attack. 25 Man raids are balanced around having that Debuff in particular. You are putting much more strain on your tanks and healers if you don't use it.

In an ideal world people would just do it. But in the actual world you may have to tell them. You may have to tell them a few times. If they refuse you may tell them their raid slot depends on their ability to play and refusal to apply one of the strongest debuffs in the game doesn't reflect well on their class knowledge. Some encounters hit hard enough, Festergut as a prime example that failure to apply an AP debuff will likely kill your tank unless your healers are really on the ball.

Not all Debuffs are critical to being applied all the time, but in general a Melee Slow and AP Debuff in 25 man is standard, and all tanks aside from DKs can apply both. Read http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?63007-AP-Debuffs-Explained if you haven't.

DPS related buffs (be it Melee or Caster) will vary in importance based raid makeup. That said If all your warriors DPS only, one of them is should suffer the slight DPS loss for a overall DPS gain by applying Sunder Armor, and so forth.

PatrikL
02-17-2010, 02:40 AM
No I know he isnt too bad but he was the first example I found in our logs where we had plenty of warriors including one tank on not a single one of them had applied the AP debuff. Festergut we havent tried yet on 25 since I did the math and saw that we were no where close on the dps requirement. I seriously doubt that any AP debuff was applied in 10 man either (but dont have logs for the fights unfortunately).

One problem has been that we have for some reason formed new groups each weeks so far and are just starting this week to make set groups. Hopefully I will get a nice group together and try to balance it around not only the buffs people can give but also the debuffs.

I think I know what needs to be done to improve a bit, now I just need to make sure the rest understand. Thanks a lot for all the help guys!

swelt
02-17-2010, 10:12 AM
A lightweight addon that does this is Debuff Guardian (which is a rip of the classic DeMon): http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/debuffguardian.aspx

If your tanks aren't keeping their debuffs up, maybe encourage them to try this out.

Kazeyonoma
02-17-2010, 10:22 AM
although it is harder for say Arms warriors to put up debuffs due to being GCD locked, they still should do what they can if no one else can apply it. The difference between a lot of successful guilds and those that just bash their heads on bosses that shouldn't be taht difficult is the proper usage of buffs/debuffs/teamwork. Players who are selfish enough to not even put up a debuff for 30 seconds at the cost of 1 gcd are doing your raid a disservice, it makes healing harder, tank death more real, and just shows how little the person cares for the success of 9 or 24 other people. Fury warriors have NO excuse not to put up these debuffs, they have open GCDs all the time, if you have more than 1 dps warrior, have them all stack the sunder debuff to 5 asap, then have 1 fury warrior be in charge of tracking/keeping it up, and another warrior keep up demo. Seriously. If a healer were to forget to throw up fortitude or blessing of kings, the entire raid would complain about how terrible that person is, yet dps is allowed to not put up debuffs? cmon.

drae
02-17-2010, 01:26 PM
Drae I will keep in mind that it is not always so easy to keep them up. What I am interested at least from the start is to make sure people bother to apply them at all. Some will come naturally of course. For example as an unholy DK (when I dps which is every now and then) I apply my disseases as a part of my rotation but it benefits both me and others, but there are prob a few cases where the dps dont see the need for it themselves and therefore do not bother. A good example of this would be Demo shout which I mentioned in the begining and especially so when I (as a DK) tank but have someone else who could give the AP debuff. Thanks a lot for the nice image btw, I am sure even I will find it now ;)

I am afraid I could have explained something better:

Even if I cast say.. demo shout every 10s, and a paladin (with vindication - also an AP debuff) is attacking the boss, he could be overwriting my debuff. Even tho I am apply demo frequently enough to have 100% uptime the log will show ~15%, due to the paladin overwriting my buff. It looks bad on WoL, but I'm doing nothing wrong outside of wasting GCD's. I used to notice this with a frost DK in my group, overwriting my TC all the time with icy touch; for the longest time I couldn't figure out where my TC was going. I downloaded auracle then realized the debuff was active, but MY debuff was being overwritten.

Hope that's clearer.

PatrikL
02-17-2010, 10:51 PM
I am afraid I could have explained something better:

Even if I cast say.. demo shout every 10s, and a paladin (with vindication - also an AP debuff) is attacking the boss, he could be overwriting my debuff. Even tho I am apply demo frequently enough to have 100% uptime the log will show ~15%, due to the paladin overwriting my buff. It looks bad on WoL, but I'm doing nothing wrong outside of wasting GCD's. I used to notice this with a frost DK in my group, overwriting my TC all the time with icy touch; for the longest time I couldn't figure out where my TC was going. I downloaded auracle then realized the debuff was active, but MY debuff was being overwritten.

Hope that's clearer.

Crystal, and I'm pretty sure this wont be our first problem. Did have a look at deduffs a bit more yesterday during our raid when we wiped on Rotface at 0.1% (yes about 5k hp left)... Worst I've ever seen but was great fun since we havent done him before, haha

Fenier
02-18-2010, 10:18 AM
You ideally are not looking at 100% up time from any given person, but up time on similar effects.

You want, between all your raiders, to have as close to 100% up time on Melee Slow, AP Debuff, Spell Damage Increase and so forth.

Astemus
02-18-2010, 11:25 AM
I'm sure that you could set up power auras to track this, though it would be a bit of work. However, it would allow you to easily see when a debuff isn't up without trying to study a list of buffs during battle.

taleden
02-23-2010, 08:30 PM
Auracle is designed almost exactly for what you describe: there are multiple debuffs that have the same effect (Sunder Armor, Expose Armor, etc) and you want to make sure one of them is applied, but you don't care which one. Auracle lets you set up trackers for each category of debuff, and list all the debuffs that should fulfill that category; then it's very easy to see when any given category is satisfied or not, no matter which of the applicable debuffs is present in any given category.

Recent versions even have most of the categories built-in as presets -- just add the "- Armor", "+ Spell Dmg Taken", etc. to monitor all the categories.

However, Auracle does not yet support any logging or analysis, so you can't use it to determine after a fight what the uptimes were for all those categories. It's purpose is to give you a quick, easy, one-glance spot to check if something is missing during a fight, so you can reapply it.