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View Full Version : Tanking Talents in arms/fury for prot warrs?



Ivey
02-14-2010, 10:36 AM
What abilities shud I put talent points in the arms and/or fury tree?
What are the best ones to get as high threat per second? And why?
Please consider the 1st set bonus in t10 warrior tank gear.

Open for discussion!

Aggathon
02-14-2010, 12:56 PM
Check the talents section in my guide, link in sig. It's been discussed at lot, but frankly 3.3.2 changes nothing except dropping imp revenge. I talk about it in my guide and give two different specs to choose from (the survival 5/15/51 spec and the typical cookie cutter 15/3/51 +2 points anywhere spec).

Ivey
02-15-2010, 07:24 AM
First off Id like to thank you for the really good page about warr tanking you´ve made! :D

A few questions then..

Did I put my thread in the right section on this forum?

Now some theory qstions:

I wear

Ymirjar Lord's Breastplate


Ymirjar Lord's Plate (2/5)


(2) Set: Your Shield Slam and Shockwave abilities deal 20% increased damage.
(4) Set: Your Bloodrage ability no longer costs health to use, and now causes you to absorb damage equal to 20% of your maximum health. Lasts until cancelled.



And the leggings in that set, and aiming to get the gloves from frosties or VoA if Im lucky : )

I want the gloves now cus of the extra armour.


Now that Blizzard is giving us much more armour from items, wudnt then "armored to the teath" become even better as threat builder? Doesnt rly matter tho since you have that specced it in both your tank specs but just mentioning it.

Any how, when we see the set bonus for to item, Your Shield Slam and Shockwave abilities deal 20% increased damage. Wudnt that make us want to improve our SS even more, and dont we want to crit as much as possible with that, for threat gain? I use ofcourse "critical block". So from my gear I get 5% crit baseically, from crit block additionaly 15% and IF I spec Cruelty I get 5% extra. With cruelty my SS with crit every 4th hit, but without cruelty crit every 5th hit, 20% or 25%.

But thats not all, also count in:

Sword and BoardRank 3Increases the critical strike chance of your Devastate ability by 15% and when your Devastate or Revenge ability deals damage it has a 30% chance of refreshing the cooldown of your Shield Slam ability and reducing its cost by 100% for 5 sec.

This talent makes SS much more rage beneficial and much more often usable.




What I dont understand is why...


Deep WoundsRank 3Requires Melee Weapon
Your critical strikes cause the opponent to bleed, dealing 48% of your melee weapon's average damage over 6 sec.

...will do more TPS than Cruelty? And if even it is rage saving considering your SS CD is refreshed by Sword and board?

48% of 250-450 dmg over 6 seconds, 60 dps or what will that be? 6*60=360.

Bonebreaker Scepter

MaceOne-Hand
244-454 DmgSpeed 1.70
(205.3 damage per second)

Isnt that a "piss in mississippi" when u have 15 others doing 6-10k dps at the same target? Even considering the extra threat warr tanks have in def stance and what ever?


Am I totally stupid for not understanding why Deep wounds is better than Cruelty for my TPS?
I am currently tanking Rotface and Festergut. And I keep the agro But with the deep wounds spec. Wonder if Cruelty is better instead?

Is even...
ImpaleRank 2Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your abilities by 20%.

..good talent economics without Cruelty?



Another question is, should I skip talents in revenge and skip using it when I tank bosses all together? Whats the theory behind this?

Aggathon
02-15-2010, 08:39 AM
I think I'll let Kojiyama respond to the thread because he's much more numbery than I to prove this, but a few things.

1) As far gear, the frost badge items are typically better than the tier gear until 277, so I would go T10 helm/shoulders then badge chest/gloves/and crafted legs. The badge chest and gloves both have more armor than the 264 versions of tier, but not the 277 versions.

2) Yes, impale/deep wounds are significantly better. Since warriors get a lot of innate crit talents in the prot tree (crit block, incite, etc.) warriors actually crit a lot, even without cruelty. Deep wounds is pretty much always up and it "rolls" meaning any damage left over on the one you wrote over with your new crit gets added to the new deep wounds tick. Deep wounds ends up being roughly 7% of your damage which is huge, and those 5 talents (impale+dw) are by far the best threat talents you can pick up

3) Cruelty point for point is pretty bad, Kojiyama has all the math to back that up.

4) The set bonus is increased damage, not increased critical damage, meaning it's going to be more threat regardless if you crit or not

5) Yes, armed to the teeth is awesome

6) as far as the deep wounds weapon modifier, you need to look at your melee tooltip on your character, not the weapon itself iirc. So that's actually going to be a lot more than 360 dmg over 6 seconds.

Ivey
02-15-2010, 08:58 AM
Ok Id like Kojiyama to show me that math. Think Im gonna ask him.

But isnt crit dmg increased double of normal amout so it wud be even more with higher dmg from set bonus?

Thanx for answear so far.

Ivey
02-15-2010, 09:24 AM
ok my wep dlg is 779-1000. 900/6= 150. So 150 dmg per sec?

SS crits are like 5-10k...


Why dont you use imp rend in your threat spec btw?

My raidleaders tells me I shud never charge a raidboss because the healers will have a tuff time healing me initially, so improved charge then sux for raidboss tanking.

Ivey
02-15-2010, 09:27 AM
"2) Yes, impale/deep wounds are significantly better. Since warriors get a lot of innate crit talents in the prot tree (crit block, incite, etc.) warriors actually crit a lot, even without cruelty. Deep wounds is pretty much always up and it "rolls" meaning any damage left over on the one you wrote over with your new crit gets added to the new deep wounds tick. Deep wounds ends up being roughly 7% of your damage which is huge, and those 5 talents (impale+dw) are by far the best threat talents you can pick up"


So your saying DW is stackin in a way. But every application of it is not renewed by a new one? That explains alot!

Kojiyama
02-15-2010, 09:30 AM
Raid-buffed, the majority of your abilities will have a 25-30% chance to crit. That means Cruelty is roughly a 0.76% damage increase without Impale. It's not a whole lot.

The thing about Deep Wounds is that:
a) It scales with weapon damage and attack power
b) It's not affected by Armor
c) It's affected by Trauma and/or other +Bleed multipliers on the target

Deep Wounds is thus a 30% chance to add 900-930 damage to nearly every rotational ability you have. That adds up to be a lot more than Cruelty per point.

Per point, Cruelty is worth only 37 DPS even with Deep Wounds/Impale...without them, it is only worth 21 DPS per point. Deep Wounds is worth 137 DPS per point without Cruelty. Impale is worth 73 DPS per point without Cruelty.

Therefore, 5 points in Deep Wounds 3/3 and Impale 2/2 is worth 557 DPS or so, while 5 points in Cruelty is worth 105. Not really much of a contest. :)

Ivey
02-15-2010, 10:01 AM
My questions to you guys are not in an arrogant tone but in a humble tone ok.

But how did u come up with the number 0.76%? And the rest of the numbers? Where is the calculations on this?


b) not affected by bosses armour you mean?

c) your saying my DW is boosted by trauma of dps warrs(not me) and others bleed things in raid?

Aggathon
02-15-2010, 11:42 AM
There's a debuff that either feral druids(mangle) or arms warriors(trauma) can put up that increases bleed damage by 30%.

He probably gets the numbers from Rawr, it's a pretty good tool for things like that.

Also cruelty is only a 5% chance to crit, you seem to assume that you're going to get crit shield slams if you spec it, but you're only getting an additional 5 crits out of every 100 shield slams. I think with S&B you average like 1 SS per 4.5 seconds. We'll round that down to 4 for math's sake. lets say that a fight is 5 minutes (300 seconds) long. that's 75 shield slams if you're doing it right. at about 20% (which is what you'd be without cruelty) you're going to get roughly 15 crits out of that, at 25%, you're getting about 19 crits, so only 4 more crits. That's really not that significant of an increase compared to the overall total damage/threat done with impale/deep wounds.

Yes, he means boss armor.

And the DW ticks are renewed by a new one (so you won't have like 5 DW debuffs up at a time or w/e) but the renewed deep wounds has the damage left over that the previous DW didn't deal because it got refreshed added to it.

Edit: I also don't have imp rend spec'd because you shouldn't be rending as a tank, every other GCD ability provides more threat.

Ivey
02-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Ok thank you I find all this info very useful!

Ivey
02-15-2010, 03:01 PM
About rotation. When MTing bosses.

I use heroic strike, devastate(glyphed), shield slam and shock wave. Not in that particular order tho. And blood rage and berz rage if needed. Not revenge anymore now : ) Com shout ofc, and demo shout if no pala debuff.
Is shockwave worth my while? Is conc blow worth it?

What is prio #1 of heroic strike, devastate, shield slam? Assuming u have lots of rage.

Aggathon
02-15-2010, 04:54 PM
TPS wise, especially if you have the 2 set, yes shockwave is worth it. I think conc blow is too, but it's not as good DPS now (still same TPS).

Since HS is queued on the auto swing timer, it doesn't need to take priority over another ability, but rather it is dependent upon how much rage you have. A lot of people will keep it queued as long as they are above 40 rage, I prefer lower in the 20-30 rage range.

Shield slam is by far the highest threat ability (although shockwave might be higher, I don't remember, I basically hit shockwave and conc blow on cooldown).

Basically it's a priority thing, with shield slam taking the most priority, otherwise it's devastate/hs spam (I actually have a macro that que's HS every time I hit devastate so my HS uptime is really high provided I'm not rage starved), and then using Shockwave/Conq Blow on cooldown.

Ivey
02-16-2010, 07:49 AM
Thanx!

I will now unashamedly use alot of shockwave and CB(nerf blizzards nerfing!). Did they reduce dmg on CB cus of pvping or why?



I use these two macros:

#showtooltip Devastate
/cast Devastate(Rank 5)
/cast !Heroic Strike(Rank 13)


#showtooltip Shield Slam(Rank 8)
/cast Shield Slam(Rank 8)
/cast Shield Block
/cast Bloodrage (ye I use the glyf of BR)




BTW is here any thread that discusses the proc-rate of trinkets and such?

Bashal
02-16-2010, 08:29 AM
My raidleaders tells me I shud never charge a raidboss because the healers will have a tuff time healing me initially, so improved charge then sux for raidboss tanking.

Might be worth mentioning this to your raid leader: That charge gives you good rage to grab initial aggro. If the healers follow more closely behind you, when you charge you won't be out of their range. Healers need to be aware that with a warrior or bear tank, they charge, its part of how their toons work, and they need to adapt appropriately, instead of sitting back all lazy-like and expecting all tanks to behave exactly the same....

On some fights in particular it may be a bad idea, but never? Really?

Ivey
02-16-2010, 09:18 AM
Might be worth mentioning this to your raid leader: That charge gives you good rage to grab initial aggro. If the healers follow more closely behind you, when you charge you won't be out of their range. Healers need to be aware that with a warrior or bear tank, they charge, its part of how their toons work, and they need to adapt appropriately, instead of sitting back all lazy-like and expecting all tanks to behave exactly the same....

On some fights in particular it may be a bad idea, but never? Really?


I agree in general. Not that I want to call my healers lazy tho. But the general idea.

Bashal
02-16-2010, 09:25 AM
Not that I want to call my healers lazy tho.

Lol. They may not be lazy. They probably aren't lazy in a general sense. But warriors charging in is kind of standard (at least to me). Not accounting for that and saying "tell him not to charge, he went out of range" comes off as lazy QQ, though, when the fix to that issue is so straightforward.

That's all I meant. :)

Aggathon
02-16-2010, 09:56 AM
#showtooltip Shield Slam(Rank 8)
/cast Shield Slam(Rank 8)
/cast Shield Block
/cast Bloodrage (ye I use the glyf of BR)

I don't like this macro because I prefer to micro manage shield block and blood rage. If they're macro'd into shield slam, then that means that you are prioritizing them for threat only, when shield block is a really good defensive cooldown. I can critical block almost 8k damage with shield block up, which against a boss that hits for 20k, is almost as effective as shield wall. There will be some times where you don't need the threat from shield block and should be saving it for defensive times, and you don't want to hit blood rage when at 100 rage, save it for when you get rage starved imo. No, it's not as easy, but it will make you a better warrior. IMO the proper use of shield block is one of the things that ends up clearly delineating between good prot warriors and bad prot warriors.

Ivey
02-16-2010, 10:24 AM
OK I thouigh shield block something I just shud have up as much as possible for mitigating as much as possible during the whole fight! And also get more bang in the Shield Slam due to increased blockvalue..

I think Im gonna try out your tacs on this ty!

Aggathon
02-16-2010, 10:29 AM
OK I thouigh shield block something I just shud have up as much as possible for mitigating as much as possible during the whole fight! And also get more bang in the Shield Slam due to increased blockvalue..


If you're talking about overall damage over time, sure, but decreased damage over time isn't what kills tanks these days (aka healer mana isn't really a problem provided your healers know wtf to do, if they don't, then that's their fault, not yours). There are crucial times where using shield block can mean the difference between a wipe and kill, for example when a taunt switch happens and the healers have to switch who they are healing, or like on putricide when you have to drag him away from the raid so he doesn't drop gas bombs on top of whoever is getting focused by the green slime and you might stretch your healer's max range and they're trying to heal the slime target too, etc. etc.

Ivey
02-16-2010, 10:52 AM
Btw. Is there any good outdoor elites i can practise and watch procs and hits and such on in Nortrend? The lvl?? elites like "Hailscorn" in the Avalanche in Sholazar nukes pretty hard but are a bit messy sometimes. Any other suggestions? Bone-giants and co in Icecrown doesnt rly hit hard enough imo.

Aggathon
02-16-2010, 11:13 AM
I think some people grab a healer and tank Thrym, but that's not going to be as accurate, you really need to just tank a boss and look over combat logs from it using like WoL.