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View Full Version : Getting rid of a problem raider...did I handle this correctly? (wall o' text inc)



Musclebound
02-01-2010, 01:20 PM
I am an officer and raid leader for a casual 10 man guild. Recently, we've had problems with one of our newer members.

First, some background on our situation :
Currently we are only able to field one 10 man team per raid night, due to the lack of experienced tanks and leaders, despite my best efforts to try and cultivate new blood.This is becoming a problem because we generally have 16-17 people sign up, but most of the extras are dps, so we can't just put a second team together for them. Also, we are extremely heavy on druid healers, including our "problem member'. I'm not a stickler for class composition but taking a raid half full of druids (we also have a feral and boomkin who raid regularly) is just ridiculous.

Now our problem member left the game right after icecrown was released because he was moving. No big deal, we don't require anyone to attend raids or anything and we don't remove somebody from the guild for inactivity if we know they're coming back. The problem is, when he came back 6 weeks later, he seemed to feel entitled to a raid spot. Now he was a capable healer, but not amazingly. He also tended to rub people the wrong way, because he had trouble accepting criticism himself but was quick to point the finger at others, tended to whine and pretty much had to have the last word in every discussion. Any time I brought him to a raid we ended up calling the raid earlier than normal because his personality would end up tainting the mood of the entire raid group. For example : He let people die from Deathbringer's mark then blamed everyone around him for not letting him know when the mark was on them and when it fell off. THis was after I'd explained to him that once the mark has been placed on someone it remains til the end of the fight. He also blamed our hunter after he got eaten alive by a blood beast, even though I had explained several times that it was every individuals responsibility to stay out of melee range of them. We ended up calling that night after getting Deathbringer down to less than 10% because people were just too tired of dealing with his crap to keep going. Understandably, as the raid leader, I was frustrated that I had to call a raid when we were that close to success because of one members bad behavior.

Aside from his behavior in raid, he wasn't much better anywhere else. He came online one tuesday recently and berated the GM and I for not scheduling a raid that night, and he had skipped a work function to be there and so on and so forth. We pulled him into our officer channel on vent and explained to him, repeatedly, that our raid schedule was Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday, because that schedule was what worked best for most of our members, that we weren't going to change that for any one person, and that we neither asked nor expected him to skip any function in real life to be there, especially when we hadn't anounced a raid for that evening. He told us that he was thinking that maybe he needed to move on to another guild, and we told him we wouldn't have any hard feelings, but that if he was thinking of leaving he should be willing to follow through, that we weren't going to tolerate it if he was just going to threaten to leave every time he didn't get his way. His response was to take one of his alts out of the guild. Our GM wanted to remove the rest of his characters at that time but I talked him out of it.
This brings us to the week before last.I brought this member as our raid healer for ICC 10. (We usually run two healers, with a dps that can duel spec to heals if the fight requires a 3rd) We cleared The Lower Spire and got to Rotface. After two attempts several raid members started having severe latency issues. Not wanting to replace anybody this far in, I went into another channel with them on vent and started troubleshooting their connection issues with them, had them turn off addons, reboot modems, etc. Basic stuff but it took a while. After about 15 minutes our "Problem Child" decided he had enough of waiting, and hearthed out and ninja logged without so much as saying a word. At that point the GM and I talked and decided that this guy wasn't going to be coming to our Progression nights again any time soon. We were already beginning to think that the guild would be better off without him, but we tend to be pretty forgiving and weren't ready to take any drastic action just yet.

Fast forward to Friday (the 29th) I had posted our shcedule for the week tuesday morning as always. Wednesday, as always, is our farm night (Weekly raid + toc 10 man, unless the weekly happens to be marrowgar. Then we just do ToC). Friday was our first night in ICecrown, and I had posted on the event that I was passing out invites 15 minutes before the event was scheduled to start. Problem Child didn't sign up. I breathed a sigh of relief at that. So I put the raid together and we zone in about 10 minutes before start time, to start buffing, give people a chance to buy any gear they need from the vendors or whatnot. 4 minutes before the raid started he signed up on the calendar then sent me a tell asking me if we were full. I told him that I had sent out invites 10 minutes ago and yes, we were full. He told me he was going to go ahead and pug then, and I told him to feel free. I figured that would be the end of it, but no such luck. What follows is verbatim from my chatlogs (Name's removed)

20:34 [Problem Child]: i wish you guys would post crap like a week prior so i have a chance to sign up it would be great
20:35 [Me]: its been up since tuesday night. you've been on more than once since then and didnt even have the courtesy to sign up until 4 minutes before first pull, when i even put on the event that i was sending out invites 15 minutes before
20:36 [Problem Child]: i just saw it
20:36 [Me]: well thats not my problem
20:36 [Problem Child]: dont matter im leaving soon anyway
20:36 [Me]: dont let the door hit you on the way out
20:36 [Problem Child]: piss off

I admit I got a little heated with him, but I feel that I maintained my composure very well under the circumstances. Anyway, at that point our GM decided he'd had enough and dropped the banhammer on our Problem Child. We explained in guild chat that he'd been berating both of us over our raid schedule and invites for several weeks and what had happened that night. I grabbed a beer to calm down and we continued the raid for the night, half an hour late due to the drama and me needing to calm down afterwards.

Now this hasn't been the first time we've had problems like this, although this is the worst case so far, and I'm sure it won't be the last. So my question is, could we have handled this differently, and more importantly, should we have?

Bashal
02-01-2010, 01:30 PM
A less casual guild would have booted him sooner.

OTOH even a casual guild concerned about minimizing drama might have booted him sooner.

I'm a fan of removing people who cause more trouble than they are worth.

In all though, you did fine. The guy was a jerk, with a level of self-entitlement which never fails to completely blow my mind whenever I come across it.

You got a little heated with someone who had been begging for a smack in the face, figuratively speaking. I wouldn't waste time worrying about that aspect of it either. ;)

Bodasafa
02-01-2010, 02:30 PM
The problem is, when he came back 6 weeks later, he seemed to feel entitled to a raid spot.

If someone leaves for an extended period of time they get replaced by someone who is available. When the original person gets back they have to work there way back in. Just the way it is and the way it should be.



Now he was a capable healer, but not amazingly. He also tended to rub people the wrong way, because he had trouble accepting criticism himself but was quick to point the finger at others, tended to whine and pretty much had to have the last word in every discussion. Any time I brought him to a raid we ended up calling the raid earlier than normal because his personality would end up tainting the mood of the entire raid group.

Attitude is right up there with skill, performance, and gear. Most guilds would have written him off and ignored him as soon as this bad attitude pattern established itself. Had the guy not realized he needed to move on because he was being ignored and started butting heads with the management he would just be kicked along with all of his alts in an instant.

I think you guys handled it fine and with far more patience than most.

Primebeef
02-02-2010, 03:42 AM
I think it's great you don't kick someone out at the first infringement. It's always good to allow some elbow room and flexibility. Each player have their own chip on the shoulder and part of being the GM of a guild is weathering the storm and trying to keep the guild happy on and off the raid field.

The line is drawn when a player's behaviour is consistently detrimental to the raid and to extension to the guild. Also, once you find yourself as a GM/Officer spending way too much time dealing with one player when compared to the rest of the guild, that's the time to begin considering kicking him out.

Based on everything you've laid out though here, this guy should be removed from the guild. He has zero allegiance towards your guild and is only there for himself. If he could find a better place (in his perception) he'd have left you already. In addition, it's clear that he's not going to change his attitude whatsoever. To put it mildly, he does not fit in with the rest of the guild.

The troubles that he's caused over this extended period of time, again going by what you said, means that you(the guild) are better off without him.

Fayre
02-02-2010, 08:21 AM
You totally did the right thing. You gave him plenty of chances.

You are a guild officer, not a guild punchbag.

thecrazyman
02-02-2010, 08:29 AM
The way you went about the issue is "good" and "not so good". The good part is giving the member the ablity to self correct the issue "if" they are willing to do so. Some of the time members are unaware they are causing issues and try to fix the issue once they are made aware of it. Now the "not so good" part is referring to issues that if you were having issues with him whats the chance other members did as well? Let alone what happens if a new member joining see's this attitude towards or from the bad member. Maybe the new member will not want to be part of this drama and you could lose newer members over it. Guild drama affects all members and any new or older member may not want to be part of it.

I have dealt with members of this nature before and they always end up the member moving on. The rule I used to go with is if they meniton moving on I tell them to go and no hard feelings like you did. If they stick around after stating that and cause more issues then I would of been on the GM side to kick him then and there. Although maybe not for the log out but if he started causing another issue of the same type. The only time that I ever had issues around long standing members is when they got in there head they were always needed (i.e. can't raid without them).

As for the sign up and raid times - the thought that comes to mind is maybe moving has changed his raid times.

Musclebound
02-02-2010, 09:46 AM
The way you went about the issue is "good" and "not so good". The good part is giving the member the ablity to self correct the issue "if" they are willing to do so. Some of the time members are unaware they are causing issues and try to fix the issue once they are made aware of it. Now the "not so good" part is referring to issues that if you were having issues with him whats the chance other members did as well? Let alone what happens if a new member joining see's this attitude towards or from the bad member. Maybe the new member will not want to be part of this drama and you could lose newer members over it. Guild drama affects all members and any new or older member may not want to be part of it.

I have dealt with members of this nature before and they always end up the member moving on. The rule I used to go with is if they meniton moving on I tell them to go and no hard feelings like you did. If they stick around after stating that and cause more issues then I would of been on the GM side to kick him then and there. Although maybe not for the log out but if he started causing another issue of the same type. The only time that I ever had issues around long standing members is when they got in there head they were always needed (i.e. can't raid without them).

As for the sign up and raid times - the thought that comes to mind is maybe moving has changed his raid times.

We definitely had members complaining about him and refusing to come to raids if he was in him. After his blamefest after our wipe on Saurfang, we sort of knew he had to go. I had forgot to mention that night (the night he started pointing blame at everyone else for the wipe after he blatantly just stopped healing the person with Mark of the Fallen Champion and let them die) when we were putting the raid together, he had signed up on the calendar but was nowhere to be found. Until I noticed him in Icecrown on his hunter in another guild! We should have just booted him then, but we couldn't get anybody else to come into Icecrown that week since Marrowgar was the weekly, and nobody wanted to get saved if they couldnt get credit for the weekly quest. So we made him ditch the other guild and bring his druid back into our raid. I felt bad for the other guild, but he shouldn't have committed to them knowing he'd already made a commitment to be there for us.

I'm still concerned that he might be an issue for us further down the road, as the guild he left us for is actually in a raid alliance with us and another guild for 25 man content. So far he hasnt shown up to any of the 25 mans (I removed him from the event this past week after he left the guiild) but with all the anger so many of our members feel towards him (my guild usually brings 8-10 members to the 25 man, the other guild brings about the same, with the guild Problem Child went to bringing 4-5 usually) I could see a huge blowup happening if he were to just show up one of these saturdays.

Also - to clarify, I am not the GM. I'm an officer and Raid Leader but I don't have the authority to remove people from the guild. I don't want it. I don't trust myself to not act out of anger and I think the guild would be empty pretty quick if I had the ability.

Bashal
02-02-2010, 10:11 AM
I'm still concerned that he might be an issue for us further down the road, as the guild he left us for is actually in a raid alliance with us and another guild for 25 man content. So far he hasnt shown up to any of the 25 mans (I removed him from the event this past week after he left the guiild) but with all the anger so many of our members feel towards him (my guild usually brings 8-10 members to the 25 man, the other guild brings about the same, with the guild Problem Child went to bringing 4-5 usually) I could see a huge blowup happening if he were to just show up one of these saturdays.

When and if that occurs, I'd say it is time to look for a different guild to partner with.

However: you can take some steps to minimize or forestall this possiblity. Talk to the officers & GM in the other guild, explain your side of why he was removed, and your concerns should he engage in mud-flinging in one of your joint raids. See what they say about it. They may even decide that if he acts up, he's not worth keeping there either -- and I can pretty much guarantee if he was an ass in your guild, he'll be an ass in theirs. He's probably playing nice at the moment cause he's new, but sooner or later he'll revert back to his old, unlovable, self.

thecrazyman
02-02-2010, 11:17 AM
Just a bit back ground more on my role - I was the raid leader / officer in charge (90% of the time) without the power to change policy. I was given the right to kick people but never did.

Now for your concerns when it comes to raiding you have a few choices all bad (starting with the least worse).

1. Talk to your partner guild about him and tell him the reason he was removed. Also mention that the numbers from your side going to the guild have been reduced due to the factor of him being in that guild.

2. Mention to the parnter guild on all the reasons he left - be specific and detailed. Mention on how many members roughly will not raid with him and thus there 25 mans may stop.

3. Mention to the partner guild that he was removed from your guild and should not be present in any of our 25 man raiding with your guild.

The last option is pretty much a breaker of 2 guild 25 man teams. That’s not to say that he hasn't shown his ability to be the person you know him to be in that guild too.

There is another side to this as well on why did he leave to join them? Do they look like they are trying to take your members away? I know he is a bad one but none the less one of your raiders.

The only thing is my normal rule is when dealing with items such as this is only talk to people that I trust in the new guild he/she joined about the member that left. This keeps me informed via from them as well when they get bad members that join us. We usually both come to a desicion on our own to remove them but I always give them a "chance" to change.

The main issue to get off the table is once you know there stance on it then you can make your decision on how you want to handle it. One thought that has to be in your mind is what is the best for your fellow guildie's because even them have stated that they don't like him as a player (by not showing up / signing up) for the 25 man's.

Musclebound
02-02-2010, 12:44 PM
Just a bit back ground more on my role - I was the raid leader / officer in charge (90% of the time) without the power to change policy. I was given the right to kick people but never did.

Now for your concerns when it comes to raiding you have a few choices all bad (starting with the least worse).

1. Talk to your partner guild about him and tell him the reason he was removed. Also mention that the numbers from your side going to the guild have been reduced due to the factor of him being in that guild.

2. Mention to the parnter guild on all the reasons he left - be specific and detailed. Mention on how many members roughly will not raid with him and thus there 25 mans may stop.

3. Mention to the partner guild that he was removed from your guild and should not be present in any of our 25 man raiding with your guild.

The last option is pretty much a breaker of 2 guild 25 man teams. That’s not to say that he hasn't shown his ability to be the person you know him to be in that guild too.

There is another side to this as well on why did he leave to join them? Do they look like they are trying to take your members away? I know he is a bad one but none the less one of your raiders.

The only thing is my normal rule is when dealing with items such as this is only talk to people that I trust in the new guild he/she joined about the member that left. This keeps me informed via from them as well when they get bad members that join us. We usually both come to a desicion on our own to remove them but I always give them a "chance" to change.

The main issue to get off the table is once you know there stance on it then you can make your decision on how you want to handle it. One thought that has to be in your mind is what is the best for your fellow guildie's because even them have stated that they don't like him as a player (by not showing up / signing up) for the 25 man's.

From what I can tell, Problem Child split his 4 80s up between several guilds. One of them (the one he took out during our original argument 2-3 weeks ago) went to this guild. I didn't even happen to notice that it was one of the guilds we raid 25s with until much later, because I don't go to those very often, and one of the other guilds usually puts them together. (There are 3 guilds involved, and the one that Problem Child went to usually only brings 3-5 members to the raid, with us and the 3rd guild making up the rest). So far nobody in my guild has refused to sign up for the 25s because they *might* run into Problem Child but, like I said, I could see it being an issue if he were to get invited one week.

thecrazyman
02-02-2010, 01:29 PM
Ah well if he has split up his toons across multiple guilds then I would only worry about the one you raid with mainly. Their could be one thing to add is that if you do talk to your 10 man guild you run with to do 25 mans it would be to inquire how his preformance been when it comes to his ablity to raid and show up? From my history of multiple toons to 1 raiders usually ends up into a drama / burn out of the person. I know some can handle 2 but when it gets higher to 3 and up its gets more challenging on "who" to raid with more.

It could be very well that he can manage them all but from what you mention before about him "forgetting" it could be an issue within these other guilds too. Some time people promise more then they can deliver and in this case there is only so much time in a week. This could also be why he wanted to get to raid with you guys on a non-schedule raid night. Maybe he is trying to stick it out for the friend that is in there but enjoy's raiding with the other guilds more.

All in all the quicker you get this matter closed the faster you can move on to more important things (such as raiding). One thing I can't stand is when drama affects raiding to the point were members don't want to show up. All it does is slow progression of any guild so the faster it is resolved the better and the longer its drawed out the worse things get.

Musclebound
02-02-2010, 03:06 PM
Ah well if he has split up his toons across multiple guilds then I would only worry about the one you raid with mainly. Their could be one thing to add is that if you do talk to your 10 man guild you run with to do 25 mans it would be to inquire how his preformance been when it comes to his ablity to raid and show up? From my history of multiple toons to 1 raiders usually ends up into a drama / burn out of the person. I know some can handle 2 but when it gets higher to 3 and up its gets more challenging on "who" to raid with more.

It could be very well that he can manage them all but from what you mention before about him "forgetting" it could be an issue within these other guilds too. Some time people promise more then they can deliver and in this case there is only so much time in a week. This could also be why he wanted to get to raid with you guys on a non-schedule raid night. Maybe he is trying to stick it out for the friend that is in there but enjoy's raiding with the other guilds more.

All in all the quicker you get this matter closed the faster you can move on to more important things (such as raiding). One thing I can't stand is when drama affects raiding to the point were members don't want to show up. All it does is slow progression of any guild so the faster it is resolved the better and the longer its drawed out the worse things get..
Well, what we're going to do is talk with the other two guilds and explain the circumstances, why some of our raiders are uncomfortable with him and may not want to come if he shows up. I guess a couple of people in the other guilds have complained about him before so it shouldn't be a hard point to sell.
We've also decided that if this situation occurs again, we're going to nip it in the bud rather than let it fester like it did this time around. I'm sure it won't be the last time we have somebody like this join the guild, no matter how careful we are.

Dralnu
02-03-2010, 03:44 AM
I agree with Bodasafa's comment that you handled the 'Problem' fine and with far more patience than most guilds would have.

I am lucky enough to have enjoyed several different guilds within my time playing WOW and I honestly believe that raid atmosphere is as important (if not more important) than skill. If you have 1 member spoiling the atmosphere of a raid for several others then its better to replace the 1 bad seed.

One quote that has confused me is the bit about missing a work function because of expecting a raid, I dont believe this quote because the behaviour of 'the problem' have exampled in your post is not typical of a person of working age and much more prevelant in school children.

I would also agree that discussing 'the problem' with officers of your partner guild who have accepted him into their ranks is required as again, this may spoil raid atmosphere in the future.

Bashal
02-03-2010, 09:04 AM
One quote that has confused me is the bit about missing a work function because of expecting a raid, I dont believe this quote because the behaviour of 'the problem' have exampled in your post is not typical of a person of working age and much more prevelant in school children.

I have met adults on several occasions who display worse behavior than a spoiled child. Adulthood =/= maturity. :P

Snippy
02-03-2010, 10:28 AM
Your issues with this problem member will not stop here.

You need a guild code of conduct. State to the guild that failure to follow this code of conduct is grounds for removal. Put in there things that pertain to drama, whining, being guilded in multiple "active" guilds.

Also, be sure that every member you invite meets the maturity levels you require. I ran a small guild that was low on drama during BC. Much of this is due in part to the age of the members. We had a few children in there but they weren't your typical children... so not all children are bad... just most. Screen people. State up front that your guild only accepts members who meet X, Y, Z IRL. Post an age requirement! It's not going to solve all your problems, but on the "majority" rule, it will fix a lot.

What you also have to worry about here is how it was handled. You did take far to long to handle it. Problem individuals need to be delt with swiftly! If you're not careful you can soil the gaming experience of people you actually like by keeping a bad apple around long enough. Warn once about behavior. If it doesn't adjust to a level you find appropriate, be done with the individual!

thecrazyman
02-03-2010, 11:49 AM
For sure a guild code will be a great asset here to get members that cause or create issues remvoed faster. Just keep in mind don't define too narrow or too open to interperation. One famous quote from a leader I know is "keep it simple stupid." Don't over anaylsis what you are trying to get across and always make sure to have others chime in on it as well.

Musclebound
02-03-2010, 11:59 AM
One quote that has confused me is the bit about missing a work function because of expecting a raid, I dont believe this quote because the behaviour of 'the problem' have exampled in your post is not typical of a person of working age and much more prevelant in school children.


For Background, I'm a 23 year old college student. Our problem child was 25, married and owned his own house.


Your issues with this problem member will not stop here.

You need a guild code of conduct. State to the guild that failure to follow this code of conduct is grounds for removal. Put in there things that pertain to drama, whining, being guilded in multiple "active" guilds.

Also, be sure that every member you invite meets the maturity levels you require. I ran a small guild that was low on drama during BC. Much of this is due in part to the age of the members. We had a few children in there but they weren't your typical children... so not all children are bad... just most. Screen people. State up front that your guild only accepts members who meet X, Y, Z IRL. Post an age requirement! It's not going to solve all your problems, but on the "majority" rule, it will fix a lot.

What you also have to worry about here is how it was handled. You did take far to long to handle it. Problem individuals need to be delt with swiftly! If you're not careful you can soil the gaming experience of people you actually like by keeping a bad apple around long enough. Warn once about behavior. If it doesn't adjust to a level you find appropriate, be done with the individual!

We have a guild code of conduct, written out both on our website and in the description tab of our guild bank. The only thing I was not able to get several of the officers to agree with was any sort of rule about having multiple toons in multiple guilds, because (Surprise!) several of our officers at the time had toons in other guilds. We ended up removing those officers recently, but I'm still not sure how well a rule like that would fly in a casual guild. It's something to discuss.

We only invite people that we've run with and feel that we've gotten to know reasonably well. In this case he was one of several who came over to us from a friends guild after their GM got hacked and disbanded the guild. We'd raided with them for months before he joined. Sometimes you just never know. We also do our best to filter out children because our guild chat rules are pretty relaxed, and we like it that way.

I disagree with a "Two strikes and you're out" kind of policy as you seem to suggest. We're a closely knit group and everyone has bad days. If we followed that sort of rule the guild would be empty because every last one of us, myself and the GM included, have had bad days. We've been together for almost 2 years now, we're practically like a family and sometimes we argue like one too. We probably should have gotten rid of him sooner, but I don't think we should be booting people at the drop of a hat either.

Bashal
02-03-2010, 12:17 PM
...I'm still not sure how well a rule like [no alts in other guilds] would fly in a casual guild. It's something to discuss.

You can't really control whether someone has an alt in another guild or not. The only way you'd know for sure is if they told you, or knew one of their alt's names and then later found it in someone else's guild roster.

My guild has a generally casual atmosphere, but we have a kind of 2-tier approach. You wanna just have a place to log in and hang out? Ok, fine. Want to raid? Well... you have to meet certain requirements there, like being fairly reliable, geared, and so on. If people need help meeting those requirements, so they can make the jump, we're happy to help. So the "glass ceiling" is only as low as the individual chooses for themselves. ;)


I disagree with a "Two strikes and you're out" kind of policy as you seem to suggest.

We've managed to get away with having no specific code of conduct (outside of raiding that is) written down in stone. The unwritten rule is "don't be a jerk". We just try to be consistent in our reasoning when making a decision about something. ;)

Musclebound
02-03-2010, 01:47 PM
You can't really control whether someone has an alt in another guild or not. The only way you'd know for sure is if they told you, or knew one of their alt's names and then later found it in someone else's guild roster.

My guild has a generally casual atmosphere, but we have a kind of 2-tier approach. You wanna just have a place to log in and hang out? Ok, fine. Want to raid? Well... you have to meet certain requirements there, like being fairly reliable, geared, and so on. If people need help meeting those requirements, so they can make the jump, we're happy to help. So the "glass ceiling" is only as low as the individual chooses for themselves. ;)



We've managed to get away with having no specific code of conduct (outside of raiding that is) written down in stone. The unwritten rule is "don't be a jerk". We just try to be consistent in our reasoning when making a decision about something. ;)

Thats exactly my philosophy on raiding with my guild We've described ourselves as "A social guild with a raiding habit". We have about 170 unique accounts in guild, and probably a quarter of those actually have an interest in raiding. If you want to raid, great, we'll help you gear, point you where to go to get info on specs, rotations, glyphs and so on. Ball's in your park, that sort of deal.

As for our code of conduct, most of our rules basically boil down to "Don't be a dick." Got an argument with someone, keep it out of guild chat, keep the language pg-13 before 10pm, and for the love of god don't beg for runs through lowbie dungeons. Back before we got strict about our recruiting standards, everybody had invite privileges and we'd get a lot of stupid kids coming in and out. They'd join, and within 10-15 minutes would start begging for runs/money, so we'd boot em.

Fledern
02-03-2010, 02:15 PM
Your guild atmosphere seems very similar to ours. We dont like kicking people and do it very rarely. Your problem child crossed every single one of our redlines too, and imo your handling was fine. My only critism would be you did it too late :P

We have a lot of old members coming back. Some stop playing then come back. Some leave for greener pastures then realize life out there isnt as shiny as it looks and want to come back. We welcome them. Every time we make it very clear to them that a) we already filled their raid spot and getting him raiding again is going to take effort and time, b) his gear/skill might have lapsed due to the pause and he needs to "catch up" first.

We turn a blind eye to many "i'm old skuul, respect me" type stuff, hoping they blend back in. The nice ones do. The others dont. Those that dont blend, we usually know beforehand (experience is a good thing :P) and track them vigilantly.

Our very rare kicks occurs with the following:
1) We discover your main is in another guild (or you switched mains). Instant kick of toon & all alts. If you dont want to hang out with us, we dont want you. If you want to leech another guild to equip your alts, fine, we dont care. But your mains' ass belongs to us.

2) Ninja leaving a raid without any sort of prior warning. You'd better have a medical emergency in the house or something. Instant kick. (real emergencies, sincere apologies while logging off etc, are all warmly tolerated, even if it means ending the raid)

3) Anyone publically berating the rest of the guild. We give ample warning to such people to mend their ways. We take them to private whispers/vent channel and have a talk with them. We do everything to sort it out before it blows big. But some people (and your Problem Child seems to belong in that group) just wont stop. Those are usually the same people who've managed to get ahead in life through whining. If the warnings dont work, they are kicked.

As a statistic (off my head, i dont keep actual count), out of the nearly 30 people who've returned to us, we've kicked about 5 of them. Another 10 have left on their own accord when they realized "old member" status doesnt grant them the privilages they expected. The rest have blended in and continue to be good friends.

For your joint runs, if you're supplying such a large portion of the raid, you might want to put some muscle into it: "if he comes, we're not". I'm pretty sure the other guild will start wondering why you feel so strongly about it and start some monitoring of their own.

Musclebound
02-08-2010, 01:39 PM
Well, time for a bit of an update.
Saturday was our joint 25 run, and I pulled aside the GM of the other guild and explained to her what happened with our Problem Child and how he had left us and joined their guild. Apparently he had already left them as well, with no explanation. Problem solved I guess!

Bashal
02-09-2010, 08:48 AM
Well, time for a bit of an update.
Saturday was our joint 25 run, and I pulled aside the GM of the other guild and explained to her what happened with our Problem Child and how he had left us and joined their guild. Apparently he had already left them as well, with no explanation. Problem solved I guess!

Indeed. :)

Snippy
02-09-2010, 10:37 AM
Happy Endings... treasure them. We don't all get them! :cool:

Cholerabob
02-09-2010, 10:41 AM
Man you are alot more understanding then i would have been, after first explanation not understood, i would have booted his a**. I would have booted him the moment he said "well i'm leaving soon anyway"... BOOM /gkick.... Here let me help you.... I got ZERO toelrance for cry babies or bullies .

Banterloft
02-23-2010, 02:13 PM
People hate to see WOW as a job however, look at it from an employer's stand point.
1-You have a single employee harming the moral of others around him.
2-You have insabordination from said employee
3-You gave him his verbal warning
4-You gave him a second chance at his verbal warning
5-A project (Your raid) failed simply on his behavior.

At # 3 I would have sent him to the unemployement line. In real life there are people lining up for jobs... In WOW, there are people lining up for raid spots...

Good job though. You are much kinder than most would be.

Prucilak
04-09-2010, 10:43 AM
People hate to see WOW as a job however, look at it from an employer's stand point.
1-You have a single employee harming the moral of others around him.
2-You have insabordination from said employee
3-You gave him his verbal warning
4-You gave him a second chance at his verbal warning
5-A project (Your raid) failed simply on his behavior.

At # 3 I would have sent him to the unemployement line. In real life there are people lining up for jobs... In WOW, there are people lining up for raid spots...

Good job though. You are much kinder than most would be.
As a RL Boss, There is nothing more true than this statement.