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robbon
02-01-2010, 03:27 AM
So for about the 3rd week running we still cant beat festergut on 25man.

Raid composition is 2 tanks - 6 healers and 17 dps (9 melee and 8 range) incl shammy.

I dont have a wowwebstats log and its somehting we as a guild are now looking at but generally our melee biys are kicking out 8k + (rogues doing close to 10k), movement wise we are not the best but we are getting better and at least now we are at enrage rather than wiping before enrage.

The biggest problem we have is our range dps, they seem to drop their total dps for this fight. Either too much time moving or dead or whatever..

Our mages and locks are consistently hitting 5-6k here and we cant seem to get them higher even though their gear is good level.

Can anyone link me some raid logs of Festergut with locks/mages/hunters damage on them so we can compare some rotations or builds.

Ta.

Shortypop
02-01-2010, 03:39 AM
Apologies if you know this, but it's not clear from your post. Ranged DPS, who DPS at ranged will be lower than normal due to Vile Gas, and if they are too close and cross-infecting each other they will lower each other even more. They will also have to group up to get innoculated and split up quickly, causing more dps loss, varies depending on class. I'd also investigate if you can drop to 5 healers, if everyone gets innoculated correctly 5 healing it is do-able. That said we have found the enrage timer to be quite tight, especially if you are suffering from server-lag.

robbon
02-01-2010, 04:05 AM
ye we know those but as with all these encounters we now have the "we failed cos the ranged dps sucks".

We just need some benchmarks for where they should be with respct to dps levels. We know they are going to be lower but we still hear of locks kicking out 9k and mages doing sub 10k ..so why do our guys fail to hit 8k on this encounter ? rotation ? raid spec ?..or just slacking in the movement dept.

Most of our mages/hunters and locks are all ilevel 245+ with T9.25 and one or 2 pieces from TGOC. They have gear now from icc25 and icc10 and can cut the mustard elsewhere just htis encounter ssems to gib them..

i wanted some raw data to use to benchmark them or help them refine rotations on this encounter.

its probably more to do with movement than anything else but it would help to stop the QQ.

swelt
02-01-2010, 04:15 AM
Aside: WWS is old news, go World of Logs - much more accessible. You can even run live reports, alt tab after a wipe and see in real detail what's going on. Great tool for performance management. Grab loggerhead addon to auto-log in raid instances, create an account, nothing to it.

As shorty has said, ranged are at a disadvantage in this fight because of the extra movement and the puking. Here's our log from last night (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-86uyjgzd0wujtz3h/sum/damageDone/?s=1085&e=1359). I guess there's some RNG involved in who is targeted for the vile gas, but our mage (who is pretty damned good generally) did manage 9k as Arcane. I know he doesn't bother moving for the first set of spores and iceblocks the first pungent blight. Our warlocks look a bit lower than where I'd expect them to be on other fights.

robbon
02-01-2010, 05:12 AM
thanks swelt thats exactly what we need.

Our mages and locks are not far of similar gear to yours, likewise your log pretty much refelcts what we see, high dps from rets/rogues, hunters and locks/mages can be wow but then can also be OMG.

thanks.

Shortypop
02-01-2010, 05:30 AM
If you need the extra dps you can always put some at melee range and make up the numbers at range with raid healers. Looking at our last fight the ranged ranged from 10k+ to 6.5k with 4 dps getting the stun and the rest healers. The four were 2 hunters who did 7-7.5k, one mage at 6.9 and one s.priest at 6.5. Guess part of it is choosing ranged whose DPS isn't messed too bad with stuns and moving, and making sure the minimum number get stunned every time.

robbon
02-01-2010, 05:34 AM
tbh i really think all the finger pointing is because we have taken more than 3 nights of wipes to kill him, we are getting close but people start pointing fingers at recount and we need to demonstrate to everyone that they are doing the right thing, just not fast enough or moving fast enough. If the enrage timer was just an extra 20 seconds away im sure we wouldnt have half the raid vs other half of raid.

swelt
02-01-2010, 05:58 AM
The other thing to do is to poke around world of logs for that boss, each group is different and my raid isn't necessarily the best role model.

From the front page click Festergut and get this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Icecrown_Citadel/Festergut/ (and reassure yourself that you aren't the only person that wipes on Festergut)
From there, click kills and get this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Icecrown_Citadel/Festergut/25N/ - note some of these have impossible short kill times and must be bugged, skip towards the end to see guilds that are just about making it. Now this is one feature WOL sucks at, clicking next 700 times would suck, but you can just edit the url to jump many pages.

Rudolpho
02-01-2010, 06:02 AM
You really don want people in your raid ever fighting and pointing fingers. If you have Druid healers, but them at range and move some dps in. I have only did 10 man, but I am a resto Druid and I go ranged and it really doesnt change my ability to heal. We are able to get him down in about 3 mins 50 seconds in 10 man and our dps isn't really that high at all, other than our rogue who hits 8.5 - 9k. I know 25 man is a different animal, but if you guys are getting within 20 seconds, I would say a few more ranged not having to move would push you over.

Revenous
02-01-2010, 06:30 AM
Like Rudolph said, pointing fingers is the worst thing for any raiding guild to do. And also another key thing is to have everyone not sit and look at recount like its the end all be all answer to your problems. My guilds first kill we just made it by 5secs. After that it we been killing him with over 30secs left on the timer each week.

The way we do it is...

2 tanks
5 heals
rest dps

We normally try to balance our melee and range but sometimes this doesn't always happen. But for the healers on this fight we leave our resto druids out with the range. And the other 3 go with the melee. This way pallys priests and shamans don't have to worry about moving while trying to heal.

But for the range it all really boils down to RNG on who gets hit the most with the spit. You can have one week where you have a range do 8-9k and the next do 5-6k cuz of the debuff.

Festergut WoL (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8lux0eyjvxxtdmof/sum/damageDone/?s=4732&e=5004)

I also added in our World of Logs kill on Festergut from this past tuesday. As you can see our Ele shaman was way under. Haven't really looked at it but I think he either died or got the debuff alot. Hope this helps.

robbon
02-01-2010, 07:18 AM
its all helping. On our guild forum there are loads of threads being posted now about comparison in gear to build to rotation. We know we are close and its just a matter of tweaking and maybe one or two players realising that they cant leave it to the last second to run.

10 man we have 2 teams of people 1 shotting this guy each week now with time to spare and without using hero. On 25 its that adrenalin fuelled OMG ITS SO CLOSE I CAN SMELLZ ZE EPICS..fail.

i have now registered on WoL and will be monitoring our next attempt to see how close we are to the other logs and hopefully identify any areas requiring a little attention :)

Rezzus
02-01-2010, 12:08 PM
You can put 2 or 3 caster dps in melee range.
Try to put raid icon over 2 ranged dps and spread people around them to minimize movement. People need to run to the ranged dps with the raid icon.

Mage and hunters can do 10k dps on that fight.
Our logs from thusday: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tbjhnm01m140uwbu/sum/damageDone/?s=5495&e=5767

Tips: for your mage (I play a mage -_-)
Incanter's absorbtion is probably the most important thing for mage on this enconters.
Assign 1 holy paladin for each mage and have them cast sacred shield.
Also priest should shield mage. (Dommage absorbed from mage = spellpower)

robbon
02-02-2010, 03:56 AM
thanks guys.

Dragaan
02-02-2010, 04:53 AM
What Rezzus said. You don't need to have every ranged/healer at range for this fight. You only need a certain amount (provided they don't die), but I'm unsure on exactly how many. My guild leaves a few ranged in melee range, and they do significantly more dps than the others. Mage at range does just under 10k. Mage in melee does over 11k. (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mfwil2tbqmdpb042/sum/damageDone/?s=2604&e=2834)

Also, make sure your tanks are doing everything they can, while not currently tanking, to pump out some extra dps. Once a tank gets relieved of his tank duty (9 stacks), they are doing 90% extra damage. Warriors should go battle stance, paladins click off righteous fury, DKs go blood presence, ferals go kitty. Just make sure they keep an eye on omen so they don't surpass the new tank on threat and cause a 10stack explosion.

One more thing to keep in mind is that blowing heroism/bloodlust off the bat is usually the best way to do it on this fight. This ensures dps all have their cooldowns up and a dps pot ticking (since every dps should be pre-potting on this fight if you are having issues. this is also very very important). If you wait a few minutes, the tanks can also benefit more from the hero/lust since they have increased damage, but some of the dps might not have cooldowns synced perfectly (and by this time you might have more people adjusting position).

Crommi
02-02-2010, 08:56 AM
Make sure your tanks are also making the most out of their damage buff, it's more effective for prot warriors to just switch stance and go all out than staying in defensive without being able to do much due to aggro issues.

Our Festergut25 kill this week with 2 tanks, 6 healers, 10 melee-dps and 7 casters.
Rogues doing +10k but there isn't a huge gap between casters and melee. Two warlocks at 8k dps (Demo and Affliction specs). Last guy is out 3rd tank in his offspec gear :)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tfzw9xu3e7uzz58i/sum/damageDone/?s=7599&e=7866

cala1
02-02-2010, 06:58 PM
we just killed this guy tonight, we had 7 healers but our dps were putting out some nice numbers. we put our 2 hunters a mage, 2 locks and 3 raid healers at range, you only need to have 8 at range to soak the vile gas. (as long as there all alive)

we had the 3 raid healers out so we could sqeeze more from our ranged cos some of them could just stand under the boss and nuke.

if you havn't already go try some of the other bosses, we killed rotface and blood council before fester on 25 man, then come back with more gear and pwn him :)

robbon
02-04-2010, 05:02 AM
Update.

Well i took everyones advice, we did a lot of discussion on our guild forum and we focussed all dps in building the most appropriate spec and buff benefit to the raid.

I was raid leader and set up 5 grps

2 range grps (1 healer + 4 range dps)
2 melee grps (1 healer + 4 melee dps)
1 tank grp (2 tanks + 2 healers +1 melee dps)

total 6 healers, 2 tanks, 8 range 9 melee.

We also now use WoL (but unfortunately for our fester attempts i DC before the encounter and it stopped logging)

First attempt on fester - wiped at 90%
Second attempt - enrage at 2% !!!!!!

third attempt - clean kill - no deaths.

guild first, much rejoicing and 20 minute debate over who gets the blood.

We are guild RisK - http://wow.guildprogress.com/EU/Lightning's_Blade

Again, thanks for the input.

Our locks and mages were doing 7-8k, rogues 8-10k, ret pallies 9-10k, dps warriors 6-8k

Very nice.