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View Full Version : The Legendary Marmot -- Lore Does Loot Again



Ciderhelm
01-27-2010, 06:05 PM
Mmi5ePRzetE

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/images/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

philippecote3@live.com
01-27-2010, 09:45 PM
Can't wait to see this one, loot systems are a big deal to a lot of guilds and it always helps to know what our shiny new armor is actually being used for. The last episode helped me set my priorities guild-wise. Fairness is always important to guilds but those other 3 are what makes guilds successful. Also, I would like to see more of your cat!

Elysian
01-27-2010, 10:01 PM
Lore, excellent job so far on the way you have broken down the loot systems between progression, reward, upkeep and fairness. I have tried to write blogs about loot systems in the past, and it is def. not a easy topic to cover.

Nemeo
01-28-2010, 12:29 AM
I would love you to go back to the adminstation of guilds and really hope you will make a video session where you explain how to deal with diffrent types of people

Alamire
01-28-2010, 01:08 AM
Great video as always, Lore, but jeez... To think I almost complimented you on your singing voice after 'This is my cat.' Tell me, was the cat singing and you miming?

Lyhyt
01-28-2010, 01:53 AM
EPGP is basicly:

EP= Points you earn for coming in time, staying during raids, killing a boss, or basicly whatever your officer wants to give you points for doing.

GP= A set amount of points that an item costs (it's already set in the EPGP addon what the cost is)

So let's say you've gotten a total of 3000 EP for killing a few bosses and such, and then an axe drops that costs 800, that doesn't mean your score is now 2200.
In EPGP you take the EP (3000) divided by the GP (800) to show what Prio you have. 3000/800 = 3.75
So your prio is now 3.75, so whoever has higher than you on the prio, will be able to buy a thing that you would also roll for, since his prio is higher.

So things you do gives you EP and things you buys gives you GP. Both just keeps building up as you go so the numbers can get pretty high, a bit depending on how much your officers gives you during raids.

So EPGP= EP divided by GP = Your Prio
EP = Earned Points
GP = Gear Points

Odok
01-28-2010, 04:20 AM
My guild uses a loot council system (after trying every DKP system imaginable) and it's worked out very well for us so far.

Basically the council is made up of a "role rep" for each of the four main roles in the raid: healers, physical dps, caster dps, and tanks. The raid leader is also on the council. If an item is obviously intended for just the one role it's immediately handed to the role rep to do with as they please. If the item can be used in multiple roles, usually set pieces, the council votes/desides/passes to determine which role will get it. That decision is usually based on what the weakest part of the raid is at that moment and/or on who got what last week. Once the role rep has the item they either just decide who is getting it or they discuss the decision with everyone in their designated role. The idea is that those who know their role best make loot decisions that both provide the greatest benefit to the raid as a whole and reward the dedicated raid members.

Lore is right though, the system is only as strong as your officers. You need officers that want to adhere to the ideology I just laid out. You need people that do their job really well, are well respected, and are willing to put the raid before themselves or even their role. People have to be willing to funnel loot after loot into the MT or MT healers with the understanding that the faster the raid kills a new boss, the more loot will be coming in for everyone. Everyone also has to be in good communication with everyone else.

Charonites
01-28-2010, 06:55 AM
I think I should just take 15 minutes to show you a loot system that my guild doesn't implement - but rather, the guild I got rejected to have. :P
I actually applied for the guild just because I liked the look of their loot system.

Effort Point / Gear Score = DKP.

Basically, you don't earn DKP, you earn EP, or Effort Points, which you get as you turn up for raids, kill bosses, or stay in the standby group. And your EP is divided by your Gear Score (GS), to determine your DKP. It works on the idea that if you have enough DKP to buy an item, your GS goes up, and thus, your DKP goes down as your dividing. And thus, you've spent DKP.

The disadvantages I see is that new members do actually still start out at a disadvantage, but it seems very fair, and seems like progression, whilst is not amazingly fast, is spread throughout the entire guild, and it seems fair - people with lower gear scores, aslong as they put the effort in to gain EP, actually get priority over loot.

It rewards the lower geared people who actually do try - it's more for the guild who wants to progress together, rather then having people rocket ahead. An addon called EPGS (I think?) handles all the maths and stuff behind it, so Upkeep is managed externally aswell.

If you want to know more information, the guild who uses it are called Burning Vigor - on the Shattered Halls EU Server. And I'm sure many other guilds use it to.

Vass
01-28-2010, 07:30 AM
What no Addon Talk? Bad Lore! Bad Lore! LOL

Cholerabob
01-28-2010, 07:32 AM
Lore thank you for your weekly Marmots , they bring a smile to my face every week. One question i have, and sorry if it has been asked before, is why are they so short :( ? Is there a time limit to what you can put online ?

Thanks

A fan ;)

Luanmali
01-28-2010, 09:09 AM
Lore thank you for your weekly Marmots , they bring a smile to my face every week. One question i have, and sorry if it has been asked before, is why are they so short :( ? Is there a time limit to what you can put online ?

Thanks

A fan ;)
YouTube has a maximum time limit for videos that can be uploaded to the site. He's probably editting his marmots to conform to this time limit.
Either that, or he's editted so much that the original version was simply too long, and he ran out of free time in the day to record all the info.
Whatever the reason, he still puts out quality information, so who cares?

Keep up the good work, Lore!

Petninja
01-28-2010, 10:11 AM
My guild uses a loot council, and it's worked for us pretty well. We're a pretty close group anyway. That having been said, there's a few things we do to keep things going smoothly:

1) Preferred loot lists should be posted on the guild site in the appropriate forum for every member.
Basically, if something drops and you've deemed it your most important upgrade and someone you're running against for the item doesn't think it's that big of a deal it's going to go to you. It puts the bulk of the research on each player, and relies less on the absolute knowledge of the officer to know the intricacies of a class he may very well not play. We're not actually terribly good about maintaining this on the site as of late :P.

2) The officers in charge of distributing loot are never in competition with the other players for any given piece of loot.
You'll never have a dps DK deciding who's going to get the Bryntroll (unless he's already got it).

3) Current loot must also be linked with your bid for an item.
This is more of a redundancy check for the website. It really just allows the leaders to see what you're getting for an upgrade if they give it to you.

4) /roll
Sometimes the call is just darn close, and rather than play favorites old RNG can work wonders. This also makes it more exciting for everyone who doesn't have anything to do with the loot.

It's also worth mentioning that the Tanks don't follow this loot structure as there's only two of us and we govern ourselves pretty well.
Teir tokens are handled on their own system this time for ICC.
Most importantly, just as Lore said, since there are no hard rules for who loot actually goes to it leaves a lot of room for negotiation and flexibility. It's not going to work for everyone, but if you're all good friends it works out rather nicely.

My two cents.

Cholerabob
01-28-2010, 11:03 AM
YouTube has a maximum time limit for videos that can be uploaded to the site. He's probably editting his marmots to conform to this time limit.
Either that, or he's editted so much that the original version was simply too long, and he ran out of free time in the day to record all the info.
Whatever the reason, he still puts out quality information, so who cares?

Keep up the good work, Lore!


Wasn't complaining or anything,it's just that, it's good information, i want more ... lol I miss the days of the podcast that would run for 30 minutres...lol

Bashal
01-28-2010, 11:48 AM
If anything, lore's vids have made me more certain about the loot system my guild chose to go with (Suicide Kings). It works incredibly well for us, and as he says, if it works for your guild, then you should use it. :)

Istari
01-28-2010, 12:17 PM
My guild uses a DKP system modified with rolling which works out really well for tackling the veteran vs new guild member getting items issue. We use it for set tier pieces because those are easy to assign static values to. But it could be used for any item if a guild wanted.

So say there are players A,B,C. The roll would be /random 1-X, where X = sum of the bidding players' DKPs. Here is a setup:

A current DKP = 10 (new guy)
B current DKP = 100 (common member)
C current DKP = 1000 (veteran)

The roll for the item would be /random 1-1110, a roll of 1-10 would be player A, 11-100 would be player B, 101-1110 would be player C. The winning bidder would be charged the static amount.

This gives vets a higher % chance to win something but still gives the guy with low DKP some hope.

Now, we use quite a bit of rules for everything else, but I thought I'd share just that bit which I've always liked about our system.

We use the same system for rare items like mounts, bags, etc that are not really for gear but for coolness . For those we use lifetime DKP instead of current DKP.

MonkH
01-28-2010, 02:20 PM
GDKP is good! don't know of a guild that uses it but good in pugs. well never actually been in pug that uses it cus im poor and over geared but still seems like it would be good if u have alot of gold to spend :p

btw what's your thoughts on pugs reserving items? are they ninjas or is it fine?

Elysian
01-28-2010, 02:24 PM
My blog on loot council: http://guildmasters.com/?p=80

Turelliax
01-28-2010, 03:40 PM
You know what would have made that opening better? Lore Singing "Hit me baby one more time"

Baelor
01-28-2010, 06:32 PM
Slejloreface, you skipped over relational DKP systems in your DKP discussion!

It's fairer than a basic DKP system, with just as much upkeep and a little less on the reward/progression scale, depending on how you set it up.

Butherface
01-28-2010, 07:49 PM
LOL LOL at your intro!! awesomeness

Noep
01-28-2010, 11:16 PM
your funny voice (u know the second one u used in each example)

classic ;p

lol

Baelor
01-29-2010, 04:16 PM
I think you should follow through on the cat-launching idea.

Lore
01-29-2010, 05:23 PM
Slejloreface, you skipped over relational DKP systems in your DKP discussion!

It's fairer than a basic DKP system, with just as much upkeep and a little less on the reward/progression scale, depending on how you set it up.

Relational DKP and EPGP are almost completely identical as far as any discussion in the video is concerned. Everything I said about EPGP, I'd say about Relational DKP also. Whether it's fairer or not depends on your definition of "fair".

Ibiza
01-31-2010, 03:33 AM
Whistle stop from Robin Hood. You're my new hero.

hellhound2
02-01-2010, 05:35 PM
Our guild uses a % style DKP system, works fairly well but has the same holes as any dkp system does, main thing i guess is that it keeps inflation and new members dont have to wait as long to get to a competitive postion

but the negative i guess is is the higher level guys dont take as much loot as they should and lower guys get it for like 2 dkp where the top guy gets it for like 19-20

phaze
02-02-2010, 07:18 AM
Good overview, Lore!

On the topic of bidding Point Systems and the common problems that arise, I have a few comments.

Spike bidding: only works if (A) knows for certain that (B) will bid at least X amount. If (B) doesn't, (A) just ended up winning the item for more than (A) wanted to spend. So it's a dick move that can be countered. ;) On the flip side, you could argue that if (B) is willing to spend that much on the item, he should be prepared to pay that price regardless of (A)'s behavior; (B) is fully responsible for making intelligent bids. I always tell my gang to just bid what the item is worth to them, and ignore the points of everyone else. In practice, I've never seen issues with spike bidding.

Collusion: a lot of point systems put quite a bit of effort into methods to prevent this, most commonly by assigning point values (or minimums) to every single item of interest in the raid game. But I prefer an adaptive approach. I like using a scaling minimum bid, to remove the benefit of colluding with others to drop the price. I've found that a good floating value for min bids is 1/3 of the player's current point total. This way, players can collude all they want; they still have to shell out a sizable chunk of their earnings.

Inflation: the nice thing about a points system with bidding, is that inflation is mostly a non-issue. Bids can scale up with point totals. If you choose to use a scaling min. bid, you really take inflation out of the equation; it does a great job of discouraging hoarders.

So if you use a point system with bidding (or are thinking of using one) and the above issues are coming up, just keep in mind there are methods of reducing/eliminating them. My above comments are just one way, there are others too.