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Sambers
01-27-2010, 06:01 PM
Hello everyone, longtime reader/watcher, first time poster here.

Recently me, my boyfriend and a bunch of our friends have gotten our old guild back together and we've started going to ToC10 and we want to do ICC10.

However, I feel that our raid setup might be a problem.
I'm leading an ICC10 raid this friday so I'm worried that we might struggle on some parts, the bloodbeasts on Deathbringer Saurfang for example.
Going to ICC for the first time you can probably guess how frustrated I am if it turns out that the raid that I'm leading will wipe time after time just because we don't have some class.

I would like to ask you guys what your view is on our raid setup as it is right now, do take in mind that we are trying to recruit a hunter or rogue (preferably both) to get a more mixed setup.

Tanks: 1 Prot paladin, 1 Feral druid
Healers: 1 Resto druid, 1 Holy priest, 1 Holy paladin
DPS: 1 Fire mage, 1 Destro lock, 2 DKs Blood and Unholy and 1 Retri paladin.

As you can see we've got 3 paladins in the group and this is the part where I have the most issue with, seeing as I'd like to mix it up a bit more.
I'm also a bit iffy on taking two deathknights, seeing as one of the officers agrees with me on the fact that either a rogue, hunter or shaman would be better to replace the DKs or one DK and the Retri paladin.

However on the other hand I'm very happy with the mage, seeing as he would be able to CC the person getting mindcontrolled on Lady Deathwhisper.
I'm thinking that we should get a ranged DPS instead of one of the DKs though, a shaman or Hunter.
Hunter for traps, Shaman for Totems and Bloodlust. And this is why I'm having so much trouble deciding what classes to take because they all have their pro's for some of the fights.

What's your view on this setup? What is your guild's ICC10 setup and why do you use this setup?

Looking forward to everyone's answers and thanks in advance,

Sam

felhoof
01-27-2010, 06:11 PM
In ICC10 no one gets MCed for deathwhisper.

A bloodlust is handy, but it isn't a requirement at least for 10-mans. DKs are great on Saurfang for slowing and kiting. You've got pretty much all the buffs covered other than lust, and honestly shamans are kinda gimpy right now. Your healers are just about perfectly ideal (especially if one has a DPS offspec) as you have two very mobile healers and a tank healer, which cover pretty much every situation so far encountered. Your tanks are fine. Your DPS are a bit heavy on ranged but you can at least give them good ranged buffs via your DK. The biggest issue? You don't have any sunder or expose. No rogues at all. That's a bummer.

Sambers
01-27-2010, 06:44 PM
All of the healers have a DPS offspec, atleast the priest and druid.
A friend actually said that we could use a rogue in order to seek out the 'traps' that set off the big guys just before marrowgar.
And I was thinking of getting a hunter because of the frost trap they could use on Deathbringer Saurfang.
However I think we'll have enough slows to slow down the Bloodbeasts.
One of the DK's actually has an Enhancement shaman as 'main' that he wanted to go on originally but he decided to go on his DK instead.
I could ask him if he could go on his shaman, however we'd still have 3 melee DPS and I would rather have 3 ranged 2 melee to be perfectly honest with you.
I'm not sure how heavy this would be on the healers seeing as Ranged are further away from the fight and it's easier for ranged to switch targets for like the Bonespike graveyard on Marrowgar or the Bloodbeasts on Saurfang.

I'm guessing the best choice would be a rogue for one of the Melee spots?
It would be the most ideal to replace one of the DKs and the Retri paladin with a rogue and a hunter or elemental shaman, though we don't really want to bluntly tell people that signed up they can't come to the raid because of the setup.

phaze
01-27-2010, 09:43 PM
I would like to ask you guys what your view is on our raid setup as it is right now


As long as you have 2 tanks, 3 healers, and one of your damagers is ranged, you're generally good to go. The only major bottleneck that I've noticed so far is having a Disc Priest for Deathbringer Saurfang (doable without, but ridiculously easier with). Aside from that one fight, class makeup is highly flexible.



As you can see we've got 3 paladins in the group and this is the part where I have the most issue with, seeing as I'd like to mix it up a bit more.
Having every blessing isn't a bad thing. ;)



A friend actually said that we could use a rogue in order to seek out the 'traps' that set off the big guys just before marrowgar.

Not needed. Send a tank in to fish for the traps, if no rogue available. Much easier to repair than to recruit a new member. ;)



I'm not sure how heavy this would be on the healers seeing as Ranged are further away from the fight and it's easier for ranged to switch targets for like the Bonespike graveyard on Marrowgar or the Bloodbeasts on Saurfang.

Attentive melee do just fine on handling Bonespikes. You can also make it easier on them by clumping closer to the melee area, if it's a major concern. There's a couple of different ways that guilds handle Marrowgar, so adjust them to fit your group.

As for bloodbeasts: several different methods for handling these too. With extra melee dps, blow one up under stunlock while the ranged kill/kite the other.



though we don't really want to bluntly tell people that signed up they can't come to the raid because of the setup.
As long as you have 2 tanks, 3 healers, and at least 1 ranged DPS, you're ready to roll.

Oblivion
01-28-2010, 08:48 AM
For Marrowgar, just put everything on his backside up at the edge of the targeting reticle on the ground. Only the tanks will get fire that can be managed by stepping back and forth, and anyone who gets spiked is right in the group with everyone else. Just make sure you scatter for the bone spinning whirlwind.

For Saurfang, we prefer to two-heal it and having the resto druid go boomkin is a great opportunity to get some extra managing done on the beasts if the DK's fail are chains of ice. Worst case scenerio, just have him root one while your group kills the other. You can also dictate which way the adds will gravitate by having the paladin healing with righteous fury on, the beasts will naturally gravitate towards him at the start. The other benefit with three paladins is that you can mitigate some of the bloodboil damage and BP that Saurfang gets as a result. The ret and holy paladins can bubble themselves, and all three of them can HoP other people(casters/healers in any case).

Acidbaron
01-28-2010, 09:13 AM
Your mage could increase his damage going to arcane instead of sticking with fire, while a more simple playstyle you gain several benefits, especially seeing the lack of some classes you have.

Personal gain would be a much smaller hit cap, 6% off from talents. which can go into more important stats.
Raid gain, you'll be able to get slow in, seeing you have no shaman for earthbind totems or hunters for snares and are probably mostly depending on the dk's to snare.

And you would only sacrifice 5% raid crit buff, but you bring a pretty much 100% uptime 3% one, while it doesn't stack with retribution one it's going to be up all the time, raid wide not mob specific and you would lose some AoE, which hasn't been needed yet in ICC boss fights but with everyone being able to have 2 specs these days no harm into having both ready.


For the rest the same as above, Lady D.
doesn't mindcontrol on 10 man atleast not in normal, heroic isn't know yet.
Disc. priests are a luxury and far from needed, 2 healer setup on Saurfang is what i recommend, If the holy priest has shadow gear it would solved your range issue on that fight aswel or the druid has a boomkin offspec both work, the holy paladin however is needed.

Enhancement shaman would bring a heroism but not much else, as the majority of your setup seems to deal magic damage. However one can argue if it is really needed to push for that many buffs on normal. But the heroism alone will be worth it depends which death knight is considering swapping however. As unholy in that setup is nice.


With minor adjustments i forsee no issues in 10 man normal, heroic however but those would be purely assumptions of me based on how certain heroic fights could look like.

A hunter or rogue would be a great addition as then the initial threat on fights for your tanks would be higher and thus beter as you can go full out at the start with heroism, which is useful on some fights (rotface).

I didn't post my 10 man setups as of now no specific one is needed and we run with a good number of people, most of the time we prefer running with 1 healer with a dps offspec, while we can do it without aswel although a bit more tricky on other fights.

Sambers
01-28-2010, 01:05 PM
Hmm well the Unholy DK is the one with the Enhancement shaman.
The other DK is Blood/Frost specced so I guess I would probably have to choose in wanting to have either an Unholy DK or an Enhancement Shaman in our group.
I probably can let the Resto druid go Boomkin for that fight alone, although I'm always a bit worried that the healing will be a little short.

So, I was thinking for DBS to have the two DKS (presuming I'm not asking one of them to go on their shaman, seeing as Desceration is also nice for slowing the Bloodbeasts) Nuke down one of the Bloodbeasts while the Mage and/or warlock kite the other bloodbeast around and kill it and the two DK's possibly assist on finishing the last bloodbeast off.
However, I don't know how this will affect the Bloodpower that DBS gains if I have two Melee nuke the Bloodbeasts, I don't want the boss to gain unnecesary Bloodpower.

Would you guys suggest doing this, or just that I have the ranged kite/kill off the bloodbeasts, having my Resto druid go Boomkin for the duration of that fight.

Also, the Mage does have Arcane as offspec.
Just a little offtopic question: Does any of their gear need replacing when they go from Fire to Arcane or is Mage gear just all the same regardless of spec?

Acidbaron
01-28-2010, 01:58 PM
Even then i would consider the enchancement shaman for totems, if he prefers that character all the beter.

Only a few people should take damage on saurfang, you have the priest or druid raid heal and the paladin tank heal + beacon the first marked person and continue to tank heal while healing the marked, then the second healer picks up the other mark if you get another.

Nobody should get hit by the blood beasts with 3 dps, with a shaman in you would have earthbind totem to snare them and just let 2 range dps focus on one and another with occupy the second till the first one is death then the other 2 ranged help out on that one.

Both a boomkin and SP work as one can slow with mindflay and the other has typhoon to knock them back.


You shouldn't get more then 2 marks with 6 dps.


In arcane you want more haste then crit but in neither specs you would really neglect either stat, the main difference is the hitcap. 11% for arcane with talents, 17% for fire as there are no talents in that spec unless FFB but that's the FFB spec not fire spec :)

Bodasafa
01-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Your set up seems fine , though if one of your healers is able to flip to DPS thats handy, cause you can 2 heal everything in the lower spire. You will need a 3rd healer for PlagueWorks and possibly beyond.

A trick to Saurfang though:

2 Blood Beasts spawn.

Assign your melee dps to Stun and Nuke one a.s.a.p (ex: the right one) and have your ranged take out the other one. DK's can use Ice Chains to slow them, basically any stun/slow works. This takes the whole kiting them around bs outta the situation.

Also don't forget you can get things like Fort Scrolls and Drums of all kinds to help bring buffs to the raid if your missing a buff class.

Hope that helps and good luck!

Sambers
01-28-2010, 06:00 PM
Everyone has helped out tremendously and I'd like to thank you all for your input :D
I'm fairly at ease about the setup as it is right now, might still ask the Unholy DK to take his Shaman but we'll see about that. (Seeing as DK's are good at slowing as well.)
Let's hope this goes well for a somewhat unexperienced group :P I'll keep you guys updated on how it goes tomorrow night.

phaze
01-28-2010, 07:12 PM
Would you guys suggest doing this, or just that I have the ranged kite/kill off the bloodbeasts, having my Resto druid go Boomkin for the duration of that fight.

With several melee DPS, you should definitely be able to explode one of the adds while stunlocking to prevent it from attacking (and therefore no BP gains).

As for healing, try switching to 2 healers instead of 3. Deathbringer Saurfang isn't a healing-intensive encounter. The extra DPS will help you manage Blood Beasts better, and will help you kill him faster and with fewer Marks.

Sambers
01-29-2010, 04:09 PM
We got up to Deathbringer Saurfang and wiped about 3 times on him before calling it a night.
Turns out the Mage and Warlock had pretty poor raid coordination and awareness as they didn't switch targets even when we called it out on Vent. (Well after saying it numerous times they finally did but yeah..)
This caused us to wipe about 3 times on Lady D as well.
We're going to try again on Monday, perhaps having the Unholy DK go on his shaman and having the other DK (Who didn't show up but got replaced by his friend, also a DK, unholy) chain of ice the adds.

We were having alot of problems on the Bloodbeasts thanks to two of the DPS attempting to DPS the add that wasn't assigned to be killed first, it was being rooted and thus broke out of roots early which led to the bloodbeasts running rampant.
We also messed up on AoEing when the blood beasts were about to spawn as tanks, and both me and the other tank messing up on taunting off eachother when the other had blood rune.

Shouldn't be a big problem, no, but we had to help on kiting the adds which was rather frustrating as we would both have our taunt on cooldown and this also caused alot of confusion between me and the other tank so DBS kept gaining health..

We're probably going to try with the enhancement shaman on DBS next time. Hope it goes well then, cause I did have the resto druid go Boomkin and the Holy paladin heal with RF on but alas.

However, we had the funniest kill on Lady D. She hit the enrage timer just as we hit her to 3% so the pally tank died, then I died (Druid tank), and the DPS just kept burning and killed her with one person still alive in the end :D

BEST KILL EVAR!

Sambers
02-01-2010, 03:41 PM
We downed Saurfang today but ended up having to change our whole group setup.
We went with Prot paladin, Feral druid tank.
Unholy DK, Assasination Rogue, Boomkin druid, Fire mage, Retri paladin, Survival hunter
Resto Shaman, Holy priest

Found this to work the best. With the other setup we kept getting him down until 30% But I have to say DPS could've been way better/higher.

phaze
02-01-2010, 05:06 PM
We downed Saurfang today but ended up having to change our whole group setup.
We went with Prot paladin, Feral druid tank.
Unholy DK, Assasination Rogue, Boomkin druid, Fire mage, Retri paladin, Survival hunter
Resto Shaman, Holy priest


If you want to make it easier, have your Holy Priest pick up a Disc spec for Saurfang. It's a drastic improvement to BP control for this fight.

Sambers
02-02-2010, 11:35 AM
If you want to make it easier, have your Holy Priest pick up a Disc spec for Saurfang. It's a drastic improvement to BP control for this fight.

In what way? Do the melee hits not count when the target they're going after is shielded?

Oblivion
02-02-2010, 11:38 AM
Blood boil/blood nova(and I believe blood beast) damage does not count towards his BP if the target is completely shielded from the damage.

seidl
02-02-2010, 02:05 PM
When we were having trouble with this, we had the paladin tank (both of them for our double pally group) spec into 30s hammer of justice. That way the pally can stun one of the beasts every time. With double dk's, the other should be able to be chained. Then have ranged burn them down. If thats still not enough dps, have one of the melee follow a beast once a ranged gets aggro on it to help get it down.

For us as well, 3 healers might be overkill. After the first mark goes out, the encounter cascade failures with more and more marks. I'd be more tempted to have the druid go boomkin, the priest go disc, and leave the holy pally as is. The pally should be able to cover a lot of healing till the first mark goes out, and then beacon the mark and focus on keeping the tanks up. Till then, maybe beacon whichever ranged tends to get hit by a blood beast.

phaze
02-02-2010, 03:12 PM
In what way? Do the melee hits not count when the target they're going after is shielded?

Discipline Priests have a strong enough PW:S to reduce most of the ticks of Boiling Blood to zero damage. If the ticks don't deal damage, Saurfang doesn't gain Blood Power.

The shielding probably works for the melee hits of the Blood Beasts as well (which would also prevent the related BP gain), but the better approach there is to prevent them from attacking anyone in the first place.

And this fight is all about controlling his BP gains. Our 10m group went from having the first Mark occur at ~60% (no Disc Priest), to defeating Saurfang before the first Mark (with Disc Priest). Taking the Marks out of the fight makes this encounter a complete breeze.

Salloman
02-04-2010, 05:31 PM
I understand your concern regarding Saurfang with your current set up. We had simliar issues running with 3 melee and 2 ranged dps.

What we did was keep your consistently highest dps melee on the boss, and have the 2 melee break off to help the ranged. We had the ranged split up and draw intial aggro and kit the blood beasts. The Melee jump in on their respective targets at about 60% and kill the blood beasts. We had issues with the enrage timer because dropping two melee off the boss dropped our dps considerably. Only option then was to Move one of our Healers to dps and two heal it. Made all the difference. Even if you loose one dps to a mark you should still have time to make up for the 5% health.

Good luck!

PS.


And this fight is all about controlling his BP gains. Our 10m group went from having the first Mark occur at ~60% (no Disc Priest), to defeating Saurfang before the first Mark (with Disc Priest). Taking the Marks out of the fight makes this encounter a complete breeze.

It seems that Blizzard fixed this in the recent patch! We had two 10 mans with disc priests and high geared ranged dps. Previous week no mark, this week both saw 1-2 marks. Disc Priest do make a huge difference with this encounter, just observing its harder to avoid a Mark all together.

phaze
02-04-2010, 06:09 PM
It seems that Blizzard fixed this in the recent patch! We had two 10 mans with disc priests and high geared ranged dps. Previous week no mark, this week both saw 1-2 marks. Disc Priest do make a huge difference with this encounter, just observing its harder to avoid a Mark all together.

Yep, intended change (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748822581&pageNo=15#296) according to Daelo. No more easy mode just for bringing a Disc Priest. ;)