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marklar
01-27-2010, 04:44 PM
i thought it would be worth a thread to discuss/investigate who gets the first bite on this encounter, since maximizing raid damage is one key to the fight. here's a list of some possible mechanics that seem to be DIS-proven:

1) first dps to hit the boss - based on personal logs and other's reported logs, this does not seem to be right.

2) highest non-tank on threat - based on a video posted in the BQL thread, this seem to not be right either

3) most damage done - see #2


what we know (or think we know):

1) tanks don't get bitten

2) healers can get bitten

anyone got anything to add? in my 10-man logs, i saw three different people get bitten first - all dps, all ranged. our spriest did seem to get it the most, and the boomkin never. the spriest was almost always the first to tag the boss with DP.

Shortypop
01-28-2010, 12:14 AM
Very anecdotal evidence - in our 10man tries it was the second person on threat, on 25man either 2nd or 3rd - we've had both melee and ranged getting it - but this is definitely a small sample!!

Swirleyz
01-28-2010, 01:02 AM
Yesterday we spent some trys on her for discovering how the bite works.

1st Try.

Aggro Table: (Without MD or TotT)

1. MT
2. DD
3. BloodMirror Tank
4. Heal

DMG Done:

DD
MT
BLOODMIRRORTANK

The Healer got bitten

2nd try

Aggro Table: (Without MD or TotT)
1.MT
2.Bloodmirror Tank
3.DD1
4.DD2
5.DD3
6.DD4
.
.

DMG Done:
DD1
DD3
DD2
DD4

DD1 got bitten

3rd try

Aggro Table: (Without MD or TotT)

1.MT
2.DD1
3.DD2
4.Bloodmirror Tank
5.DD3

Damage Done:
1.DD1
2.DD2
3.DD3

DD3 got bitten.

We think now it's always the Player who is behind the Bloodmirror Tank.
We will try it today or sunday in 25.

Sry for my bad english :D

Yagamoth
01-28-2010, 01:56 AM
So, I can confirm, that it is NOT the DPS to hit the boss first, yesterday we had our hunter do the first hit on her, and our rogue got bitten. I forgot to activate omen - not really needing it as a healer - and we simply downed her on the first attempt so I could not ask for any further tests.

Up to now, the option of the dps behind the bloodmirror tank in threat seems to be the best bet.

Shortypop
01-28-2010, 02:17 AM
I'd be sceptical about the dps under the bloodmirror tank, on 10man our bloodmirror tank (me) only devastated (3times to stack sunders) and thunderclapped once before the first vampire to make sure that I was low on threat. Our holy pally was 2nd near the start of the fight with 2 dps overtaking him before the first bite, one of whom (2nd overall) got bitten and I was definitely below all of them.

Yagamoth
01-28-2010, 02:34 AM
Well, the choice might be somewhat randomize in case the offtank is below everyone else. Also we still don't know the exact moment when she decides to bite whom.

marklar
01-28-2010, 10:26 AM
I'd be sceptical about the dps under the bloodmirror tank, on 10man our bloodmirror tank (me) only devastated (3times to stack sunders) and thunderclapped once before the first vampire to make sure that I was low on threat. Our holy pally was 2nd near the start of the fight with 2 dps overtaking him before the first bite, one of whom (2nd overall) got bitten and I was definitely below all of them.

well, if you were dead last on threat, then perhaps she goes back to the MT and selects the next person. any idea if you were ahead of anyone at all on threat?

so far, first on agro table beneath the OT is the best theory - can anyone disprove it?

Bashal
01-28-2010, 10:52 AM
so far, first on agro table beneath the OT is the best theory - can anyone disprove it?

I agree; while not conclusive, the data does support the theory. Obviously if true, it would do something different if the mirror tank is last on threat, so we need more data. :)

marklar
01-28-2010, 11:11 AM
i was just reading the main BQL thread, and there's a theory that she keeps a separate agro table for the bite that ignores agro-dumps, like feign, tricks, etc.

interesting twist, but it would help explain why it's so hard to narrow down the exact mechanic.

Illicist
01-28-2010, 01:29 PM
Her bite is based on current threat at the 15 second mark, where she does the bite. She will bite either second or third in threat, as to which, it is totally random between the two. The reasoning behind this mechanic seems to simply be balancing issues, for if it where not threat based she would randomly bite healers or lower dps which will result in a lack of dps.

marklar
01-28-2010, 02:00 PM
Her bite is based on current threat at the 15 second mark, where she does the bite. She will bite either second or third in threat, as to which, it is totally random between the two. The reasoning behind this mechanic seems to simply be balancing issues, for if it where not threat based she would randomly bite healers or lower dps which will result in a lack of dps.

but she does bite healers.

brain
01-28-2010, 02:44 PM
she only bites healers if you have a raid full of terribles holding back damage too long. The mechanic is completely controllable after killing her on both 10 and 25 every week since her release, I believe it is threat based.

After 40 attempts (10+25) i've never seen a healer get bitten once.

It is very easy to control who is getting the first bite just by adjusting your raid's threat at the start of the fight.

Odok
01-28-2010, 04:14 PM
she only bites healers if you have a raid full of terribles holding back damage too long. The mechanic is completely controllable after killing her on both 10 and 25 every week since her release, I believe it is threat based.

After 40 attempts (10+25) i've never seen a healer get bitten once.

It is very easy to control who is getting the first bite just by adjusting your raid's threat at the start of the fight.

Constructive...

In 10 I've seen our shaman healer get the bite three times, each time every single dpser was above him in threat and (obviously) damage done.

I have some examples to report:

For a few attempts, in an effort to figure out the bite mechanic, we had all DPS off except the one who we wanted to get the bite first. He got the bite every single time except for one attempt where he accidentally passed the OT in threat. In that attempt she bit a healer. After that we did each attempt with Misdirect/Tricks poured into the off-tank and with everyone DPSing ASAP again. The person who was highest on threat always got the bite, since the OT threat was now about equal with the MT (even swapped aggro to ensure threat was fine). In fact in one attempt I just had the OT taunt at ~10 seconds and I immediately taunted back. However, there was also one attempt where our rogue went above the OT in threat, and then back below it before the 15 second mark and it skipped over him, hitting the next highest threat (who never went over the OT).

From that I can conclude:
It's not based on TPS, unless the aggro boost from a taunt is factored in.
It hits whoever is directly beneath the OT in threat, no matter where the OT's threat is at.
Passing the OT in threat at any point will remove you from the bite list AND/OR she does the primer for the bite well before the 15 second mark.
It's not based on damage done or DPS for the simple fact that she bites healers.

brain
01-29-2010, 08:54 AM
post some logs of your healer-bite attempts for analysis.

Illicist
01-29-2010, 10:24 AM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lvlsh8grcwmppl88/sum/damageDone/?enc=wipes&boss=37955
Best I can do for proof atm, was the first half of our attempts for this week. Anyways, we manipulated it so that one of the mages and one of the hunters competed for second and third in threat. I believe one or the other was bitten first for all but one attempt, where the warrior stole third on threat just before the bite and got it on himself.

As I said, it goes to whoever is second or third on threat when she bites. I'll post another log from last night in a little bit.

Odok
01-29-2010, 11:35 AM
post some logs of your healer-bite attempts for analysis.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nerl2su06e56co6r/analyze/dd/source/?s=8032&e=8136

DPS for one of our healer bite attempts for the first 20 seconds. You can see that there is plenty of damage being done by all the DPS from the beginning.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nerl2su06e56co6r/analyze/dt/spell/?source=149&s=8032&e=8136&target=20

Showing Sybelle, our resto shaman, getting the bite.

It also happened in attempt #8, one of our control attempts, where Slagle (our rogue) was the only one DPSing in the beginning.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nerl2su06e56co6r/analyze/dd/source/?s=11286&e=11475

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nerl2su06e56co6r/analyze/dt/spell/?source=149&s=11286&e=11475&target=20

marklar
01-29-2010, 11:38 AM
she only bites healers if you have a raid full of terribles holding back damage too long.
not helpful - please don't post things like this. the point of this thread is to explore what people are observing and figure out the mechanics. i'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that if you can get to BQL, you probably don't have a raid full of terrible dps that can't out-threat the healers. i think it's much more likely that in some raids, the OT doesn't bother to work up much threat, and so ALL of the dps end up between the MT and OT with only the healers left below.


However, there was also one attempt where our rogue went above the OT in threat, and then back below it before the 15 second mark and it skipped over him, hitting the next highest threat (who never went over the OT).
well, there are two way to actually interpret this. what you said about passing the OT removing you from the threat table is possible, but i actually suspect something else here. you mentioned using tricks, and there is some evidence that BQL keeps a separate agro table that ignores threat-reducing abilities. so it's possible that although your rogue was under the OT in actual threat, he was above the OT in the "special" bite agro table, and therefore did not get bitten.


we manipulated it so that one of the mages and one of the hunters competed for second and third in threat.
i'm assuming you mean 2nd & 3rd behind the OT? or 2nd and 3rd overall? both mages and rogues have abilities that alter their "real" agro table (MD, mirror/invis) so some of the randomness you are observing may be due to the "special" bite agro table being slightly different.

the "special" bite-agro table is just a working theory right now and may or may not exist. however, i am of the opinion that there is not a random component. last night, i told our spriest to try and stay highest on the threat table behind the OT - he got bitten all 4 pulls, but then we killed her and so i don't have a bigger sample size to work with.

brain
01-29-2010, 11:49 AM
From all the evidence so far (including our own attempts) I believe that the player below the OT ( Blood Mirror Tank ) is the target of the first bite.

So like someone pointed out above, if you have a threat table like :

MT
DPS 1
OT
HEALER 1
.. REST OF RAID ..

The HEALER 1 player will be bitten.

What we do is have 2 selected DPS players try to stay just below the OT in threat until the first bite (both 10 and 25). This way if one of them fails you have a backup. The two players we select are the first two to be bitten so if you have some sort of "bite order" it won't matter which of these two players gets bitten first.

I'm not sure if MD/ToT work for any of this, but we were using it on our OT to boost his threat.

Odok
01-29-2010, 01:08 PM
well, there are two way to actually interpret this. what you said about passing the OT removing you from the threat table is possible, but i actually suspect something else here. you mentioned using tricks, and there is some evidence that BQL keeps a separate agro table that ignores threat-reducing abilities. so it's possible that although your rogue was under the OT in actual threat, he was above the OT in the "special" bite agro table, and therefore did not get bitten.

I just mentioned Tricks as a general comment. He wasn't actually using it since he was our intended first bite.

marklar
01-29-2010, 01:41 PM
take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYr5YTW1fU) - it's our kill from last night, and it's from the perspective of our spriest, who was our intended bite victim.
at 27 sec - omen is:
MT
OT
SP

at 33 sec - omen is:
MT
SP
OT

at 36 sec - omen is:
MT
OT
SP

SP gets bitten at 36 sec. he is 1st below the OT at that point, although he did pass him for a bit. he is also 2nd on total damage, which is another strike against the total damage theory.

Yagamoth
02-01-2010, 02:20 AM
You'd also have to take the healling into account the SP has done. Since several healers got bitten already - including myself - I'd say the healling "aggro" for the table is not divided by 2 as usual.

brain
02-01-2010, 10:32 AM
for what its worth:

From a designer/developer standpoint it doesn't make a lot of sense to implement a brand new player list mechanic for this encounter. Especially when a healer getting first bite is probably going to cause a hard enrage on 25man.

Unger
02-01-2010, 10:48 AM
We have 4 10 mans that have BQ down in my guild.... and our 25 got him to a 400k wipe last night (/cry). Our experience is that it is not threat based or damage based. We have seen healers get it.... and dps as well.

Our theory is that she keeps track of the first few people she "recognizes", meaning, that are on her threat table, regardless of how insignificant on a list. She then removes the tank and the mirror target from that list and bites the next person in line.

Rolling hots on a tank could tick before a dps gets a shot in, Leader of the Pack, battle shout, etc all get you on the threat table (even if its for a small amount).

The good news is that we ran in with a few healers, the tanks and the one dps that we wanted to get the bite and we were able to get it to him a good portion of the time. So I caveat this as anecdotal.... but this was our experience.

We will do some more testing in 10 mans this week.....

marklar
02-01-2010, 01:17 PM
my feeling is this is going to be very predictable once the mechanic is figured out - sort of a Hateful Strike 2.0.

i'm not convinced that there's anything random about it. we didn't do any expertimental pulls in our group, but whatever we were doing was resulting in the same person getting bitten almost all of the time.

one thing i'd like to ask healers who are getting bitten - could you please talk to your OT and see what he's doing at the beginning of the fight? in our case, the OT is going about his normal threat rotation, and so is usually sitting at #2. since the OT doesn't actually NEED to build threat, i can imagine in some cases they may be slow in getting their threat up - perhaps focusing on getting up debuffs, etc.

hvidgaard
02-01-2010, 03:28 PM
Given the strict dps requirement, the OT should do as much damage as possible. We even had him go DPS spec with tank gear on (and a dps weapon). I cannot really remember the details, but I'm fairly sure it's not aggro/threat based (at least not in the conventional way). We had our resto druid being bitten, and I'm 100% sure he was in the buttom 3 among the 3 healers, and we had various dps being bitten. nothing obvious linked to the damage done or threat tabel at the time of the bite.

Illicist
02-01-2010, 07:46 PM
The bite goes out to second or third in threat at 15 seconds. MT will be first. Ot should not be second, OT in this fight is nothing more than a soaker that stacks on top of the tank, which is the entire purpose of it (blood mirror goes to whoever is cloest in proximity to MT, it is not threat based).

I have already linked a log in the first page of this thread that is evidence within I believe it was 8 or 9 attempts of 25 man, and in all but one attempt where the warrior stole threat at the last second, one of two people gotten bitten, and these people did not 'attack before anyone else' they used heavy amoutns of burst damage right off the bat and literally tried to steal threat from the mt the very second he started the fight up until the 15 second mark. Hence, they were considerably higher in threat than most others. Very easy to manipulate.

FeawenShadows
02-06-2010, 11:33 AM
Last night we had four attempts, last one at 5% :(. But anyways back on track, Arc Mage everytime. Last week we expended our attempts on her. Arc Mage was bitten 8 out 10 times on her.