View Full Version : Officers not acting like Officers
01-27-2010, 03:43 PM
My guild primarily focuses on our core 10 man's, although we do host 25's we rarely have the numbers to make it an entirely guild run and bring in 3-4 DPS to get things off the ground. Two nights ago we decided to take some of lesser geared alts in to ToC 25. Everyone's gear was sufficient for the raid but since it was last tier content, most of the guildies that don't have alts obviously were not that interested. We ended up pugging about 15 slots when it was all said and done.
I was raid leader and master looter. We 1 shot'd northrend beasts with out any real problems, a mage ran the wrong way during Icehowl and enraged him, but our tanks were able to handle it and we still got the kill. As I was doing loot the mage happened to win the trophy that came along with it. I also noticed that the mage only pulled about 2ish k damage. I gave him the trophy anyways, seeing as A) Last tier gear B) We didn't lay down any special loot rules.
One of my officers complained about it, that we shouldn't be gearing up people that dont know what they are doing. I told him that's just how it is, it's not worth the drama of giving it to some one else. He offered to do ML, I personally didn't think anything of it, but decided to oblige him and passed him ML. I contuinted to assign tank and heals to certain assignments, and called out kill orders.
LJ we knocked out with no problems, and we only had 1 raider die to a whirlwind on Fraction Champions. All in all, looking like a fairly successful PuG. Until Boots of the Mourning Widow (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47092) droped. Cloth spirit feet. Fellow priest officer and main raider guildie (who comes with us to ICC 10 and 25) happens to need these. She has gotten unlucky for a long time and is currently wearing 232 boots from heroics. However she looses the roll again by a very large margin. She then asks guildies to roll on it for her.
(This is not something that I approve of but have turned a blind eye to when it does happen, end of the day I would rather see gear go to a guildie but that is still rather underhanded)
The officer doing Master Loot, (Currently playing an elemental shaman) rolls on it for her, wins the roll, loots it to himself and then trades it to the priest guldie that wanted it. Understandably most of the people that wanted this item start freaking out. Calling us a ninja guild, asking which guildie REALLY got that item and so on. We had 2-3 people quit raid right then. I step'd in, re promoted myself to ML, got the item from the priest and gave it to the ACTUAL winner of the roll. (Ignoring my own guild rolls for something I know that didn't need), I then apologize in vent for what happens and finish looting. The rest of the raid is in stony silence and most of the guild is saying that I did the right thing. We down the Twins...but just barely and it takes a wipe to do it. The raid begins to fall apart, I call it after one very very messy attempt on Anub.
As people quit the raid, the shaman officer quit's the guild and logs off with out saying anything. Understandably he is upset. I figure that he just needs time to cool off and let everything slide. When he logs on the next day, I sent him a guild invite and ask how he is doing. He ignores me and declines guild invite. He continues to play on his other toons that are in guild. When a guildie starts up a raid for the weekly, as soon as I accept invite, he quits.
I don't quite know his plans yet, but I have already lined up a replacement for his toon in our raids (Along with his real life girl friend that raids with us, I assume if one goes, the other will follow). But at this point, I am wondering if I did the right thing?
I don't feel like the former officer is upset with the guild, more me personally. Does any have thoughts on how to aproach him? At this point I am tempted to just wash my hands of the situation and boot his remaning toons from guild. While I do feel that what he did was not only wrong, but poorly handled. I don't think its fair to blame him only. Calling out what I felt like a wrong decision in vent then publically correcting it might not of been the best way to handle it. But at the same time... doing that sort of thing should at least come with unspoken rules. This is the first time something so blatant has ever happened (before it has always been a warlock trading cloth to a mage for example).
I stand by what I did, if a PuG comes with us to wipe, the PuG deserves a fair shot at the loot. I can understand his motivation, he just wanted guildies to get gear and this is partly my fault for creating an atmosphere in which this kind of loot shenanigans can happen. What should I do about this guildie? I feel like him and the priest are at fault here and this is not how I expect my officers to act, but I am unsure what exactly I should do about this.
Thanks for reading.
01-27-2010, 04:25 PM
His approach, while it's something i definitely wouldnt condone either, isnt uncommon at all. And i'd have to say, the underhanded method is one way of solving it. Trading it immediately was probably the wrong idea there though, if you're going to a dirty trick, you dont want to announce it :P. (by "underhanded", i mean your reference to rolling on items for other people and then trading. There is absolutely no acceptable reason for keeping the mage out of loot when no prior looting rule was established)
Now i dont like doing the everyone-need thing at all myself. But we also happen to have an EXCELLENT raider who's extremely - and i mean crazy extreme - unlucky with loot (he managed to complete SSC & TK, and by complete i mean the whole content patch, however months of it, without getting a single piece of loot. that streak really broke him down to a point that he stopped raiding and still doesnt for that matter). So in some cases, it becomes easier to turn a blind eye to things.
What you did was to follow good form and protect the reputation of your guild. Once the cat was out, it had to be done. The tricklish part is getting this explained to him. I'd venture to say, if the rest of the puggers werent made aware of the loot transfer, the issue would have been one of good form/bad form instead of right/wrong. Apparently he's not interested in listening to you so you might need to find an intermediatery. One other problem you might be facing is that while most people may be saying to you "you did the right thing", secretly they'll probably be rooting for the other guy. You might need to do the explaining in a more public way maybe. They will still not like it but they have to realize that you cant be known as the "ninja guild".
In your shoes, i'd have done the same but i do understand the other guy and it'd be hard to call him "wrong".
When faced with similar situations, i try to take the following quote from "Shibumi" as my guide - but not always:
"The major virtues tend to disintegrate under the pressures of convenient rationalization. But good form is good form, and it stands immutable in the storm of circumstance."
I guess the shaman is a little bit ashamed and embarassed.
Yes, this was quite underhanded and cloth boot upgrades are amazingly scarce for healing priests(I also have 232 boots which was an upgrade from 213 boots, don't ask).
We're all not immune to doing something stupid and I don't know if I hadn't done something similiar like your ML if I hadn't thought about it.
Just don't embarass him any further and build a golden bridge for him so he can preserve his dignity.
He is being unreasonable but that's not too uncommon behaviour when you are in the devensive.
Just also remember that by reverting his decision you embarassed him in front of a lot of pugs. If you had stuck to the decision the bad reputation would have been distributed all across the guild which from his point of view would have been a better outcome. Now he has to carry most of the burden by himself. And that's where he will need help.
Dealing wiht peopl ain't easy :/
01-28-2010, 03:39 AM
You did the right thing..You took the moral high ground and that is exactly what people expect from a leader. I would not waver a bit with him and I would give him an ultimatum to get over it and return to the guild on his main or you are left with no other recourse but to replace him..If he forces your hand I would make it plainly simple to your guild that you gave him ample opportunity and you were left with no other recourse.And you decision was based on whats best for the guild and moving forward..Drama is never productive especially when its drug out for extra attention..
01-28-2010, 06:35 AM
You protected your guild and took the best choice for 'the greater good'.
The best option you can do is to set up rules for PuGs in the future (ours is /roll, main > off spec and prio goes to those that have won less items than you before). Show that you have learned from this. adding rules such as "Failing on tactics = no loot over anyone else" (icehowl charge, running in snobolds, not changing target on jaraxxus, ....) might help.
Make a macro for it, post it whenever you have PuGs in your raid. If they complain, ask if they rather want to replaced than comply (this usually works for us :P).
As for your Sham officer:
Send him an ingame mail. Tell him that you (plural) have made the mistake of not clearing out lootrules before the run and although you (single) understand his decision, you simply thought the guild's reputation was more important than a pair of boots. Offer a talk about it if he disagrees with that so you can clear it out (and hear his side of the story!). Make clear thought that the current situation of him avoiding you at all costs (such as dropping raid) is hurting all guild members and he will have to choose between working towards a solution or simply leave with all his chars if he does not think he can agree with you.
In general you will want to stay open for criticism if founded, but know when to follow it and when to stick to your guilds principles.
01-28-2010, 07:35 AM
You did the right thing. If we rewind the story a bit, he asked for ML so he could end run your loot rules; he had a clear intent to ninja, despite your stating in the first instance that PuG's have a fair shot at the loot (as they should). Calling him out, aplogizing and correcting the wrong were all the right things to do. It's not easy being a leader, and I question people who make the job more difficult by taking advantage of a relationship with the one in charge.
01-28-2010, 07:53 AM
So the shammy that rolled on spirit/cloth to "help out" a guildie gquit. He probably feels like he was held out as the scapegoat for something that another officer asked all your guildies to do. He took the blame for the rest of the guild's actions. How does the priest officer that asked for everyone to roll feel about what happened? She should be the one apologizing to him for putting him in a difficult position.
As for giving loot to ppl that perform poorly, well that's where you have to get a little creative about the loot rules. One of my guildies runs a 25 man pug on the weekends. And the loot rules go something like this:
-Two main spec pieces per run. You'll still have main spec prio over someone's off spec even if you're at two pieces
-Armor proficiency takes prio. (cloth to clothies, leather to leather wearers, etc.)
-Mp5 is generaly for healers (ele shammies excepted), spirit isn't for pallies or shammies, and hit goes to DPS casters.
-you're second class citizen for loot prio to other main specs if you die to a "stupid" (for that boss)
Examples of "stupids":
-Standing in fire while goromok is up
-Checking to see if the worm's spew breath is as bad as the tank says it is (if you're the only one that died, it's your fault. if six other ppl died at the same time, it might be the tank's fault)
-Letting the big yeti smash your face in when he charges
-Dying to legion flames on LJ
-eating multiple orbs within seconds of eachother on twins
-not changing color for the vortex on twins.
-pulling threat and getting you or someone else killed in the process is ALWAYS a stupid.
Combat log is examined to be sure that deaths were the player's fault and not due to lack of heals.
It really is amazing how much better the average pug pays attention when they know their chance at rolling on loot is on the line.
Stuff like that is simple, the hard part is looking at performance. Saying anything under X dps doesn't qualify for loot will generally hurt more than it helps. People won't DPS adds like their supposed to because it will lower their damage, and you'll end up wtih a less successful raid because of it. Replace people early, if you see someone's damage low after the first boss, tell them they need to pick it up. If it's still low after the second, and there isn't a valid reason, replace or take the chaces on dealing with the fallout of giving loot to the poor performer.
Loot going to someone who is "less deserving" is always a possibility in pugs. If you're up front about what you expect from ppl, the raid will go better, and you'll have far less loot drama.
01-28-2010, 09:26 AM
I've seen this kind of complaint about giving loot to pug players before.
If you have clearly stated loot rules like "this is a guild-hosted run, trophies can only be rolled on by us", or even rules I find are personally detestable like "4k dps minimum or no loot", that's one thing.
But this guy wanted to implement rules like that on the sly, and that isn't cool. And permit me to say that this guy deserved to be embarrassed by his poor behavior. You aren't obligated to cover for him. He set himself up for it, you told him it would cause problems, and he should have seen you had the right of it. To paraphrase Lore in his recent loot system video, "this is what we nerds call a 'dick move'". And he's now done several of those in a row.
As everyone else has been saying, you did the right thing. Stick to your guns.
01-28-2010, 03:57 PM
I truly appreciate everyones input here,, while I dont know if I will be following all of it, it has been very helpful.
"The major virtues tend to disintegrate under the pressures of convenient rationalization. But good form is good form, and it stands immutable in the storm of circumstance."
This along did set my mind at ease quite a bit. I really like that quote. Thank you. :P
I was placed in lead of the guild about 2-3 months ago, the former GM quit and I was leading all the raids so it was the obvious pick. While I do like dealing with people, the only real reason that I was raid leading was that I enjoyed playing with the encounters. While I was the one picked to lead it was with the understanding that the other officers remain and we Co-GM together. Now... these other 2 officers are the priest and shaman. Obviously I am now having my doubts.
The shaman has been a "problem player" of sorts. It's not that he is a poor player, just an over critical one. Whenever a wipe happens he points out what happens and what needs to change. Which does make him very useful, however the problem is that he tends to come down on that person fairly hard. Which, again has its pluses, an attack dog of sorts I suppose... but he brings a general air of tension with him.
I talked to the priest (along with my remaining officer) about what happened, and she was fairly suprised by the shamans behavior as well. She thought he handled it poorly and was out of line, and that /gquit'ing is a collosal over reaction. However... the shaman, on only one of his alts has joined another guild, the priest has also quit on one of her alts and joined this other guild. The two of them are personally pretty close, so I think that may be why he was willing to take more of a personal risk in looting the boots to himself. Is there a particular safe or cushioned way to deal with the possibility of my officers leaving? (While I am not sure this is the case, I can see the writing on the wall at times)
I have attempted to talk to the shaman a few times since the event, including through vent and he is giving me one word answers and ignoring me completely and addressing others.
What sort of repercussions should I expect if I were to simply boot him? He is a friend and I do enjoy talking to him, but this sort of drama is just getting tiring. (And far from a isolated incident) I have given him space, and tried to let him cool off, but when days pass and he still can't be bothered to respond is it worth the effort?
Ultimately I suppose I will find all the answers when our main raid on Friday comes around. Not only if he shows, but what his attitude is if / when he does. While I do want to give him time to chill if that's what he needs, I also don't want my off tank to flip out half way through the raid and leave the rest of us scrounging for PuG's in trade while we get attempts in our gated bosses.
On a simmiliar note, I mentioned that while I am happy being GM, this was not exactly what I had in mind when I started raid leading. While I am not trying to QQ, I feel almost at a loss at how to deal with these sort of situations. Prior to this incident I start checking book stores in the business secition for books on mangment, dealing with employees and diffusing conflicts. Obviously not everything is totally relevant, but I was wondering if anyone had a particular book, blog or website they might recommend for dealing with these sorts of information.
While I am extremly grateful for the help given here (and it is easily the best out of all the avenues I tried) I dont want to run to these forums I have a guildie sneer at me.
01-28-2010, 04:42 PM
I don't have time to read all the replies, so sorry if this has been said:
TLDR: Talk to him about it. Maybe consider not re-promoting him to officer upon re-invite to guild.
Well first thing you should do is talk to him about it. Explain everything to him as you did to us. See what he thinks. Listen to what he has to say too.
Although at this point I'm not sure if I would re-promote him to officer. Officers should be calm and cool; not rage-quitting. Maybe he should be a member instead. If you do decide to make him just a member, explain that you can't have officers raging and crap, especially if you're doing public pugs as your rep will get around about 'so and so, the raging officer of blah blah'. Makes recruting kinda tough.
01-28-2010, 04:45 PM
Ah I just read your last post. If you've tried to talk to him and he won't talk, just move on. You could re-invite him as a member only. I would never re-promote him back to officer unless it had been a long, long time and he had noticably changed (e.g. he needs to mature a bit).
01-29-2010, 05:02 AM
Remove his alts from the guild immidiantly. He doesn't reply to your whispers and leaves you no other choice at all, and by removing his alts he is forced to make contact himself if he wants this matter resolved instead of playing martyr or whatever.
For further endavours with PUG-ing, assuming you use the same loot rules, tell your members to take it up with the person who won and offer some gold for the item. Then it's a two person deal that doesn't reflect on your guild.
01-30-2010, 05:46 AM
You did the right thing. I agree with previous posters, I'm not sure this guy is one you want as an officer long term. I would also have a few issues with the priest who wanted others to roll on it for her.
01-30-2010, 09:14 AM
I would say the best thing you could do is take what you can from this situation to strengthen your guild and its policies.
When someone "emo rage quits", meaning they don't talk about their reasons for leaving first, all of their characters should be instantly kicked. Additionally they should not be invited back for any reason (though there may be some extreme circumstance, but that's rare). People that you want to take back are ones that take the time to explain why they are leaving. You want rational, cool headed people around you. Especially the ones who are officers.
Establish your loot rules before loot drops. No matter what your doing 10, 25, new, old, it dosent matter. Lay out the rules before you start and Do Not Alter them mid run. It only causes drama and puts you in a bad spot.
Last night I almost had a situation along the same lines. I was running my usual off night ICC 10. We had 1 regular and 2 backups that were unavailable, so we brought in a PuG. Long story short a Staff dropped that would have been a big upgrade to a member thus furthering the guild in the 10 run and more importantly our 25 run. It went to the PuG that was there for 1 night. I started to have side conversations with the people involved to decide if I should ask the PuG to pass it to a member. In the end I kept to my original loot rules and the PuG kept it, without knowing the behind the scenes conversation.
In the future on the rare occasion where I have to PuG a slot I think I will say: "You are welcome to greed on anything you like, however this run is meant to gear our members so on some specific items they will have priority to need over you." Slightly unfair I know, but the purpose stands that's what were there for. The PuG still gets Rep,Frosts, and a decent shot at some loot since most of us are half 264 anyway.
01-31-2010, 10:31 AM
You did the right thing Bodasafa,
If you're going to come back on that call, and even with warning beforehand, what you should.
I personally would tell you that will struggle to find any good capable people that will make that run a succes not to mention, your guild reputation will take a hit as my personal reaction would be 'wait i minute so i put in time and effort and are rated second class due to a different guild tag, screw you guys, you need me not the otherway around'
People will always whine about loot, it didn't went to a guildie so what?
It went to a person that helped you get where you were otherwise you should've 9 manned it, the person was there, the person did his part therefor the person is entitled to the loot. Regardless of guild name.
That's the logic i follow, if people from my guild complain about it, i make the above very clear to them. I would've even gone so far to say that the next time it happend there would be no raid as people have issues with pugs being taken in and seen as equal to an extent. Cause i prefer to raid not that night then to be know as that type of guild. Do not give in to the whines, it's a slippery slope.
Cause next time that person will start to bitch about it going to a new member in guild or a member that they think isn't equal in their eyes and more internal conflicts will happen and groups will be formed within.
However, if you carried him or her, almost cost wipes etc, then he or she should've been replaced and i can come more into the complaints other but even then.
The other however is also true, if a pug whines about not winning it when he has an equal chance, whispers people about it, tells others to pass etc. they will be instantly removed from the raid.
02-02-2010, 03:32 AM
Never yield to people's greed and "shifting of the line"
Players the likes of that shaman are best to be given their marching orders.
As the raid leader or worse the GM of a guild you have the responsibility of upholding the moral rules. You'll always be under scrutiny by your entire guild and your behaviour reflects what's acceptable and what isn't. And remember once you "yield once" it won't stop there.
There is no excuse for "rolling" when you don't need the item. If there are puggers in a guild run, agree to the loot terms before proceeding. NEVER wait until a loot drops to determine how it will be distributed.
02-02-2010, 09:59 AM
Out of curiosity, was anything done about the member who asked other guildies to roll on the item for her? In my opinion that reflects just as badly on the guild as your officer that actually ninja'd the item.
02-02-2010, 09:25 PM
You will occasionally come across officers, friends and raiders who will either do the same thing he did, or expect you to do the same for them. I am notorious for not playing favorites and dolling out loot fairly, regardless of how long someone has been waiting for it, or how good of a friend they are. I've even pissed off my girlfriend because she didn't win 6 pieces of loot and I refused to give them to her over the person who fairly won them.
You did the right thing and if he can't handle it, ignore him. There's no point in letting it bother you - the loot rules were set from the start of the raid and were functioning perfectly well until that happened, and you stepped in and re-corrected the issue.
I would say well done, and to continue doing the same.
02-21-2010, 08:08 AM
You did the right thing for sure, there is no other way about it, however the priest officer who asked the guild mates to do this should be reprimanded in some way as well.
One thing my guild does is an optional ToC25 each week we allot one hour for it, and there are about 4 items that are reserved for guild only roles, as they are the entire reason we are running the raid in the first place. In most cases we end up with around 18-20 guildies, alts etc and fill the final 5-7 spots in trade. The first thing that is done is I ensure the pugs get in our vent as we do everything the same way the hard modes are done, once that is done I go over the loot rules in vent and outline the items that are reserved. Following that I put in raid chat the date and reiterate those items, along with our 4k dps requirement, the you fail no loot requirement, and the once you get one MS item you go to the bottom of the roll list suicide king style. BoE's go to the guild bank period you cannot roll on them, I take a SS of that and we go. I have had cases of forum posts with the player who got hit by icehowl, pulled under 4k dps etc post that we are ninjas, however I also ensure to take SS of recount following each kill with body and loot window open, along with a SS of ensidafails report following the encounter. While I have been bombarded with your guild is ninja's during the first few times it happened while we were in ICC we have a very solid reputation and these SS's have ensured that it remains the same.