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Thorall
01-26-2010, 09:56 AM
So in a quick summary of my last two days someone gquit then an officer then another and another. Drama ensues then a few members and finally the GM hands it to me. After 4 hours of sorting things out a lot of calm discussion over vent im able to save 8 of 10 members of our ICC 10 man bringing back 2 officers. At this point I have 15-20 members 40 toons. I openly told everyone last night if you wish to leave I understand but this is our new direction and here is how I would like us to get there. I quickly appointed a raid leader in front of everyone so there is no debate and things quickly began looking up. As a group we discussed what rolls people would like to fill and recruit very few (1 or 2) to fill spots. I want who we have to be happy with their roles currently so there is no more drama. I understand I may lose more but at this time its either sink or progress.Where my questions begin is here.1. By guild meeting friday should I have guild rules raid rules and a small guild portal (its free) site ready so people know my intentions?2. The bank is stocked but I lost a major supplier in the fold. I'd like to appoint someone that way its out of my hands. I am right in doing this? 3. What am I missing, to get kicked off on the right foot? this is all being posted from my mobile phone so if i dont respond until 330est hang with me on this

nethervoid
01-26-2010, 12:01 PM
When my old guild reformed under me, here's what I did:

1. Got a guild portal site up

This only takes about half an hour max. The first thing you need to do is set up a common area for everyone to communicate offline. Forums are integral for most guildies to talk about issues and/or have a central, user-friendly place to stay caught up on current guild policies.

Number 1 priority here should be to set up forums. I recommend at least a Public (for potential recruits and outward facing discussion), General, Raiding (for strats and raid discussion), and Officer forums. Should cover all your immediate needs.

2. Get a vent server up

If you don't already have one, you need to get a vent server up immediately. Sounds like you have one though. This takes about another half hour to set up. Super easy.

3. Create a list of potential policies

Make a detailed list of potential policies. Try to keep it under 10 policies at all times. KISS Keep it Simple Stupid. Low overhead is what you want in a guild, because as the leader you are going to be expending lots of energy on regular guild stuff, so you don't want to bog yourself down with complicated policies and procedures.

Once you have this short list together, post them on the site for membership discussion. This has two huge benefits. The first is you will get great ideas from some members, because 15 brains thinking about something is usually better than 1. Second, you will get some buy in if you listen to the membership, which will make leading these people that much easier. For one they will, for the most part, agree with how the guild is being run. Secondly they'll respect you for listening to their concerns.

4. Get a recruit thread up with all the pert info in your Public forum (doesn't have to be by this Friday, but ASAP)

Turnover can really kill a guild, and you really need to get your recruting drive going ASAP.

You want to put a post up that details:

- Classes/roles you need to fill
- Raid times
- Expectations
- How to apply

Here's a link to my guild's site. Click the forums tab and check out our public forums. Should give you an example to how I set up our recruit and policy info. Really simple and easy to maintain.

http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=340051&TabID=2846694&PageName=Home

5. Guild bank

Guild bank is not something that has to have anything immediately, but if you have a larger guild (20+), it really helps to assign an officer to handle the bank and its policies.

6. Promoting officers

When it comes time to promote officers, make sure you promote only people who are willing and want to contribute to the guild by leading. They should, for the most part, be comfortable running a raid if they happen to be the only officer on. Before you promote anyone, start thinking of a role you really would like help with, and then think of a member in the guild who you think would be good leading this area of the guild (for you this might be an officer to run the bank). Then talk to them about the work you'd like them to take on if they'd like to promote and help out.

Make sure to stay away from promoting officers who just sit there and never contribute. Even if they don't say it, members notice and will be bitter about it. This goes double for any of your officers that are actually helping with things. Sucks to be doing work, even if it's voluntary, when another worker is just standing around with their thumb up their bum.

Also, don't just re-promote the old officers for no other reason than they were officers in the old guild. This is a new guild and a new start. This is your one time to correct wrongs like someone who was an officer who probably shouldn't have been (the person who never was willing to contribute).

---------------------------------

There's loads more I could say, but I think this is a good start for you at this juncture.

Proletaria
01-26-2010, 01:28 PM
1. Figure out what YOU and your friends want out of the guild.
2. Put it in writting somewhere.
3. Promote people to help you attain those goals.
4. Generate policies to help you attain those goals.

Only after you do all this should you consider authoring a web-page, renting a vent server, or recruiting more players.

nethervoid
01-26-2010, 01:49 PM
I disagree. Hard to collaberate on policies without forums. Hard to talk about what you and your friends want without a vent server. Hard to raid without a vent server. Setting up a basic site w/forums and a vent server takes an hour. Renting a vent server for a month is about 15 bucks. Really easy. If you decide to make a more robust site later, you have all the time in the world after the reform is complete.

The way it sounds, his guild still has some raid momentum. If they wait to get rolling on the new guild, raiding, site, policies, and vent server, the guild could lose a lot of that momentum making the transition unecessarily harder. Kind of like the holiday effect on raid momentum. Or worst case scenario he loses a few more people to some other guild while they all wait for things to get rolling.

The collaberation on guild policies will probably take about 2 weeks to solidify. Gives everyone a chance to chime in.

Airowird
01-26-2010, 03:16 PM
nethervoids advice is pretty much spot on.
I'ld also like to add to #3;
Possible loot rule changes are important to keep people happy.
Simply making a thread on your forum where people can comment on the current system will do.
When "asking advice" through these threads do make clear that you do not promise any changes.
You don't want to start off with people having the feeling that they were "promised" something right when you start off a new venture with your guild.

Thorall
01-26-2010, 06:00 PM
Thanks guys from what i have read and who i have spoken to today online things are really looking up. Updates on things that have been discussed.

1. Spoke with the raid leader and he says as the RL he wanted to make sure i was fine with him having control over the raid on regarding who goes, who stays when we get to 25 man content but at the current time he is fine with those in the 10 raid and that pleased that open discussion was done to allow those to voice concerns from the start and make sure no one is upset when we get started.

2. A vent server has been established, 3 weeks ago we stalled at death whisper, 2 weeks ago same. Last friday we took a well comprised group and made it to saurfang...(guild blowed up after that) As said about holding up on the vent server we have 8 of the 10 raiders and i dont want to stall the progress.

3. I got a guild portal site up and rules and regs posted and all the officers know its there 3 of 4 have signed up and discussion has started on those forums about what needs changed and what doesnt. Also as a guild we decided to go the social progression route in that we only raid 2 nights a week but it is expected that you dont miss. Consistantly missing nights where we have to replace is a no no, and everyone understands that.

4. We lost someone who had 6 80's and filled roles we needed every week but the mage was the hardest loss so we are replacing a caster, Another officer with 5 80's left taking his druid healer thus we are replacing him with a pally healer. This is what the RL has suggested and being a friend of mine I am willing to abide to that.

5. One officer has stepped up willing to take care of organizing the Gbank based on suggestions of mine and another is willing to use his herbing rogue to gather herbs for pots.

6. Loot policy has not been established with only 10 people raiding we are /roll but the assortment of classes makes it so that myself and the off tank are the only two rolling against each other.

Outside of that things are running smoothly Im not ready to jump into recruiting as with member numbers down I can keep it simple then build to what we can handle as a guild.

thx for the suggestions if anyone thinks im missing something pls let me know.

Proletaria
01-26-2010, 10:52 PM
I disagree. Hard to collaberate on policies without forums. Hard to talk about what you and your friends want without a vent server. Hard to raid without a vent server. Setting up a basic site w/forums and a vent server takes an hour. Renting a vent server for a month is about 15 bucks. Really easy. If you decide to make a more robust site later, you have all the time in the world after the reform is complete.

The way it sounds, his guild still has some raid momentum. If they wait to get rolling on the new guild, raiding, site, policies, and vent server, the guild could lose a lot of that momentum making the transition unecessarily harder. Kind of like the holiday effect on raid momentum. Or worst case scenario he loses a few more people to some other guild while they all wait for things to get rolling.

The collaberation on guild policies will probably take about 2 weeks to solidify. Gives everyone a chance to chime in.

You cannot hope to have a guild that is both productive and stable until you've got your leadership (and any pre-existing members) on the same page as far as what the guild wants to do. Sure, having a forum makes idea swapping easier, but you can accomplish this prior to detailing a guild website. Most importantly you need a schedule everyone can adhere to, you need a loot system that everyone is OK with, and you need CLEAR rules and regulations for members. Nothing kills an up-start guild faster than the GM being the only person who knows what is going on. Unless you can be on 24/7 to direct traffic, you need to get your ideas down and get them across to everyone else helping you lead.

Momentum is great and I certainly wouldn't be slow to get these things done, but having a good start to a new administration is just as important as getting things off the ground quickly. Don't be hasty to get a raid filled and rolling if you don't have the details worked out.

nethervoid
01-27-2010, 01:23 PM
You cannot hope to have a guild that is both productive and stable until you've got your leadership (and any pre-existing members) on the same page as far as what the guild wants to do. Sure, having a forum makes idea swapping easier, but you can accomplish this prior to detailing a guild website. Most importantly you need a schedule everyone can adhere to, you need a loot system that everyone is OK with, and you need CLEAR rules and regulations for members. Nothing kills an up-start guild faster than the GM being the only person who knows what is going on. Unless you can be on 24/7 to direct traffic, you need to get your ideas down and get them across to everyone else helping you lead.

Momentum is great and I certainly wouldn't be slow to get these things done, but having a good start to a new administration is just as important as getting things off the ground quickly. Don't be hasty to get a raid filled and rolling if you don't have the details worked out.

Your statements are contradictory. How can you find out what schedule, loot policy, and rules and regs everyone agrees with and not be on 24/7 or have forums for offline discussion?

orcstar
01-27-2010, 03:11 PM
The most important is that your first raid is a good one. Make it a pleasant experience for everyone.

Proletaria
01-28-2010, 12:14 PM
Your statements are contradictory. How can you find out what schedule, loot policy, and rules and regs everyone agrees with and not be on 24/7 or have forums for offline discussion?
The GM must first decide the atmosphere, goals, and overall nature of the guild. You can't go out there with 5 friends and say "hey, we raid on monday and we use dkp, join my guild!" That isn't a good way to start a guild.

The GM decides beforehand: is the guild hardcore progression oriented? Is it a casual guild, pvp guild, raiding guild, friendly guild, hard-ass guild, family guild? What kind of people do you want in the guild? Older players who are more mature? Anyone who wants in? Younger players? Couples?

There are a ton of questions to ask yourself as a GM before you ever think of scheduling a raid. While most people assume that this only applies to those who are up-starts with their own guild, it matters a lot to those who take over a guild in trouble aswell. If you don't have a plan other than "we're just goin to keep raiding on tuesdays." Then chances are you will fall into a rut at the next cross-roads.

Players need to know they aren't being lead by completely arbitrary orders from an egomaniac (some exceptions). They need to know coming into the guild what it is all about. The GM decides what the guild is about. Not the raiders, not the social members, not the officers, but the GM. There are times when officers are great help in formulating these things, but by in large the GM will be taking the brunt of responsibility, time, and effort that comes with his/her title.

Read any GM'ing guilde out there worth it's salt and you will find HIGH on the list of things to do (if not always #1) is something like "ask yourself what you want to get out of this guild and write these ideas down."

Bashal
01-28-2010, 12:34 PM
...That isn't a good way to start a guild.

He's not exactly starting one though. He's picking up a ball someone else dropped, and looking at revamping things a bit.

A guild website, and vent for faster meetings (speaking is faster than typing), is a good way to ensure stuff is sorted out quickly and information is disseminated rapidly to existing members.

nethervoid
01-28-2010, 04:29 PM
The GM must first decide the atmosphere, goals, and overall nature of the guild. You can't go out there with 5 friends and say "hey, we raid on monday and we use dkp, join my guild!" That isn't a good way to start a guild.

The GM decides beforehand: is the guild hardcore progression oriented? Is it a casual guild, pvp guild, raiding guild, friendly guild, hard-ass guild, family guild? What kind of people do you want in the guild? Older players who are more mature? Anyone who wants in? Younger players? Couples?

There are a ton of questions to ask yourself as a GM before you ever think of scheduling a raid. While most people assume that this only applies to those who are up-starts with their own guild, it matters a lot to those who take over a guild in trouble aswell. If you don't have a plan other than "we're just goin to keep raiding on tuesdays." Then chances are you will fall into a rut at the next cross-roads.

Players need to know they aren't being lead by completely arbitrary orders from an egomaniac (some exceptions). They need to know coming into the guild what it is all about. The GM decides what the guild is about. Not the raiders, not the social members, not the officers, but the GM. There are times when officers are great help in formulating these things, but by in large the GM will be taking the brunt of responsibility, time, and effort that comes with his/her title.

Read any GM'ing guilde out there worth it's salt and you will find HIGH on the list of things to do (if not always #1) is something like "ask yourself what you want to get out of this guild and write these ideas down."

All of this mainly applies to creating a new guild. Also to running very large guilds. Smaller guilds have an easier time altering policies, raid times, etc to meet member desires as there are less to please, and a GM looking to stay GM should be aware of that for smaller guilds. The smaller they are, the easier they are to reform under new leadership.

If your purpose is to first serve the needs of yourself as GM, you shouldn't be GM and in the long run probably won't be GM, unless your guild is server-first hardcore raiding (and in this case you better be THE reason behind the guild's raid success). That's about the only place where 'what I say is law' works anymore. It worked more in the 72m raid guilds, but not really in the 25m and certainly not in the 10m guilds. It's easy to lead a guild these days. There's barely any work involved at all. lol Just reminicing here, but I remember when I would log in back in EQ days and throughout my play session I'd have from 4 to 6 or 7 tell windows up at any one time conducting guild business. Hell forming and buffing a raid took like 30 min to an hour, and that's with everyone logged in and ready to raid! Managing raids, schedules, and guild banks was a huge pain in the ass back then. Current raids and guilds are a breeze compared (mainly thanks to the in-game scheduler, better guild bank gui, raid wide buffs [early EQ only had single target...for 72+ people!]). There's really no reason anymore for members to stay in a guild with a dictator. My guild was just previously run by one of these guys who couldn't understand this, and now we all just kicked him out and took over, cause it's so damn easy and painless anybody can do it.

Proletaria
01-28-2010, 11:04 PM
All of this mainly applies to creating a new guild. Also to running very large guilds. Smaller guilds have an easier time altering policies, raid times, etc to meet member desires as there are less to please, and a GM looking to stay GM should be aware of that for smaller guilds. The smaller they are, the easier they are to reform under new leadership.

If your purpose is to first serve the needs of yourself as GM, you shouldn't be GM and in the long run probably won't be GM, unless your guild is server-first hardcore raiding (and in this case you better be THE reason behind the guild's raid success). That's about the only place where 'what I say is law' works anymore. It worked more in the 72m raid guilds, but not really in the 25m and certainly not in the 10m guilds. It's easy to lead a guild these days. There's barely any work involved at all. lol Just reminicing here, but I remember when I would log in back in EQ days and throughout my play session I'd have from 4 to 6 or 7 tell windows up at any one time conducting guild business. Hell forming and buffing a raid took like 30 min to an hour, and that's with everyone logged in and ready to raid! Managing raids, schedules, and guild banks was a huge pain in the ass back then. Current raids and guilds are a breeze compared (mainly thanks to the in-game scheduler, better guild bank gui, raid wide buffs [early EQ only had single target...for 72+ people!]). There's really no reason anymore for members to stay in a guild with a dictator. My guild was just previously run by one of these guys who couldn't understand this, and now we all just kicked him out and took over, cause it's so damn easy and painless anybody can do it.

Nowhere did i suggest a GM must be a dictator or that the guild is meant to serve the gm. The guild exists to provide a common group of players a common goal with some semblance of structure and leadership.

A GM can lead however he likes, but if he has no idea what the guild's goals will be, then he is a terrible leader and policy maker. Regardless of how you run things, you need a plan, you need goals, or you need to get out of the gm position.

My point was simply: problems can be averted far ahead of time by laying out what the guild's goals are. Nobody but the GM can do this. Regardles of how long someone has been in the guild, or how new someone is, if they aren't interested in the same things as the GM, then need to leave the guild or the gm should pass the title to someone who can agree with and meet those goals. I've been assuming the wishes of the current members mirror that of the new gm in question. If that is a false assumption then he shouldn't have the title and should probably seek a new guild himself.

nethervoid
01-29-2010, 08:20 AM
The GM must first decide the atmosphere, goals, and overall nature of the guild. You can't go out there with 5 friends and say "hey, we raid on monday and we use dkp, join my guild!" That isn't a good way to start a guild.

The GM decides beforehand: is the guild hardcore progression oriented? Is it a casual guild, pvp guild, raiding guild, friendly guild, hard-ass guild, family guild? What kind of people do you want in the guild? Older players who are more mature? Anyone who wants in? Younger players? Couples?

There are a ton of questions to ask yourself as a GM before you ever think of scheduling a raid. While most people assume that this only applies to those who are up-starts with their own guild, it matters a lot to those who take over a guild in trouble aswell. If you don't have a plan other than "we're just goin to keep raiding on tuesdays." Then chances are you will fall into a rut at the next cross-roads.

Players need to know they aren't being lead by completely arbitrary orders from an egomaniac (some exceptions). They need to know coming into the guild what it is all about. The GM decides what the guild is about. Not the raiders, not the social members, not the officers, but the GM. There are times when officers are great help in formulating these things, but by in large the GM will be taking the brunt of responsibility, time, and effort that comes with his/her title.

Read any GM'ing guilde out there worth it's salt and you will find HIGH on the list of things to do (if not always #1) is something like "ask yourself what you want to get out of this guild and write these ideas down."

Rather than debate in circles, I'm just going to requote this and say this is incorrect for the reformation of a pre-existing guild. All the things you mention here are already decided upon. The guild already has a goal. Already is working on those goals. The only thing that must happen is: new common communication infrastructure must be erected, retuning of policy (members all discuss previous policies and what they'd like to see change - not just whatever the GM wants to change), and a re-selection of leadership.

Guild reformation is quite a simple process. Integral to success is the open communication between all reformation members as to what went wrong, and what should be changed to correct the situation for the new endeavor. The new GM is only 1 voice in a sea of voices at that point. If the GM wants something a certain way, they must present their proposal and list the merits behind it; not just say 'I'm the GM, so I make the rules. You don't like it, there's the door!'.

Proletaria
01-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Rather than debate in circles, I'm just going to requote this and say this is incorrect for the reformation of a pre-existing guild. All the things you mention here are already decided upon. The guild already has a goal. Already is working on those goals. The only thing that must happen is: new common communication infrastructure must be erected, retuning of policy (members all discuss previous policies and what they'd like to see change - not just whatever the GM wants to change), and a re-selection of leadership.

Guild reformation is quite a simple process. Integral to success is the open communication between all reformation members as to what went wrong, and what should be changed to correct the situation for the new endeavor. The new GM is only 1 voice in a sea of voices at that point. If the GM wants something a certain way, they must present their proposal and list the merits behind it; not just say 'I'm the GM, so I make the rules. You don't like it, there's the door!'.

Rather than disputing what has probably worked for you, i'll caveat that this is merely my experience and the experience of a hand-full of other successful GMs. Take it with a grain of slat and use your own better judgment.