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Galandris
01-26-2010, 10:29 AM
Hello Internets,

I am currently leading a group of 10 through the ICC and I have been confounded by blood princes fight. Our current raid composition is thus:

Prot Paladin
Boomkin
Fury Warrior
Blood DK
Frost DK
Rogue
Elem Shaman
Tree Druid
Disc Priest
Holy Paladin

We have our Prot pally tanking both melee bosses and have the crit chicken as the ranged tank. After seeing the fight a couple times and wiping through it we have the mechanics of the fight down and everyone seems to be doing their jobs. However, whenever Keleseth becomes empowered, it is impossible to keep the boomkin from dying, he has had 3 or 4 nuclei on him and still been one shot. Either I don't understand the mechanics of the nuclei or something else is happening. As I understand it, for each nuclei attached to the ranged tank he receives 35% less shadow damage incoming, so when he has 3 nuclei on him he is effective immune from the shadow lance(reduces damage by 105%). So how is he taking such huge spikes in damage?

No other part of the fight is an issue for us...our prot tank is not dying, the dps is beyond sufficient and isn't dying and the healers are doing their part. We have tried using cooldowns, but we don't have enough to last the entire time that keleseth is empowered. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

PS. For this upcoming week, the crit chicken will be getting some pvp gear socketed with stam in order to increase the health pool. Also, to give a bit more information, the resto druids other spec is tank and the so is the fury warrior, both are as geared as the prot pally, and the prot pallies off spec is ret. The priest could go holy if necessary, but we found her more effective as disc.

Daydream
01-26-2010, 10:56 AM
Few things could be happening to your boomkin. The first thing to be sure of is that he is not in melee range if he is the boss will defiantly one shot him and anyone else who has aggro in melee range. The other issue could be his healing with the Nuclei he might be taking less damage from the Empowered Shadow Lance but every Nuclei is inflicting constant periodic damage to him as well. What you might want to try is have one healer constantly on him, because even with lock tank with 30k HP I was forced to spam heal him through empowered phase.

Fayre
01-26-2010, 11:05 AM
The Nucleii damage reduction is multiplicative, not additive. So he's getting 35% x 35 % x 35 % from 3 orbs, not 105%. 3 orbs should be the minimum he should have at any given moment, not the maximum :) Ideally once he has some solid threat he needs to be hunting nucleii full time.

Increasing his health pool will help the healing, for sure, so thats a good idea.

It is also possible to have a 'regular' tank do the job, if you feel he's particularly 'squishy' - deathknights would probably be a good option, though I've done it as a warrior - you can hit the nucleii from the ground with no particular issue. The only difficulty with that strategy is that threat can be an issue.

Ocin
01-26-2010, 11:31 AM
Few things could be happening to your boomkin. The first thing to be sure of is that he is not in melee range if he is the boss will defiantly one shot him and anyone else who has aggro in melee range. The other issue could be his healing with the Nuclei he might be taking less damage from the Empowered Shadow Lance but every Nuclei is inflicting constant periodic damage to him as well. What you might want to try is have one healer constantly on him, because even with lock tank with 30k HP I was forced to spam heal him through empowered phase.

I thought Keleseth doesn't melee anymore?

Daydream
01-26-2010, 11:44 AM
If he doesn't anymore sorry was not aware of that we downed him on first night and we had the issue of our little gnome being crushed a few times when running for the Nuclei.

EDIT: Looked through Blue Tracker and found the Hotfix on him not meleeing anymore thanks for pointing that out :)

marklar
01-26-2010, 12:49 PM
we had some problems keeping our ranged tank up too, and the fight got much easier when we switched to a regular tank for the shadow prince. we put a prot pally on him, and i just tanked the other two.

this pretty much solved our survivability problem and let us focus on the mechanics of the fight, which just took a few more pulls to get down.

Juggtacular
01-26-2010, 04:22 PM
Our Lock tank had been having problems collecting the Nuc as well but the problem he was having was that they were dying very quickly if your are using a Boomkin to tank it, I would suggest not having them wear pvp gear, they are probably going to loose too much hit, if they have Stam trinkets that would work. Also to get the Nuc to come after them, have them use Rank 1 Moonfire, it will dot them but not do too much damage to them. Hopefully that helps.

felhoof
01-26-2010, 05:07 PM
I don't see why you need a ranged tank; you have two tanks, right? Just have one tank tank the two melee guys and the other tank the ranged. Preferably a DK or paladin, but really it's not hard no matter what you do.

m the Failadin
01-26-2010, 11:08 PM
My guild was having the same problem. I have heard of guilds using actual tanks to do it, but I dont know the details of that strategy. My guild has used the ranged-tank method and our first few attempts we had problems with our warlock living through the empowerment. What we did to fix this was (and this strategy may not be optimal in 10 man unless you have amazing dps) but we had our lock picking up all the dark nucleii on the left side of the room, and a mage would run around the other half of the room using a fast casting, low damage spell (frost lance or something maybe?) and picking up 2-4 at a time them blinking back to our warlock. The goal was to have a minimum of 5 nucleii on the warlock at all times. I believe at times he said he even had 6 and was able to be kept alive with HoTs.

Dragaan
01-27-2010, 12:36 AM
If you must use a ranged tank, using a hunter is a pretty good idea. At least for us, they seemed to have the easiest time doing it.

Liquidska
01-27-2010, 10:29 AM
We kinda went at this in a botched style in our 10 man... it worked perfectly but it took forever. We got these guys down on our 5th attempt or so. Using a lock tank (Pimped out in stam gear and rocking 35k), and then each of our regular tanks on the other two, spreading them out a fair bit. Our biggest problem we had was the beach balls touching down. Our hunter ran herself ragged trying to keep all 3 up but it just wasn't gonna happen. So we decided to have our elemental shaman go resto throw earth shield on a tank, then spend all his time helping the hunter. Our logic was that he wasn't really DPSing anyways so it was only a gain of an earth shield.

Which.... when it was all said and done, we ended up having 3 tanks, 3 healers, 2 people kiting balls and 2 dps. Our kill took maybe 10 minutes all in all, twice as long as the tank spot video shows but we were rock solid and could of kept the whole thing going for another 20 minutes if we had to....

Mostly I was bored for it though, my biggest problem was NOT accidentally picking up the dark nucclei. It only took one time for my swipe to pick up 2 off the warlock tank for me to realize how big of a deal it was. Threat was not even close to an issue for either tank, but a little bit for the warlock tank. We ended up Hand of Salving both DPS a few times. Although we were slow as hell, for a fight based around "chaos", it really wasn't that bad.

We will probably have one of our regular tanks go DPS next week and see if I can solo tank the 2 melee guys. Honestly they really didnt hit for that bad.

Bashal
01-27-2010, 10:33 AM
I don't see why you need a ranged tank;

People just fell into that assumption based on fights in BC where one was absolutely necessary, often a mage to spellsteal a buff which aided in ranged tanking. Gimmick fights ftl. :P

Use of the orbs to gain the buff--especially after hotfixing it so the boss doesn't melee--means any class/spec can do it. I've even heard of hunter pets doing it.

Galandris
01-27-2010, 04:43 PM
Thanks for the responses.

In the end having an actual tank on him worked the best. One tank on him(pally) and one tank on the other bosses(druid). We are thinking that switching to the warrior tank on the other 2 for a bit more mitigation, but I don't think that will be absolutely necessary.

Hamburglar
01-27-2010, 05:22 PM
We used a paladin tank on Keleseth and found it much easier to keep him up. I tanked the other 2 melee. The key is really picking up the dark nuclei ASAP. Any class can do it if they're good at it. Paladin tank is probably the best real tanking class because of the ranged pulls and overall survivability.

Kinch
01-28-2010, 01:10 AM
I did it as a warrior. Equip a thrown weapon, pop Keleseth a few times then go Nuclei hunting. When he's not empowered, feel free to run wherever you need to go. When he's empowered, stay in melee range to stay ahead on threat and grab nearby Nuclei if you need them.

Kaytie
01-29-2010, 06:53 AM
I managed on my moonkin no bother, but I usually had five or six Nuclei at any point. As said, Rank 1 Moonfire is good, as is Faerie Fire (no damage at all!) although that can be easily yoinked off you if someone's cleaving nearby.

Other trick is to make sure he uses Barkskin during the Empower. I also use it on the pull, although it's less crucial now the first Nucleus spawns so much faster.

Quinafoi
01-29-2010, 10:12 AM
The advantage a conventional tank will have over a non-conventional tank is higher effective health. Either can tank this particular mob successfully however if your healer gets knocked away from you a tank with 40,000 health doesn't last as long as a tank with 50,000 health without healing. That's the only real difference. The encounter is managable either way.

Njordus
01-31-2010, 06:10 AM
We just have 2 normal tanks here, no ranged tank. One tank tanks Keleseth, the other tanks valandar and taladram. easy peasy.

galoisann
02-01-2010, 01:26 PM
quick question for which i haven't seen an answer. are shadow bolts spell reflectable?

galoisann
02-01-2010, 01:31 PM
second question,
an arcane mage specced for 140 magic resistance with maybe one piece shadow gear, a 50 resist pot and shadow resist aura is sitting close to 400 shadow resistance. will this trivialize damage in the first 30 secs to make a viable shadow tank?(even given the comparatively small health pool)

Quinafoi
02-01-2010, 03:50 PM
quick question for which i haven't seen an answer. are shadow bolts spell reflectable?

No, Shadow Lance can not be reflected.


second question,
an arcane mage specced for 140 magic resistance with maybe one piece shadow gear, a 50 resist pot and shadow resist aura is sitting close to 400 shadow resistance. will this trivialize damage in the first 30 secs to make a viable shadow tank?(even given the comparatively small health pool)

First of all, the only pieces of gear at level 80 that have shadow resist are the upgraded forms of the tier 2 helms that drop off Onyxia. So one piece of resist gear doesn't really exist. While you could get several hundred resist, the mechanic is designed such that resists can never be enough. It could in theory help, but you can't eliminate the fundamental need of Dark Nuclei. The mechanics of resists cap out at 75%. 75% of 70,000 damage is 17,500 damage. The problem remains, if you're not running in effective health gear, you can't survive tanking this for very long, the second hit will likely kill you if no heals land on you fast enough. Also there is this fireball thing flying around the room that hits for a minimum of 10,000 fire damage, which could land at the same time as a Shadow Lance. If you don't have the health to survive that, you die. You still require proper technique for handling the Dark Nuclei. Also, you still have to gear for effective health. While you could experiment using a resist approach, it will likely be better to be hitting 40,000 health raid buffed so you can survive more than two hits. Fully raid buffed I tanked this in 25 man with about 41,600 health as a balance druid with 6% passive magic damage reduction and 2% magic damage reduction meta (lots of pvp gear with Solid Majestic Zircons, raid JC gave me a funny look when I handed her 12 Majestic Zircons for her to cut).

Rahzuul
02-02-2010, 08:32 PM
One thing that worked quite well for us:

took keleseth in my unholy dps spec wearing my tank gear for extra hp. get some agro on keleseth while the nuclei start to spawn, then just toss both diseases on the orb and pest them back to keleseth. agro was no problem at all, and when empowered, easy enough to pop IBF or AMS to soak up some of the damage. doing it this way, i'd have anywhere from 4-7 orbs on me at all times. got the spell damage achievement too from him

FeawenShadows
02-06-2010, 12:32 PM
I use a Survial Hunter and our warrior tank has Val/Tald. Its an easy kill.

saleitem
02-08-2010, 12:20 PM
i tank him for our raids 10/25 both as a arcane mage. Its so much easier then a lock doing it i can blink all over and grab the shadow orbs its to easy. I have a pali healing me full time. The only difference is you need to grab as many shadow orbs as you can ... i usually keep around 5-6 on me... when empowered i get hit for 9-14k but the pali has no issues keeping me up. I used 4 pieces of pvp gear with stam gems to get my hit points up to 32k... also i use a ffb spec for threat. I can usually get up to around 300-400k threat before he gets his first empowerement. check it out it isnt to hard.

saleitem
trollbane

Shadyz
02-09-2010, 03:46 PM
I tank Keleseth for our 10/25 raids as an spriest. I run about 25k - 26k health raid buffed with a druid healer on me. Once we got the mechanics down and convinced people to control their AOE damage (which effects the nuclei aggro) we haven't had too many problems downing them. I try to maintain, at a minimum, 4-5 nuclei on me at all times (sometimes more). The reason is, I don't want to sit at 3 nuclei and have one die on me (or get pulled off me) once Keleseth gets empowered. With 4-5 nuclei on me, I get hit for 12K - 13K damage from the empowered shadow bolts. The damage from the nuclei is minimal, about 800 per tick. (I typically pick up the nuclei with SW:P so if someone hits it the next tick of the DoT will bring it back to me)