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Mačl
01-21-2010, 02:11 AM
Hi!

I've come here to vent.

I'm in a small 10 man rather casual raid. We've downed Anub on 10 man heroic just before ICC came out and never did the hard modes of Ulduar since we mostly skipped it. Well, ok, we repeatedly did Heartbreaker because this is good fun and not a hassle to reach.
Our raid pool is rather small, we raid only on sunday afternoon and since we are very casual in many cases RL WILL hinder people to attend. So we usually had to fill up our raids with friend's alts and in some cases from trade.
Before Christmas I was on a two week business trip and during the two weeks around Christmas most of our raid members were otherwise occupied.

Since our raid organization was rather anarchic(whoever felt like it would organize the raid, fill up the corners) we sometimes had 1hr waiting time before we even entered the instance. Which of course was annoying. So one person had to step up. Usually it would have been me but I was not around. Up to now our fledgeling RL had done a good job(some organizational problems but we all learn). Over Christmas he recruited a Paladin healer. We have 3 fulltime healers and 2 offspec healers in our pool. One of the fulltime healers was another paladin who simply was not available during the Christmas holidays.

Christmas is over and suddenly we find ourselves with two Paladins healers, a Resto Schaman and me(Disc Priest with Holy offspec). Coming to think of it, we have silently lost a rather brilliant Resto druid in my absence...
So there was some discussion over Vent how to deal with it. As usual nobody really spoke up. The solution was the worst of solutions: the paladins would take turns.

Last weekend I raided for the first time with the new guy. And Oh boy! did he piss me off. He was of the "I'm healing the tanks what do you guys do?" kind.
His "Why do you have so much overheal and yet go OOM twice in a fight?" remark after we did Saurfang WITH 0 MARKS on the raid really topped the bill. I plan my Mana CD usage meticulously since I have to have anybody bubbled which in the best case would be 100% overheal. All out mark prevention Disc style.
"Don't worry about the tanks, I've got them covered.". Definitely not a team healer. He turned the whole thing into a one man healing show.
"Can I rely on you healing the people with the spores?" Dagnabbit!
"Slime sickness on XY! Heal him!" DIAF!
"I've gotta run! Cover the tanks!" I see it! It's shouted at me by BigWigs and it's plain to see on Grid. In fact you already had a shield and a Penance on you before you even spoke up!
"Mačl, what are you healing?" "As usual I bubble and emergency heal wherever there is a situation. Including PIed group heal spam when I'm running scared." "That's not what Recount tells me."
For Festergut I usually go holy. I did and I was not 50% over his healing done. I was 100% over his healing done. I know that our roles differ substantially in this fight, but 50% of my effective healing done was on the tanks. Including three Guardian Angels during tank transitions. And a Divine Hymn which brought a 10 man raid from near extinction to looting a dead boss after the last inhale.
"Mačl, your overheal is improving. You have less than you had on Saurfang."
It is very easy to shout orders when 90% of your effective healing is split between the tanks.

Afterwards I was fuming. During the raids as a policy I never speak up in Vent when I'm personally annoyed. So I took up the issue with my RL after the run. He didn't see the issue. In fact he liked how the new guy "organized" the healers. Being a hunter he didn't understand that the old healing team didn't need organizing since we all had our fixed roles with me silently healing where I saw an issue. The new guy breaks that.
"Levitate me!" I do. Whisper "Sitting while levitated is cool."
It's not like the new guy wants to somehow fit in and doesn't understand the healing team which usually causes a new raid member to piss of the old members. It is his personality. And I will have none of that.

My roomie who is also in that raid as a very experienced Fury warrior(Twin Blades of Azzinoth three months before WotLK experienced. Fifth Thunderfury of the server experienced. His warrior is his main since classic and he has filled any role in any raid with his main since WoW had started) was also pissed off. He had been called out for dying on the Lady's adds(only one melee DPS). Magic DPS hadn't picked up their mobs fast enough which ultimately killed him.
He had been told where to run with his spore after he had already arrived there.
He had received condescending praise after we killed the Lady(had two wipes on her; the only non-progress wipes that day; one-shot Festergut and that was our second kill)
After the raid he had independently told the RL it's either the new guy or him. I didn't know that at the time I took my issue with the new guy to the RL.

Yesterday in my absence my roomie raised a major stink. It turns out that the old paladin(who didn't like being benched for every other raid, oh surprise), my roomie who doesn't like being bossed around and me who does know that healing is not a one-man-show are the only ones in the raid who have an issue with the new guy. The situation isn't helped by us three being of the same guild. My roomie has been accused that the only reason him&me don't like the new guy is that he is competing with a raid spot with our paladin. While this is also true they simply don't get that we don't like being bossed around.

I'm wondering if I should even try to resolve the situation or simply walk out.

Usually I wouldn't hesitate. But I was in the raid since day one. My recruitment went like this: they organized a Maly run in trade channel. Only 3 core members and the rest was pugged. It was a 3 hour wipe fest and everybody got earmarked who stuck with it to the end. Then we went to Ulduar and killed anything we could manage with our 3hrs a week raiding schedule. We downed Anub'arak 10/heroic in ToC/10 gear. Sadly this was during my business trip. So I wasn't there. All in all this has Arthas potential.

I'd hate to break this apart.

Shadowsil
01-21-2010, 04:38 AM
Unfortunately, being heard and seen is the way to be thought of as productive - both in RL and WOW. I completely understand why you're upset, I would be, too. Regardless, if you turn your back on the raid group, you'll be labeled as "the guy who didn't like competition", or worse "the guy who started breakup of the raid". Remember, you've been in the raid group because all of the folks play well, and (obviously), you all match well and work as a team. So I'd say it's worth sticking with the raid group and trying to make your RL understand it's the new pally who causes problems.

I'd pull the "teamwork" stunt on him. You know, "he's not a team player", "he places himself above the good of the group", etc. From what you've explained sofar, it's true.. but you need to "sell the idea" to your RL.

Mačl
01-21-2010, 05:15 AM
I had the gut feeling that that's what I was gonna do.
The trouble is that the other paladin has already walked out and our guild is planning on building a new raid. My original plans where to tank our raid and stick to healing in my original raid.
But the little backing I got was not very encouraging.
I will see what this evening brings.
Unfortunately we are not using World of Logs and even if it had been of any use my Recount stats of that evening are long gone.

Shadowsil
01-21-2010, 05:31 AM
Forget about backing your statements with logs, recount or any real data. That only makes things more complicated. I know you've got a good intent there of proving that the new pally isn't good for the raid.. but solid facts are the least interesting thing in this situation. Providing them is a frequent mistake of good players at this point, as it's not about facts but about how a person appears to the RL's eyes. That's where you'd have to strike.

As usual, I'll take inspiration from my all-time favorite series, Yes Minister, in which Sir Humphrey Appleby explains a devious way of getting rid of someone. First, you have to become their most devoted supporter and back him up. After all, if you're going to stab him in his back, you have to get behind him first. Next, praise his good qualities so much that they'll become drawbacks.

For example: "He's a great leader and capable of organizing the players. Actually I've noticed that he even had time to asses the DPS and tanks' actions, but he was too busy with healers to organize tanks as well. Nevertheless, once he gets the heals in line, I'm sure he'll do a great work with tanks and DPS's, too..."

That would sow a seed of that bad feeling with your RL.. as in "is the guy after the raid leadership, too?" and he'd start watching him closely. Paranoia is a beautiful thing - it lets people see things that are really not there. My guess is it would only take three to five raids before your RL would begin to feel threatened.

Oh yes I know, it's a nasty thing to do.. but if it's for the good of the raid. :)

Anyway since you've already decided to build a new raid, you may want to get in touch with some people from the old raid and invite them over. That's probably the least dirty way of removing yourself from that situation.

Mačl
01-21-2010, 06:16 AM
Heh. Like Antonius' speach in Julius Ceasar. I know that game. I play it frequently in real life.

Nah, this has to be honest, to the face and not underhanded. I play WoW for fun.

I have to blow my own trumpet and screw over business rivals and naysayers in an underhanded way in real life. That's what I'm taking a break from in WoW.

Shadowsil
01-21-2010, 06:43 AM
Heh. Like Antonius' speach in Julius Ceasar. I know that game. I play it frequently in real life.

Nah, this has to be honest, to the face and not underhanded. I play WoW for fun.

I have to blow my own trumpet and screw over business rivals and naysayers in an underhanded way in real life. That's what I'm taking a break from in WoW.

Yeah :)

Understood.. and I wish you luck with it. There's not much I could advise except what I already have - if you think the raid is worth it, try to win the situation. If not, find or make another. Either way I trust you'll succeed. :)

nethervoid
01-21-2010, 11:54 AM
The way it works in my guild is new recruits must mesh well with the current members' personalities. 3 of ... 12 don't like the guy? Seems like the best bet is just to remove him. Probably a little late since you lost your other pally, unless he'll come back.

The problem here is the 'new guy' is not paying respect to the 'old guard'. It's the same in any 'pack' scenario. New members need to have respect before they're accepted into the pack. The pecking order says that new guys start at the bottom. Only over time and once the new guy is respected and trusted can he move up the social ranking structure of the pack.

Bashal
01-21-2010, 12:11 PM
The pecking order says that new guys start at the bottom.

...and yet, I can't tell you how many times we've gotten a recruit that wonders why he isn't instantly in all the raid groups. :P

At least they don't hang around long.

Proletaria
01-21-2010, 05:08 PM
If you felt the need to write that detailed a description of the events that transpired... you probably care enough about the guild and whoever is left in it to try and patch things up. Unless it is completely out of your hands (it rarely is), you can probably get things back on track in a matter of weeks.

Mačl
01-24-2010, 11:23 AM
Well, I did raid with them again. The new guy continues to be annoying. But at least he has learned how our healing team works. So yeah, while he continues to be a chatterbox I got him to shut up a couple of times.

Time to build a raid for my tank. I know a very good paladin who would love to join.

Why is everybody complaining about wipes? We wiped 5 times on Rotface which is progression when most of the raid still is in his iLvl232s with no room for slacking. 5 wipes! Why does everybody think you can roflstomp your way all over Arthas?

Proletaria
01-24-2010, 11:04 PM
Why is everybody complaining about wipes? We wiped 5 times on Rotface which is progression when most of the raid still is in his iLvl232s with no room for slacking. 5 wipes! Why does everybody think you can roflstomp your way all over Arthas?

It might sound cliche, but most raiders these days don't know or care about what progression used to be. WOTLK has set up some very high expectations for new raiders, and while it can be good to draw in hesitant players, it can also shatter their hopes when they realize raiding isn't about 1-2shotting things at the higher end of content. I for one don't miss 9-hour stints on Kael'thas or Archimond that got us a few percent lower each week, but the other extreme we see now (1-shotting new content on the first night, or getting 10 attempts and seeing a 10% wipe on day1) isn't really interesting either. Perhaps i'm jaded from years of raiding in one form or another, but I let any of my guild's new recruits know: we raid to clear content and not expect it to flop over and toss loot after 30 mins. If that isn't fun to them, they have to find a new place to raid.

Make your expectations well known to your members and you shouldn't have many problems further down the road.