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Ciderhelm
01-20-2010, 03:36 PM
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Lakshata
01-20-2010, 03:49 PM
Great screenshot again, you seem lucky with these. My guild doesn't really use a loot system, we just do /roll on loot. If someone is winning to much, or they're being carried just to see it though, we tend to give it to the person that actually will use it.

Lyhyt
01-20-2010, 04:06 PM
But you did have time to put that last thing in! But it was acutally pretty hard to paus so I could actually see it. Often the video ended so it just restarted..

veneretio
01-20-2010, 04:49 PM
If someone is winning to much, or they're being carried just to see it though, we tend to give it to the person that actually will use it.
This part sounds like it will inevitably cause issues someday.

Lakshata
01-20-2010, 05:09 PM
This part sounds like it will inevitably cause issues someday.
Well if someones winning 3 items in a row, it makes sense. As for the people being carried, I personally wouldn't care to see them go, they're usually friends of the GM or something.

Bodasafa
01-20-2010, 09:51 PM
Just wondering about the "Out of Time" issue.

I'm sure no one would mind if these videos were a bit longer. Or is it a youtube.com restriction and if so couldn't you just record all you wanted to say and split it into 2 videos?

Great job again Lore.

Djtk
01-20-2010, 11:08 PM
Video isn't playing for me. It just keeps loading.

Djtk
01-21-2010, 12:11 AM
You usually only have 10 minutes for a video.

Bigcritz
01-21-2010, 06:21 AM
Great job on explaining the advantages and disadvantages of the loot systems. My guild chooses to use Loot Council, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this type of loot system. Ever since i raided in BC I've only ever seen DKP and suicide kings and with the introduction of wrath I've seen guilds use the roll system, but loot council was something foreign to me and i would like to get an outside perspective on its advantages and disadvantages.

Belletripsy
01-21-2010, 08:38 AM
I don't know if other use a scaling dkp system, but this is what I created to use for our guild and have received great feedbank, our guys love it.

We were already using a static dkp gain system, ( 2 dkp per boss kill, 1 dkp of being on time, 3 for raid finishing for the night, etc), and a static dkp spend system ex. 20 dkp per weapon, 15 dkp per item, etc) but as you guessed certain people were getting dkp bloat, and newer people were even more punished because we allowed dkp debit also.

If you have someone at 250 dkp and someone else at -35 dkp, then the motivation for the person in debit is next to nill to keep raiding.

I hated this and I made one simple change to fix it. Every item is now 10% dkp per item.

It works like a charm. The more dkp you have the more an item costs, and it allows new people to actually build dkp while still spending.

Here is an example of two players on different spectrums of the dkp list (at the start of the raid they have a 217 dkp range between them)

Top Dog player with 250 dkp loots an item and spends 10% dkp (25), he now has 225.
Noobcakes player with 33 dkp loots an item and spends 10% dkp (3 rounded down), he now has 30 dkp.

Assume that 15 dkp is earned per raid for boss kills, raid attendance, etc...

Top Dog player now has 240 dkp (225 + 15 earned)
Noobcakes player now has 45 dkp (30 + 15 earned)

They finished the raid with a range of 195, so Noodcakes has made some ground up and got loot.

The reason I love this system is that it still rewards people who have been there the longest, but it doesn't hurt new players and they can actually close the gap with most dkp sytems don't allow.

It's also very simple to upkeep.

edit: If your curious, we make off-spec and side grade items 2% dkp. we always want people spending dkp, because we want our new people to climb less of a moutain.

We have been running this system for ICC and people really dig it.

Eblan
01-21-2010, 09:22 AM
Just wondering about the "Out of Time" issue.

I'm sure no one would mind if these videos were a bit longer. Or is it a youtube.com restriction and if so couldn't you just record all you wanted to say and split it into 2 videos?

Great job again Lore.

Youtube has a restriction of 10 minutes-ish length videos for normal accounts. You used to be able to upgrade your account to a director account to extend the length, but I don't see that option anymore. =(

Knighterrant81
01-21-2010, 11:21 AM
I think the most important thing when considering "fairness" is to have your priorities straight at the outset.

Remember, raiding is about people, first and foremost. Without people, you don't get any bosses killed, and you don't get any purples. With that in mind:

- Whatever your system, make sure its clear before the first pull. If someone doesn't like it, fine, they can leave, no hard feelings because you were up front about your loot system.

- Encourage people. Show them how your loot system works, and if they seem discouraged by their place (say they just got recruited and have no DKP) in the system, help show them how others got to where they are now and how they can ensure they'll get a shot at loot eventually.

I've been in DKP guilds before, but I particularly like the system in my current guild. Our guild gives DKP for all the normal reasons, but it also gives DKP for players who sit out when we have too many people. I think this is really important for maintaining attendance and for allowing officers to freely sub people in and out as needed. Also, we make an effort to help gear up non-Raid Team members by running old content (normal TOC 25) in this case. We use that to gear up alts as well. We are currently working on finding the loot system that works best for that. This week, we allowed for free rolls, one win per player. However, Raid Team mains were allowed to call for one item (within reason, you couldn't call out 5 items because pretty soon the whole instance would be called on and our non-RT members would probably leave). This ended up to be Death's Verdict, Solace of the Defeated, and other trinkets.

It seemed to work well enough, although once *everyone* has gear from that run it might not work as well.

And DV never drops for us anyway. I think I've seen it once in the last 3 months?

Eternity
01-21-2010, 03:39 PM
Nice to see this difficult topic covered here also.
I am mainly interested in the opinion(s) about EPGP-system, which is basically a remote form of DKP. The big advantage, imho, is the fact that it compares how much effort you've put into raiding with the amount of gear you already got and calculates your priority out of those two numbers. Highest priority that rolls on an item gets it. Fortunatly our guild is mature enough to realize that some items should go to our meatshields or healers, hence they don't mind passing.

elunesbuddy
01-21-2010, 05:03 PM
I don't know if other use a scaling dkp system, but this is what I created to use for our guild and have received great feedbank, our guys love it.

We were already using a static dkp gain system, ( 2 dkp per boss kill, 1 dkp of being on time, 3 for raid finishing for the night, etc), and a static dkp spend system ex. 20 dkp per weapon, 15 dkp per item, etc) but as you guessed certain people were getting dkp bloat, and newer people were even more punished because we allowed dkp debit also.

If you have someone at 250 dkp and someone else at -35 dkp, then the motivation for the person in debit is next to nill to keep raiding.

I hated this and I made one simple change to fix it. Every item is now 10% dkp per item.

It works like a charm. The more dkp you have the more an item costs, and it allows new people to actually build dkp while still spending.

Here is an example of two players on different spectrums of the dkp list (at the start of the raid they have a 217 dkp range between them)

Top Dog player with 250 dkp loots an item and spends 10% dkp (25), he now has 225.
Noobcakes player with 33 dkp loots an item and spends 10% dkp (3 rounded down), he now has 30 dkp.

Assume that 15 dkp is earned per raid for boss kills, raid attendance, etc...

Top Dog player now has 240 dkp (225 + 15 earned)
Noobcakes player now has 45 dkp (30 + 15 earned)

They finished the raid with a range of 195, so Noodcakes has made some ground up and got loot.

The reason I love this system is that it still rewards people who have been there the longest, but it doesn't hurt new players and they can actually close the gap with most dkp sytems don't allow.

It's also very simple to upkeep.

edit: If your curious, we make off-spec and side grade items 2% dkp. we always want people spending dkp, because we want our new people to climb less of a moutain.

We have been running this system for ICC and people really dig it.

or you could have done a Zero-Sum DKP.
Points for being on time and being there at the raid don't make much sense and tend to screw your DKP count. You can't really keep a zero-sum with that.

Plus you don't really need those as if people are not showing up you can just recruit someone else. But I guess that depends on the server and your recruiting capabilities.

senataur
01-21-2010, 05:22 PM
Here's a question for you all...

How would you combat dkp hoarding?

I.E. How to you stop people from letting less than ideally itemized gear go to shard, that are upgrades for them, because they are saving their dkp to get first shot at the 'best in slot' or perfectly itemized piece that may or may not drop in the near future.

Which often in the above case numerous other people have got their eye on too.
The greater benefit to the guild is if those pieces get used by people as legitimate upgrades.
However those people who take the loot, and the dkp hit, then see the ideal piece drop and go to someone else, may see their relative performance fall behind.

Kazeyonoma
01-21-2010, 05:47 PM
My guild uses EPGP with decay.

We have minimum EP required to be over the "threshold" anyone who's below threshold, even if your PR is higher, has lower priority than anyone who is above threshold. GP has a minimum of 50 GP.

Everytime you show up to raid, you gain EP per hour, and possibly bonus EP on first kills., Everytime you take an item, you get "charged" GP (added to your GP total). Your Priority Rating (PR) is your EP/GP. This gives you some level of attendance/effort versus loot whoring. Everynight after a raid, we decay both ep and gp by 10%, this prevents EP hoarding (DKP basically), and at the same time, slowly brings peoples GP back down to 50.

ex)
threshold is at 150, i have 250 ep, and i have 62 gp, my PR is 250/62 = 4.03,
the other tank has 280 ep, but has 87gp, his PR is 280/87 = 3.22

A tanking ring drops, and it costs 80 gp, we both /rand to show that we want the item (the result of the rand is inconsequential, it just lets us know who wants the item),
we see that both he and I want it, so I win because my PR is higher.

I get "charged" 60 gp for it, so now i have 250 ep, but 122 GP, so my new PR now = 2.05. Basically the next tanking item, should be his. At the end of the night, we award the EP (10 per hour, for 3 hours of raiding, so 30 ep), so I end up with 280 ep, and 122 gp, and other tank is at 310 EP and 87 GP. We decay 10% EP/GP

Starting the next raid time, i'll have 252 EP, 110 GP, and thus 2.29 PR
the other tank will have 279 EP, 78 GP, and thus 3.57 PR.

And thus the process repeats. As long as you set your Decay, AND your EP gain, at the right levels, you'll reach a ceiling of EP that someone can obtain even if they show up 100% to raids, because their EP will get so high, 10% decay will >= their daily gain of EP award. And GP because it is divided into EP, will often, even if someone is at the max EP, after taking an item or 2, will drop their PR so low, that loot will be distributed elsewhere. Likewise, to prevent "shards", you very quickly see that taking 1 item per week or so, allows your GP to decay almost back down to the minimum 50 again after 1-2 weeks of raiding. That means if you sit there at 50 the whole time trying to "hoard your PR", you're essentially wasting your low GP to EP ratio, cuz if 2 weeks go by, you probably could've nabbed an item, and be back at a HIGH EP versus Low GP rating anyways.

Petninja
01-21-2010, 10:22 PM
<3 Moose Marmot at the start.

Killrogg
01-21-2010, 10:42 PM
yea im having the same problem, vid just keeps loading wont play for me

sakkdaddy
01-22-2010, 03:11 AM
I've used dkp with bidding, decay, caps, zero-sum, and all of them are greatly flawed systems that require massive upkeep. They all get very complex when addressing issues such as inflation, and shady bidding agreements. Going into WotLK we came up with a new system that is fairly easy to maintain, really great for progress, and also allows for very good offspec gearing without penalties.

1. Everyone makes a wishlist for each tier of content. 1 item per slot...basically a BiS list except 10man items, crafted items, and legendaries don't belong there.
2. When an item drops, people say 'wl' if it's on their wishlist, 'n' if it's a main spec upgrade but not on their wishlist, and 'o' if it's for an offspec. WL gets prio over N, which gets prio over O. We have a google spreadsheet that gets updated by officers when people receive wishlist items, and N/O items are not recorded here. (I do upload raids to a EQDKP site though just to keep a record and track attendance.)
3. Loot council: When multiple people have the same loot priority for an item, officers decide who gets the item. We consider their attendance, performance, and the quality of the upgrade for that person.

Loot gets distributed very quickly, as the wishlist part of the system narrows down people for the loot council to decide between. The spreadsheet tracks how many wishlist items people have received, so we can quickly and easily check who has gotten the most wishlist items. The only items that every take more than a couple of seconds to distribute are tier tokens and trinkets that often 8+ people want.

This system works very well for guilds that don't have attendance issues, and have knowledgeable and fair officers. I replace people who's attendance drops below 85% and they are stuck as standby until they get their attendance back up, and have no loot priority until they get attendance back up to acceptable levels. Because nobody wants to lose their raid spot, people show up to every raid on time.

A final benefit of the wishlist is that the best loot for certain classes goes to those classes. In a DKP system someone might buy an intermediate upgrade that they would upgrade again 4 weeks later. Using a wishlist, items are prioritized to people who get the most use out of them and will use them the longest. This gears out the entire raid group very quickly and efficiently.

The upkeep consists of changing the color of an item on a spreadsheet (to mark it as received) and updating the total # of items people have gotten when they get a wishlist item. Only BiS items that drop need to be recorded. With the normal/hard mode concept, people submit single wishlists that count for both normal and hard modes, and we color code items based on if they received the normal or hard mode version, and have running totals for both.

Here's our 3.3 wishlist for those who are interested:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tuwmGJKnvD7GZQJ9K8882xg

Purechaos
01-22-2010, 08:24 AM
My guild uses SK with a attendence Decay and a bonus also.

We normally just did SK the normal way and kept it fairly simple, over time we needed it to grow a little more, we have no desire to make a DKP system for as stated the upkeep is alot compared to other systems.

I would consider my guild a casual progression guild or semi-hardcore guild.

And this works great with us, we have our SK list and everyones on it, and with attendence its very simple, every time you sign up for a raid and show up on time you get a point, if you get 3 of these points in a row you move up a slot in the SK list or 5 in total, cant have one or the other its what ever comes first.

Nothing bad or good happens if you sign up and show up between our 7:50 to 8 still being on time, same for not signing up and showing up or signing tenative.

For signing up and not showing up your droped one.

Wev made it so it promotes people who make sure they have the time and show up and punish people with those who waist our time, its not like you cant take your name off the list.

This system is great and comparing it to the video it jumps the reward up, but puts a nudge in progression if you ask me, and its not so much on the gear the MT etc its on the lines is it promotes the same people showing up and gearing them, so it tends to gear your core faster.

In short every loot system has its ups and downs, its just a matter of what flaws are you willing to accept.

Also we do Loot council in 10 mans for our guilds rule of thumb is 10 man gears goal is to help 25 man.

Bodasafa
01-22-2010, 11:37 AM
Loot Council is probably the fairest system out there, however it is also the one with the highest risk for drama. Which is why people have trouble implementing it.

Bashal
01-22-2010, 11:45 AM
Loot Council is probably the fairest system out there, however it is also the one with the highest risk for drama. Which is why people have trouble implementing it.

When handled properly it works well...the onus is on the council to make a correct and fair decision, though.

It is also probably the system that is most susceptible to misuse, as it has the potential to be the least transparent in its methodology.

I know it can be used very successfully and to great effect, but one should also be mindful of its potential flaws as well.

Taio
01-23-2010, 04:00 AM
Loot Council is potentially the fairest system out there
Fixed :)
A perfect loot council is the best loot system.
A bad loot council is the worst loot system.

CrovaxDFS
01-26-2010, 10:24 PM
My guild The Dead Fish Society on Kel' Thuzad uses a custom DKP system that is based on Ratio.

LP (Loot Points) / RP (Raid Points) = your Ratio. Whomever, has the lowest ratio that is going for the item gets it.

Every Item you get increases your LP by 20.
All members start out with 20 LP

You gain RP by doing the following:
Guild First Boss Kill = 8 points
Guild 2nd Boss Kill = 6 points
Regular Boss Kills = 4 points
Boss Wipe = 2 points
15 minutes in raid = 1 point per 15 minutes.
Wait List = 1 point per 15 minutes.

Main Spec will always win over Off Spec.

We have limited the ICC tokens to one per raid, unless that person already has the Set Piece to be upgraded.

To date in our 5+ year history, we have only gkicked 1 person who was trying intially avoiding loot in effort to get a item they wanted. And that was back in Molten Core :)

We do use a customized Mod, to track the RP earned, so it is always using Live Data. But loot distribution is very quick. As you can see it rewards those who are in the raid even on progression fights where there is no guarantee that a new boss will die, and a small bonus for those who are waiting to be called into the raid. Frankly, I have yet to see a system that is simpler to know when your best chance for loot will be as well as being fair and quick to do. Though, I'm sure that I am biased.

Some of the benefits of our system, is allows hardcore members and more casual/or new members to be able to get loot relatively quickly.

They may not get something on their first or second run (depending on how many bosses are being killed), but their ratio will work to their advantage until they win and item and then it puts them back down compared to everybody else.
It also doesn't suffer the problem that some DKP systems have, where if you don't kill any bosses, then you don't gain any DKP or what have you.
It gives incentive for the hardcore members to continue to come to a raid that is already on farm status, because they continue to get their ratio lower, so when something that does drop they will usually be the first to pick it up.
We don't have to worry about Inflation or causing DKP to decay... this practice just seems stupid to me.
We don't have to worry about the potential drama of a Loot Council ... again, I can't believe people would be in any guild that did this.
We don't worry about potential drama with open or silent bidding.
The maintenance is extremely minimal, though we did have to customize a mod to be able to have the data be live and be able to update easily.

For Legendary Items, we (GMs and officers) pick the order in which those who will be elegible to get the item. They would still be charged LP for it. (heh, I guess this is a form of loot council.. but then again how many Legendary items do guilds normally make :))

We do have people do a roll, just so we know who wants the item... the nice thing is if you have pugs, you can still allow them to roll, and if they get the highest roll, they get the item, if not, then you use this system to determine who really gets it.


We reset the LP and RP numbers for each new expansion... being TBH, Woltk and soon Cata.

Herr Drache
01-27-2010, 08:11 AM
My guild The Dead Fish Society on Kel' Thuzad uses a custom DKP system that is based on Ratio.
LP (Loot Points) / RP (Raid Points) = your Ratio. Whomever, has the lowest ratio that is going for the item gets it.

Hi Crovax :) I never got to get back to you when you introduced it to "Surreal Nightmare" on "Alterac Mountains". Yes, it does work great, and I guess you know that you basically re-invented (or pre-invented) EP/GP, just the fraction is the other way around. I'm just mentioning this because the EPGP mods are plentiful and can be easily adjusted to your system.

Jermakis
01-27-2010, 03:38 PM
Did I miss an announcement or WHAT IS GOING ON!? I need my weekly marmot videos to watch!!!

CrovaxDFS
01-27-2010, 09:36 PM
Hey there, Herr Drache. Yeah, I didn't know you guys actually did switch to it. But as you know obviously, it is a great system. I am glad we were able to help at least in a little bit. :)