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View Full Version : What to raid next?



Dyvine
01-19-2010, 02:25 PM
Need some advice here. I am the raid leader for my guild. In charge of where we raid, which direction we head in as a guild, etc.

I am kinda stuck here and just need some input and analysis.
Right now we are clearing the first 4 bosses rather easily. We have put some attempts on Rotface and Festergut but quite simply put, do not have the DPS to do either one atm. We do however have the DPS to do ToGC but really have not put many attempts on stuff in there.

What I am wondering is, does my guild have the gear, or are my players just not performing well. I have a feeling that it is a combination of the 2 to some extent. I am currently at a point of breaking down each DPS class and trying to help them re-learn their class to push another 500-800dps out from everyone.

My plans are to spend more time in ToGC for more gear than to bang our heads on ICC Plaguewing wiping.

Here is a DPS log of Lord Jaraxxus as I think it provides some decient data on what kinda DPS we normally do.
World of Logs - Lord Jaraxxus (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5ngcl8mzum8vz64i/sum/damageDone/?s=936&e=1133)

My questions are:
Who really needs to re-learn their class?
Is ToGC the right direction or should we really focus more on ICC Plague?

Oh thanks in advance. I hope I get better responses than...dude ur guild sucks, just boot everyone and start over. I really don't need to hear those responses, TY.

Karhazn
01-19-2010, 02:50 PM
At this point I would suggest that you go to ICC plague and pound your heads against Festergut (the "gearcheck" as I like to see it) and see how you do. You mentioned that you only put in a few attempts on each boss, but you will want a bit more experience than that before calling it completely (I know when I went in there first and we didn't get Rotface past 80% it felt pretty abyssmal). After you get some work in there, then go back to the old content (such as ToGC) as they will help your raiders out in improving their skill a lot (especially on a fight like Anub'Arak HM, where it was pretty difficult).

Proletaria
01-19-2010, 10:49 PM
I'd say if you're slow going in ICC, spend some time farming toc and working on togc. There are some exellent items (some staying BiS well into ilvl 264 sets) to be had there for your dps.

Simply put, go where the gear is and keep a raid night open to really work on festergut or whatever else is your end-game.

AEIOU
01-20-2010, 11:55 AM
I am in the same boat as the OP. I am in a guild that rolls through ICC25 front 4 in about 90 minutes and then can't get close to downing either Rot or Festergut.

Now I am in a scenerio of either going back and doing ToGC25 which to be honest will not be that successful since we never get through our ToC25 Beast attemps without at least one person getting hit by Icehowl.

We could also just stop at Saurfang and then split the groups for some 10 man ICC. That way people can get badges in a solid guild run and side gear + learn the fights in their easier versions.

The problem is, I don't want to lose out on 25 man nights as we only have 2 anyway.


How hard do you push before demoralization kicks in, and it's actually bad for the group as a whole? If you don't try, you don't get better. If you try and epic fail/wipe over and over, people get discouraged and it could lead to worse problems.

When do you know you've hit the wall, and where do you go when that happens?

nethervoid
01-20-2010, 01:48 PM
Again this is pretty much the problem with 25m content. You can generally get through fights carrying some not-so-spectacular people, but then come up on a gear check and can't get through.

In our 10m exclusive guild, we had 1 or 2 individuals with this problem, and in 10m you really don't have any room for slackers (people who don't read up on their class - you know, do the work required) so one of our long time members that many people look up to just kinda took these two people under his wing and helped them work on their talents, rotations, and overall knowledge of their class. Now these people kick a ton of ass, and we killed Festergut on our 2nd attempt.

If you only have 2 nights a week, you really should just stay on ICC 25 plagueworks. People will still be getting gear from the first wing, and you just need to bang your head against the wall for a bit. People need to get a good helping of 'banging your head against a wall' for a bit, because there are dry spells like that in raid progression. Hell I remember back in EQ going weeks or even a couple months at a time working on ONE friggin' boss!

1. Pick out 1 or 2 willing members of your team who really know all/most of the classes and how to use the mechanics to really push them to their limits (hopefully this is your officers), and get these people to 'tutor' these poor performers. Do it all privately if you like. Our guild are all close buds, so we did some of it over vent in a raid and some on off nights. Once they're doing better, make sure you say something in vent like 'Wow so-and-so, your DPS is rockin' tonight!'. That will encourage them to do this research on their own in the future. I don't care what people say, everyone loves to hear a leader say 'good job, dude - I'm impressed', especially in front of the whole team.

2. Put your team to the test by being relentless on your main nights, hitting Plagueworks. If they do ANYTHING better on any given attempt, no matter how small, make sure you bring it up in vent. Helps with morale.

Also, sometimes you might be changing up the strat too much too often. We had this issue on Saurfang for like 2 weeks. Every attempt we were changing up who was doing what. Finally and officer and I talked after a raid and said 'Ok let's try such-and-such at least 3 times before we call it quits on it'. We then preceeded to 1 shot the boss with that strat the second time trying it. Not changing it up helped people get used to what their job was, allowing them to focus on ONE thing to do instead of 'learning' something new each attempt. If you have attempted a boss many times and decide to change the strat, small changes are better than large ones. Let people learn the new changes slowly, so they can build experience doing what is actually working.

You could do some work on ToGC, but our guild has decided it's a waste unless we've downed everything we can in ICC.

Proletaria
01-20-2010, 10:01 PM
"Gear" checks aren't really that much of a gear check anymore, with a few notable exceptions. Smart play by your raiders can overcome a lot of issues you may have with rotface and to a lesser extent festergut. That being said, you'd be foolish not to farm TOC, TOGC, and at least encourage 10mans to form of their own volition for better gear.

It may well be that only 1/2 or 1/3 of your raid has loot upgrades out of TOC25, but they're still out there, and very very easy to get. 25man content really isn't problematic. The first wing of ICC was just a gimmy, and that is causing disillusionment from a lot of casual guilds that got blocked at festergut.

Bottom line: go where the upgrades are. Get out there and raid any place people need gear from and then spend the last night of your raid week trying to progress in ICC.

Dyvine
01-21-2010, 12:11 PM
We have decided to work on ToGC as "that is where the gear is" for us. We currently shard about 50% of the gear in ToC25 and maybe 2-4 items are used for actual main specs for upgrades. Things like Death's Choice, (can u ever get enough of those for ur melee?), just are good enough to come back for.

Our raid week usually starts with 1 night of 2-3 10 mans, next night is either ToC/ToGC25 or ICC 25, followed by ToGC 25, ICC 25 progression night. On progression nights we allow about half of the night for Gbank repairs. We also run EPGP and award 15 pts/15 mins so people feel like they get a little bit from it.

Key things I have found out from raid leading is this:

1)Find where the mistakes are and constructively try to correct them. Don't just tell someone they suck, that gets u no where. Point out the mistake and then offer a couple ways to fix it. Followed by, I know you can do it...really makes a difference.

2) Complement people for good play, reguardless of how small it is. Really goes a long way at keeping moral high.

3) Make sure that the raid leadership is set on the shoulders of 1 person maybe 2 at very most. The buck stops here type of thing. We all know that at times working on new bosses people can point blame to alot of mistakes and some people actually try to take over the raid lead role...even though they may not realize it.

4) Try to end things on a high note. Recap the nights performance and highlight good pts. Talk about the bad things with officers or other leaders and how to possibly correct them.

Bottom line, if you keep moral high by complementing people it goes a long way when working on progression where u wipe over and over.

Proletaria
01-21-2010, 05:24 PM
Keep recruitment in high gear at all times.

Positive re-enforcement is great.

Constructive criticism is good.

Even the occasional "stop being bad," can work.

But nothing says "SHAPE UP," quite like having a few replacements ready to come in and (possibly) do better.