View Full Version : Saurfang and the enrage timer
01-18-2010, 12:19 PM
Would like some thoughts from the tankspot community. Our 10 man group has apparently hit the wall on Saurfang and for the life of me, I can't quite figure out why we are having so much difficulty. We've tried a bunch of strats mentioned here but inevitably, each time:
- We'd get a mark around 20-30% boss health. The person w/ the mark would eventually die (after about another 10% damage done) and therefore we have to do 105% damage to the boss to down him.
- We'd hit the enrage timer and the 9 of us remaining would wipe.
This was happening to us over and over again last night. Our raid make-up: Warrior and Pally tanks, Disc and holy priests healers, 6 DPS (2 melee and 4 ranged: hunter, lock, shaman, rogue, boomkin, and arms warrior). We're all ICC-ready geared (accordingly to wow-heroes) and the DPS ranges from just under 3K to just under 5k for the fight. Average DPS is probably around 3.8k or so.
We're able to one-shot the first 3 fights but wipe over and over again on this one. We've tried different strats to get more DPS on the boss. We've tried the DI/SS approach to avoid the extra 5% health heal (though I'm not sure about that in 10 man since the last bit of the fight can't be 1-healed and if one of our DPS gets the mark, we'd hit the enrage timer anyways).
I'm thinking that if we could avoid the mark until < 10% boss health, we probably could last until he's down, but is that the only way? Also, of course, if we could deal w/ the BP gains perfectly, we'd suffer no marks, but that seems like a pretty low margin for error effort for us.
What we've typically done is leave 3 DPS on the boss the entire time (the 2 melee of course and the lock for DOT benefit), having the other 3 deal w/ the adds-then-boss.
We're using all the strats to minimize the BP gained, but if it hits at 35% or at 25%, it still doesn't seem to matter. We're always needing to do 105% damage and left with 9 to do so. (B-rezzing the 10th is too risky for us because of the high likelihood of a re-death and needing to do 110% damage on the boss...)
01-18-2010, 12:28 PM
3.8K per DPS isn't sufficient.
In 10 man the theoretical absolute minimum DPS required to beat the Berserk timer is around 22500 raid DPS. That is assuming no heals at all. You need more DPS, bottom line. You either need to get better DPS, or refine your strategy to make the DPS you have do more DPS. Most raids which kill the boss will be around 30,000 raid DPS. Which assuming your tanks are doing a reasonable amount means all the remaining DPS will have to be above 4k average.
Allocate ALL of your DPS to killing the blood beasts. If you kill them faster, you never have to actually kite them, thus increasing the DPS done by the players which would be kiting. You should have your melee DPS stunlock and burn one of the adds while all of the ranged focuses on the other (assign targets ahead of time). The warrior tank can help out the melee by using Shockwave to stun their target every time at the start, just tank the boss with your character angled slightly to the side so you can shockwave that way (a 45 degree angle still puts the boss in front of your character giving you all your mitigation benefits such as block and parry).
01-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Without a WoL/WWS it would be difficult for me to pinpoint your exact fail point. Your DPS seems a bit low, but not enough to be hitting the enrage timer.
My guess is DBS is getting extra BP from somewhere. Either BBs hitting people, multiple hits on nova, shields not being properly executed on the raid, or sloppy tank swaps.
If all of these things are being performed perfectly, the only way to have a mark at 25%-35% is very low DPS.
Again, without a WoL/WWS or a video capture I can only give you a shotgun blast answer.
01-18-2010, 12:59 PM
>> shields not being properly executed on the raid
One basic question on this. Should the Disc priest just spam shields on all members of the raid making sure that we're all shielded 100% of time? Or is sufficient to just have him shield those affected by Boiled Blood (included all melee if one of the melee gets it).
To give you a better sense of our DPS, irrespective of marks, we get the 5 min enrage warning when he's at around 56% (shammy BLs at the start).
If our DPS is too low, how is it that we can 1-shot the first two bosses w/o any problems at all? Is Saurfang a DPS gear-check gate-keeper?
01-18-2010, 01:15 PM
a couple general suggestions that might help without seeing the details of your fight:
-put disc priest on raid heals, and yes, keep bubbles on everyone. refresh them as soon as they fall off. this give you a good chance of being able to use 2 bubbles on whoever gets the boiling blood (if they have a bubble with no WS debuff).
-keep frost traps and earthbinds down for every add phase. put your highest dps ranged on one add and the other 2 on the other add. shockwave them when they spawn; you should be able to hit both. if an add gets close to the ranged, taunt it back or have the boomkin knock it back.
-be sure your tanks are taunting very quickly after the other tanked is marked.
this fight is definitely more of a gear check than the first three, but we clear it weekly with an alt group having similar dps. we typically get 1 mark in the alt run and that player often dies, but it happens pretty late in the fight.
01-18-2010, 01:30 PM
This is my strat for shielding 10man... I've never had a mark on 10man:
(1) Pre-shield everyone EXCEPT the tanks.
(2) NEVER refresh a shield if its still up.
(3) As soon as a shield drops, refresh it.
(4) Shield tanks immediately after they get hit with Blood Boil.
Basically, this will maximize your ability to prevent BP. If done right, you will be able to "double shield" most Blood Boils, preventing all BP gain.
Again, you want to maximize the chance for a shielded raider being hit with Blood Boil while WS debuff is NOT up. That way you can re-shield immediately after it falls off half way through Blood Boil.
The exception is the tanks. Since they will be getting hit, you should only shield them while Blood Boil hits them to make sure you can negate as much of it as possible.
So, yes and no. You want shields up on all non-tanks 100% of the time, but you don't want to spam them as soon as WS falls off.
You should save BL for the soft enrage at 30% if at all possible.
01-18-2010, 02:12 PM
(4) Shield tanks immediately after they get hit with Blood Boil.
You mean "Rune of Blood" I think.
Anyway, back to the original poster however. DPS may not be the problem, however it is the problem here. It may not be that you don't have sufficient DPS but rather that you aren't optimizing the DPS you have. Like I suggested, don't kite. Modified your technique so you don't have to kite (set all DPS on the adds and kill them fast).
30,000 DPS at 100% activity = 40,000 DPS at 75% activity.
The fundamental concept of DPS in a raid is less DPS requires higher activity. In the case of the Deathbringer Saurfang encounter, you increase activity by eliminating the need to kite (kiting greatly reduces your effectiveness as a DPS).
01-18-2010, 03:40 PM
You mean "Rune of Blood" I think.
Nope, I mean Boiling Blood. Rune of Blood should be mitigated by proper tank switches. Boiling Blood is a DoT that gives 1 BP per tick. You want to maximize the number of Boiling Blood ticks absorbed, which means on a tank you should pop PW:S on them as soon as it is applied. DBS's Melee swings will chop through PW:S pretty fast, so pre casting is out of the question to maximize.
01-19-2010, 03:23 AM
Hmm, if you are letting the first person die anyway, a trick is to have a paladin use divine intervention on the first player to get the mark, it will make him immune to the damage, and he wont die and heal saurfang. But if you do this, have the paladin soulstoned or have a battle ress ready.
01-19-2010, 04:35 AM
- Under 3k dps sounds low and should probably be higher.
- The fact that you are getting your first mark as low as you are is good, that means you're managing adds etc well, the fight is designed so that you don't just ignore his Mark and burn through before he casts it (unless overgeared, exploiting encounter etc), so I would query why you can't keep one Mark victim alive - are your tanks taking too much damage and stressing your healers?
01-19-2010, 04:43 AM
I think Shorty might have hit the problem there. Why is the Mark victim dying?
01-19-2010, 11:51 AM
Thanks for all the feedback.
- To answer Kloon, the reason why I'm skeptical that DI/SS is a workable strat for 10 man (for our group at least) is that if it the mark falls on a healer, we can't use it and if it falls on one of our top DPS at say, 25%, it seems very doubtful that we'll be able to keep managing the adds and beat the enrage timer as well.
- I can't say for sure why the mark'ed victim is always dying. That's certainly something that we need to find out. I had been assuming that unless the mark falls later, it was just something that you had to deal with (105% boss health). I don't think the tanks are taking too much damage as we are both well-geared for the encounter (245+ in almost all slots), using armor pots, trinks, etc.
01-19-2010, 12:44 PM
In some of our most efficient 10-man kills, we have managed to get him down to the soft enrage (where he goes into a frenzy or w/e, not the raid-wipe enrage) before the first mark is even cast.
In our best run, which happened this week, he died just as he cast his first mark.
Our DPS isn't all that much higher, the duration of the encounters compared to our worst run and our best wasn't that different. But what did change the most was our coordination and efficiency. We were able to drastically reduce his Blood Power gain. The more you delay that, the easier the fight is.
There are already many good suggestions in this thread on how to reduce his BP gain. Those suggestions (if you don't already use them), and practice makes all the difference.
01-19-2010, 02:52 PM
No one should die in 10 man. If people are dying you're doing it wrong. The DI/SS tricks are nice and all, but they are meant for 25 man which you have to deal with more marks. Your healers should be able to keep up with one or two marks and keep the tanks healed.
If you're letting someone die in 10 man, you're doing it wrong. Your healers should be able to handle that. If you're not letting them die, then you need to tell your healers to wake up and do their job better. Honestly it isn't a very healing intensive encounter until there are marks going out.
01-19-2010, 02:57 PM
If people are dying to one mark in 10-man, you may be well served in examining the logs and see if healers are seriously tunnel-visioning the tanks. It may also be a good idea to call out right away when a mark is placed and assign a healer to them. Otherwise it's possible that everyone will play the, "The other guy has it." game and no one heals them at all.
It can be really easy for healers to do one thing through the whole encounter and then not adapt when something changes late in the fight.