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xoxo
01-15-2010, 02:25 PM
First off, I would like to clarify that I am not my guilds leader, officer, raid leader or anyone of importance.

Basically, the issue is that the guild I am a proud member of has more people that want to raid 25man ICC than raid spots allow for. On raid nights we have approx. 32-37 people online and still have a trickle of apps. coming in weekly.

I personally raided throughout TOC25 as a healer, But as ICC came out we figured that we had too many healers. We were, however, in great need of ranged DPS because we had way too many mele which damaged our progression in TOGC25.

A few mele and myself (healer) have had to sit as a result. It has even got to the point where a few people have left guild because of wanting to raid 25man. Personally I just decided to level up my mage to 80 and have been focusing hard on it the last couple of weeks.

I also found out that I was in hot water due to taking criticism poorly, something I strongly regret and wish to do anything I can to make amends.

Now I do not like seeing ppl leave the guild because they feel left out. The guild leaders also deep down want to get everyone involved, but how? is the problem.

Last night I pitched a couple of ideas to the guild leader (upon chatting with some fellow guild members).

a) Setting up a second guild, a "recruitment" guild that has its own 25man and can act as a proving ground for people like myself who have had to sit for whatever reason and want to make things better. A friend suggested this could be a guild to station our plethora of main guild alts.

b) Setting up a second 25man group in the current guild.

Upon brief discussion, It was determined that DKP would not be viable for either of these options IF implemented. We just don't realistically have the personnel for it.

c) I also discussed the option of a rotation system with a guild officer, to which he correctly pointed out that this can hinder progression which the guild takes very seriously. Could this still be a viable progression route? if so how?

I would like to know what the implications of each of these ideas would be, and which would be a good option for us personally in order to get everyone some 25man action. We already currently run three 10man groups with our 2 officers and 2 guild leaders taking care of the leadership.

I would like to reference the following two threads that I found useful, But would welcome further input on our guild situation in specific:

-http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f148/49176-rotating-raid-members-week-week-how.html
-http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f148/57162-over-recruitment-problem.html


-Thank you so much in advance.

Penlowe
01-15-2010, 06:04 PM
Quoting another poster somewhere around here "If you aren't in your servers top three guilds, progression doesn't matter". Which means, only the people in the first heat are racing each other, everyone else is competing against their own race clock.
That said I'll talk directly to your proposals.

a) Setting up a second guild, a "recruitment" guild that has its own 25man and can act as a proving ground for people like myself who have had to sit for whatever reason and want to make things better. A friend suggested this could be a guild to station our plethora of main guild alts.

This does not usually work out well, why not just recruit to the existing guild enough people for two runs? It doesn't eliminate the Team A & Team B issues, it actually aggravates them by separating people.


b) Setting up a second 25man group in the current guild.

Upon brief discussion, It was determined that DKP would not be viable for either of these options IF implemented. We just don't realistically have the personnel for it.

Sounds like they just don't like DKP. This is a very viable option, especially if you find the right loot system to support you.


c) I also discussed the option of a rotation system with a guild officer, to which he correctly pointed out that this can hinder progression which the guild takes very seriously. Could this still be a viable progression route? if so how?
See the above quote. It is quite viable, especially with attendance add-ons to do some of the work for you.
You didn't mention ten man runs. Does your guild do them? Is there a reason those sat from the 25 couldn't run a ten that night instead just to stay sharp and at least get marginal upgrades?

xoxo
01-15-2010, 07:00 PM
First off, the guild I am in is actually in the top 5 at least on our realm. So progression is definitely game.

With regards to the 10 mans, I guess you missed it in my previous post:

We already currently run three 10man groups with our 2 officers and 2 guild leaders taking care of the leadership.But to explain further, all three of the 10man groups are ran on Tuesday. On Wed,Thurs,Mon we do our 25man raids. The extras are litterally just sitting there on these days in case they get called to raid. I guess the 10mans are well and good, but the desire for a lot of ppl is getting a piece of 25man action.

Regarding the loot system. The main guild 25mans are currently using GRSS and dkpsystem.com, But I guess adding a second 25man group in the mix would maybe get a little messy? esp. since the guild leaders do not have the time to run two dkp websites etc.
The second group I guess would work with a simple /roll for loot?

Thank you very much for your input so far.

Penlowe
01-15-2010, 08:37 PM
First off, the guild I am in is actually in the top 5 at least on our realm. So progression is definitely game.
Fair enough, way too many people worry about 'progression' when really, well, it's much like two neighbors trying to out do one another with the Christmas lights when that dude on the corner has the music choreographed computer set up going. ;)

The view of where & what your guild is like is much clearer now. This may sound rough, but some natural attrition is likely going to occur. There is nothing you can do about that, it's a very normal cycle in serious raiding guilds that keep a tight roster. Guilds that operate like yours don't usually retain a lot of back up players, it is both a pro and a con at the same time. Pro as this means your regular raiders are reliable, con as the back ups don't see much play time. Having ten extra for a 25 man team is a lot, most in your position probably hover at 4 maybe 5.

Here is the trick question: when you joined the guild was it to be a raider? to be a back up? or was it left up in the air? THAT is the true root of the issue here.
If you were recruited to raid, and weren't getting slotted, what happened?
If you were recruited as back up, sit down and shut up, you're doing what you were recruited for.
If you weren't told anything specific, why did you join? (that falls under the 'read the small print before signing anything' lecture).

This could be (I'm not an officer in your guild so just take it on theory) that they just liked X's stats/ dirty jokes/ Fish Feasts better than yours even though you aren't a bad guy or a bad player. As a result they are hoping you'll get bored and go find a new guild without having to say "well, I don't want to date any more but we can still be friends, okay?".

xoxo
01-15-2010, 08:57 PM
As much as I hear and respect where you are coming from, I don't believe this topic should be about me personally that would be very selfish. It is more to do with the several standby members that I would also love to see raiding.

I was informed that my issue was that I had a poor time taking criticism, and that I am working to make amends on that particular issue. I'm not really the best person in the world, but this guild has been keeping me warm the past 2 years on wow as I have tackled several issues successfully, such as excessive talking/spamming in guild chat.
I believe there are a lot of people that have my back in my guild.

But to answer your question on recruitment terms.
The guild I am in is a multi gaming mmo clan, I have been rolling with them since about 2004, and since the tail end of Naxx on WoW. There was nothing said as far as raiding, becuase I was still new to the game, and still leveling at that time. Since then opportunities have been given such as the chance to raid every week almost on TOC25. Which I enjoyed very much.

The other people that are members (the other ~10 standby people) did indeed apply as raiders, But the guild states as always that raid spots are not guaranteed. The problem is that the leaders DO want everyone to be involved, and if it was possible I am 100% sure they would take the entire guild to ICC25 at the same time. Hence the reason I am using my plethora of free time (that the leaders don't have as much of) in order to investigate ways we can all feel part of the guilds progression.

Once again thank you for your input.

Proletaria
01-15-2010, 10:55 PM
Per the sub-guild and sub-raid ideas, I've had bad experiences with those myself. My BC guild created a psudonym guild that ran 25mans with the help of a few officers and some more casual friends. They ended up being more successful than we could have imagined and slowly but surely the intended player-farming guild became too good to cherry-pick from.

I guess we were too successful for our own good. We ended up crippling both guilds when we tried to break the ties. One officer opted to stay with the old guild, another wanted to lead the new guild, and many of the raiders who had alts in the new guild decided to main-switch.

When all was said and done, we had two weakened guilds that didn't survive into the next expansion. I certainly think it would have been easier for us to just recruit from other non-related guilds, but at the time we (like yourselves) had a great track record and a ton of free-floating members who were getting tired of running 10mans and waiting for a seat at the 25man table.

To make a long story short: if you can reliably field 25man raids in duplicalte then more power to you, but just realize that it takes around 60 players who are active raiders to accomplish this. If you're hovering closer to 40 or so, you're probably better off trimming the fat (so to speak) or just opening recruitment to fill in what you want for the second raiding team. Make no mistake, managing the guild becomes exponentially harder the more raids you're trying to operate.

Penlowe
01-16-2010, 07:22 AM
Notice this guy is in the same boat: too many 'extra' players http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f92/61672-puggable-raids-killing-our-progression.html

I wasn't saying that you were being selfish, I was saying that you were trying to enact a change that is not practical for a serious raiding guild. When I was on a 40 man raid team we had 5 extras, and we were a good deal more relaxed than the progress you appear to be seeking. 10 extra for a 25 man team is excessive. That's like bringing your snow skis on a beach trip 'just in case'.

The more casual type guilds do rotate everyone into the raids and manage loot systems that work well for the way they function. Yes, these do significantly hamper progress, but that isn't what those guilds are after.

Ferrari doesn't make 7 passenger mini vans.