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View Full Version : Puggable Raids Killing our Progression?



cael
01-15-2010, 12:55 PM
An interesting conversation popped up. Tues/thurs/sunday = raid nights. Tues we get up to petricide and 10-12 people had to sit. Is it fair or better for the guild to make them save their ID for the 10 attempts on 1 boss? Or is it better to not do petricide to let them pug the instance and get more badges/chance at gear?

Penlowe
01-15-2010, 04:52 PM
What is your guilds policy on raid ID's? If your guild doesn't have a written policy about raid ID's that is the root of the problem.

Proletaria
01-15-2010, 09:45 PM
No offense to your guild and how you run it, but 10-12 on the bench is pretty high in this day and age. I don't know how you could encourage that many people to sit week in and week out without a lot of coersion. Penlowe is ofcourse correct, there ought to be a public policy about that sort of thing. I would reccomend you reward those willing to be bench warmers somehow and give them the option to pug at the cost of said rewards.

orcstar
01-16-2010, 11:11 AM
An interesting conversation popped up. Tues/thurs/sunday = raid nights. Tues we get up to petricide and 10-12 people had to sit. Is it fair or better for the guild to make them save their ID for the 10 attempts on 1 boss? Or is it better to not do petricide to let them pug the instance and get more badges/chance at gear?Do you mean you got 35-37 people saved on 1 raid id? That is waaay to much imo.

nethervoid
01-18-2010, 08:17 AM
Well not directly aimed at your specific raid situation (because I agree that's a LOT of bench warming going on), I think it definitely plays a part in guild recruitment. Instead of people leaving their family 'not enough good players to raid' guild, they just stay in that guild and pug. Makes it a lot harder for raiding guilds to recruit enough players so as not to have to pug. At least that's my experience. The recruit pool is pretty thin. We can pug the 2-3 slots we still have open in a 10m no problem, but getting people to strait up join the guild is much harder. The potential recruits I've seen just keep trying to pug with us and stay in their 'family' guilds.

I hate that raids are puggable. I attribute most of it to the fact you don't need to raid to have raid gear from the previous raid tier to get into the top raid instance in the game. There's no gear progression anymore in the raid arena. It goes quest -> heroics -> cutting edge raid zone. That's the main reason there are so many friggin pugs. Really crappy game design.

BC was a bit better, because badge equipment only got you so far. Just by running some heroics you couldn't skip whole instances and start on say Black Temple. If you wanted tier loot you had to actually raid for it. Not anymore! Let's give it to everyone! ... Which kinda screws with raid dynamics.

Proletaria
01-18-2010, 12:24 PM
Meh, I have to disagree with "bad design" commentary. I've had several good raiders return from service over seas, a break for school, work, or any other reason and get back into the raid in relatively short order because of the heroic badge system. It cuts both ways really.

I'm certainly not jaded enough to long for the days when a slightly under-geared recruit who was otherwise very promising meant either telling them to gtfo or running attunment questlines with him/her and doing several old raids that we had no interest in anymore.

I do lament the fact that every normal mode encounter is by-design supposed to be pug content (though i'm not sure if this is the case yet in ICC) and the effect this has, universally, on recruitment for raiding guilds. However, i'm very satisfied with the challenges from hardmodes thus far, and I don't really care how many ilvls i am above the average pugger, so long as i get to raid with my guild each week.

nethervoid
01-18-2010, 03:03 PM
Actually you make a good point about hard modes being kind of 'raid progression' above what someone can just farm heroics and get into. The current problem is ICC doesn't have any hard modes yet, so the cutting edge stuff is being pugged.

I do see the double edge sword though about raid gear progression, but I still actually liked it better the old way. If you were just trying to gear up your buddy who had been overseas, you can pretty easily bring 1 lousy geared person along and let them soak up the rots. I'd probably prefer that to the current pugathon style raiding wow has. There doesn't really seem to be much benefit to not pugging anymore. Only exception being you get to raid with friends,... but you can pug raid with the same friends each week so...

I actually think EQs system was a little better. There was around 3 full sets of expansion raids around in the progression ladder at any one time. When a new expansion came out, the quests would offer gear that was as good as raid gear from 3 expansion packs ago. This way guilds were a bit more spread out on the ladder, and nobody could really pug. Recruiting was much easier. Bosses were more exciting becuause there was always a ladder and some kind of 'competition' with another guild as to where you were on that ladder. In WotLK, all guilds are pretty much at the top. Yay. Even if you started a brand new guild with all heroic badge loot people, you could be 7/12 within a week. lol At the top of progression. That's bad design IMO.

I'd probably be more happy with a middle ground. Badge loot being T8 at this point would be cool. ToC and ICC together would be progression. That's a pretty shallow ladder, but at least it's a ladder. Right now you can get ilvl 264 T10 pieces without ever stepping foot into a raid. IMO that sucks.

I hate pugs and I hate pugging people into my raid. lol

Proletaria
01-18-2010, 10:21 PM
Oh i can 100% agree with you the whole staggering wings, limiting attempts, and all the rest of that content-streching nonsense they've done is a load for normal mode. I guess I could see it on heroic (mostly because i'm used to it from togc), but on normal mode it's just lazy and you're right, when normal mode is end-game pugs have even more allure than usual (but, chances are the puggers who want real loot and raid experience will start to hop into guilds near hardmode time).

I think you have above-average animosity for pugs. I'm not a huge fan of them myself, but i'm not sure what experience you had that makes ya hate them that much. I rather enjoy the fact that on a large server like mine, I can have a well-geared alt, a day off of work, and a pretty good chance to clear some content in a pug. It's usually frustating, and sometimes it's down-right demoralizing (seeing rare items get ninja'd a good deal is lame), but for the most part it's a relatively painless way to let people raid on their own terms.

I really don't know if the current raid paradigm (hardmodes, lockout attempts, etc.) is vastly superior on all fronts, but i will say that it seems to get and keep more players interested in raiding and I think that is a big plus. Even the best guilds need to recruit often to make sure things run smoothly. Having the normal mode content relatively pug friendly makes finding potential applicants much easier than it used to be.

Ryoku
01-19-2010, 05:32 AM
Here my 2 cents on all of this pug critizisme.
It seems that I am both lucky and unlucky on my server:
1. Ninja looting does not go very well you can be sure as hell that 5 minutes later (exagorating a little) you will have a game master talking to you if you ninja looted. He will not only talk to you but if you are in a guild also to your guild master. So this generally helps with that problem, because people just don't accept it (i see tat as a very good point)
2. The overall progression on our server is quite low (just got last week our server first observed 25 man (not our guild)) So even if you are in a "progression guild" for the server you are not very far generally. Which means also that pugging is quite problamatic. Take a TOC 25 man run: if you are lucky and get a very very good pug you will get passed the twins, but don't even hope to get past Anub'arak, most guilds are still having problems downing her in 25 mans. TOGC 25 man was never finished on hte server.

If you don't like pugs fine, don't do any, but let people who otherwise wouldn't stand a chance to see the content have their go at it. ( i know same old same old). One last thing (a good thing about our server again) 90% of the people never heard of GS, so all you will see in pug announcements will be min 3k dps or something simular.

Maybe for your next pug try to use something like elitist group, and if you get pissed, and want that this pugging stops. Imagine one of your best friends on a server where that would be the only way for him to see content (maybe that helps to calm you down). Or just think that you missed all the guild runs, and really want those 5 emblems of frost.

P.s. sorry for the wall of text

Njordus
01-19-2010, 06:17 AM
An interesting conversation popped up. Tues/thurs/sunday = raid nights. Tues we get up to petricide and 10-12 people had to sit. Is it fair or better for the guild to make them save their ID for the 10 attempts on 1 boss? Or is it better to not do petricide to let them pug the instance and get more badges/chance at gear?

This depends on if you are a progression guild or a social/farming guild. Progression guild raiders are all about the guild progress, and if saving their ID for 10 attempts on 1 boss is best for the guild progress, they do it.

If you are a farming/social guild, then you should let them go pug and get their gear so they can.... oh wait, they won't ever do heroics, so their gear doesn't really matter. =p

nethervoid
01-19-2010, 08:16 AM
If you don't like pugs fine, don't do any, but let people who otherwise wouldn't stand a chance to see the content have their go at it. ( i know same old same old). One last thing (a good thing about our server again) 90% of the people never heard of GS, so all you will see in pug announcements will be min 3k dps or something simular.

Maybe for your next pug try to use something like elitist group, and if you get pissed, and want that this pugging stops. Imagine one of your best friends on a server where that would be the only way for him to see content (maybe that helps to calm you down). Or just think that you missed all the guild runs, and really want those 5 emblems of frost.

P.s. sorry for the wall of text

To see the content, join a raid guild. That's been my point the whole time. As more people don't join raid guilds because they can pug, it makes recruiting people to have a set team of people that much harder to come by. Here are the main reasons I don't like pugs or to pug:

1. Pugging takes away from the 'group' mentality - It's way too annonymous for my tastes - Far too unsocial

2. I hate waiting any time at all to get a pugger - If I had a full roster, we would just form up and take off

3. I hate getting someone (class / skill / etc) totally different each week - Not a huge deal on normals, but hard modes? Ouch.

Meldwyn
01-19-2010, 09:41 AM
Actually, in my limited experience with raiding and plugging in non-guildies (pugs), I have found it to be a great recruiting tool.

Once we are assembled and ready to start a raid I have one of my officers post some simple rules for the raid before we get started (short version = no foul language in chat or vent will be tolerated. PERIOD. No blaming others, we succeed or fail as a team. PERIOD. and let's remember its only a game, have some fun!). You wouldn't believe all the positive comments and whispers I receive after a pugged raid from folks interested in being a part of our team moving forward. Who cares what you are raiding, many times its about the environment that is created that attracts and keeps great people in your guild (notice its not about skill, that will get better in time as they raid, its about the person behind the toon).

My $.02

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 10:13 AM
I'm not sure what puggable raids have to do with the OP's situation, or with killing their progression. Like others have said, you just have waaaay too many people on your active roster if you're sitting so many.


Ninja looting does not go very well you can be sure as hell that 5 minutes later (exagorating a little) you will have a game master talking to you if you ninja looted. He will not only talk to you but if you are in a guild also to your guild master. So this generally helps with that problem, because people just don't accept it (i see tat as a very good point)

That might be really comforting to tell yourself when someone takes something you wanted, but the reality is that GM's don't give a crap about ninja looting, unless their policy has VERY recently changed. Historically they've just said, "Sorry, don't run with a master looter you don't trust."

They especially shouldn't be talking to any guild leaders if they have an issue with someone, because GM's aren't supposed to discuss account actions with ANYONE else, and it's certainly not their job to get involved in guild politics and getting people gkicked. If a GM has done this that you're aware of, it may be enough of an issue that it should be reported.

nethervoid
01-19-2010, 12:46 PM
Actually, in my limited experience with raiding and plugging in non-guildies (pugs), I have found it to be a great recruiting tool.

Agree it used to be pretty useful (even back in EQ), but on my server there are so many pugs, there's not a great deal of incentive to join a guild. Mostly because most people pugging are:

1. On an alt
2. Don't want to commit to a raid schedule
3. Don't want to leave their family guild (why should they if they can pug raid everything?)

IMO the current lack of a progression ladder is really hurting recruitment on the heavier pop servers. Although the other half of my guild's problem is that we only do 10m, and for some reason I can't fathom, almost everyone wants to do 25s. 25 is just more headache in my book. Content is virtually the same.

Anyway mainly I'm just venting some steam at how Bliz has, IMO, gone too far with how casual this game is. Everything is open to casual play now, which makes it really hard to have a 'family raid' guild anymore. Guild styles are just a lot more polarized now I guess.

Proletaria
01-19-2010, 01:29 PM
Anyway mainly I'm just venting some steam at how Bliz has, IMO, gone too far with how casual this game is. Everything is open to casual play now, which makes it really hard to have a 'family raid' guild anymore. Guild styles are just a lot more polarized now I guess.

Contradictory in my opinion. Family guilds are gaining popularity these days. No longer do they get stuck on content because even the 1-night a week guilds can clear lots in normal mode. If your guild really is about 'family' or some sort of social bond, you shouldn't be loosing members because there is content to pug. They should be staying or leaving based on your family atmosphere (which is presumably what got them into your guild).

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 02:57 PM
Yeah, it's hard to complain about things being more casual-friendly breaking up a "family" guild. That's kind of odd.

Eravian
01-20-2010, 09:19 AM
As someone in a casual raiding guild, the biggest problem that we're having is that we haven't been able to run 25-mans the last few weeks because people keep pugging them and get saved. Part of the problem with making it more puggable is that why go learn the fight with your guild and face wiping when you can pug it, not have to worry about dkp, loot council, etc. and just /roll on everything?

It's one thing if someone can't make that raid time, it's another if you can't do a run because six people are running that instance right now in a pug. Do you kick them from the guild? If you do that, is it fair to call yourself a casual raiding guild? That's a problem I've seen cropping up in places.

Bovinity
01-20-2010, 09:28 AM
That's really an issue with members then. You can't blame anything in the system for people having poor attitudes toward their guild. =(

Bashal
01-20-2010, 10:52 AM
I do lament the fact that every normal mode encounter is by-design supposed to be pug content

I dont know if blizzard ever stated that outright or not. Even if they have... the only successful PuGs I have seen are ones comprised of people from various organized raiding guilds. They aren't scrubs, they just haven't worked together before (or much). And they are probably only as good as they are because they are in a guild that actively raids.

They are in the pug usually on an alt, or their main if their guild doesn't run the content anymore, or they couldn't get into their group that week for whatever reason.

Most pugs, what I think of as real pugs, don't get very far at all.

squats
01-20-2010, 10:59 AM
Festergut, rotface, putricide, and blood queen are not pug friendly at all.

Bovinity
01-20-2010, 01:18 PM
Heck, Stinky and Precious aren't pug friendly. ;)

Proletaria
01-20-2010, 09:55 PM
Festergut, rotface, putricide, and blood queen are not pug friendly at all.

I agree, but in time they will be, and blue posts have indicated as much.

I have actually PuG'd rotface the last two weeks on one of my tanking alts (*cough* paladin), though festergut indeed blocks most pugs, and I wouldnt dream of going to queen, putri, or even the princes with a pug from anything less than a collection of raiding guilds.

They've done a fairly good job thus-far of tuning ICC (25man at least, 10 seems rife with encounters I would hate to do in 10man gear) for normal mode. Things are not "faceroll" after the initial wing, and that is the way it will probably stay until they release the first round of nerfs.

Ryoku
01-21-2010, 12:47 AM
That might be really comforting to tell yourself when someone takes something you wanted, but the reality is that GM's don't give a crap about ninja looting, unless their policy has VERY recently changed. Historically they've just said, "Sorry, don't run with a master looter you don't trust."

They especially shouldn't be talking to any guild leaders if they have an issue with someone, because GM's aren't supposed to discuss account actions with ANYONE else, and it's certainly not their job to get involved in guild politics and getting people gkicked. If a GM has done this that you're aware of, it may be enough of an issue that it should be reported.

Well actually I know it does happen because I saw it happen for a guildy. He made a mistake with the loot (sincere mistake, was his first time loot master). So the GM spoke to him, and to our guildleader, and wanted to find out if the guildy is ok, and if there had been other problems of this kind with him. I think its good, because if you are innocent this can help you; on the otherhand if you are guilty your guild is warned, it it is always nice to know if you got a ninja in your guild for several reasons.

Mačl
01-21-2010, 02:32 AM
Festergut is quite obviously a healer test.
Rotface is not so obviously a DPS test. I heard one clown suggest that the healers need to up their game. Soft enrage and still 2000k life left on the boss. Right.

I can't see any PUG down these two until they are geared up the wazoo from the previous bosses. Heck, even Saurfang/25 has been a major problem for PUGs.

The current design and the shortcuts in itemization to the top notch raids are brilliant. I was one of the happy few to even clear two wings in original Naxx(we never even tried the Heigan dance). This is major content that is not seen by most of the playe base. What were Blizz's figures? Only 3% of their players where succesful in Naxx/40? Only a couple of hundred even saw Kel? So how could that be good design?

Even with your badge loot you will have to pug some ToC because you can't get everything from the new 5man instances. And the small T9 doesn't quite cut the mustard. That's 20 iLvLs beneath ICC/10. Even then you'd still have some iLvL 213/219/226 stuff you simply can't replace. If you are geared like that Festergut and Rotface WILL be then end of the line. That's true for the tanks, that's true for the healers and(not so obviously) that's true for DPS. ATM you simply can't carry anybody thru these fights.

Your benching policy is horrid. Expect a major walkout anytime they will find an alternative. And it's always the best players who find a new raid first. It's better to pug the last spots, postpone the raid or 22man the trivial stuff than overrecruiting and benching that many people.

nethervoid
01-21-2010, 12:01 PM
Contradictory in my opinion. Family guilds are gaining popularity these days. No longer do they get stuck on content because even the 1-night a week guilds can clear lots in normal mode. If your guild really is about 'family' or some sort of social bond, you shouldn't be loosing members because there is content to pug. They should be staying or leaving based on your family atmosphere (which is presumably what got them into your guild).

We lost a guy to the new Star Trek game. We lost another guy to RL (GF said quit wow or me). Our members love our guild and our pugs love pugging with us. They crack jokes with us etc and always say they love pugging with us cause we're so cool and also great raiders. Problem is getting NEW recruits. Most people either want 25 man content, or they don't want to leave their family guilds that don't have a raid schedule. Our guild is a raiding 10m guild (family cause it's small and personality is key for us).

Proletaria
01-21-2010, 05:15 PM
We lost a guy to the new Star Trek game. We lost another guy to RL (GF said quit wow or me). Our members love our guild and our pugs love pugging with us. They crack jokes with us etc and always say they love pugging with us cause we're so cool and also great raiders. Problem is getting NEW recruits. Most people either want 25 man content, or they don't want to leave their family guilds that don't have a raid schedule. Our guild is a raiding 10m guild (family cause it's small and personality is key for us).

We've lost players to RL and other (crappy) games too. But, your recruitment process isn't being hindered by pugs. You say yourself "pugs like to run with us." If you aren't using that to shmooze people into the guild, then you're lacking a confident and capable recruitment officer (every guild needs one of these, i love mine to death).

Not everyone wants or has what it takes time-wise to be in a more serious 25man guild. But your family isn't any diffirent from any other family guild out there. People aren't leaving their families because they can pug, but they aren't leaving yours either. You think that your small tight-knit family is important. None of that should have anything to do with your recruitment except how you screen applicants.

Point is: things are good for you right now. Capitolize on the pugs who enjoy running with you, talk them up, and see if you can get a few more friendly faces on your regular roster.

nethervoid
01-22-2010, 10:27 AM
Point is: things are good for you right now. Capitolize on the pugs who enjoy running with you, talk them up, and see if you can get a few more friendly faces on your regular roster.

I think you aren't getting it. We have done this, without poaching too hard. But the reality is why would they leave their guild? They pug with us almost every week. What would be the incentive for them to leave their family, non-raid guilds? Similarly, if someone can find a pug ICC raid and clear it every week, what incentive do they have to leave their family, non-raid guild? So they can be on a schedule? Wow that sounds like a de-incentive.

IMO the balance has swayed too far into casual, to the point it is actually a real detriment to raiding guilds. I've put the sound reasoning out there. The incentive is just not there anymore to join a casual raid guild. Especially so for 10m, which is so much easier to pug. If you're a HC 25m guild, you probably haven't felt any differences. But the guild in the middle of the spectrum is feeling it.

And I know we aren't alone, cause I've talked to at least two other guild leaders in similar situations as we, except they have it a bit easier because they're gunning for 25m content when they have the numbers. Once they start doing 25s, they won't feel this pinch like our guild does.

To that other guy... So what that only 3% of people saw original Kel. It's like less than 1% of the content. Boo hoo?

Theotherone
01-22-2010, 10:58 AM
(GF said quit wow or me

Oh, man, after 23 years of marriage, I wish my wife would make it that easy for me.:D

Bashal
01-22-2010, 11:11 AM
To that other guy... So what that only 3% of people saw original Kel. It's like less than 1% of the content. Boo hoo?

From the perspective of someone who is in a guild that can clear all the content regardless of difficulty, knowing you are part of that small x% that even got to see it is pretty cool.

From the perspective of the developers, they put in all this time and effort into designing these really cool sets of encounters, worked on the maps and the look and feel, perhaps made some effort to tie in boss emotes into some overall story arch, etc., etc., and then..... barely anyone saw it. Disappointing.

So yes, in part it's Blizzard trying to give everyone their "money's worth", but at the same time trying not to nerf everything so hard that the top raiders feel like everything has been horridly dumbed down (enter hard modes). But it's also Blizzard trying to justify the time and expense involved in making the stuff in the first place.

You can argue that they got the balance wrong. But I find it hard to argue with the sentiment.

nethervoid
01-22-2010, 12:47 PM
You can argue that they got the balance wrong. But I find it hard to argue with the sentiment.

Agree.