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View Full Version : Rotface Kiting, what's the best class? Tank or dps?



orcstar
01-12-2010, 03:07 AM
Having done the rotface encounter I was wondering.

What's the best class to kite the blobs?
I was in a raid twice where we did it with a paladin and it worked in both 10 and 25.
But on 10 we tried to shoot for the achievement, which requires a lot more and longer kiting. At some point we had trouble with the paladin losing aggro due to healing threat. We did quite a few tries and then decided to just kill him.

But this experience had me thinking: is a tank really the best class to kite on this fight?

Tanks
Pros: survivability.
Cons: limited ability to build threat on ranged mobs.(depending on class)
Ranged Dps
Pros: able to build threat on ranged mobs easily.
Cons: less survivability.

Let's say, the kiting tank has a good dps dualspec and you could basically choose anyone from your raid, which one would you choose?

My list would be like this:
#1 Tank DK, quite a few abilities to keep ranged threat and with dnd it's easy to put an aoe in front or under a blob to keep aggro.
#2 DPS DK, same as above, maybe more threat but less surviveable.
#3 A hunter, very easy to keep ranged threat and if skilled even able to contribute dps to the boss while kiting. With disengage on a shortcooldown easy to get even extra range on the blobs or get out of the slime pool
#4 A mage? Can contribute less dps then a hunter when kiting but can keep easy aggro on the mobs with instante spell. Blink on a short CD helps a lot here.

(btw if they're kiting around the raid, well timed blessings of freedom will help all tanks kiting.)

Megatwan
01-12-2010, 03:14 AM
i do this as a prot pally and it works very well.

-avengers shield/exorcism when they are up (obviously get distance for the later
-drop a conc in its path if ur froggy but its excessive imo and a mana hog
-2 ranged taunts in the event you get 2 big ooze
-pursuit of justice=u shouldnt get hit
-freedom works on the flood (i think)
-you can DG when you see a couple little ones out or ppl caught in slime
-you can hand of sac when ^^
-you can assist/control dispells when needed (if ur not busy, so not really at the end although you shouldnt have to then)

and obviously you can take a hit or 2 with cds up if crap hits the fan and a dps cant

swelt
01-12-2010, 03:52 AM
Thoughts:
- I'm not sure the distinction between DKs is in tank vs dps, as much as frost vs unholy vs blood (probably in that order in terms of ranged threat capability? Howling blast for the frost dk, potent diseases from the unholy, weakest would be blood?). DKs can also use chains of ice to good effect in herding the little slimes together.
- Paladins have the ability to control the cleansing and to give themselves hand of freedom when they need it. That seems pretty useful.
- DPS of any sort are going to be instagibbed if they get hit by the big ooze. They would need to be pretty good at kiting.

orcstar
01-12-2010, 04:33 AM
- DPS of any sort are going to be instagibbed if they get hit by the big ooze. They would need to be pretty good at kiting.When we were trying the achievement at some point we had both our paladin tank and a hunter Kiting Oozes, the hunter didn't have much problems keeping range.

Hive
01-12-2010, 04:55 AM
Long time lurker, first time poster :)

In my personal experience, Warriors and Druids are really poor choices of OT for this fight.

Fantheria
01-12-2010, 05:09 AM
As a druid, I can tell you that kiting on this fight sucks a lot.

swelt
01-12-2010, 05:26 AM
When we were trying the achievement at some point we had both our paladin tank and a hunter Kiting Oozes, the hunter didn't have much problems keeping range.

I'm not saying they couldn't do it, just that if they happened to lag, or had to stray a little close to the big ooze for any reason, it could easily be game over (although deterrence or pvp gear might be enough to save them).

markv
01-12-2010, 06:42 AM
Honestly with the changes to taunt DR as a warrior it's a total joke to kite. Run, taunt, range weapon. Rinse and repeat. Once a minute you get a bonus with a heroic throw, but taunt + 300dmg from a range weapon is enough to keep threat off of the healers.

I just have a paladin healing me for it so when I get to the big slime pools I can just have them freedom me and I'll run through it and let the blob take its time and throw a few things at it while it's coming at me.

orcstar
01-12-2010, 06:56 AM
Honestly with the changes to taunt DR as a warrior it's a total joke to kite. Run, taunt, range weapon. Rinse and repeat. Once a minute you get a bonus with a heroic throw, but taunt + 300dmg from a range weapon is enough to keep threat off of the healers.

I just have a paladin healing me for it so when I get to the big slime pools I can just have them freedom me and I'll run through it and let the blob take its time and throw a few things at it while it's coming at me.
I'm not saying warriors can't do it. I'm just looking into who can do it best.

Fledern
01-12-2010, 07:03 AM
Honestly with the changes to taunt DR as a warrior it's a total joke to kite. Run, taunt, range weapon. Rinse and repeat. Once a minute you get a bonus with a heroic throw, but taunt + 300dmg from a range weapon is enough to keep threat off of the healers.


That definitely wasnt the case for me. Even with vigilance-refreshed taunts, the healers pull off aggro too easily. the 1-min cooldown HT is woefully inadequate. We ended up putting our unholy dps dk on the job & me on the boss, it went fine after that

Emi
01-12-2010, 07:17 AM
Its extremely easy to kite it as a DK. Once a big ooze forms just taunt, drop d&D and run.
For the next small slimes chains of ice provides an excellent way for a quicker slime merge which means the person that was infected can get back to doing his/hers job with the minimum amount of time lost.

Also, if you feel your going to pass a bit too close to the center due to a large pool from the pipes, just ask a paladin for freedom and you can run through it easy since its damage is negligable and even then you have AMS if you get worried :D

orcstar
01-12-2010, 07:22 AM
That definitely wasnt the case for me. Even with vigilance-refreshed taunts, the healers pull off aggro too easily. the 1-min cooldown HT is woefully inadequate. We ended up putting our unholy dps dk on the job & me on the boss, it went fine after thatThe difference with healing aggro troubles between 25 and 10 can be big. Our kiteb Paladin in 25 had no troubles at all with healing threat and our kite pala in 10 men did have some troubles.

Deque
01-12-2010, 07:23 AM
It's pretty trivial as a Death Knight Frost tank. I'll sometimes drop Death and Decay when the two small oozes are dancing around each other or I'll just use Howling Blast. While I'm kiting him around, I'll Howling Blast every so often to get a threat lead and then I just spend most of my time just using Chain of Ice on the small oozes to get them to merge. Chains of Ice is so incredibly useful when I get the Mutated Infection because I was having difficulties getting my Small Ooze to merge with the Big Ooze without risking getting hit by the Big Ooze.

Thulldar
01-12-2010, 07:58 AM
I kited as a prot warrior last night on 10. I had problems with healers pulling aggro unless I got misdirects from the hunter. I did notice, however, that you can pretty consistently hit the big slime with shockwave without getting into melee range if you're careful. That probably would enable a prot warrior to do this job without misdirects.

We also tried just having the hunter do it, but he kept getting melee'd. I think that was just him not playing at his best though, or trying to DPS the boss too much. A hunter or ranged DPS should be able to do this kiting job. The biggest problem is they are more likely to die from random damage effects (slime spray, disease dot while in a slime pool, taking ticks of the big slime aoe, etc). To a tank with 50k HP, that just won't happen.

I think the ideal kiter might actually be a ranged DPS in stamina gear, e.g. a warlock that used to soak orbs on the Twin Valkyr fight in ToC heroic.

Bashal
01-12-2010, 08:09 AM
What about just popping a cooldown and smacking the slime for a little bit before running off, if the kiting tank don't have good ranged options? That should build up some decent aggro.

kaehl
01-12-2010, 09:27 AM
What about just popping a cooldown and smacking the slime for a little bit before running off, if the kiting tank don't have good ranged options? That should build up some decent aggro.

They hit for ~30k on plate in addition to the AOE and any slime you may be in. I don't see this being viable as I got just about instagibbed with shield wall up a few times during our pulls.

As a warrior this sucks in 10 man, but definitely do-able. I kept vigilance on our tank and made sure Heroic Throw was up for every big ooze until the diseases started spawning quickly. I was also able to shockwave without getting melee'd which added sufficient threat. The biggest problem comes near the end naturally and that was where my pally had a MUCH easier time than the warrior.

Akeber
01-12-2010, 10:08 AM
What about just popping a cooldown and smacking the slime for a little bit before running off, if the kiting tank don't have good ranged options? That should build up some decent aggro.

This is what tanks that have problems keeping aggro from range should do. The big ooze hits harder with every slime it consumes. When it is freshly formed it hits for a lot less and when it's up to three or four. Also, it becomes targetable and attackable a second or two before it becomes "active". Use this time to pop a CD (yours or an outside one) and build as much threat as possible before the CD wears off or the third spawn is consumed, whichever comes first.

Akeber
01-12-2010, 10:24 AM
They hit for ~30k on plate in addition to the AOE and any slime you may be in.

A freshly spawned big ooze hit me for 16K, no CDs, on ten man. I don't have the log for 25 uploaded to see, but it's not going to be double. Maybe 20-25K. That's 13-14K worst case per hit on 25 man with a CD, and a mere 9K on 10. Shouldn't be a problem if your healers are aware that it's going to happen.

kaehl
01-12-2010, 10:31 AM
I'll check my logs but I could have sworn I saw hits ranging from 25-30k the couple times I got too close.

Edit: Looks like I took two hits @ ~40k each from melee in 25 normal. Divine Protection was not up.

Edit2: The hits were 1.3s apart-


[22:28:13.592] Big Ooze (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/details/152/?s=9062&e=9378) hits Kaehl (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/details/18/?s=9062&e=9378) 39221 (A: 4312)
[22:28:14.060] Little Ooze (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/details/150/?s=9062&e=9378) Weak Radiating Ooze (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/spell/71210/?s=9062&e=9378) Kaehl (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/details/18/?s=9062&e=9378) 2075 (A: 518, R: 347)
[22:28:14.859] Big Ooze (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/details/152/?s=9062&e=9378) hits Kaehl (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/494zd0x91q6ezo4t/details/18/?s=9062&e=9378) 17460 (O: 23829) (more) (javascript:showDeathLog(148))

Bashal
01-12-2010, 10:33 AM
I'll check my logs but I could have sworn I saw hits ranging from 25-30k the couple times I got too close.

From what others have said, if that was later in the fight, after the large slime had consumed more small ones, then yeah, it could probably hit that hard.

But I was speaking of just as the big ooze forms, pop a cd (or two) and smack it around a bit before kiting.

kaehl
01-12-2010, 10:43 AM
Indeed, this was near the end of the fight when things were getting out of control as diseases were going out very rapidly. Did not realize they grew stronger as they consumed oozes; learn something new every day eh?

atcq
01-12-2010, 10:53 AM
Confirmed. I was melee'd for 40K+ by the big ooze.

Plus, as someone else pointed out, healing aggro in 10-man is much more noticeable than in 25. Which can be a real problem for a warrior OT with limited range threat moves.

Rely on your raid members for tricks/MDs. If none exist, employ shockwave & heroic throw at range, and apply cooldowns for melee threat moves.

SNB
01-12-2010, 10:08 PM
I kited them as a prot warrior, what I did, when the big ooze spawns I shockwave them, quickly hit them with a shield slam and start kiting (I usually popped a CD here to be safe, but I didn't really get hit).
Then I use heroic throw and after that I actually just use normal throw (or shoot!) which hold aggro fine even if I didnt get that slam off.

If you put Vigilance on the on the MT somewhere halfway through the unlimited taunting will be great towards the end of the fight when it gets a bit hectic :>

agranyoch
01-13-2010, 03:02 AM
From what others have said, if that was later in the fight, after the large slime had consumed more small ones, then yeah, it could probably hit that hard.

But I was speaking of just as the big ooze forms, pop a cd (or two) and smack it around a bit before kiting.
Yes, it's very doable to smack the freshly spawned Big Ooze around a bit (with a large trout?) before you start kiting it. If you watch Splug's 10-man DK kiter PoV video, you can see that fresh Big Ooze was meleeing Splug for about 8-9k (I'm not sure whether he had cooldowns up at that point, though) so it shouldn't be ANY problem whatsoever to build some threat before 3rd Mutated Injection goes out. Of course, you need focused heals anyway as on top of the melee swings, the kiter is going to get few ticks of the aura.

If you have a hunter (or rogue) it is still very helpful if they unload a full 4 seconds worth of Misdirected threat to the kiter to make things go smoother.

My casual guild just downed Rotface-10 for the first time and we had a DK kiting the slimes but next time I'm (protection warrior) going to give it a whirl. :)

Meouch
01-13-2010, 06:24 AM
I would only agree with the "dps kiting" if 1 tank had a respectable dps spec/set. I'm sure most range ability classes could see it through, if they were good enough. My first thought was an affli lock...dots ftw.

But as I'm sure most groups already know, OT kiting works perfectly fine. We had warr on boss, paly on adds. Smooth.

Leggo
01-13-2010, 07:40 AM
We had a DK tank kiting for us on our 25 man kill. He did great but I (a hunter) tried to keep an eye on him and had him as my focus misdirect target. I also had a targeting macro to target Big Ooze.

Basically, I let him handle the whole thing on his own, but if something started to get out of hand I would start throwing misdirects and kiting stray targets while waiting for him to pull them off me.

One thing to keep in mind though, a dps kiter has no room for mistakes. If you get hit, you will die. I had one of them hit me for 50k+.

Nevertheless, I was able to pick up kiting when the DK died for some reason. He was battle rezzed and resumed the kiting on his own. Then towards the end when things started going crazy I went back out to help with kiting again throwing misdirects and distracting shotting Big Ooze off raid members until he could taunt them into the main Big Ooze.

Stymie
01-13-2010, 08:30 AM
I haven't had any issues holding aggro on these as a prot warrior. As the little oozes merge to a big ooze, there will be a 1-2 second delay before it melees. As it's merging I pop shield block, hit it with a shield slam the second it merges, and usually try to get in a heroic strike + devastate on the second GCD, but that's as I'm running out. Toss a heroic throw once you're safely at range, stop and toss your throwing weapon from time to time just for kicks, and vigilance the highest threat healer (in our case, it was a resto druid). You can also land TCs / Shockwave without getting hit, but due to the size of the Big Ooze's hit box, it can be a little risky (and usually just not needed).

Kiting as a prot warrior was fairly easy, since if you do get in a pinch, you can charge the boss, or intervene someone in melee.

Roana
01-14-2010, 08:15 AM
Plus, as someone else pointed out, healing aggro in 10-man is much more noticeable than in 25. Which can be a real problem for a warrior OT with limited range threat moves.

It's not only a problem for a warrior. I was giving both a druid and a DK heart attacks with my healing threat and had to use Wind Shear frequently to get it under control (we haven't seen the value of moving out of the Slime Spray, as it is easily healed through, and moving just reduces DPS, but as a result, I rack up a ton of healing threat).

Muffin Man
01-14-2010, 03:53 PM
Is there something about Shamans? When we had a resto shaman one try he had a ton of healing aggro and kept pulling the big ooze. He's not one of our normal healers, we typically run priest/pally/druid, and none of them have aggro issues.

Liquidska
01-14-2010, 04:07 PM
Shammies generally do not spec in to the decreased healing threat, unlike druids and priests, there is better stuff to pick up on the way.

Having said that.... it's still your tanks fault if healer gets aggro.

Roana
01-14-2010, 07:47 PM
Is there something about Shamans? When we had a resto shaman one try he had a ton of healing aggro and kept pulling the big ooze. He's not one of our normal healers, we typically run priest/pally/druid, and none of them have aggro issues.

It's just that the damage patterns on Rotface are very well matched to shaman healing (especially when you heal through Slime Spray rather than running out), so there's a good chance that an aggressively healing shaman will run away on the healing meters.


Shammies generally do not spec in to the decreased healing threat, unlike druids and priests, there is better stuff to pick up on the way.

Threat reduction talents are generally considered a waste for priests, too, since that usually means you have to skip Improved Inner Fire (which is bonus spell power). However, PW:S has reduced threat, and Prayer of Mending (which makes up a huge chunk of Holy Priest healing) has no threat. Shamans get only Earth Shield as a threat-free ability.

It's normally a non-issue, except that kiting really handicaps threat generation for tanks.

Sinister6
01-15-2010, 06:55 AM
We was having a warrior tank before. no luck.
this week we are having a hunter to kite seems easier, but occationally the big oz will run thru the boss, everyone should beware and duck..

Taxxes
01-15-2010, 08:29 AM
Perhaps I'm biased because i do in fact play a Blood DK tank, but Rotface seems tailor-made for us to kite.
I literally cannot imagine while you would feel obliged to use a DPS. A tank's overall durability while running through ooze pools, the ability to take a shot or two from a 1/2 charged Big Slime, and simple taunt mechanics to pull inadvertently-spawned Big Slimes out of the raid before they kill someone all argue VERY strongly for using an OT.

I have kited in both 10 and 25man versions, and after talking to various friends from other guilds as they progress in the Plagueworks, learned that my raid has been spoiled indeed. The true measure of if you're going to down this boss or not is how the raid is able to handle the drastically increased spawn rate of the small slimes late in the fight, and for that there's nothing i can think of as utilitarian as a DK. A 2nd hysteria for your DPS at that phase coupled with DnD patches for ease of dump and recovery of any slimes that might have otherwise wiped the raid while the kiter takes the 'primary' Big Slime around just can't be beat.
Obviously, if your dps is all over a healthy 8k, you wont have issues or this will not become apparent, but if you've got a rather motley mix of 7.5k and 4.5-5k due to either bad luck or the grotesque lag that IS the plagueworks, you'll be entering in that stressful phase with disturbing regularity. You need a kiter that WILL stay up and WILL be able to gather Big Slimes at range with more than a simple taunt.

Googity
01-15-2010, 08:31 AM
I am usually the one assigned to kiting the oozes. As a paladin tank, it's pretty damn easy. Having two taunts/avengers shield/judging when possible keeps the oozes on me. Topped off with being able to cleanse the debuff off those that get it lets me control where and when the little ooze spawns. We got him down last week and one shot him last night.

Stuff does get hectic towards the end of the fight, I can't deny that, but when that does happen, the dps/heals need to assure their own survival to get him down, that's really all there is to it. More big oozes will more than likely spawn, just try and get them to merge with the one that's already up, and keep it as clean as possible.